Re: [kictanet] [Skunkworks] the long fibre lie...Regulatory Action limited.
MO, Alex, Ease up abit. Dont imagine I dont want affordable internet prices. Infact if you had time and googled my online contributions over the last 5years, you will realize I have been raising the red-flag about fiber vis a viz pricing. The other day I reloaded my Safcom modem with 1,000/= (300MB service). It all disappeared within 5days! Previously before SEACOM it would take longer (3weeks) to disappear because of the slower speeds. Better speeds encourage faster and broader browsing but it hurts (financially) and its not funny. I think our differences lie in the approach to having reduced prices. I chose the academic route because thats my background. Feel free to pursue your routes to reduced prices - but plse be cautious because the solution is NOT domiciled in ONE stakeholder. Its not with the Regulator, nor the techies, nor the activists, nor the Consumers, nor the Govt, nor the Media, etc. Instead I believe it is with ALL of the above. And it will be unfortunate to alienate any of them while pursuing reduced prices. walu. nb1: and thats why I had copied to what Alex calls my "home-tuff" (just ropping in other stakeholders). nb2: I also note and do appreciated your legal counterarguments but decline to respond as at now since I will cover that and other issues during the upcoming ICT conference at SU (I think will be free to sambaza the paper thereafter for those interested). --- On Mon, 8/17/09, mike oketch <mikeoketch@gmail.com> wrote:
From: mike oketch <mikeoketch@gmail.com> Subject: Re: [Skunkworks] the long fibre lie...Regulatory Action limited. To: "Skunkworks forum" <skunkworks@lists.my.co.ke> Date: Monday, August 17, 2009, 10:13 AM Again Safaricom CEO who is also heads the board of TEAMS says that TEAMS benefits could not be realised because onward connection with Europe has not been fully discussed. How can you initiate a flight from Kenya to Nigeria without getting the landing rights in Nigeria and flight clearance for CAR, DRC, Sudan and all the countries you are going to overfly?
Cheap Cheap Cheap and we wont be duped. I have seen people in this list who support the crooked CEOs just because they need favors for contracts and interviews for their educations research papers. Hypocrites they are.
Lets be realistic MO
On Mon, Aug 17, 2009 at 9:10 AM, mike oketch <mikeoketch@gmail.com> wrote:
Walubengo Yours are just too simplistic than the Alex's you are saying that are simplistic. The fact that kenya could not regulate Oil prices doesnt mean that Tanzania couldnt. The fact that SAT 3 operators couldnt be regulated cannont mean that the operators here cannot be regulated.
Stop all these fake comparisons. Prices must come down and we will face them at every conference and every Barcamp and will tell these unpatriotic who have pocketed our PS off. Your arguments just dont wash.
MO
On Mon, Aug 17, 2009 at 8:40 AM, Walubengo J <jwalu@yahoo.com> wrote:
Alex,
Your have rightly qaulified your solution - as simple. Indeed it is. Infact too simplistic to fly. The idea that the Regulator can reign in Operators who charge "high" internet rates cannot and will not work. Think about the in-famous SAT3 fiber link on the west coast of africa. Ask yourself why the Regulators in Nigeria, Ghana, Cameroon, Angola, S-Africa etc have never stepped in and revoked licensces of operators over the last 15yrs of high internet costs offered on the fiber...
The answers are very complex...I will actually be discussing these limitations and available interventions in some upcoming ICT conference at Strath University in Sept 09 and I dont want to pre-empt ;-)....
walu.
--- On Fri, 8/14/09, Gakuru Alex <alexgakuru.lists@gmail.com> wrote:
From: Gakuru Alex <alexgakuru.lists@gmail.com>
Subject: Re: [Skunkworks] Fwd: the long fibre lie... Ndemo should resign if internet prices do not drop as he promised!!
To: "Skunkworks forum" <skunkworks@lists.my.co.ke>
Date: Friday, August 14, 2009, 8:44 PM
On Fri, Aug 14, 2009 at 7:38 PM,
David Kiania | Asentric Consulting
Ltd<kianiadee@gmail.com>
wrote:
Set the precedence what's your solution? Am sure if
you did we'd have
heard it by now. This thread is a knee jerk reaction
to a bad internet
day, we all have one.
Simple, the entity under Ndemo's docket that grants these
cowboy
operators licenses puts it's foot down and warn that I may
revoke
licenses for operators that charge waaaay up in the sky not
just above
cost but ABOVE acceptable international pricing benchmarks.
They've
all the data they need. Imagine, for example, Safaricom on
the verge
of losing their license, price drops, drops, drops, drops,
drops, and
drops..... across board.
Would this be acceptable to you?
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Gentlemen, While you all have valid points, and dear Alex is inpatiently awaiting the fall of internet prices, it would do us good to take a step back and remember why TEAMS, because then you would realize that this is beyond any one party! The MOIT are the implementing agency, and you better believe that they will have to ensure that the prices fall given that Vision 2030 has ICT as one of the foundations for national transformation, and an economic pillar that is expected to help Kenya grow and maintain its GDP, as well as create some 75,000 jobs. I dont know about the private sector and SEACOM but I am willing to bet that TEAMS where the government has a say will take a lead in ensuring that internet prices do indeed fall. Kenya's not so secret goal is to give India a run for their money in the Call Center/BPO business, and I presume the same goes for South Africa. So with this in mind do you see the government not doing everything in their power to ensure that the prices do indeed fall to the extent that they can realize their dream? I definatley hope so, I am willing to bet that one Dr Ndemo is keeping his eye on the prize! So patience gentlemen, too much riding on the internet prices dropping for the government not to ensure that this does indeed become a reality. LK --- On Mon, 8/17/09, Walubengo J <jwalu@yahoo.com> wrote: From: Walubengo J <jwalu@yahoo.com> Subject: Re: [kictanet] [Skunkworks] the long fibre lie...Regulatory Action limited. To: lkimani@yahoo.com Cc: "KICTAnet KICTAnet" <kictanet@lists.kictanet.or.ke> Date: Monday, August 17, 2009, 6:10 AM MO, Alex, Ease up abit. Dont imagine I dont want affordable internet prices. Infact if you had time and googled my online contributions over the last 5years, you will realize I have been raising the red-flag about fiber vis a viz pricing. The other day I reloaded my Safcom modem with 1,000/= (300MB service). It all disappeared within 5days! Previously before SEACOM it would take longer (3weeks) to disappear because of the slower speeds. Better speeds encourage faster and broader browsing but it hurts (financially) and its not funny. I think our differences lie in the approach to having reduced prices. I chose the academic route because thats my background. Feel free to pursue your routes to reduced prices - but plse be cautious because the solution is NOT domiciled in ONE stakeholder. Its not with the Regulator, nor the techies, nor the activists, nor the Consumers, nor the Govt, nor the Media, etc.. Instead I believe it is with ALL of the above. And it will be unfortunate to alienate any of them while pursuing reduced prices. walu. nb1: and thats why I had copied to what Alex calls my "home-tuff" (just ropping in other stakeholders). nb2: I also note and do appreciated your legal counterarguments but decline to respond as at now since I will cover that and other issues during the upcoming ICT conference at SU (I think will be free to sambaza the paper thereafter for those interested). --- On Mon, 8/17/09, mike oketch <mikeoketch@gmail.com> wrote:
From: mike oketch <mikeoketch@gmail.com> Subject: Re: [Skunkworks] the long fibre lie...Regulatory Action limited. To: "Skunkworks forum" <skunkworks@lists.my.co.ke> Date: Monday, August 17, 2009, 10:13 AM Again Safaricom CEO who is also heads the board of TEAMS says that TEAMS benefits could not be realised because onward connection with Europe has not been fully discussed. How can you initiate a flight from Kenya to Nigeria without getting the landing rights in Nigeria and flight clearance for CAR, DRC, Sudan and all the countries you are going to overfly?
Cheap Cheap Cheap and we wont be duped. I have seen people in this list who support the crooked CEOs just because they need favors for contracts and interviews for their educations research papers. Hypocrites they are.
Lets be realistic MO
On Mon, Aug 17, 2009 at 9:10 AM, mike oketch <mikeoketch@gmail.com> wrote:
Walubengo Yours are just too simplistic than the Alex's you are saying that are simplistic. The fact that kenya could not regulate Oil prices doesnt mean that Tanzania couldnt. The fact that SAT 3 operators couldnt be regulated cannont mean that the operators here cannot be regulated.
Stop all these fake comparisons. Prices must come down and we will face them at every conference and every Barcamp and will tell these unpatriotic who have pocketed our PS off. Your arguments just dont wash.
MO
On Mon, Aug 17, 2009 at 8:40 AM, Walubengo J <jwalu@yahoo.com> wrote:
Alex,
Your have rightly qaulified your solution - as simple. Indeed it is. Infact too simplistic to fly. The idea that the Regulator can reign in Operators who charge "high" internet rates cannot and will not work. Think about the in-famous SAT3 fiber link on the west coast of africa. Ask yourself why the Regulators in Nigeria, Ghana, Cameroon, Angola, S-Africa etc have never stepped in and revoked licensces of operators over the last 15yrs of high internet costs offered on the fiber...
The answers are very complex...I will actually be discussing these limitations and available interventions in some upcoming ICT conference at Strath University in Sept 09 and I dont want to pre-empt ;-)....
walu.
--- On Fri, 8/14/09, Gakuru Alex <alexgakuru.lists@gmail.com> wrote:
From: Gakuru Alex <alexgakuru.lists@gmail.com>
Subject: Re: [Skunkworks] Fwd: the long fibre lie... Ndemo should resign if internet prices do not drop as he promised!!
To: "Skunkworks forum" <skunkworks@lists.my.co.ke>
Date: Friday, August 14, 2009, 8:44 PM
On Fri, Aug 14, 2009 at 7:38 PM,
David Kiania | Asentric Consulting
Ltd<kianiadee@gmail.com>
wrote:
Set the precedence what's your solution? Am sure if
you did we'd have
heard it by now. This thread is a knee jerk reaction
to a bad internet
day, we all have one.
Simple, the entity under Ndemo's docket that grants these
cowboy
operators licenses puts it's foot down and warn that I may
revoke
licenses for operators that charge waaaay up in the sky not
just above
cost but ABOVE acceptable international pricing benchmarks.
They've
all the data they need. Imagine, for example, Safaricom on
the verge
of losing their license, price drops, drops, drops, drops,
drops, and
drops..... across board.
Would this be acceptable to you?
_______________________________________________
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Walu, Placing this extract in the context of this discussion and your report on e-Governance we discussed 4 months ago...pg. 17....you forgot to include a fundamental issue. Bill Kagai doubted Brian's statement about the TEAMS project being “developmental” rather than “profit” oriented. In his rejoinder Brain Longwe said that there were a number of different ways to go about major infrastructure development: 1. For-Profit: Putting together a business case with a clear Return-On- Investment (ROI) benefit; looking out for funding, then building and deploying. Hopefully the market would respond well and the investors get their return (e.g. SEACOM). 2. Means-to-an-end: Determine the total costs for the project, approach the primary stakeholders; Oil companies in the case of oil pipelines, gas companies in the case of gas companies, operators and ISPs in the case of bandwidth; sell them the concept of delivering the commodity to themselves at cost (or as near to cost as possible); set up an "Operations and Maintenance" structure which levies the same parties; build and deploy; once the bandwidth is delivered it's a "free-for-all" in the marketplace - with ‘costs’ at a very low level, prices would eventually follow due to competition (e.g. TEAMs and EASSY) He said this is was one of the main reasons why projects such as TEAMs and EASSY have faced stiff opposition, criticism and outright attempted sabotage – because they have the potential to cut the feet out from under any similar commercial venture. In response Bill Kagai stated the following 1. For Profit - Seacom -This sounded like a brilliant business and economic model. 2. Means-to-an-end - TEAMS: Referencing his university economics this option appeared as the only economic model they did not teach at the University of Nairobi an institution established by an Act of Parliament. In summary, he felt that TEAMs had already waged a price war with no products in the market yet and was skeptical that TEAMs would indeed be cheaper than SEACOM in terms of costing internet service. .....You forgot to include that Brian promised to buy me kalovo should Seacom roll out faster and end up being cheaper than Teams. Haki yetu.. On Aug 17, 2009, at 1:10 PM, Walubengo J wrote:
MO, Alex,
Ease up abit. Dont imagine I dont want affordable internet prices. Infact if you had time and googled my online contributions over the last 5years, you will realize I have been raising the red-flag about fiber vis a viz pricing. The other day I reloaded my Safcom modem with 1,000/= (300MB service). It all disappeared within 5days! Previously before SEACOM it would take longer (3weeks) to disappear because of the slower speeds. Better speeds encourage faster and broader browsing but it hurts (financially) and its not funny.
I think our differences lie in the approach to having reduced prices. I chose the academic route because thats my background. Feel free to pursue your routes to reduced prices - but plse be cautious because the solution is NOT domiciled in ONE stakeholder. Its not with the Regulator, nor the techies, nor the activists, nor the Consumers, nor the Govt, nor the Media, etc. Instead I believe it is with ALL of the above. And it will be unfortunate to alienate any of them while pursuing reduced prices.
walu. nb1: and thats why I had copied to what Alex calls my "home- tuff" (just ropping in other stakeholders). nb2: I also note and do appreciated your legal counterarguments but decline to respond as at now since I will cover that and other issues during the upcoming ICT conference at SU (I think will be free to sambaza the paper thereafter for those interested).
--- On Mon, 8/17/09, mike oketch <mikeoketch@gmail.com> wrote:
From: mike oketch <mikeoketch@gmail.com> Subject: Re: [Skunkworks] the long fibre lie...Regulatory Action limited. To: "Skunkworks forum" <skunkworks@lists.my.co.ke> Date: Monday, August 17, 2009, 10:13 AM Again Safaricom CEO who is also heads the board of TEAMS says that TEAMS benefits could not be realised because onward connection with Europe has not been fully discussed. How can you initiate a flight from Kenya to Nigeria without getting the landing rights in Nigeria and flight clearance for CAR, DRC, Sudan and all the countries you are going to overfly?
Cheap Cheap Cheap and we wont be duped. I have seen people in this list who support the crooked CEOs just because they need favors for contracts and interviews for their educations research papers. Hypocrites they are.
Lets be realistic MO
On Mon, Aug 17, 2009 at 9:10 AM, mike oketch <mikeoketch@gmail.com> wrote:
Walubengo Yours are just too simplistic than the Alex's you are saying that are simplistic. The fact that kenya could not regulate Oil prices doesnt mean that Tanzania couldnt. The fact that SAT 3 operators couldnt be regulated cannont mean that the operators here cannot be regulated.
Stop all these fake comparisons. Prices must come down and we will face them at every conference and every Barcamp and will tell these unpatriotic who have pocketed our PS off. Your arguments just dont wash.
MO
On Mon, Aug 17, 2009 at 8:40 AM, Walubengo J <jwalu@yahoo.com> wrote:
Alex,
Your have rightly qaulified your solution - as simple. Indeed it is. Infact too simplistic to fly. The idea that the Regulator can reign in Operators who charge "high" internet rates cannot and will not work. Think about the in-famous SAT3 fiber link on the west coast of africa. Ask yourself why the Regulators in Nigeria, Ghana, Cameroon, Angola, S-Africa etc have never stepped in and revoked licensces of operators over the last 15yrs of high internet costs offered on the fiber...
The answers are very complex...I will actually be discussing these limitations and available interventions in some upcoming ICT conference at Strath University in Sept 09 and I dont want to pre-empt ;-)....
walu.
--- On Fri, 8/14/09, Gakuru Alex <alexgakuru.lists@gmail.com> wrote:
From: Gakuru Alex <alexgakuru.lists@gmail.com>
Subject: Re: [Skunkworks] Fwd: the long fibre lie... Ndemo should resign if internet prices do not drop as he promised!!
To: "Skunkworks forum" <skunkworks@lists.my.co.ke>
Date: Friday, August 14, 2009, 8:44 PM
On Fri, Aug 14, 2009 at 7:38 PM,
David Kiania | Asentric Consulting
Ltd<kianiadee@gmail.com>
wrote:
Set the precedence what's your solution? Am sure if
you did we'd have
heard it by now. This thread is a knee jerk reaction
to a bad internet
day, we all have one.
Simple, the entity under Ndemo's docket that grants these
cowboy
operators licenses puts it's foot down and warn that I may
revoke
licenses for operators that charge waaaay up in the sky not
just above
cost but ABOVE acceptable international pricing benchmarks.
They've
all the data they need. Imagine, for example, Safaricom on
the verge
of losing their license, price drops, drops, drops, drops,
drops, and
drops..... across board.
Would this be acceptable to you?
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Dear Colleagues, You all would be welcome to participate in discussions on these issues in the East African Fibre Summit, which we are holding at Laico Regency over 22-23 September. The draft programme is attached. Please email me if you would like to make a presentation or participate in a Discussion Panel. Asante sana, Sean Moroney Chairman AITEC Africa <blocked::mailto:seanm@aitecafrica.com> seanm@aitecafrica.com UK Tel: +44(0)1480-880774 UK Fax: +44(0)1480-880765 UK Mobile: +44(0)7973-499224 Kenya Mobile: +254(0)721-845674 Mozambique Mobile: +258-82-6181618 Nigeria Mobile: +234(0)802-0571766 SA Mobile: +27(0)724-577887 Skype: seanmoroney <blocked::http://www.aitecafrica.com/> www.aitecafrica.com UPCOMING AITEC AFRICA EVENTS: <*************************************************> * PAMRO (Pan-African Media Research Organisation): 11th Annual Meeting, Nairobi, 24-26 August <*************************************************> * AITEC Mozambique ICT Congress, Maputo, 17-18 September 2009 <*************************************************> * The East African Fibre Summit, Nairobi, 22-23 September 2009 <*************************************************> * ComBIT Africa, Lagos, 2-4 November 2009 <*************************************************> * Outsourcing & Contact Centre East Africa, Nairobi, 11-12 November 2009 <*************************************************> * Customer Service & Contact Centre, Lagos, 24-25 November 2009 <*************************************************> * Banking & Mobile Payments East Africa, Nairobi, 23-24 February 2010 <*************************************************> * Banking & Mobile Payments West Africa, Lagos, 11-12 May 2010 <*************************************************> * Broadcast & Film Africa, Nairobi, 19-20 May 2010 <*************************************************> Don't forget that if you are a South African company the dti may find you eligible for a refund of 100% of the costs of exhibiting at our events. contact us for more details! Communication is key! AITEC Africa is the trading name of AITEC Conferences Limited registered in England and Wales. Company registration number: 4698475 This email and any files transmitted with it are confidential and intended solely for the use of the individual or entity to whom they are addressed. If you are not the named addressee you should not disseminate, distribute or copy this e-mail. Please notify the sender immediately by e-mail if you have mistakenly received this e-mail and delete it from your system. If you are not the intended recipient you are notified that disclosing, copying, distributing or taking any action in reliance on the contents of this information is strictly prohibited. Warning: Although reasonable precautions have been taken to ensure no viruses are present in this email, no responsibility for any loss or damage arising from the use of this email or attachments is accepted. _____ From: kictanet-bounces+seanm=aitecafrica.com@lists.kictanet.or.ke [mailto:kictanet-bounces+seanm=aitecafrica.com@lists.kictanet.or.ke] On Behalf Of Bildad Kagai Sent: 17 August 2009 17:57 To: seanm@aitecafrica.com Cc: KICTAnet ICT Policy Discussions Subject: Re: [kictanet] [Skunkworks] the long fibre lie...Regulatory Actionlimited. Walu, Placing this extract in the context of this discussion and your report on e-Governance we discussed 4 months ago...pg. 17....you forgot to include a fundamental issue. Bill Kagai doubted Brian's statement about the TEAMS project being "developmental" rather than "profit" oriented. In his rejoinder Brain Longwe said that there were a number of different ways to go about major infrastructure development: 1. For-Profit: Putting together a business case with a clear Return-On-Investment (ROI) benefit; looking out for funding, then building and deploying. Hopefully the market would respond well and the investors get their return (e.g. SEACOM). 2. Means-to-an-end: Determine the total costs for the project, approach the primary stakeholders; Oil companies in the case of oil pipelines, gas companies in the case of gas companies, operators and ISPs in the case of bandwidth; sell them the concept of delivering the commodity to themselves at cost (or as near to cost as possible); set up an "Operations and Maintenance" structure which levies the same parties; build and deploy; once the bandwidth is delivered it's a "free-for-all" in the marketplace - with 'costs' at a very low level, prices would eventually follow due to competition (e.g. TEAMs and EASSY) He said this is was one of the main reasons why projects such as TEAMs and EASSY have faced stiff opposition, criticism and outright attempted sabotage - because they have the potential to cut the feet out from under any similar commercial venture. In response Bill Kagai stated the following 1. For Profit - Seacom -This sounded like a brilliant business and economic model. 2. Means-to-an-end - TEAMS: Referencing his university economics this option appeared as the only economic model they did not teach at the University of Nairobi an institution established by an Act of Parliament. In summary, he felt that TEAMs had already waged a price war with no products in the market yet and was skeptical that TEAMs would indeed be cheaper than SEACOM in terms of costing internet service. .....You forgot to include that Brian promised to buy me kalovo should Seacom roll out faster and end up being cheaper than Teams. Haki yetu.. On Aug 17, 2009, at 1:10 PM, Walubengo J wrote: MO, Alex, Ease up abit. Dont imagine I dont want affordable internet prices. Infact if you had time and googled my online contributions over the last 5years, you will realize I have been raising the red-flag about fiber vis a viz pricing. The other day I reloaded my Safcom modem with 1,000/= (300MB service). It all disappeared within 5days! Previously before SEACOM it would take longer (3weeks) to disappear because of the slower speeds. Better speeds encourage faster and broader browsing but it hurts (financially) and its not funny. I think our differences lie in the approach to having reduced prices. I chose the academic route because thats my background. Feel free to pursue your routes to reduced prices - but plse be cautious because the solution is NOT domiciled in ONE stakeholder. Its not with the Regulator, nor the techies, nor the activists, nor the Consumers, nor the Govt, nor the Media, etc. Instead I believe it is with ALL of the above. And it will be unfortunate to alienate any of them while pursuing reduced prices. walu. nb1: and thats why I had copied to what Alex calls my "home-tuff" (just ropping in other stakeholders). nb2: I also note and do appreciated your legal counterarguments but decline to respond as at now since I will cover that and other issues during the upcoming ICT conference at SU (I think will be free to sambaza the paper thereafter for those interested). --- On Mon, 8/17/09, mike oketch <mikeoketch@gmail.com> wrote: From: mike oketch <mikeoketch@gmail.com> Subject: Re: [Skunkworks] the long fibre lie...Regulatory Action limited. To: "Skunkworks forum" <skunkworks@lists.my.co.ke> Date: Monday, August 17, 2009, 10:13 AM Again Safaricom CEO who is also heads the board of TEAMS says that TEAMS benefits could not be realised because onward connection with Europe has not been fully discussed. How can you initiate a flight from Kenya to Nigeria without getting the landing rights in Nigeria and flight clearance for CAR, DRC, Sudan and all the countries you are going to overfly? Cheap Cheap Cheap and we wont be duped. I have seen people in this list who support the crooked CEOs just because they need favors for contracts and interviews for their educations research papers. Hypocrites they are. Lets be realistic MO On Mon, Aug 17, 2009 at 9:10 AM, mike oketch <mikeoketch@gmail.com> wrote: Walubengo Yours are just too simplistic than the Alex's you are saying that are simplistic. The fact that kenya could not regulate Oil prices doesnt mean that Tanzania couldnt. The fact that SAT 3 operators couldnt be regulated cannont mean that the operators here cannot be regulated. Stop all these fake comparisons. Prices must come down and we will face them at every conference and every Barcamp and will tell these unpatriotic who have pocketed our PS off. Your arguments just dont wash. MO On Mon, Aug 17, 2009 at 8:40 AM, Walubengo J <jwalu@yahoo.com> wrote: Alex, Your have rightly qaulified your solution - as simple. Indeed it is. Infact too simplistic to fly. The idea that the Regulator can reign in Operators who charge "high" internet rates cannot and will not work. Think about the in-famous SAT3 fiber link on the west coast of africa. Ask yourself why the Regulators in Nigeria, Ghana, Cameroon, Angola, S-Africa etc have never stepped in and revoked licensces of operators over the last 15yrs of high internet costs offered on the fiber... The answers are very complex...I will actually be discussing these limitations and available interventions in some upcoming ICT conference at Strath University in Sept 09 and I dont want to pre-empt ;-).... walu. --- On Fri, 8/14/09, Gakuru Alex <alexgakuru.lists@gmail.com> wrote: From: Gakuru Alex <alexgakuru.lists@gmail.com> Subject: Re: [Skunkworks] Fwd: the long fibre lie... Ndemo should resign if internet prices do not drop as he promised!! To: "Skunkworks forum" <skunkworks@lists.my.co.ke> Date: Friday, August 14, 2009, 8:44 PM On Fri, Aug 14, 2009 at 7:38 PM, David Kiania | Asentric Consulting Ltd<kianiadee@gmail.com> wrote: Set the precedence what's your solution? Am sure if you did we'd have heard it by now. This thread is a knee jerk reaction to a bad internet day, we all have one. Simple, the entity under Ndemo's docket that grants these cowboy operators licenses puts it's foot down and warn that I may revoke licenses for operators that charge waaaay up in the sky not just above cost but ABOVE acceptable international pricing benchmarks. They've all the data they need. Imagine, for example, Safaricom on the verge of losing their license, price drops, drops, drops, drops, drops, and drops..... across board. Would this be acceptable to you? _______________________________________________ Skunkworks mailing list Skunkworks@lists.my.co.ke http://lists.my.co.ke/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/skunkworks Other services @ http://my.co.ke Other lists ------------- Announce: http://lists.my.co.ke/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/skunkworks-announce Science: http://lists.my.co.ke/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/science kazi: http://lists.my.co.ke/cgi-bin/mailman/admin/kazi/general _______________________________________________ Skunkworks mailing list Skunkworks@lists.my.co.ke http://lists.my.co.ke/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/skunkworks Other services @ http://my.co.ke Other lists ------------- Announce: http://lists.my.co.ke/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/skunkworks-announce Science: http://lists.my.co.ke/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/science kazi: http://lists.my.co.ke/cgi-bin/mailman/admin/kazi/general -----Inline Attachment Follows----- _______________________________________________ Skunkworks mailing list Skunkworks@lists.my.co.ke http://lists.my.co.ke/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/skunkworks Other services @ http://my.co.ke Other lists ------------- Announce: http://lists.my.co.ke/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/skunkworks-announce Science: http://lists.my.co.ke/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/science kazi: http://lists.my.co.ke/cgi-bin/mailman/admin/kazi/general _______________________________________________ kictanet mailing list kictanet@lists.kictanet.or.ke http://lists.kictanet.or.ke/mailman/listinfo/kictanet This message was sent to: billkagai@gmail.com Unsubscribe or change your options at http://lists.kictanet.or.ke/mailman/options/kictanet/billkagai%40gmail.com
How much (KES/USD) to attend? Sean Moroney wrote:
Dear Colleagues,
You all would be welcome to participate in discussions on these issues in the East African Fibre Summit, which we are holding at Laico Regency over 22-23 September. The draft programme is attached. Please email me if you would like to make a presentation or participate in a Discussion Panel.
Asante sana,
Sean Moroney
Chairman
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*From:* kictanet-bounces+seanm=aitecafrica.com@lists.kictanet.or.ke [mailto:kictanet-bounces+seanm=aitecafrica.com@lists.kictanet.or.ke] *On Behalf Of *Bildad Kagai *Sent:* 17 August 2009 17:57 *To:* seanm@aitecafrica.com *Cc:* KICTAnet ICT Policy Discussions *Subject:* Re: [kictanet] [Skunkworks] the long fibre lie...Regulatory Actionlimited.
Walu,
Placing this extract in the context of this discussion and your report on e-Governance we discussed 4 months ago...pg. 17....you forgot to include a fundamental issue.
*/Bill Kagai/*/ doubted Brian's statement about the TEAMS project being "developmental" /
/rather than "profit" oriented. In his rejoinder *Brain Longwe* said that there were a /
/number of different ways to go about major infrastructure development: /
/ /
/1.// //For-Profit: Putting together a business case with a clear Return-On-Investment /
/(ROI) benefit; looking out for funding, then building and deploying. Hopefully /
/the market would respond well and the investors get their return (e.g. SEACOM). /
/2.// //Means-to-an-end: Determine the total costs for the project, approach the primary /
/stakeholders; Oil companies in the case of oil pipelines, gas companies in the case /
/of gas companies, operators and ISPs in the case of bandwidth; sell them the /
/concept of delivering the commodity to themselves at cost (or as near to cost as /
/possible); set up an "Operations and Maintenance" structure which levies the /
/same parties; build and deploy; once the bandwidth is delivered it's a "free-for-all" /
/in the marketplace - with 'costs' at a very low level, prices would eventually /
/follow due to competition (e.g. TEAMs and EASSY) /
/ /
/He said this is was one of the main reasons why projects such as TEAMs and EASSY /
/have faced stiff opposition, criticism and outright attempted sabotage -- because they have /
/the potential to cut the feet out from under any similar commercial venture. /
/ /
/In response *Bill Kagai* stated the following /
/ /
/1.// //For Profit - Seacom -This sounded like a brilliant business and economic model. /
/2.// //Means-to-an-end - TEAMS: Referencing his university economics this option /
/appeared as the only economic model they did not teach at the University of /
/Nairobi// an institution established by an Act of Parliament. /
/ /
/In summary, he felt that TEAMs had already waged a price war with no products in the /
/market yet and was skeptical that TEAMs would indeed be cheaper than SEACOM in /
/terms of costing internet service. /
.....You forgot to include that Brian promised to buy me kalovo should Seacom roll out faster and end up being cheaper than Teams. Haki yetu..
On Aug 17, 2009, at 1:10 PM, Walubengo J wrote:
MO, Alex,
Ease up abit. Dont imagine I dont want affordable internet prices. Infact if you had time and googled my online contributions over the last 5years, you will realize I have been raising the red-flag about fiber vis a viz pricing. The other day I reloaded my Safcom modem with 1,000/= (300MB service). It all disappeared within 5days! Previously before SEACOM it would take longer (3weeks) to disappear because of the slower speeds. Better speeds encourage faster and broader browsing but it hurts (financially) and its not funny.
I think our differences lie in the approach to having reduced prices. I chose the academic route because thats my background. Feel free to pursue your routes to reduced prices - but plse be cautious because the solution is NOT domiciled in ONE stakeholder. Its not with the Regulator, nor the techies, nor the activists, nor the Consumers, nor the Govt, nor the Media, etc. Instead I believe it is with ALL of the above. And it will be unfortunate to alienate any of them while pursuing reduced prices.
walu. nb1: and thats why I had copied to what Alex calls my "home-tuff" (just ropping in other stakeholders). nb2: I also note and do appreciated your legal counterarguments but decline to respond as at now since I will cover that and other issues during the upcoming ICT conference at SU (I think will be free to sambaza the paper thereafter for those interested).
--- On Mon, 8/17/09, mike oketch <mikeoketch@gmail.com <mailto:mikeoketch@gmail.com>> wrote:
From: mike oketch <mikeoketch@gmail.com <mailto:mikeoketch@gmail.com>>
Subject: Re: [Skunkworks] the long fibre lie...Regulatory Action limited.
To: "Skunkworks forum" <skunkworks@lists.my.co.ke <mailto:skunkworks@lists.my.co.ke>>
Date: Monday, August 17, 2009, 10:13 AM
Again
Safaricom CEO who is also heads the board of
TEAMS says that TEAMS benefits could not be realised because
onward connection with Europe has not been fully discussed.
How can you initiate a flight from Kenya to Nigeria without
getting the landing rights in Nigeria and flight clearance
for CAR, DRC, Sudan and all the countries you are going to
overfly?
Cheap Cheap Cheap and we wont be duped. I have
seen people in this list who support the crooked CEOs just
because they need favors for contracts and interviews for
their educations research papers. Hypocrites they are.
Lets be realistic
MO
On Mon, Aug 17, 2009 at 9:10 AM,
mike oketch <mikeoketch@gmail.com <mailto:mikeoketch@gmail.com>>
wrote:
Walubengo
Yours are just too simplistic than the
Alex's you are saying that are simplistic. The fact that
kenya could not regulate Oil prices doesnt mean that
Tanzania couldnt. The fact that SAT 3 operators couldnt be
regulated cannont mean that the operators here cannot be
regulated.
Stop all these fake comparisons. Prices must
come down and we will face them at every conference and
every Barcamp and will tell these unpatriotic who have
pocketed our PS off. Your arguments just dont wash.
MO
On Mon, Aug 17, 2009 at 8:40 AM,
Walubengo J <jwalu@yahoo.com <mailto:jwalu@yahoo.com>>
wrote:
Alex,
Your have rightly qaulified your solution - as simple.
Indeed it is. Infact too simplistic to fly. The idea
that the Regulator can reign in Operators who charge
"high" internet rates cannot and will not work.
Think about the in-famous SAT3 fiber link on the west
coast of africa. Ask yourself why the Regulators in
Nigeria, Ghana, Cameroon, Angola, S-Africa etc have never
stepped in and revoked licensces of operators over the
last 15yrs of high internet costs offered on the fiber...
The answers are very complex...I will actually be
discussing these limitations and available interventions in
some upcoming ICT conference at Strath University in Sept 09
and I dont want to pre-empt ;-)....
walu.
--- On Fri, 8/14/09, Gakuru Alex <alexgakuru.lists@gmail.com <mailto:alexgakuru.lists@gmail.com>>
wrote:
From: Gakuru Alex <alexgakuru.lists@gmail.com <mailto:alexgakuru.lists@gmail.com>>
Subject: Re: [Skunkworks] Fwd: the long fibre lie...
Ndemo should resign if internet prices do not drop as he
promised!!
To: "Skunkworks forum" <skunkworks@lists.my.co.ke <mailto:skunkworks@lists.my.co.ke>>
Date: Friday, August 14, 2009, 8:44 PM
On Fri, Aug 14, 2009 at 7:38 PM,
David Kiania | Asentric Consulting
Ltd<kianiadee@gmail.com <mailto:kianiadee@gmail.com>>
wrote:
Set the precedence what's your solution? Am
sure if
you did we'd have
heard it by now. This thread is a knee jerk
reaction
to a bad internet
day, we all have one.
Simple, the entity under Ndemo's docket that
grants these
cowboy
operators licenses puts it's foot down and warn
that I may
revoke
licenses for operators that charge waaaay up in the
sky not
just above
cost but ABOVE acceptable international pricing
benchmarks.
They've
all the data they need. Imagine, for example,
Safaricom on
the verge
of losing their license, price drops, drops, drops,
drops,
drops, and
drops..... across board.
Would this be acceptable to you?
_______________________________________________
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-------------
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Hi all, Fortunately Bill has a memory like an elephant, he never forgets anything! LoL Nevertheless - I still stand by my earlier statements. The price at which TEAMS shareholders will offer bandwidth to the marketplace once they have their end-to-end connectivity in place will be much lower than that of SEACOM. But back to the matter of bandwidth pricing and whether it was all a big lie about prices to consumers coming down... Methinks that we are very impatient if we expect pricing across the board to have dropped within less than a month of 1 cable system having only 2 operators carrying bandwidth. I would probably set the time when the price wars kick in with earnest at somewhere around mid-January or even as early as November - if individual TEAMs shareholders integration moves with speed. Bill, since SEACOM delivered bandwidth to the marketplace - despite landing *after* TEAMs - I will definitely uphold my offer of Kalovo. Will call you to set the date and venue <grin> Regards, Brian On Mon, Aug 17, 2009 at 7:57 PM, Bildad Kagai <billkagai@gmail.com> wrote:
Walu, Placing this extract in the context of this discussion and your report on e-Governance we discussed 4 months ago...pg. 17....you forgot to include a fundamental issue.
*Bill Kagai** doubted Brian's statement about the TEAMS project being “developmental” * *rather than “profit” oriented. In his rejoinder **Brain Longwe** said that there were a * *number of different ways to go about major infrastructure development: *
* * *1.** **For-Profit: Putting together a business case with a clear Return-On-Investment * *(ROI) benefit; looking out for funding, then building and deploying. Hopefully * *the market would respond well and the investors get their return (e.g. SEACOM). * *2.** **Means-to-an-end: Determine the total costs for the project, approach the primary * *stakeholders; Oil companies in the case of oil pipelines, gas companies in the case * *of gas companies, operators and ISPs in the case of bandwidth; sell them the * *concept of delivering the commodity to themselves at cost (or as near to cost as * *possible); set up an "Operations and Maintenance" structure which levies the * *same parties; build and deploy; once the bandwidth is delivered it's a "free-for-all" * *in the marketplace - with ‘costs’ at a very low level, prices would eventually * *follow due to competition (e.g. TEAMs and EASSY) *
* * *He said this is was one of the main reasons why projects such as TEAMs and EASSY * *have faced stiff opposition, criticism and outright attempted sabotage – because they have * *the potential to cut the feet out from under any similar commercial venture. *
* * *In response **Bill Kagai** stated the following *
* * *1.** **For Profit - Seacom -This sounded like a brilliant business and economic model. * *2.** **Means-to-an-end - TEAMS: Referencing his university economics this option * *appeared as the only economic model they did not teach at the University of * *Nairobi an institution established by an Act of Parliament. *
* * *In summary, he felt that TEAMs had already waged a price war with no products in the * *market yet and was skeptical that TEAMs would indeed be cheaper than SEACOM in * *terms of costing internet service. *
.....You forgot to include that Brian promised to buy me kalovo should Seacom roll out faster and end up being cheaper than Teams. Haki yetu..
On Aug 17, 2009, at 1:10 PM, Walubengo J wrote:
MO, Alex,
Ease up abit. Dont imagine I dont want affordable internet prices. Infact if you had time and googled my online contributions over the last 5years, you will realize I have been raising the red-flag about fiber vis a viz pricing. The other day I reloaded my Safcom modem with 1,000/= (300MB service). It all disappeared within 5days! Previously before SEACOM it would take longer (3weeks) to disappear because of the slower speeds. Better speeds encourage faster and broader browsing but it hurts (financially) and its not funny.
I think our differences lie in the approach to having reduced prices. I chose the academic route because thats my background. Feel free to pursue your routes to reduced prices - but plse be cautious because the solution is NOT domiciled in ONE stakeholder. Its not with the Regulator, nor the techies, nor the activists, nor the Consumers, nor the Govt, nor the Media, etc. Instead I believe it is with ALL of the above. And it will be unfortunate to alienate any of them while pursuing reduced prices.
walu. nb1: and thats why I had copied to what Alex calls my "home-tuff" (just ropping in other stakeholders). nb2: I also note and do appreciated your legal counterarguments but decline to respond as at now since I will cover that and other issues during the upcoming ICT conference at SU (I think will be free to sambaza the paper thereafter for those interested).
--- On Mon, 8/17/09, mike oketch <mikeoketch@gmail.com> wrote:
From: mike oketch <mikeoketch@gmail.com>
Subject: Re: [Skunkworks] the long fibre lie...Regulatory Action limited.
To: "Skunkworks forum" <skunkworks@lists.my.co.ke>
Date: Monday, August 17, 2009, 10:13 AM
Again
Safaricom CEO who is also heads the board of
TEAMS says that TEAMS benefits could not be realised because
onward connection with Europe has not been fully discussed.
How can you initiate a flight from Kenya to Nigeria without
getting the landing rights in Nigeria and flight clearance
for CAR, DRC, Sudan and all the countries you are going to
overfly?
Cheap Cheap Cheap and we wont be duped. I have
seen people in this list who support the crooked CEOs just
because they need favors for contracts and interviews for
their educations research papers. Hypocrites they are.
Lets be realistic
MO
On Mon, Aug 17, 2009 at 9:10 AM,
mike oketch <mikeoketch@gmail.com>
wrote:
Walubengo
Yours are just too simplistic than the
Alex's you are saying that are simplistic. The fact that
kenya could not regulate Oil prices doesnt mean that
Tanzania couldnt. The fact that SAT 3 operators couldnt be
regulated cannont mean that the operators here cannot be
regulated.
Stop all these fake comparisons. Prices must
come down and we will face them at every conference and
every Barcamp and will tell these unpatriotic who have
pocketed our PS off. Your arguments just dont wash.
MO
On Mon, Aug 17, 2009 at 8:40 AM,
Walubengo J <jwalu@yahoo.com>
wrote:
Alex,
Your have rightly qaulified your solution - as simple.
Indeed it is. Infact too simplistic to fly. The idea
that the Regulator can reign in Operators who charge
"high" internet rates cannot and will not work.
Think about the in-famous SAT3 fiber link on the west
coast of africa. Ask yourself why the Regulators in
Nigeria, Ghana, Cameroon, Angola, S-Africa etc have never
stepped in and revoked licensces of operators over the
last 15yrs of high internet costs offered on the fiber...
The answers are very complex...I will actually be
discussing these limitations and available interventions in
some upcoming ICT conference at Strath University in Sept 09
and I dont want to pre-empt ;-)....
walu.
--- On Fri, 8/14/09, Gakuru Alex <alexgakuru.lists@gmail.com>
wrote:
From: Gakuru Alex <alexgakuru.lists@gmail.com>
Subject: Re: [Skunkworks] Fwd: the long fibre lie...
Ndemo should resign if internet prices do not drop as he
promised!!
To: "Skunkworks forum" <skunkworks@lists.my.co.ke>
Date: Friday, August 14, 2009, 8:44 PM
On Fri, Aug 14, 2009 at 7:38 PM,
David Kiania | Asentric Consulting
Ltd<kianiadee@gmail.com>
wrote:
Set the precedence what's your solution? Am
sure if
you did we'd have
heard it by now. This thread is a knee jerk
reaction
to a bad internet
day, we all have one.
Simple, the entity under Ndemo's docket that
grants these
cowboy
operators licenses puts it's foot down and warn
that I may
revoke
licenses for operators that charge waaaay up in the
sky not
just above
cost but ABOVE acceptable international pricing
benchmarks.
They've
all the data they need. Imagine, for example,
Safaricom on
the verge
of losing their license, price drops, drops, drops,
drops,
drops, and
drops..... across board.
Would this be acceptable to you?
_______________________________________________
Skunkworks mailing list
Skunkworks@lists.my.co.ke
http://lists.my.co.ke/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/skunkworks
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-- Brian Munyao Longwe e-mail: blongwe@gmail.com cell: + 254 722 518 744 blog : http://zinjlog.blogspot.com meta-blog: http://mashilingi.blogspot.com
participants (6)
-
Bildad Kagai -
Brian Munyao Longwe -
Lucy Kimani -
S.Murigi Muraya -
Sean Moroney -
Walubengo J