Child marriage on facebook
Hi listers, Im following a debate on cnn about this south sudanese 'baby bride' who was auctioned on fb. It brings me back to this question, who should regulate facebook? Some argue fb is too big to regulate all the things that happen on their platform. Who should police fb? Is it us? We have power to shut down our pages if we dont agree with what goes on in their...but we don't. Why? Is it facebook? Do they care about being responsible especially in Africa? Is it government? And just how far can the government reach? Or should we just relax and face the beginning of the end by having an attitude of anything goes as long we have internet. Nice day everyone. Sent from Yahoo Mail on Android
It’s not really a debate-human trafficking violates our policies. This instance was discovered by a Facebook employee, and we took action immediately, not only to shut down the page, but to shut down the involved accounts. We continue to evolve our ability to detect violations on our platforms, but YES, it is YOU, the community, who helps to police the content on Facebook. I continue to be struck by the incredibly low levels of reporting across our Continent. We continue to develop educational materials, but I am always surprised at how few people, even in circles like this, know to report bad content into the platform. On Nov 20, 2018, at 12:20 PM, evelyne wanjiku via kictanet <kictanet@lists.kictanet.or.ke<mailto:kictanet@lists.kictanet.or.ke>> wrote: Hi listers, Im following a debate on cnn about this south sudanese 'baby bride' who was auctioned on fb. It brings me back to this question, who should regulate facebook? Some argue fb is too big to regulate all the things that happen on their platform. Who should police fb? Is it us? We have power to shut down our pages if we dont agree with what goes on in their...but we don't. Why? Is it facebook? Do they care about being responsible especially in Africa? Is it government? And just how far can the government reach? Or should we just relax and face the beginning of the end by having an attitude of anything goes as long we have internet. Nice day everyone. Sent from Yahoo Mail on Android<https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=https-3A__go.onelink.me_107872968-3Fpid-3DInProduct-26c-3DGlobal-5FInternal-5FYGrowth-5FAndroidEmailSig-5F-5FAndroidUsers-26af-5Fwl-3Dym-26af-5Fsub1-3DInternal-26af-5Fsub2-3DGlobal-5FYGrowth-26af-5Fsub3-3DEmailSignature&d=DwMFaQ&c=5VD0RTtNlTh3ycd41b3MUw&r=ArvepG4_wcNu_X9xi3nb_Xa9WsGLVfmK6mwPdVONOTE&m=6qggklK2_ntgWo1c97n3QfH0uJHkXi6k4nBDblWO_Cg&s=Ka9taj6gdc6AIQkJD9RmsN1N7P1MeUvCJzVXbbyySUs&e=> _______________________________________________ kictanet mailing list kictanet@lists.kictanet.or.ke<mailto:kictanet@lists.kictanet.or.ke> https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=https-3A__lists.kictanet.or.ke_mailman_listinfo_kictanet&d=DwICAg&c=5VD0RTtNlTh3ycd41b3MUw&r=ArvepG4_wcNu_X9xi3nb_Xa9WsGLVfmK6mwPdVONOTE&m=6qggklK2_ntgWo1c97n3QfH0uJHkXi6k4nBDblWO_Cg&s=Orj-KbZOHqNRSd9QpYUvFP2Aq7N_vMlROhDAVhBQ8JE&e= Twitter: https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=http-3A__twitter.com_kictanet&d=DwICAg&c=5VD0RTtNlTh3ycd41b3MUw&r=ArvepG4_wcNu_X9xi3nb_Xa9WsGLVfmK6mwPdVONOTE&m=6qggklK2_ntgWo1c97n3QfH0uJHkXi6k4nBDblWO_Cg&s=MlQGv6S5UDX-1p5t50OVUyDEk5VNp7M2a7LIjDaHb0s&e= Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/KICTANet/ Domain Registration sponsored by https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=http-3A__www.eacdirectory.co.ke&d=DwICAg&c=5VD0RTtNlTh3ycd41b3MUw&r=ArvepG4_wcNu_X9xi3nb_Xa9WsGLVfmK6mwPdVONOTE&m=6qggklK2_ntgWo1c97n3QfH0uJHkXi6k4nBDblWO_Cg&s=EiHNc-Rcd4hOxbxWsNwUayouZGGtxrAqsAnY2QWQNOE&e= Unsubscribe or change your options at https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=https-3A__lists.kictanet.or.ke_mailman_options_kictanet_ebeleokobi-2540fb.com&d=DwICAg&c=5VD0RTtNlTh3ycd41b3MUw&r=ArvepG4_wcNu_X9xi3nb_Xa9WsGLVfmK6mwPdVONOTE&m=6qggklK2_ntgWo1c97n3QfH0uJHkXi6k4nBDblWO_Cg&s=RE3-aJP4V9DuPh_grm3hhxk9ppMqwAtpVZsu_cFdCMw&e= The Kenya ICT Action Network (KICTANet) is a multi-stakeholder platform for people and institutions interested and involved in ICT policy and regulation. The network aims to act as a catalyst for reform in the ICT sector in support of the national aim of ICT enabled growth and development. KICTANetiquette : Adhere to the same standards of acceptable behaviors online that you follow in real life: respect people's times and bandwidth, share knowledge, don't flame or abuse or personalize, respect privacy, do not spam, do not market your wares or qualifications.
The question sits squarely at the intersection of three things 1. Is the government tech savvy enough to regulate big ISPs FB, Google etc 2. Have the services of the big Tech spun out of their control reducing their admins to spectators? 3. If the first two are positive, is the market equipped with the right tools to address the concern? Regards On Tue, Nov 20, 2018 at 3:34 PM Wainaina Mungai via kictanet < kictanet@lists.kictanet.or.ke> wrote:
Hi,
Facebook as increased their staff significantly to help police what is posted. We may want not to blame the medium used and focus more on addressing the culture of marrying off children of any gender in any country. That way, we remain focussed on 'children's rights'.
The main offenders in this case are the "sellers" and "buyers" who took part in the auction.
In the end, the extent of regulation will depend on mutistakeholder negotiations on the balance between an open Internet for all and the need to protect privacy, security and human rights online.
Wainaina
On 20 Nov 2018 15:18, evelyne wanjiku via kictanet < kictanet@lists.kictanet.or.ke> wrote:
Hi listers,
Im following a debate on cnn about this south sudanese 'baby bride' who was auctioned on fb.
It brings me back to this question, who should regulate facebook? Some argue fb is too big to regulate all the things that happen on their platform.
Who should police fb? Is it us? We have power to shut down our pages if we dont agree with what goes on in their...but we don't. Why?
Is it facebook? Do they care about being responsible especially in Africa?
Is it government? And just how far can the government reach?
Or should we just relax and face the beginning of the end by having an attitude of anything goes as long we have internet.
Nice day everyone.
Sent from Yahoo Mail on Android <https://go.onelink.me/107872968?pid=InProduct&c=Global_Internal_YGrowth_AndroidEmailSig__AndroidUsers&af_wl=ym&af_sub1=Internal&af_sub2=Global_YGrowth&af_sub3=EmailSignature>
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The Kenya ICT Action Network (KICTANet) is a multi-stakeholder platform for people and institutions interested and involved in ICT policy and regulation. The network aims to act as a catalyst for reform in the ICT sector in support of the national aim of ICT enabled growth and development.
KICTANetiquette : Adhere to the same standards of acceptable behaviors online that you follow in real life: respect people's times and bandwidth, share knowledge, don't flame or abuse or personalize, respect privacy, do not spam, do not market your wares or qualifications.
-- *Computer and Cellular Forensic InvestigatorCyber Crime Unit CID HQ Nairobi 0720-727003ENCASE II C.H.F.I*
Hi Hannington, Yes i agree on the intersection. Would you kindly comment on the general preparedness of the kenyan police in handling such issues when they happen in online spaces? For example, if someone posts an anonymous post trafficking human beings... how equipped is our police force to track them down? Also can such cyber related crimes be reported, investigated and dealt with in other places away from the cyber crime unit which i assume is based in nairobi? Are the poloce in other units trained to handle digital issues. Thank youSent from Yahoo Mail on Android On Tue, 20 Nov 2018 at 17:19, Hannington Oduor via kictanet<kictanet@lists.kictanet.or.ke> wrote: _______________________________________________ kictanet mailing list kictanet@lists.kictanet.or.ke https://lists.kictanet.or.ke/mailman/listinfo/kictanet Twitter: http://twitter.com/kictanet Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/KICTANet/ Domain Registration sponsored by www.eacdirectory.co.ke Unsubscribe or change your options at https://lists.kictanet.or.ke/mailman/options/kictanet/ewanjiku2005%40yahoo.c... The Kenya ICT Action Network (KICTANet) is a multi-stakeholder platform for people and institutions interested and involved in ICT policy and regulation. The network aims to act as a catalyst for reform in the ICT sector in support of the national aim of ICT enabled growth and development. KICTANetiquette : Adhere to the same standards of acceptable behaviors online that you follow in real life: respect people's times and bandwidth, share knowledge, don't flame or abuse or personalize, respect privacy, do not spam, do not market your wares or qualifications.
Wainaina Well put. Couldn’t have put it better. Ali Hussein +254 0713 601113 Twitter: @AliHKassim Skype: abu-jomo LinkedIn: http://ke.linkedin.com/in/alihkassim Blog: www.alyhussein.com "Discovery consists in seeing what everyone else has seen and thinking what no one else has thought". ~ Albert Szent-Györgyi Sent from my iPad
On 20 Nov 2018, at 3:33 PM, Wainaina Mungai via kictanet <kictanet@lists.kictanet.or.ke> wrote:
Hi,
Facebook as increased their staff significantly to help police what is posted. We may want not to blame the medium used and focus more on addressing the culture of marrying off children of any gender in any country. That way, we remain focussed on 'children's rights'.
The main offenders in this case are the "sellers" and "buyers" who took part in the auction.
In the end, the extent of regulation will depend on mutistakeholder negotiations on the balance between an open Internet for all and the need to protect privacy, security and human rights online.
Wainaina
On 20 Nov 2018 15:18, evelyne wanjiku via kictanet <kictanet@lists.kictanet.or.ke> wrote: Hi listers,
Im following a debate on cnn about this south sudanese 'baby bride' who was auctioned on fb.
It brings me back to this question, who should regulate facebook? Some argue fb is too big to regulate all the things that happen on their platform.
Who should police fb? Is it us? We have power to shut down our pages if we dont agree with what goes on in their...but we don't. Why?
Is it facebook? Do they care about being responsible especially in Africa?
Is it government? And just how far can the government reach?
Or should we just relax and face the beginning of the end by having an attitude of anything goes as long we have internet.
Nice day everyone.
Sent from Yahoo Mail on Android
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The Kenya ICT Action Network (KICTANet) is a multi-stakeholder platform for people and institutions interested and involved in ICT policy and regulation. The network aims to act as a catalyst for reform in the ICT sector in support of the national aim of ICT enabled growth and development.
KICTANetiquette : Adhere to the same standards of acceptable behaviors online that you follow in real life: respect people's times and bandwidth, share knowledge, don't flame or abuse or personalize, respect privacy, do not spam, do not market your wares or qualifications.
Some responses on this topic raise some interesting and important issues: 1. Do social media/messaging platform play a role in crime as amplifiers, enablers? 2. Would crimes be harder to pull off if such platform could, through enhanced technical functionality (which might not necessarily be profitable), not be easily used for organized criminal purpose? 3. Does the community owe the platform a duty to report (as alluded here, such that the community can be blamed for platform misuse)? How much blame does the community share? 4. If indeed the community has a duty to help FB police its platform, will FB also share its revenues with the community seeing as they are its informal "employees" as well? Or are they only buddies in bad times but strangers in good times? 5. Do (or should) victims of social media enabled harm (including, say, businesses that lose sales due to chaos or governments whose economies are effectively sabotaged) have recourse against the platform owner? To what extent? Who else should own the problem and why? I think the "deflect blame to the victims" script is unwise and could backfire. It would probably cause an uproar if used in more assertive parts of the world (i.e. in developed countries/regions). Good day listers,Patrick. On Tuesday, November 20, 2018, 3:52:31 PM GMT+3, Wainaina Mungai via kictanet <kictanet@lists.kictanet.or.ke> wrote: Hi, Facebook as increased their staff significantly to help police what is posted. We may want not to blame the medium used and focus more on addressing the culture of marrying off children of any gender in any country. That way, we remain focussed on 'children's rights'. The main offenders in this case are the "sellers" and "buyers" who took part in the auction. In the end, the extent of regulation will depend on mutistakeholder negotiations on the balance between an open Internet for all and the need to protect privacy, security and human rights online. Wainaina On 20 Nov 2018 15:18, evelyne wanjiku via kictanet <kictanet@lists.kictanet.or.ke> wrote: Hi listers, Im following a debate on cnn about this south sudanese 'baby bride' who was auctioned on fb. It brings me back to this question, who should regulate facebook? Some argue fb is too big to regulate all the things that happen on their platform. Who should police fb? Is it us? We have power to shut down our pages if we dont agree with what goes on in their...but we don't. Why? Is it facebook? Do they care about being responsible especially in Africa? Is it government? And just how far can the government reach? Or should we just relax and face the beginning of the end by having an attitude of anything goes as long we have internet. Nice day everyone. Sent from Yahoo Mail on Android _______________________________________________ kictanet mailing list kictanet@lists.kictanet.or.ke https://lists.kictanet.or.ke/mailman/listinfo/kictanet Twitter: http://twitter.com/kictanet Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/KICTANet/ Domain Registration sponsored by www.eacdirectory.co.ke Unsubscribe or change your options at https://lists.kictanet.or.ke/mailman/options/kictanet/pmaina2000%40yahoo.com The Kenya ICT Action Network (KICTANet) is a multi-stakeholder platform for people and institutions interested and involved in ICT policy and regulation. The network aims to act as a catalyst for reform in the ICT sector in support of the national aim of ICT enabled growth and development. KICTANetiquette : Adhere to the same standards of acceptable behaviors online that you follow in real life: respect people's times and bandwidth, share knowledge, don't flame or abuse or personalize, respect privacy, do not spam, do not market your wares or qualifications.
Patrick There you go again.. This is not UTOPIA Boss.. :-) See my responses in line with your comments. *Ali Hussein* *Principal* *AHK & Associates* Tel: +254 713 601113 Twitter: @AliHKassim Skype: abu-jomo LinkedIn: http://ke.linkedin.com/in/alihkassim <http://ke.linkedin.com/in/alihkassim> 13th Floor , Delta Towers, Oracle Wing, Chiromo Road, Westlands, Nairobi, Kenya. Any information of a personal nature expressed in this email are purely mine and do not necessarily reflect the official positions of the organizations that I work with. On Tue, Nov 20, 2018 at 5:44 PM Patrick A. M. Maina via kictanet < kictanet@lists.kictanet.or.ke> wrote:
Some responses on this topic raise some interesting and important issues:
1. Do social media/messaging platform play a role in crime as amplifiers, enablers? - *Possible. Though Hitler managed to kill off millions without social media. Let's be really careful not to heap blame on platforms where human nature plays a major role. Let's also not forget the other side. The good that some of these platforms do. *
2. Would crimes be harder to pull off if such platform could, through enhanced technical functionality (which might not necessarily be profitable), not be easily used for organized criminal purpose? *- Seriously? Crime and human trafficking was established hundreds of years ago. I never saw in history any one blaming the shipping lines and banks for perpetuating crime.*
3. Does the community owe the platform a duty to report (as alluded here, such that the community can be blamed for platform misuse)? How much blame does the community share? *- But of course. Not the platform but the community. You simply don't use the platform and not be responsible to the community. This however is something that can be shared between the platform and the community.*
4. If indeed the community has a duty to help FB police its platform, will FB also share its revenues with the community seeing as they are its informal "employees" as well? Or are they only buddies in bad times but strangers in good times? -* There's nothing for free boss. For example I pay a monthly subscription on Linkedin. For that I get extras like I can tweak my privacy settings, I can get analytics, I can see whose 'cyberstalking' me etc.. :-) Maybe a subscription model with its attendant benefits may be a good model to think about.. *
5. Do (or should) victims of social media enabled harm (including, say, businesses that lose sales due to chaos or governments whose economies are effectively sabotaged) have recourse against the platform owner? To what extent? Who else should own the problem and why? *- Worth reviewing from a regulatory point of view.*
I think the "deflect blame to the victims" script is unwise and could backfire. It would probably cause an uproar if used in more assertive parts of the world (i.e. in developed countries/regions). *- I don't think that should be the case. It should be a shared responsibility.*
Good day listers, Patrick.
On Tuesday, November 20, 2018, 3:52:31 PM GMT+3, Wainaina Mungai via kictanet <kictanet@lists.kictanet.or.ke> wrote:
Hi,
Facebook as increased their staff significantly to help police what is posted. We may want not to blame the medium used and focus more on addressing the culture of marrying off children of any gender in any country. That way, we remain focussed on 'children's rights'.
The main offenders in this case are the "sellers" and "buyers" who took part in the auction.
In the end, the extent of regulation will depend on mutistakeholder negotiations on the balance between an open Internet for all and the need to protect privacy, security and human rights online.
Wainaina
On 20 Nov 2018 15:18, evelyne wanjiku via kictanet < kictanet@lists.kictanet.or.ke> wrote:
Hi listers,
Im following a debate on cnn about this south sudanese 'baby bride' who was auctioned on fb.
It brings me back to this question, who should regulate facebook? Some argue fb is too big to regulate all the things that happen on their platform.
Who should police fb? Is it us? We have power to shut down our pages if we dont agree with what goes on in their...but we don't. Why?
Is it facebook? Do they care about being responsible especially in Africa?
Is it government? And just how far can the government reach?
Or should we just relax and face the beginning of the end by having an attitude of anything goes as long we have internet.
Nice day everyone.
Sent from Yahoo Mail on Android <https://go.onelink.me/107872968?pid=InProduct&c=Global_Internal_YGrowth_AndroidEmailSig__AndroidUsers&af_wl=ym&af_sub1=Internal&af_sub2=Global_YGrowth&af_sub3=EmailSignature>
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KICTANetiquette : Adhere to the same standards of acceptable behaviors online that you follow in real life: respect people's times and bandwidth, share knowledge, don't flame or abuse or personalize, respect privacy, do not spam, do not market your wares or qualifications. _______________________________________________ kictanet mailing list kictanet@lists.kictanet.or.ke https://lists.kictanet.or.ke/mailman/listinfo/kictanet Twitter: http://twitter.com/kictanet Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/KICTANet/ Domain Registration sponsored by www.eacdirectory.co.ke
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KICTANetiquette : Adhere to the same standards of acceptable behaviors online that you follow in real life: respect people's times and bandwidth, share knowledge, don't flame or abuse or personalize, respect privacy, do not spam, do not market your wares or qualifications.
Hi Ali, good to see that we agree that point 5 is "worth reviewing" from a regulatory perspective and that you believe the platform should share part of the responsibility without resorting to blaming the victims (point 3 and closing paragraph). There is hope in utopia it seems! Just kidding... :-) What's with the ad-hominems though? I think you debate very well even when you don't rely on them. On the other points... Point 1. That looks like a classic strawman argument, but nevertheless, have you considered that weaponized Social media potentially creates *multiple* mini/mega "Hitlers" all over the world? Point 2. Actually banks are now held responsible for facilitating/enabling money laundering, tax evasion and other financial crimes. Also you will recall recently a ship that was blown up by GoK for drug trafficking, basically a transporter penalized for its cargo. Do you have better examples? Point 4. I don't think you really understood my argument, because your response looks out of context? Enjoy your evening :-)Patrick. On Tuesday, November 20, 2018, 5:54:49 PM GMT+3, Ali Hussein <ali@hussein.me.ke> wrote: Patrick There you go again.. This is not UTOPIA Boss.. :-) See my responses in line with your comments. AliHussein Principal AHK & Associates Tel: +254 713 601113 Twitter: @AliHKassim Skype: abu-jomo LinkedIn: http://ke.linkedin.com/in/alihkassim 13th Floor , Delta Towers, Oracle Wing, Chiromo Road, Westlands, Nairobi, Kenya. Any information of a personal nature expressed in this email are purely mine and do not necessarily reflect the official positions of the organizations that I work with. On Tue, Nov 20, 2018 at 5:44 PM Patrick A. M. Maina via kictanet <kictanet@lists.kictanet.or.ke> wrote: Some responses on this topic raise some interesting and important issues: 1. Do social media/messaging platform play a role in crime as amplifiers, enablers? - Possible. Though Hitler managed to kill off millions without social media. Let's be really careful not to heap blame on platforms where human nature plays a major role. Let's also not forget the other side. The good that some of these platforms do. 2. Would crimes be harder to pull off if such platform could, through enhanced technical functionality (which might not necessarily be profitable), not be easily used for organized criminal purpose? - Seriously? Crime and human trafficking was established hundreds of years ago. I never saw in history any one blaming the shipping lines and banks for perpetuating crime. 3. Does the community owe the platform a duty to report (as alluded here, such that the community can be blamed for platform misuse)? How much blame does the community share? - But of course. Not the platform but the community. You simply don't use the platform and not be responsible to the community. This however is something that can be shared between the platform and the community. 4. If indeed the community has a duty to help FB police its platform, will FB also share its revenues with the community seeing as they are its informal "employees" as well? Or are they only buddies in bad times but strangers in good times? - There's nothing for free boss. For example I pay a monthly subscription on Linkedin. For that I get extras like I can tweak my privacy settings, I can get analytics, I can see whose 'cyberstalking' me etc.. :-) Maybe a subscription model with its attendant benefits may be a good model to think about.. 5. Do (or should) victims of social media enabled harm (including, say, businesses that lose sales due to chaos or governments whose economies are effectively sabotaged) have recourse against the platform owner? To what extent? Who else should own the problem and why? - Worth reviewing from a regulatory point of view. I think the "deflect blame to the victims" script is unwise and could backfire. It would probably cause an uproar if used in more assertive parts of the world (i.e. in developed countries/regions). - I don't think that should be the case. It should be a shared responsibility. Good day listers,Patrick. On Tuesday, November 20, 2018, 3:52:31 PM GMT+3, Wainaina Mungai via kictanet <kictanet@lists.kictanet.or.ke> wrote: Hi, Facebook as increased their staff significantly to help police what is posted. We may want not to blame the medium used and focus more on addressing the culture of marrying off children of any gender in any country. That way, we remain focussed on 'children's rights'. The main offenders in this case are the "sellers" and "buyers" who took part in the auction. In the end, the extent of regulation will depend on mutistakeholder negotiations on the balance between an open Internet for all and the need to protect privacy, security and human rights online. Wainaina On 20 Nov 2018 15:18, evelyne wanjiku via kictanet <kictanet@lists.kictanet.or.ke> wrote: Hi listers, Im following a debate on cnn about this south sudanese 'baby bride' who was auctioned on fb. It brings me back to this question, who should regulate facebook? Some argue fb is too big to regulate all the things that happen on their platform. Who should police fb? Is it us? We have power to shut down our pages if we dont agree with what goes on in their...but we don't. Why? Is it facebook? Do they care about being responsible especially in Africa? Is it government? And just how far can the government reach? Or should we just relax and face the beginning of the end by having an attitude of anything goes as long we have internet. Nice day everyone. Sent from Yahoo Mail on Android _______________________________________________ kictanet mailing list kictanet@lists.kictanet.or.ke https://lists.kictanet.or.ke/mailman/listinfo/kictanet Twitter: http://twitter.com/kictanet Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/KICTANet/ Domain Registration sponsored by www.eacdirectory.co.ke Unsubscribe or change your options at https://lists.kictanet.or.ke/mailman/options/kictanet/pmaina2000%40yahoo.com The Kenya ICT Action Network (KICTANet) is a multi-stakeholder platform for people and institutions interested and involved in ICT policy and regulation. The network aims to act as a catalyst for reform in the ICT sector in support of the national aim of ICT enabled growth and development. KICTANetiquette : Adhere to the same standards of acceptable behaviors online that you follow in real life: respect people's times and bandwidth, share knowledge, don't flame or abuse or personalize, respect privacy, do not spam, do not market your wares or qualifications. _______________________________________________ kictanet mailing list kictanet@lists.kictanet.or.ke https://lists.kictanet.or.ke/mailman/listinfo/kictanet Twitter: http://twitter.com/kictanet Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/KICTANet/ Domain Registration sponsored by www.eacdirectory.co.ke Unsubscribe or change your options at https://lists.kictanet.or.ke/mailman/options/kictanet/info%40alyhussein.com The Kenya ICT Action Network (KICTANet) is a multi-stakeholder platform for people and institutions interested and involved in ICT policy and regulation. The network aims to act as a catalyst for reform in the ICT sector in support of the national aim of ICT enabled growth and development. KICTANetiquette : Adhere to the same standards of acceptable behaviors online that you follow in real life: respect people's times and bandwidth, share knowledge, don't flame or abuse or personalize, respect privacy, do not spam, do not market your wares or qualifications.
At no point did I say that the community has a duty to report or that the community is to blame. Facebook responds to the community when the report. This gives the community the power to let us know when something is wrong. Why would anyone *not* want the ability to report? Would it be preferable to have a platform where every single post, picture, comment is subject to pre-clearance, by Facebook? I find it odd that anyone interested in free expression would want such a model. From: kictanet <kictanet-bounces+ebeleokobi=fb.com@lists.kictanet.or.ke> on behalf of "Patrick A. M. Maina via kictanet" <kictanet@lists.kictanet.or.ke> Reply-To: "Patrick A. M. Maina" <pmaina2000@yahoo.com>, KICTAnet ICT Policy Discussions <kictanet@lists.kictanet.or.ke> Date: Tuesday, November 20, 2018 at 2:44 PM To: Ebele Okobi <ebeleokobi@fb.com> Cc: "Patrick A. M. Maina" <pmaina2000@yahoo.com> Subject: Re: [kictanet] [should the victims be blamed? aren't platforms responsible as enablers and amplifiers?] Child marriage on facebook Some responses on this topic raise some interesting and important issues: 1. Do social media/messaging platform play a role in crime as amplifiers, enablers? 2. Would crimes be harder to pull off if such platform could, through enhanced technical functionality (which might not necessarily be profitable), not be easily used for organized criminal purpose? 3. Does the community owe the platform a duty to report (as alluded here, such that the community can be blamed for platform misuse)? How much blame does the community share? 4. If indeed the community has a duty to help FB police its platform, will FB also share its revenues with the community seeing as they are its informal "employees" as well? Or are they only buddies in bad times but strangers in good times? 5. Do (or should) victims of social media enabled harm (including, say, businesses that lose sales due to chaos or governments whose economies are effectively sabotaged) have recourse against the platform owner? To what extent? Who else should own the problem and why? I think the "deflect blame to the victims" script is unwise and could backfire. It would probably cause an uproar if used in more assertive parts of the world (i.e. in developed countries/regions). Good day listers, Patrick. On Tuesday, November 20, 2018, 3:52:31 PM GMT+3, Wainaina Mungai via kictanet <kictanet@lists.kictanet.or.ke> wrote: Hi, Facebook as increased their staff significantly to help police what is posted. We may want not to blame the medium used and focus more on addressing the culture of marrying off children of any gender in any country. That way, we remain focussed on 'children's rights'. The main offenders in this case are the "sellers" and "buyers" who took part in the auction. In the end, the extent of regulation will depend on mutistakeholder negotiations on the balance between an open Internet for all and the need to protect privacy, security and human rights online. Wainaina On 20 Nov 2018 15:18, evelyne wanjiku via kictanet <kictanet@lists.kictanet.or.ke> wrote: Hi listers, Im following a debate on cnn about this south sudanese 'baby bride' who was auctioned on fb. It brings me back to this question, who should regulate facebook? Some argue fb is too big to regulate all the things that happen on their platform. Who should police fb? Is it us? We have power to shut down our pages if we dont agree with what goes on in their...but we don't. Why? Is it facebook? Do they care about being responsible especially in Africa? Is it government? And just how far can the government reach? Or should we just relax and face the beginning of the end by having an attitude of anything goes as long we have internet. Nice day everyone. Sent from Yahoo Mail on Android<https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=https-3A__go.onelink.me_107872968-3Fpid-3DInProduct-26c-3DGlobal-5FInternal-5FYGrowth-5FAndroidEmailSig-5F-5FAndroidUsers-26af-5Fwl-3Dym-26af-5Fsub1-3DInternal-26af-5Fsub2-3DGlobal-5FYGrowth-26af-5Fsub3-3DEmailSignature&d=DwMFaQ&c=5VD0RTtNlTh3ycd41b3MUw&r=ArvepG4_wcNu_X9xi3nb_Xa9WsGLVfmK6mwPdVONOTE&m=Nigt8RJiRKFRYalz6qcspoN5s9aV8sUPUStJNxQ09c0&s=I4IOH2koaO6-NJjPRvRdexDJ7Ql-pcmXaIrU78dSQr0&e=> _______________________________________________ kictanet mailing list kictanet@lists.kictanet.or.ke<mailto:kictanet@lists.kictanet.or.ke> https://lists.kictanet.or.ke/mailman/listinfo/kictanet<https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=https-3A__lists.kictanet.or.ke_mailman_listinfo_kictanet&d=DwMFaQ&c=5VD0RTtNlTh3ycd41b3MUw&r=ArvepG4_wcNu_X9xi3nb_Xa9WsGLVfmK6mwPdVONOTE&m=Nigt8RJiRKFRYalz6qcspoN5s9aV8sUPUStJNxQ09c0&s=1IkGlwtZrFSlDdArXzLxsAEC8Czi6lfk7MdtMKSwIBg&e=> Twitter: http://twitter.com/kictanet<https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=http-3A__twitter.com_kictanet&d=DwMFaQ&c=5VD0RTtNlTh3ycd41b3MUw&r=ArvepG4_wcNu_X9xi3nb_Xa9WsGLVfmK6mwPdVONOTE&m=Nigt8RJiRKFRYalz6qcspoN5s9aV8sUPUStJNxQ09c0&s=7xCG8z1Jt76BbPAx71u7hm523bjmRI7_a7K8mpxlPZ0&e=> Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/KICTANet/ Domain Registration sponsored by www.eacdirectory.co.ke Unsubscribe or change your options at https://lists.kictanet.or.ke/mailman/options/kictanet/pmaina2000%40yahoo.com<https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=https-3A__lists.kictanet.or.ke_mailman_options_kictanet_pmaina2000-2540yahoo.com&d=DwMFaQ&c=5VD0RTtNlTh3ycd41b3MUw&r=ArvepG4_wcNu_X9xi3nb_Xa9WsGLVfmK6mwPdVONOTE&m=Nigt8RJiRKFRYalz6qcspoN5s9aV8sUPUStJNxQ09c0&s=FsTedFucoLNyMt0sShCdaLskvAmiS2lA5uq_6-r4EEw&e=> The Kenya ICT Action Network (KICTANet) is a multi-stakeholder platform for people and institutions interested and involved in ICT policy and regulation. The network aims to act as a catalyst for reform in the ICT sector in support of the national aim of ICT enabled growth and development. KICTANetiquette : Adhere to the same standards of acceptable behaviors online that you follow in real life: respect people's times and bandwidth, share knowledge, don't flame or abuse or personalize, respect privacy, do not spam, do not market your wares or qualifications.
It kinda looks a bit like an *nudged* duty.. :-) otherwise, why would low levels of reporting be an issue if the system does not heavily *rely* on community reporting (yay! free labor!)? Doesn't the community have its own engagements to focus on and should facebook not respect that? Are you sure that FB truly supports free expression or is it not that its just cheaper (more profitable) to offload policing to the community? If the FB platform truly supported "free expression" things would be more complicated because instead of takedowns, you would use an *educating model* which is much harder to pull off. Sidenotes:a. I'm curious how FB defines "free expression".b. On the Child marriage, FB acted after it was too late (girl had been sold off). This suggests heavy reliance on community policing. Is this a form of wilful negligence on the platform part because by now FB is aware that it is being misused for anti-social purposes? Good evening.Patrick. "We continue to evolve our ability to detect violations on our platforms, but YES, it is YOU, the community, who helps to police the content on Facebook. I continue to be struck by the incredibly low levels of reporting across our Continent. We continue to develop educational materials, but I am always surprised at how few people, even in circles like this, know to report bad content into the platform." On Tuesday, November 20, 2018, 6:14:11 PM GMT+3, Ebele Okobi <ebeleokobi@fb.com> wrote: At no point did I say that the community has a duty to report or that the community is to blame. Facebook responds to the community when the report. This gives the community the power to let us know when something is wrong. Why would anyone *not* want the ability to report? Would it be preferable to have a platform where every single post, picture, comment is subject to pre-clearance, by Facebook? I find it odd that anyone interested in free expression would want such a model. From: kictanet <kictanet-bounces+ebeleokobi=fb.com@lists.kictanet.or.ke> on behalf of "Patrick A. M. Maina via kictanet" <kictanet@lists.kictanet.or.ke> Reply-To: "Patrick A. M. Maina" <pmaina2000@yahoo.com>, KICTAnet ICT Policy Discussions <kictanet@lists.kictanet.or.ke> Date: Tuesday, November 20, 2018 at 2:44 PM To: Ebele Okobi <ebeleokobi@fb.com> Cc: "Patrick A. M. Maina" <pmaina2000@yahoo.com> Subject: Re: [kictanet] [should the victims be blamed? aren't platforms responsible as enablers and amplifiers?] Child marriage on facebook Some responses on this topic raise some interesting and important issues: 1. Do social media/messaging platform play a role in crime as amplifiers, enablers? 2. Would crimes be harder to pull off if such platform could, through enhanced technical functionality (which might not necessarily be profitable), not be easily used for organized criminal purpose? 3. Does the community owe the platform a duty to report (as alluded here, such that the community can be blamed for platform misuse)? How much blame does the community share? 4. If indeed the community has a duty to help FB police its platform, will FB also share its revenues with the community seeing as they are its informal "employees" as well? Or are they only buddies in bad times but strangers in good times? 5. Do (or should) victims of social media enabled harm (including, say, businesses that lose sales due to chaos or governments whose economies are effectively sabotaged) have recourse against the platform owner? To what extent? Who else should own the problem and why? I think the "deflect blame to the victims" script is unwise and could backfire. It would probably cause an uproar if used in more assertive parts of the world (i.e. in developed countries/regions). Good day listers, Patrick. On Tuesday, November 20, 2018, 3:52:31 PM GMT+3, Wainaina Mungai via kictanet <kictanet@lists.kictanet.or.ke> wrote: Hi, Facebook as increased their staff significantly to help police what is posted. We may want not to blame the medium used and focus more on addressing the culture of marrying off children of any gender in any country. That way, we remain focussed on 'children's rights'. The main offenders in this case are the "sellers" and "buyers" who took part in the auction. In the end, the extent of regulation will depend on mutistakeholder negotiations on the balance between an open Internet for all and the need to protect privacy, security and human rights online. Wainaina On 20 Nov 2018 15:18, evelyne wanjiku via kictanet <kictanet@lists.kictanet.or.ke> wrote: Hi listers, Im following a debate on cnn about this south sudanese 'baby bride' who was auctioned on fb. It brings me back to this question, who should regulate facebook? Some argue fb is too big to regulate all the things that happen on their platform. Who should police fb? Is it us? We have power to shut down our pages if we dont agree with what goes on in their...but we don't. Why? Is it facebook? Do they care about being responsible especially in Africa? Is it government? And just how far can the government reach? Or should we just relax and face the beginning of the end by having an attitude of anything goes as long we have internet. Nice day everyone. Sent from Yahoo Mail on Android _______________________________________________ kictanet mailing list kictanet@lists.kictanet.or.ke https://lists.kictanet.or.ke/mailman/listinfo/kictanet Twitter: http://twitter.com/kictanet Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/KICTANet/ Domain Registration sponsored by www.eacdirectory.co.ke Unsubscribe or change your options at https://lists.kictanet.or.ke/mailman/options/kictanet/pmaina2000%40yahoo.com The Kenya ICT Action Network (KICTANet) is a multi-stakeholder platform for people and institutions interested and involved in ICT policy and regulation. The network aims to act as a catalyst for reform in the ICT sector in support of the national aim of ICT enabled growth and development. KICTANetiquette : Adhere to the same standards of acceptable behaviors online that you follow in real life: respect people's times and bandwidth, share knowledge, don't flame or abuse or personalize, respect privacy, do not spam, do not market your wares or qualifications.
What is an “educating” model? How do you think policing works in society? Are there police assigned to each individual, actively monitoring each? How do you think actual communities work? If not for community, exactly how should a platform of 2.4 billion people posting billions of pieces of content per hour, the vast majority of which is completely innocuous, work, in your view? On Nov 20, 2018, at 3:43 PM, Patrick A. M. Maina <pmaina2000@yahoo.com<mailto:pmaina2000@yahoo.com>> wrote: It kinda looks a bit like an *nudged* duty.. :-) otherwise, why would low levels of reporting be an issue if the system does not heavily *rely* on community reporting (yay! free labor!)? Doesn't the community have its own engagements to focus on and should facebook not respect that? Are you sure that FB truly supports free expression or is it not that its just cheaper (more profitable) to offload policing to the community? If the FB platform truly supported "free expression" things would be more complicated because instead of takedowns, you would use an *educating model* which is much harder to pull off. Sidenotes: a. I'm curious how FB defines "free expression". b. On the Child marriage, FB acted after it was too late (girl had been sold off). This suggests heavy reliance on community policing. Is this a form of wilful negligence on the platform part because by now FB is aware that it is being misused for anti-social purposes? Good evening. Patrick. "We continue to evolve our ability to detect violations on our platforms, but YES, it is YOU, the community, who helps to police the content on Facebook. I continue to be struck by the incredibly low levels of reporting across our Continent. We continue to develop educational materials, but I am always surprised at how few people, even in circles like this, know to report bad content into the platform." On Tuesday, November 20, 2018, 6:14:11 PM GMT+3, Ebele Okobi <ebeleokobi@fb.com<mailto:ebeleokobi@fb.com>> wrote: At no point did I say that the community has a duty to report or that the community is to blame. Facebook responds to the community when the report. This gives the community the power to let us know when something is wrong. Why would anyone *not* want the ability to report? Would it be preferable to have a platform where every single post, picture, comment is subject to pre-clearance, by Facebook? I find it odd that anyone interested in free expression would want such a model. From: kictanet <kictanet-bounces+ebeleokobi=fb.com@lists.kictanet.or.ke<mailto:kictanet-bounces+ebeleokobi=fb.com@lists.kictanet.or.ke>> on behalf of "Patrick A. M. Maina via kictanet" <kictanet@lists.kictanet.or.ke<mailto:kictanet@lists.kictanet.or.ke>> Reply-To: "Patrick A. M. Maina" <pmaina2000@yahoo.com<mailto:pmaina2000@yahoo.com>>, KICTAnet ICT Policy Discussions <kictanet@lists.kictanet.or.ke<mailto:kictanet@lists.kictanet.or.ke>> Date: Tuesday, November 20, 2018 at 2:44 PM To: Ebele Okobi <ebeleokobi@fb.com<mailto:ebeleokobi@fb.com>> Cc: "Patrick A. M. Maina" <pmaina2000@yahoo.com<mailto:pmaina2000@yahoo.com>> Subject: Re: [kictanet] [should the victims be blamed? aren't platforms responsible as enablers and amplifiers?] Child marriage on facebook Some responses on this topic raise some interesting and important issues: 1. Do social media/messaging platform play a role in crime as amplifiers, enablers? 2. Would crimes be harder to pull off if such platform could, through enhanced technical functionality (which might not necessarily be profitable), not be easily used for organized criminal purpose? 3. Does the community owe the platform a duty to report (as alluded here, such that the community can be blamed for platform misuse)? How much blame does the community share? 4. If indeed the community has a duty to help FB police its platform, will FB also share its revenues with the community seeing as they are its informal "employees" as well? Or are they only buddies in bad times but strangers in good times? 5. Do (or should) victims of social media enabled harm (including, say, businesses that lose sales due to chaos or governments whose economies are effectively sabotaged) have recourse against the platform owner? To what extent? Who else should own the problem and why? I think the "deflect blame to the victims" script is unwise and could backfire. It would probably cause an uproar if used in more assertive parts of the world (i.e. in developed countries/regions). Good day listers, Patrick. On Tuesday, November 20, 2018, 3:52:31 PM GMT+3, Wainaina Mungai via kictanet <kictanet@lists.kictanet.or.ke<mailto:kictanet@lists.kictanet.or.ke>> wrote: Hi, Facebook as increased their staff significantly to help police what is posted. We may want not to blame the medium used and focus more on addressing the culture of marrying off children of any gender in any country. That way, we remain focussed on 'children's rights'. The main offenders in this case are the "sellers" and "buyers" who took part in the auction. In the end, the extent of regulation will depend on mutistakeholder negotiations on the balance between an open Internet for all and the need to protect privacy, security and human rights online. Wainaina On 20 Nov 2018 15:18, evelyne wanjiku via kictanet <kictanet@lists.kictanet.or.ke<mailto:kictanet@lists.kictanet.or.ke>> wrote: Hi listers, Im following a debate on cnn about this south sudanese 'baby bride' who was auctioned on fb. It brings me back to this question, who should regulate facebook? Some argue fb is too big to regulate all the things that happen on their platform. Who should police fb? Is it us? We have power to shut down our pages if we dont agree with what goes on in their...but we don't. Why? Is it facebook? Do they care about being responsible especially in Africa? Is it government? And just how far can the government reach? Or should we just relax and face the beginning of the end by having an attitude of anything goes as long we have internet. Nice day everyone. Sent from Yahoo Mail on Android<https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=https-3A__go.onelink.me_107872968-3Fpid-3DInProduct-26c-3DGlobal-5FInternal-5FYGrowth-5FAndroidEmailSig-5F-5FAndroidUsers-26af-5Fwl-3Dym-26af-5Fsub1-3DInternal-26af-5Fsub2-3DGlobal-5FYGrowth-26af-5Fsub3-3DEmailSignature&d=DwMFaQ&c=5VD0RTtNlTh3ycd41b3MUw&r=ArvepG4_wcNu_X9xi3nb_Xa9WsGLVfmK6mwPdVONOTE&m=Nigt8RJiRKFRYalz6qcspoN5s9aV8sUPUStJNxQ09c0&s=I4IOH2koaO6-NJjPRvRdexDJ7Ql-pcmXaIrU78dSQr0&e=> _______________________________________________ kictanet mailing list kictanet@lists.kictanet.or.ke<mailto:kictanet@lists.kictanet.or.ke> https://lists.kictanet.or.ke/mailman/listinfo/kictanet<https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=https-3A__lists.kictanet.or.ke_mailman_listinfo_kictanet&d=DwMFaQ&c=5VD0RTtNlTh3ycd41b3MUw&r=ArvepG4_wcNu_X9xi3nb_Xa9WsGLVfmK6mwPdVONOTE&m=Nigt8RJiRKFRYalz6qcspoN5s9aV8sUPUStJNxQ09c0&s=1IkGlwtZrFSlDdArXzLxsAEC8Czi6lfk7MdtMKSwIBg&e=> Twitter: http://twitter.com/kictanet<https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=http-3A__twitter.com_kictanet&d=DwMFaQ&c=5VD0RTtNlTh3ycd41b3MUw&r=ArvepG4_wcNu_X9xi3nb_Xa9WsGLVfmK6mwPdVONOTE&m=Nigt8RJiRKFRYalz6qcspoN5s9aV8sUPUStJNxQ09c0&s=7xCG8z1Jt76BbPAx71u7hm523bjmRI7_a7K8mpxlPZ0&e=> Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/KICTANet/ Domain Registration sponsored by www.eacdirectory.co.ke<http://www.eacdirectory.co.ke> Unsubscribe or change your options at https://lists.kictanet.or.ke/mailman/options/kictanet/pmaina2000%40yahoo.com<https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=https-3A__lists.kictanet.or.ke_mailman_options_kictanet_pmaina2000-2540yahoo.com&d=DwMFaQ&c=5VD0RTtNlTh3ycd41b3MUw&r=ArvepG4_wcNu_X9xi3nb_Xa9WsGLVfmK6mwPdVONOTE&m=Nigt8RJiRKFRYalz6qcspoN5s9aV8sUPUStJNxQ09c0&s=FsTedFucoLNyMt0sShCdaLskvAmiS2lA5uq_6-r4EEw&e=> The Kenya ICT Action Network (KICTANet) is a multi-stakeholder platform for people and institutions interested and involved in ICT policy and regulation. The network aims to act as a catalyst for reform in the ICT sector in support of the national aim of ICT enabled growth and development. KICTANetiquette : Adhere to the same standards of acceptable behaviors online that you follow in real life: respect people's times and bandwidth, share knowledge, don't flame or abuse or personalize, respect privacy, do not spam, do not market your wares or qualifications.
On the "educating model", I can do some ad-hoc paid consulting for you guys if you haven't thought of it. Lets discuss offline if interested. I don't understand the society argument... Facebook is not "society". It is a *for-profit business entity* founded on what looks like a predatory business model which exploits human/society's weakness (e.g. narcissism, personal insecurities, reward mechanisms in the brain etc) for monetized data and engagement. There's an interesting pattern that I hadn't originally picked on... It looks like mega corporations embrace pseudo-communism ideals to avoid owning problems that *they* created/exacerbated: "Beloved users, the problem belongs to all of us, because we need each other as a community. So each one of you should give mega-corp a free lunch because its good for you".. but when it comes to profits, they revert to pure capitalism "our profits belong to shareholders only. we are capitalists. no free lunches!". Take ownership. Opinion today: Facebook's excessive focus on profits | | | | | | | | | | | Opinion today: Facebook's excessive focus on profits Regulation looms for social media — much as big banks after the financial crisis | | | On Tuesday, November 20, 2018, 6:53:35 PM GMT+3, Ebele Okobi <ebeleokobi@fb.com> wrote: What is an “educating” model? How do you think policing works in society?Are there police assigned to each individual, actively monitoring each?How do you think actual communities work? If not for community, exactly how should a platform of 2.4 billion people posting billions of pieces of content per hour, the vast majority of which is completely innocuous, work, in your view? On Nov 20, 2018, at 3:43 PM, Patrick A. M. Maina <pmaina2000@yahoo.com> wrote: It kinda looks a bit like an *nudged* duty.. :-) otherwise, why would low levels of reporting be an issue if the system does not heavily *rely* on community reporting (yay! free labor!)? Doesn't the community have its own engagements to focus on and should facebook not respect that? Are you sure that FB truly supports free expression or is it not that its just cheaper (more profitable) to offload policing to the community? If the FB platform truly supported "free expression" things would be more complicated because instead of takedowns, you would use an *educating model* which is much harder to pull off. Sidenotes:a. I'm curious how FB defines "free expression".b. On the Child marriage, FB acted after it was too late (girl had been sold off). This suggests heavy reliance on community policing. Is this a form of wilful negligence on the platform part because by now FB is aware that it is being misused for anti-social purposes? Good evening.Patrick. "We continue to evolve our ability to detect violations on our platforms, but YES, it is YOU, the community, who helps to police the content on Facebook. I continue to be struck by the incredibly low levels of reporting across our Continent. We continue to develop educational materials, but I am always surprised at how few people, even in circles like this, know to report bad content into the platform." On Tuesday, November 20, 2018, 6:14:11 PM GMT+3, Ebele Okobi <ebeleokobi@fb.com> wrote: At no point did I say that the community has a duty to report or that the community is to blame. Facebook responds to the community when the report. This gives the community the power to let us know when something is wrong. Why would anyone *not* want the ability to report? Would it be preferable to have a platform where every single post, picture, comment is subject to pre-clearance, by Facebook? I find it odd that anyone interested in free expression would want such a model. From:kictanet <kictanet-bounces+ebeleokobi=fb.com@lists.kictanet.or.ke> on behalf of "Patrick A. M. Maina via kictanet" <kictanet@lists.kictanet.or.ke> Reply-To: "Patrick A. M. Maina" <pmaina2000@yahoo.com>, KICTAnet ICT Policy Discussions <kictanet@lists.kictanet.or.ke> Date: Tuesday, November 20, 2018 at 2:44 PM To: Ebele Okobi <ebeleokobi@fb.com> Cc: "Patrick A. M. Maina" <pmaina2000@yahoo.com> Subject: Re: [kictanet] [should the victims be blamed? aren't platforms responsible as enablers and amplifiers?] Child marriage on facebook Some responses on this topic raise some interesting and important issues: 1. Do social media/messaging platform play a role in crime as amplifiers, enablers? 2. Would crimes be harder to pull off if such platform could, through enhanced technical functionality (which might not necessarily be profitable), not be easily used for organized criminal purpose? 3. Does the community owe the platform a duty to report (as alluded here, such that the community can be blamed for platform misuse)? How much blame does the community share? 4. If indeed the community has a duty to help FB police its platform, will FB also share its revenues with the community seeing as they are its informal "employees" as well? Or are they only buddies in bad times but strangers in good times? 5. Do (or should) victims of social media enabled harm (including, say, businesses that lose sales due to chaos or governments whose economies are effectively sabotaged) have recourse against the platform owner? To what extent? Who else should own the problem and why? I think the "deflect blame to the victims" script is unwise and could backfire. It would probably cause an uproar if used in more assertive parts of the world (i.e. in developed countries/regions). Good day listers, Patrick. On Tuesday, November 20, 2018, 3:52:31 PM GMT+3, Wainaina Mungai via kictanet <kictanet@lists.kictanet.or.ke> wrote: Hi, Facebook as increased their staff significantly to help police what is posted. We may want not to blame the medium used and focus more on addressing the culture of marrying off children of any gender in any country. That way, we remain focussed on 'children's rights'. The main offenders in this case are the "sellers" and "buyers" who took part in the auction. In the end, the extent of regulation will depend on mutistakeholder negotiations on the balance between an open Internet for all and the need to protect privacy, security and human rights online. Wainaina On 20 Nov 2018 15:18, evelyne wanjiku via kictanet <kictanet@lists.kictanet.or.ke> wrote: Hi listers, Im following a debate on cnn about this south sudanese 'baby bride' who was auctioned on fb. It brings me back to this question, who should regulate facebook? Some argue fb is too big to regulate all the things that happen on their platform. Who should police fb? Is it us? We have power to shut down our pages if we dont agree with what goes on in their...but we don't. Why? Is it facebook? Do they care about being responsible especially in Africa? Is it government? And just how far can the government reach? Or should we just relax and face the beginning of the end by having an attitude of anything goes as long we have internet. Nice day everyone. Sent from Yahoo Mail on Android _______________________________________________ kictanet mailing list kictanet@lists.kictanet.or.ke https://lists.kictanet.or.ke/mailman/listinfo/kictanet Twitter: http://twitter.com/kictanet Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/KICTANet/ Domain Registration sponsored by www.eacdirectory.co.ke Unsubscribe or change your options at https://lists.kictanet.or.ke/mailman/options/kictanet/pmaina2000%40yahoo.com The Kenya ICT Action Network (KICTANet) is a multi-stakeholder platform for people and institutions interested and involved in ICT policy and regulation. The network aims to act as a catalyst for reform in the ICT sector in support of the national aim of ICT enabled growth and development. KICTANetiquette : Adhere to the same standards of acceptable behaviors online that you follow in real life: respect people's times and bandwidth, share knowledge, don't flame or abuse or personalize, respect privacy, do not spam, do not market your wares or qualifications.
You haven’t answered any of my questions. I have repasted, for reference- Would it be preferable to have a platform where every single post, picture, comment is subject to pre-clearance, by Facebook? How do you think policing works in society? Are there police assigned to each individual, actively monitoring each? How do you think actual communities work? If not for community, exactly how should a platform of 2.4 billion people posting billions of pieces of content per hour, the vast majority of which is completely innocuous, work, in your view? What is an “educating” model? On Nov 20, 2018, at 4:45 PM, Patrick A. M. Maina <pmaina2000@yahoo.com<mailto:pmaina2000@yahoo.com>> wrote: On the "educating model", I can do some ad-hoc paid consulting for you guys if you haven't thought of it. Lets discuss offline if interested. I don't understand the society argument... Facebook is not "society". It is a *for-profit business entity* founded on what looks like a predatory business model which exploits human/society's weakness (e.g. narcissism, personal insecurities, reward mechanisms in the brain etc) for monetized data and engagement. There's an interesting pattern that I hadn't originally picked on... It looks like mega corporations embrace pseudo-communism ideals to avoid owning problems that *they* created/exacerbated: "Beloved users, the problem belongs to all of us, because we need each other as a community. So each one of you should give mega-corp a free lunch because its good for you".. but when it comes to profits, they revert to pure capitalism "our profits belong to shareholders only. we are capitalists. no free lunches!". Take ownership. Opinion today: Facebook's excessive focus on profits<https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=https-3A__www.ft.com_content_38a92d42-2Deba1-2D11e8-2D89c8-2Dd36339d835c0&d=DwMFaQ&c=5VD0RTtNlTh3ycd41b3MUw&r=ArvepG4_wcNu_X9xi3nb_Xa9WsGLVfmK6mwPdVONOTE&m=ND7ZApITUWcY-AGWW-_XmLkHgYwmBASHLBNQMyrgsic&s=-qg1_epre_4j91N-fAFREat3MAWl9VoUnJoc2YcDx8Y&e=> <https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=https-3A__www.ft.com_content_38a92d42-2Deba1-2D11e8-2D89c8-2Dd36339d835c0&d=DwMFaQ&c=5VD0RTtNlTh3ycd41b3MUw&r=ArvepG4_wcNu_X9xi3nb_Xa9WsGLVfmK6mwPdVONOTE&m=ND7ZApITUWcY-AGWW-_XmLkHgYwmBASHLBNQMyrgsic&s=-qg1_epre_4j91N-fAFREat3MAWl9VoUnJoc2YcDx8Y&e=> Opinion today: Facebook's excessive focus on profits Regulation looms for social media — much as big banks after the financial crisis On Tuesday, November 20, 2018, 6:53:35 PM GMT+3, Ebele Okobi <ebeleokobi@fb.com<mailto:ebeleokobi@fb.com>> wrote: What is an “educating” model? How do you think policing works in society? Are there police assigned to each individual, actively monitoring each? How do you think actual communities work? If not for community, exactly how should a platform of 2.4 billion people posting billions of pieces of content per hour, the vast majority of which is completely innocuous, work, in your view? On Nov 20, 2018, at 3:43 PM, Patrick A. M. Maina <pmaina2000@yahoo.com<mailto:pmaina2000@yahoo.com>> wrote: It kinda looks a bit like an *nudged* duty.. :-) otherwise, why would low levels of reporting be an issue if the system does not heavily *rely* on community reporting (yay! free labor!)? Doesn't the community have its own engagements to focus on and should facebook not respect that? Are you sure that FB truly supports free expression or is it not that its just cheaper (more profitable) to offload policing to the community? If the FB platform truly supported "free expression" things would be more complicated because instead of takedowns, you would use an *educating model* which is much harder to pull off. Sidenotes: a. I'm curious how FB defines "free expression". b. On the Child marriage, FB acted after it was too late (girl had been sold off). This suggests heavy reliance on community policing. Is this a form of wilful negligence on the platform part because by now FB is aware that it is being misused for anti-social purposes? Good evening. Patrick. "We continue to evolve our ability to detect violations on our platforms, but YES, it is YOU, the community, who helps to police the content on Facebook. I continue to be struck by the incredibly low levels of reporting across our Continent. We continue to develop educational materials, but I am always surprised at how few people, even in circles like this, know to report bad content into the platform." On Tuesday, November 20, 2018, 6:14:11 PM GMT+3, Ebele Okobi <ebeleokobi@fb.com<mailto:ebeleokobi@fb.com>> wrote: At no point did I say that the community has a duty to report or that the community is to blame. Facebook responds to the community when the report. This gives the community the power to let us know when something is wrong. Why would anyone *not* want the ability to report? Would it be preferable to have a platform where every single post, picture, comment is subject to pre-clearance, by Facebook? I find it odd that anyone interested in free expression would want such a model. From: kictanet <kictanet-bounces+ebeleokobi=fb.com@lists.kictanet.or.ke<mailto:kictanet-bounces+ebeleokobi=fb.com@lists.kictanet.or.ke>> on behalf of "Patrick A. M. Maina via kictanet" <kictanet@lists.kictanet.or.ke<mailto:kictanet@lists.kictanet.or.ke>> Reply-To: "Patrick A. M. Maina" <pmaina2000@yahoo.com<mailto:pmaina2000@yahoo.com>>, KICTAnet ICT Policy Discussions <kictanet@lists.kictanet.or.ke<mailto:kictanet@lists.kictanet.or.ke>> Date: Tuesday, November 20, 2018 at 2:44 PM To: Ebele Okobi <ebeleokobi@fb.com<mailto:ebeleokobi@fb.com>> Cc: "Patrick A. M. Maina" <pmaina2000@yahoo.com<mailto:pmaina2000@yahoo.com>> Subject: Re: [kictanet] [should the victims be blamed? aren't platforms responsible as enablers and amplifiers?] Child marriage on facebook Some responses on this topic raise some interesting and important issues: 1. Do social media/messaging platform play a role in crime as amplifiers, enablers? 2. Would crimes be harder to pull off if such platform could, through enhanced technical functionality (which might not necessarily be profitable), not be easily used for organized criminal purpose? 3. Does the community owe the platform a duty to report (as alluded here, such that the community can be blamed for platform misuse)? How much blame does the community share? 4. If indeed the community has a duty to help FB police its platform, will FB also share its revenues with the community seeing as they are its informal "employees" as well? Or are they only buddies in bad times but strangers in good times? 5. Do (or should) victims of social media enabled harm (including, say, businesses that lose sales due to chaos or governments whose economies are effectively sabotaged) have recourse against the platform owner? To what extent? Who else should own the problem and why? I think the "deflect blame to the victims" script is unwise and could backfire. It would probably cause an uproar if used in more assertive parts of the world (i.e. in developed countries/regions). Good day listers, Patrick. On Tuesday, November 20, 2018, 3:52:31 PM GMT+3, Wainaina Mungai via kictanet <kictanet@lists.kictanet.or.ke<mailto:kictanet@lists.kictanet.or.ke>> wrote: Hi, Facebook as increased their staff significantly to help police what is posted. We may want not to blame the medium used and focus more on addressing the culture of marrying off children of any gender in any country. That way, we remain focussed on 'children's rights'. The main offenders in this case are the "sellers" and "buyers" who took part in the auction. In the end, the extent of regulation will depend on mutistakeholder negotiations on the balance between an open Internet for all and the need to protect privacy, security and human rights online. Wainaina On 20 Nov 2018 15:18, evelyne wanjiku via kictanet <kictanet@lists.kictanet.or.ke<mailto:kictanet@lists.kictanet.or.ke>> wrote: Hi listers, Im following a debate on cnn about this south sudanese 'baby bride' who was auctioned on fb. It brings me back to this question, who should regulate facebook? Some argue fb is too big to regulate all the things that happen on their platform. Who should police fb? Is it us? We have power to shut down our pages if we dont agree with what goes on in their...but we don't. Why? Is it facebook? Do they care about being responsible especially in Africa? Is it government? And just how far can the government reach? Or should we just relax and face the beginning of the end by having an attitude of anything goes as long we have internet. Nice day everyone. Sent from Yahoo Mail on Android<https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=https-3A__go.onelink.me_107872968-3Fpid-3DInProduct-26c-3DGlobal-5FInternal-5FYGrowth-5FAndroidEmailSig-5F-5FAndroidUsers-26af-5Fwl-3Dym-26af-5Fsub1-3DInternal-26af-5Fsub2-3DGlobal-5FYGrowth-26af-5Fsub3-3DEmailSignature&d=DwMFaQ&c=5VD0RTtNlTh3ycd41b3MUw&r=ArvepG4_wcNu_X9xi3nb_Xa9WsGLVfmK6mwPdVONOTE&m=Nigt8RJiRKFRYalz6qcspoN5s9aV8sUPUStJNxQ09c0&s=I4IOH2koaO6-NJjPRvRdexDJ7Ql-pcmXaIrU78dSQr0&e=> _______________________________________________ kictanet mailing list kictanet@lists.kictanet.or.ke<mailto:kictanet@lists.kictanet.or.ke> https://lists.kictanet.or.ke/mailman/listinfo/kictanet<https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=https-3A__lists.kictanet.or.ke_mailman_listinfo_kictanet&d=DwMFaQ&c=5VD0RTtNlTh3ycd41b3MUw&r=ArvepG4_wcNu_X9xi3nb_Xa9WsGLVfmK6mwPdVONOTE&m=Nigt8RJiRKFRYalz6qcspoN5s9aV8sUPUStJNxQ09c0&s=1IkGlwtZrFSlDdArXzLxsAEC8Czi6lfk7MdtMKSwIBg&e=> Twitter: http://twitter.com/kictanet<https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=http-3A__twitter.com_kictanet&d=DwMFaQ&c=5VD0RTtNlTh3ycd41b3MUw&r=ArvepG4_wcNu_X9xi3nb_Xa9WsGLVfmK6mwPdVONOTE&m=Nigt8RJiRKFRYalz6qcspoN5s9aV8sUPUStJNxQ09c0&s=7xCG8z1Jt76BbPAx71u7hm523bjmRI7_a7K8mpxlPZ0&e=> Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/KICTANet/ Domain Registration sponsored by www.eacdirectory.co.ke<https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=http-3A__www.eacdirectory.co.ke&d=DwMFaQ&c=5VD0RTtNlTh3ycd41b3MUw&r=ArvepG4_wcNu_X9xi3nb_Xa9WsGLVfmK6mwPdVONOTE&m=ND7ZApITUWcY-AGWW-_XmLkHgYwmBASHLBNQMyrgsic&s=hoV-MvFtkR_byHfGtk0S9IINKvi4nJoBRMEwL5SELEU&e=> Unsubscribe or change your options at https://lists.kictanet.or.ke/mailman/options/kictanet/pmaina2000%40yahoo.com<https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=https-3A__lists.kictanet.or.ke_mailman_options_kictanet_pmaina2000-2540yahoo.com&d=DwMFaQ&c=5VD0RTtNlTh3ycd41b3MUw&r=ArvepG4_wcNu_X9xi3nb_Xa9WsGLVfmK6mwPdVONOTE&m=Nigt8RJiRKFRYalz6qcspoN5s9aV8sUPUStJNxQ09c0&s=FsTedFucoLNyMt0sShCdaLskvAmiS2lA5uq_6-r4EEw&e=> The Kenya ICT Action Network (KICTANet) is a multi-stakeholder platform for people and institutions interested and involved in ICT policy and regulation. The network aims to act as a catalyst for reform in the ICT sector in support of the national aim of ICT enabled growth and development. KICTANetiquette : Adhere to the same standards of acceptable behaviors online that you follow in real life: respect people's times and bandwidth, share knowledge, don't flame or abuse or personalize, respect privacy, do not spam, do not market your wares or qualifications.
I will add-I’m not engaging to win an argument. Facebook evolves our approach continuously as a direct result of learning more. I have learned so much from fierce critics in this group and many others. So if there are specific ideas you have, or constructive criticisms, I genuinely do want to hear more. And conversely, I should think you might want to take advantage of hearing more about how the company actually works from an insider. If it’s just an exchange of stereotypes about business/vigorous company bashing you’re after, then that’s fair! It’s much less interesting to me, however, and not a great use of my time so in that case I’d leave you to it, Brother Maina. On Nov 20, 2018, at 4:53 PM, Ebele Okobi via kictanet <kictanet@lists.kictanet.or.ke<mailto:kictanet@lists.kictanet.or.ke>> wrote: You haven’t answered any of my questions. I have repasted, for reference- Would it be preferable to have a platform where every single post, picture, comment is subject to pre-clearance, by Facebook? How do you think policing works in society? Are there police assigned to each individual, actively monitoring each? How do you think actual communities work? If not for community, exactly how should a platform of 2.4 billion people posting billions of pieces of content per hour, the vast majority of which is completely innocuous, work, in your view? What is an “educating” model? On Nov 20, 2018, at 4:45 PM, Patrick A. M. Maina <pmaina2000@yahoo.com<mailto:pmaina2000@yahoo.com>> wrote: On the "educating model", I can do some ad-hoc paid consulting for you guys if you haven't thought of it. Lets discuss offline if interested. I don't understand the society argument... Facebook is not "society". It is a *for-profit business entity* founded on what looks like a predatory business model which exploits human/society's weakness (e.g. narcissism, personal insecurities, reward mechanisms in the brain etc) for monetized data and engagement. There's an interesting pattern that I hadn't originally picked on... It looks like mega corporations embrace pseudo-communism ideals to avoid owning problems that *they* created/exacerbated: "Beloved users, the problem belongs to all of us, because we need each other as a community. So each one of you should give mega-corp a free lunch because its good for you".. but when it comes to profits, they revert to pure capitalism "our profits belong to shareholders only. we are capitalists. no free lunches!". Take ownership. Opinion today: Facebook's excessive focus on profits<https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=https-3A__www.ft.com_content_38a92d42-2Deba1-2D11e8-2D89c8-2Dd36339d835c0&d=DwMFaQ&c=5VD0RTtNlTh3ycd41b3MUw&r=ArvepG4_wcNu_X9xi3nb_Xa9WsGLVfmK6mwPdVONOTE&m=ND7ZApITUWcY-AGWW-_XmLkHgYwmBASHLBNQMyrgsic&s=-qg1_epre_4j91N-fAFREat3MAWl9VoUnJoc2YcDx8Y&e=> <https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=https-3A__www.ft.com_content_38a92d42-2Deba1-2D11e8-2D89c8-2Dd36339d835c0&d=DwMFaQ&c=5VD0RTtNlTh3ycd41b3MUw&r=ArvepG4_wcNu_X9xi3nb_Xa9WsGLVfmK6mwPdVONOTE&m=ND7ZApITUWcY-AGWW-_XmLkHgYwmBASHLBNQMyrgsic&s=-qg1_epre_4j91N-fAFREat3MAWl9VoUnJoc2YcDx8Y&e=> Opinion today: Facebook's excessive focus on profits Regulation looms for social media — much as big banks after the financial crisis On Tuesday, November 20, 2018, 6:53:35 PM GMT+3, Ebele Okobi <ebeleokobi@fb.com<mailto:ebeleokobi@fb.com>> wrote: What is an “educating” model? How do you think policing works in society? Are there police assigned to each individual, actively monitoring each? How do you think actual communities work? If not for community, exactly how should a platform of 2.4 billion people posting billions of pieces of content per hour, the vast majority of which is completely innocuous, work, in your view? On Nov 20, 2018, at 3:43 PM, Patrick A. M. Maina <pmaina2000@yahoo.com<mailto:pmaina2000@yahoo.com>> wrote: It kinda looks a bit like an *nudged* duty.. :-) otherwise, why would low levels of reporting be an issue if the system does not heavily *rely* on community reporting (yay! free labor!)? Doesn't the community have its own engagements to focus on and should facebook not respect that? Are you sure that FB truly supports free expression or is it not that its just cheaper (more profitable) to offload policing to the community? If the FB platform truly supported "free expression" things would be more complicated because instead of takedowns, you would use an *educating model* which is much harder to pull off. Sidenotes: a. I'm curious how FB defines "free expression". b. On the Child marriage, FB acted after it was too late (girl had been sold off). This suggests heavy reliance on community policing. Is this a form of wilful negligence on the platform part because by now FB is aware that it is being misused for anti-social purposes? Good evening. Patrick. "We continue to evolve our ability to detect violations on our platforms, but YES, it is YOU, the community, who helps to police the content on Facebook. I continue to be struck by the incredibly low levels of reporting across our Continent. We continue to develop educational materials, but I am always surprised at how few people, even in circles like this, know to report bad content into the platform." On Tuesday, November 20, 2018, 6:14:11 PM GMT+3, Ebele Okobi <ebeleokobi@fb.com<mailto:ebeleokobi@fb.com>> wrote: At no point did I say that the community has a duty to report or that the community is to blame. Facebook responds to the community when the report. This gives the community the power to let us know when something is wrong. Why would anyone *not* want the ability to report? Would it be preferable to have a platform where every single post, picture, comment is subject to pre-clearance, by Facebook? I find it odd that anyone interested in free expression would want such a model. From: kictanet <kictanet-bounces+ebeleokobi=fb.com@lists.kictanet.or.ke<mailto:kictanet-bounces+ebeleokobi=fb.com@lists.kictanet.or.ke>> on behalf of "Patrick A. M. Maina via kictanet" <kictanet@lists.kictanet.or.ke<mailto:kictanet@lists.kictanet.or.ke>> Reply-To: "Patrick A. M. Maina" <pmaina2000@yahoo.com<mailto:pmaina2000@yahoo.com>>, KICTAnet ICT Policy Discussions <kictanet@lists.kictanet.or.ke<mailto:kictanet@lists.kictanet.or.ke>> Date: Tuesday, November 20, 2018 at 2:44 PM To: Ebele Okobi <ebeleokobi@fb.com<mailto:ebeleokobi@fb.com>> Cc: "Patrick A. M. Maina" <pmaina2000@yahoo.com<mailto:pmaina2000@yahoo.com>> Subject: Re: [kictanet] [should the victims be blamed? aren't platforms responsible as enablers and amplifiers?] Child marriage on facebook Some responses on this topic raise some interesting and important issues: 1. Do social media/messaging platform play a role in crime as amplifiers, enablers? 2. Would crimes be harder to pull off if such platform could, through enhanced technical functionality (which might not necessarily be profitable), not be easily used for organized criminal purpose? 3. Does the community owe the platform a duty to report (as alluded here, such that the community can be blamed for platform misuse)? How much blame does the community share? 4. If indeed the community has a duty to help FB police its platform, will FB also share its revenues with the community seeing as they are its informal "employees" as well? Or are they only buddies in bad times but strangers in good times? 5. Do (or should) victims of social media enabled harm (including, say, businesses that lose sales due to chaos or governments whose economies are effectively sabotaged) have recourse against the platform owner? To what extent? Who else should own the problem and why? I think the "deflect blame to the victims" script is unwise and could backfire. It would probably cause an uproar if used in more assertive parts of the world (i.e. in developed countries/regions). Good day listers, Patrick. On Tuesday, November 20, 2018, 3:52:31 PM GMT+3, Wainaina Mungai via kictanet <kictanet@lists.kictanet.or.ke<mailto:kictanet@lists.kictanet.or.ke>> wrote: Hi, Facebook as increased their staff significantly to help police what is posted. We may want not to blame the medium used and focus more on addressing the culture of marrying off children of any gender in any country. That way, we remain focussed on 'children's rights'. The main offenders in this case are the "sellers" and "buyers" who took part in the auction. In the end, the extent of regulation will depend on mutistakeholder negotiations on the balance between an open Internet for all and the need to protect privacy, security and human rights online. Wainaina On 20 Nov 2018 15:18, evelyne wanjiku via kictanet <kictanet@lists.kictanet.or.ke<mailto:kictanet@lists.kictanet.or.ke>> wrote: Hi listers, Im following a debate on cnn about this south sudanese 'baby bride' who was auctioned on fb. It brings me back to this question, who should regulate facebook? Some argue fb is too big to regulate all the things that happen on their platform. Who should police fb? Is it us? We have power to shut down our pages if we dont agree with what goes on in their...but we don't. Why? Is it facebook? Do they care about being responsible especially in Africa? Is it government? And just how far can the government reach? Or should we just relax and face the beginning of the end by having an attitude of anything goes as long we have internet. Nice day everyone. Sent from Yahoo Mail on Android<https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=https-3A__go.onelink.me_107872968-3Fpid-3DInProduct-26c-3DGlobal-5FInternal-5FYGrowth-5FAndroidEmailSig-5F-5FAndroidUsers-26af-5Fwl-3Dym-26af-5Fsub1-3DInternal-26af-5Fsub2-3DGlobal-5FYGrowth-26af-5Fsub3-3DEmailSignature&d=DwMFaQ&c=5VD0RTtNlTh3ycd41b3MUw&r=ArvepG4_wcNu_X9xi3nb_Xa9WsGLVfmK6mwPdVONOTE&m=Nigt8RJiRKFRYalz6qcspoN5s9aV8sUPUStJNxQ09c0&s=I4IOH2koaO6-NJjPRvRdexDJ7Ql-pcmXaIrU78dSQr0&e=> _______________________________________________ kictanet mailing list kictanet@lists.kictanet.or.ke<mailto:kictanet@lists.kictanet.or.ke> https://lists.kictanet.or.ke/mailman/listinfo/kictanet<https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=https-3A__lists.kictanet.or.ke_mailman_listinfo_kictanet&d=DwMFaQ&c=5VD0RTtNlTh3ycd41b3MUw&r=ArvepG4_wcNu_X9xi3nb_Xa9WsGLVfmK6mwPdVONOTE&m=Nigt8RJiRKFRYalz6qcspoN5s9aV8sUPUStJNxQ09c0&s=1IkGlwtZrFSlDdArXzLxsAEC8Czi6lfk7MdtMKSwIBg&e=> Twitter: http://twitter.com/kictanet<https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=http-3A__twitter.com_kictanet&d=DwMFaQ&c=5VD0RTtNlTh3ycd41b3MUw&r=ArvepG4_wcNu_X9xi3nb_Xa9WsGLVfmK6mwPdVONOTE&m=Nigt8RJiRKFRYalz6qcspoN5s9aV8sUPUStJNxQ09c0&s=7xCG8z1Jt76BbPAx71u7hm523bjmRI7_a7K8mpxlPZ0&e=> Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/KICTANet/ Domain Registration sponsored by www.eacdirectory.co.ke<https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=http-3A__www.eacdirectory.co.ke&d=DwMFaQ&c=5VD0RTtNlTh3ycd41b3MUw&r=ArvepG4_wcNu_X9xi3nb_Xa9WsGLVfmK6mwPdVONOTE&m=ND7ZApITUWcY-AGWW-_XmLkHgYwmBASHLBNQMyrgsic&s=hoV-MvFtkR_byHfGtk0S9IINKvi4nJoBRMEwL5SELEU&e=> Unsubscribe or change your options at https://lists.kictanet.or.ke/mailman/options/kictanet/pmaina2000%40yahoo.com<https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=https-3A__lists.kictanet.or.ke_mailman_options_kictanet_pmaina2000-2540yahoo.com&d=DwMFaQ&c=5VD0RTtNlTh3ycd41b3MUw&r=ArvepG4_wcNu_X9xi3nb_Xa9WsGLVfmK6mwPdVONOTE&m=Nigt8RJiRKFRYalz6qcspoN5s9aV8sUPUStJNxQ09c0&s=FsTedFucoLNyMt0sShCdaLskvAmiS2lA5uq_6-r4EEw&e=> The Kenya ICT Action Network (KICTANet) is a multi-stakeholder platform for people and institutions interested and involved in ICT policy and regulation. 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The network aims to act as a catalyst for reform in the ICT sector in support of the national aim of ICT enabled growth and development. KICTANetiquette : Adhere to the same standards of acceptable behaviors online that you follow in real life: respect people's times and bandwidth, share knowledge, don't flame or abuse or personalize, respect privacy, do not spam, do not market your wares or qualifications.
Happy to engage Sir but no free ideas from me. Sorry. Is there a global conspiracy to "bash" facebook? Because FB issues are trending *worldwide*... :-) Good night. On Tuesday, November 20, 2018, 8:14:01 PM GMT+3, Ebele Okobi via kictanet <kictanet@lists.kictanet.or.ke> wrote: I will add-I’m not engaging to win an argument. Facebook evolves our approach continuously as a direct result of learning more. I have learned so much from fierce critics in this group and many others. So if there are specific ideas you have, or constructive criticisms, I genuinely do want to hear more. And conversely, I should think you might want to take advantage of hearing more about how the company actually works from an insider. If it’s just an exchange of stereotypes about business/vigorous company bashing you’re after, then that’s fair! It’s much less interesting to me, however, and not a great use of my time so in that case I’d leave you to it, Brother Maina. On Nov 20, 2018, at 4:53 PM, Ebele Okobi via kictanet <kictanet@lists.kictanet.or.ke> wrote: You haven’t answered any of my questions. I have repasted, for reference- Would it be preferable to have a platform where every single post, picture, comment is subject to pre-clearance, by Facebook? How do you think policing works in society?Are there police assigned to each individual, actively monitoring each?How do you think actual communities work? If not for community, exactly how should a platform of 2.4 billion people posting billions of pieces of content per hour, the vast majority of which is completely innocuous, work, in your view? What is an “educating” model? On Nov 20, 2018, at 4:45 PM, Patrick A. M. Maina <pmaina2000@yahoo.com> wrote: On the "educating model", I can do some ad-hoc paid consulting for you guys if you haven't thought of it. Lets discuss offline if interested. I don't understand the society argument... Facebook is not "society". It is a *for-profit business entity* founded on what looks like a predatory business model which exploits human/society's weakness (e.g. narcissism, personal insecurities, reward mechanisms in the brain etc) for monetized data and engagement. There's an interesting pattern that I hadn't originally picked on... It looks like mega corporations embrace pseudo-communism ideals to avoid owning problems that *they* created/exacerbated: "Beloved users, the problem belongs to all of us, because we need each other as a community. So each one of you should give mega-corp a free lunch because its good for you".. but when it comes toprofits, they revert to pure capitalism "our profits belong to shareholders only. we are capitalists. no free lunches!". Take ownership. Opinion today: Facebook's excessive focus on profits | | | | | | | | | | | Opinion today: Facebook's excessive focus on profits Regulation looms for social media — much as big banks after the financial crisis | | | On Tuesday, November 20, 2018, 6:53:35 PM GMT+3, Ebele Okobi <ebeleokobi@fb.com> wrote: What is an “educating” model? How do you think policing works in society?Are there police assigned to each individual, actively monitoring each?How do you think actual communities work? If not for community, exactly how should a platform of 2.4 billion people posting billions of pieces of content per hour, the vast majority of which is completely innocuous, work, in your view? On Nov 20, 2018, at 3:43 PM, Patrick A. M. Maina <pmaina2000@yahoo.com> wrote: It kinda looks a bit like an *nudged* duty.. :-) otherwise, why would low levels of reporting be an issue if the system does not heavily *rely* on community reporting (yay! free labor!)? Doesn't the community have its own engagements to focus on and should facebook not respect that? Are you sure that FB truly supports free expression or is it not that its just cheaper (more profitable) to offload policing to the community? If the FB platform truly supported "free expression" things would be more complicated because instead of takedowns, you would use an *educating model* which is much harder to pull off. Sidenotes:a. I'm curious how FB defines "free expression".b. On the Child marriage, FB acted after it was too late (girl had been sold off). This suggests heavy reliance on community policing. Is this a form of wilful negligence on the platform part because by now FB is aware that it is being misused for anti-social purposes? Good evening.Patrick. "We continue to evolve our ability to detect violations on our platforms, but YES, it is YOU, the community, who helps to police the content on Facebook. I continue to be struck by the incredibly low levels of reporting across our Continent. We continue to develop educational materials, but I am always surprised at how few people, even in circles like this, know to report bad content into the platform." On Tuesday, November 20, 2018, 6:14:11 PM GMT+3, Ebele Okobi <ebeleokobi@fb.com> wrote: At no point did I say that the community has a duty to report or that the community is to blame. Facebook responds to the community when the report. This gives the community the power to let us know when something is wrong. Why would anyone *not* want the ability to report? Would it be preferable to have a platform where every single post, picture, comment is subject to pre-clearance, by Facebook? I find it odd that anyone interested in free expression would want such a model. From:kictanet <kictanet-bounces+ebeleokobi=fb.com@lists.kictanet.or.ke> on behalf of "Patrick A. M. Maina via kictanet" <kictanet@lists.kictanet.or.ke> Reply-To: "Patrick A. M. Maina" <pmaina2000@yahoo.com>, KICTAnet ICT Policy Discussions <kictanet@lists.kictanet.or.ke> Date: Tuesday, November 20, 2018 at 2:44 PM To: Ebele Okobi <ebeleokobi@fb.com> Cc: "Patrick A. M. Maina" <pmaina2000@yahoo.com> Subject: Re: [kictanet] [should the victims be blamed? aren't platforms responsible as enablers and amplifiers?] Child marriage on facebook Some responses on this topic raise some interesting and important issues: 1. Do social media/messaging platform play a role in crime as amplifiers, enablers? 2. Would crimes be harder to pull off if such platform could, through enhanced technical functionality (which might not necessarily be profitable), not be easily used for organized criminal purpose? 3. Does the community owe the platform a duty to report (as alluded here, such that the community can be blamed for platform misuse)? How much blame does the community share? 4. If indeed the community has a duty to help FB police its platform, will FB also share its revenues with the community seeing as they are its informal "employees" as well? Or are they only buddies in bad times but strangers in good times? 5. Do (or should) victims of social media enabled harm (including, say, businesses that lose sales due to chaos or governments whose economies are effectively sabotaged) have recourse against the platform owner? To what extent? Who else should own the problem and why? I think the "deflect blame to the victims" script is unwise and could backfire. It would probably cause an uproar if used in more assertive parts of the world (i.e. in developed countries/regions). Good day listers, Patrick. On Tuesday, November 20, 2018, 3:52:31 PM GMT+3, Wainaina Mungai via kictanet <kictanet@lists.kictanet.or.ke> wrote: Hi, Facebook as increased their staff significantly to help police what is posted. We may want not to blame the medium used and focus more on addressing the culture of marrying off children of any gender in any country. That way, we remain focussed on 'children's rights'. The main offenders in this case are the "sellers" and "buyers" who took part in the auction. In the end, the extent of regulation will depend on mutistakeholder negotiations on the balance between an open Internet for all and the need to protect privacy, security and human rights online. Wainaina On 20 Nov 2018 15:18, evelyne wanjiku via kictanet <kictanet@lists.kictanet.or.ke> wrote: Hi listers, Im following a debate on cnn about this south sudanese 'baby bride' who was auctioned on fb. It brings me back to this question, who should regulate facebook? Some argue fb is too big to regulate all the things that happen on their platform. Who should police fb? Is it us? We have power to shut down our pages if we dont agree with what goes on in their...but we don't. Why? Is it facebook? Do they care about being responsible especially in Africa? Is it government? And just how far can the government reach? Or should we just relax and face the beginning of the end by having an attitude of anything goes as long we have internet. Nice day everyone. Sent from Yahoo Mail on Android _______________________________________________ kictanet mailing list kictanet@lists.kictanet.or.ke https://lists.kictanet.or.ke/mailman/listinfo/kictanet Twitter: http://twitter.com/kictanet Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/KICTANet/ Domain Registration sponsored by www.eacdirectory.co.ke Unsubscribe or change your options at https://lists.kictanet.or.ke/mailman/options/kictanet/pmaina2000%40yahoo.com The Kenya ICT Action Network (KICTANet) is a multi-stakeholder platform for people and institutions interested and involved in ICT policy and regulation. The network aims to act as a catalyst for reform in the ICT sector in support of the national aim of ICT enabled growth and development. KICTANetiquette : Adhere to the same standards of acceptable behaviors online that you follow in real life: respect people's times and bandwidth, share knowledge, don't flame or abuse or personalize, respect privacy, do not spam, do not market your wares or qualifications. _______________________________________________ kictanet mailing list kictanet@lists.kictanet.or.ke https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=https-3A__lists.kictanet.or.ke_mailman_listinfo_kictanet&d=DwICAg&c=5VD0RTtNlTh3ycd41b3MUw&r=ArvepG4_wcNu_X9xi3nb_Xa9WsGLVfmK6mwPdVONOTE&m=NaYcUPZj9XQ7AlZPaDfcKoImMK2K1qWPeirISjv2ojw&s=gbZV4UJyIA0fZviXCZHAogu838NFmKFwNAremATFkjo&e= Twitter: https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=http-3A__twitter.com_kictanet&d=DwICAg&c=5VD0RTtNlTh3ycd41b3MUw&r=ArvepG4_wcNu_X9xi3nb_Xa9WsGLVfmK6mwPdVONOTE&m=NaYcUPZj9XQ7AlZPaDfcKoImMK2K1qWPeirISjv2ojw&s=MZgbDdI1aLr6hh2UKV_Ar82BPFkrcnfbLIa6AceddCY&e= Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/KICTANet/ Domain Registration sponsored by https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=http-3A__www.eacdirectory.co.ke&d=DwICAg&c=5VD0RTtNlTh3ycd41b3MUw&r=ArvepG4_wcNu_X9xi3nb_Xa9WsGLVfmK6mwPdVONOTE&m=NaYcUPZj9XQ7AlZPaDfcKoImMK2K1qWPeirISjv2ojw&s=98idWglRcx7VF8dDeuKE8E6qKe24pd1OOdlESgKu7dg&e= Unsubscribe or change your options at https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=https-3A__lists.kictanet.or.ke_mailman_options_kictanet_ebeleokobi-2540fb.com&d=DwICAg&c=5VD0RTtNlTh3ycd41b3MUw&r=ArvepG4_wcNu_X9xi3nb_Xa9WsGLVfmK6mwPdVONOTE&m=NaYcUPZj9XQ7AlZPaDfcKoImMK2K1qWPeirISjv2ojw&s=bJB8FeY_VfBWS1l8kmuKuGRwJEZJy0BaHFy-dtVgobQ&e= The Kenya ICT Action Network (KICTANet) is a multi-stakeholder platform for people and institutions interested and involved in ICT policy and regulation. The network aims to act as a catalyst for reform in the ICT sector in support of the national aim of ICT enabled growth and development. KICTANetiquette : Adhere to the same standards of acceptable behaviors online that you follow in real life: respect people's times and bandwidth, share knowledge, don't flame or abuse or personalize, respect privacy, do not spam, do not market your wares or qualifications. _______________________________________________ kictanet mailing list kictanet@lists.kictanet.or.ke https://lists.kictanet.or.ke/mailman/listinfo/kictanet Twitter: http://twitter.com/kictanet Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/KICTANet/ Domain Registration sponsored by www.eacdirectory.co.ke Unsubscribe or change your options at https://lists.kictanet.or.ke/mailman/options/kictanet/pmaina2000%40yahoo.com The Kenya ICT Action Network (KICTANet) is a multi-stakeholder platform for people and institutions interested and involved in ICT policy and regulation. The network aims to act as a catalyst for reform in the ICT sector in support of the national aim of ICT enabled growth and development. KICTANetiquette : Adhere to the same standards of acceptable behaviors online that you follow in real life: respect people's times and bandwidth, share knowledge, don't flame or abuse or personalize, respect privacy, do not spam, do not market your wares or qualifications.
A bit of research would help you to ascertain why Sir doesn’t make sense in this context. On Nov 20, 2018, at 5:25 PM, Patrick A. M. Maina <pmaina2000@yahoo.com<mailto:pmaina2000@yahoo.com>> wrote: Happy to engage Sir but no free ideas from me. Sorry. Is there a global conspiracy to "bash" facebook? Because FB issues are trending *worldwide*... :-) Good night. On Tuesday, November 20, 2018, 8:14:01 PM GMT+3, Ebele Okobi via kictanet <kictanet@lists.kictanet.or.ke<mailto:kictanet@lists.kictanet.or.ke>> wrote: I will add-I’m not engaging to win an argument. Facebook evolves our approach continuously as a direct result of learning more. I have learned so much from fierce critics in this group and many others. So if there are specific ideas you have, or constructive criticisms, I genuinely do want to hear more. And conversely, I should think you might want to take advantage of hearing more about how the company actually works from an insider. If it’s just an exchange of stereotypes about business/vigorous company bashing you’re after, then that’s fair! It’s much less interesting to me, however, and not a great use of my time so in that case I’d leave you to it, Brother Maina. On Nov 20, 2018, at 4:53 PM, Ebele Okobi via kictanet <kictanet@lists.kictanet.or.ke<mailto:kictanet@lists.kictanet.or.ke>> wrote: You haven’t answered any of my questions. I have repasted, for reference- Would it be preferable to have a platform where every single post, picture, comment is subject to pre-clearance, by Facebook? How do you think policing works in society? Are there police assigned to each individual, actively monitoring each? How do you think actual communities work? If not for community, exactly how should a platform of 2.4 billion people posting billions of pieces of content per hour, the vast majority of which is completely innocuous, work, in your view? What is an “educating” model? On Nov 20, 2018, at 4:45 PM, Patrick A. M. Maina <pmaina2000@yahoo.com<mailto:pmaina2000@yahoo.com>> wrote: On the "educating model", I can do some ad-hoc paid consulting for you guys if you haven't thought of it. Lets discuss offline if interested. I don't understand the society argument... Facebook is not "society". It is a *for-profit business entity* founded on what looks like a predatory business model which exploits human/society's weakness (e.g. narcissism, personal insecurities, reward mechanisms in the brain etc) for monetized data and engagement. There's an interesting pattern that I hadn't originally picked on... It looks like mega corporations embrace pseudo-communism ideals to avoid owning problems that *they* created/exacerbated: "Beloved users, the problem belongs to all of us, because we need each other as a community. So each one of you should give mega-corp a free lunch because its good for you".. but when it comes to profits, they revert to pure capitalism "our profits belong to shareholders only. we are capitalists. no free lunches!". Take ownership. Opinion today: Facebook's excessive focus on profits<https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=https-3A__www.ft.com_content_38a92d42-2Deba1-2D11e8-2D89c8-2Dd36339d835c0&d=DwMFaQ&c=5VD0RTtNlTh3ycd41b3MUw&r=ArvepG4_wcNu_X9xi3nb_Xa9WsGLVfmK6mwPdVONOTE&m=ND7ZApITUWcY-AGWW-_XmLkHgYwmBASHLBNQMyrgsic&s=-qg1_epre_4j91N-fAFREat3MAWl9VoUnJoc2YcDx8Y&e=> <https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=https-3A__www.ft.com_content_38a92d42-2Deba1-2D11e8-2D89c8-2Dd36339d835c0&d=DwMFaQ&c=5VD0RTtNlTh3ycd41b3MUw&r=ArvepG4_wcNu_X9xi3nb_Xa9WsGLVfmK6mwPdVONOTE&m=ND7ZApITUWcY-AGWW-_XmLkHgYwmBASHLBNQMyrgsic&s=-qg1_epre_4j91N-fAFREat3MAWl9VoUnJoc2YcDx8Y&e=> Opinion today: Facebook's excessive focus on profits Regulation looms for social media — much as big banks after the financial crisis On Tuesday, November 20, 2018, 6:53:35 PM GMT+3, Ebele Okobi <ebeleokobi@fb.com<mailto:ebeleokobi@fb.com>> wrote: What is an “educating” model? How do you think policing works in society? Are there police assigned to each individual, actively monitoring each? How do you think actual communities work? If not for community, exactly how should a platform of 2.4 billion people posting billions of pieces of content per hour, the vast majority of which is completely innocuous, work, in your view? On Nov 20, 2018, at 3:43 PM, Patrick A. M. Maina <pmaina2000@yahoo.com<mailto:pmaina2000@yahoo.com>> wrote: It kinda looks a bit like an *nudged* duty.. :-) otherwise, why would low levels of reporting be an issue if the system does not heavily *rely* on community reporting (yay! free labor!)? Doesn't the community have its own engagements to focus on and should facebook not respect that? Are you sure that FB truly supports free expression or is it not that its just cheaper (more profitable) to offload policing to the community? If the FB platform truly supported "free expression" things would be more complicated because instead of takedowns, you would use an *educating model* which is much harder to pull off. Sidenotes: a. I'm curious how FB defines "free expression". b. On the Child marriage, FB acted after it was too late (girl had been sold off). This suggests heavy reliance on community policing. Is this a form of wilful negligence on the platform part because by now FB is aware that it is being misused for anti-social purposes? Good evening. Patrick. "We continue to evolve our ability to detect violations on our platforms, but YES, it is YOU, the community, who helps to police the content on Facebook. I continue to be struck by the incredibly low levels of reporting across our Continent. We continue to develop educational materials, but I am always surprised at how few people, even in circles like this, know to report bad content into the platform." On Tuesday, November 20, 2018, 6:14:11 PM GMT+3, Ebele Okobi <ebeleokobi@fb.com<mailto:ebeleokobi@fb.com>> wrote: At no point did I say that the community has a duty to report or that the community is to blame. Facebook responds to the community when the report. This gives the community the power to let us know when something is wrong. Why would anyone *not* want the ability to report? Would it be preferable to have a platform where every single post, picture, comment is subject to pre-clearance, by Facebook? I find it odd that anyone interested in free expression would want such a model. From: kictanet <kictanet-bounces+ebeleokobi=fb.com@lists.kictanet.or.ke<mailto:kictanet-bounces+ebeleokobi=fb.com@lists.kictanet.or.ke>> on behalf of "Patrick A. M. Maina via kictanet" <kictanet@lists.kictanet.or.ke<mailto:kictanet@lists.kictanet.or.ke>> Reply-To: "Patrick A. M. Maina" <pmaina2000@yahoo.com<mailto:pmaina2000@yahoo.com>>, KICTAnet ICT Policy Discussions <kictanet@lists.kictanet.or.ke<mailto:kictanet@lists.kictanet.or.ke>> Date: Tuesday, November 20, 2018 at 2:44 PM To: Ebele Okobi <ebeleokobi@fb.com<mailto:ebeleokobi@fb.com>> Cc: "Patrick A. M. Maina" <pmaina2000@yahoo.com<mailto:pmaina2000@yahoo.com>> Subject: Re: [kictanet] [should the victims be blamed? aren't platforms responsible as enablers and amplifiers?] Child marriage on facebook Some responses on this topic raise some interesting and important issues: 1. Do social media/messaging platform play a role in crime as amplifiers, enablers? 2. Would crimes be harder to pull off if such platform could, through enhanced technical functionality (which might not necessarily be profitable), not be easily used for organized criminal purpose? 3. Does the community owe the platform a duty to report (as alluded here, such that the community can be blamed for platform misuse)? How much blame does the community share? 4. If indeed the community has a duty to help FB police its platform, will FB also share its revenues with the community seeing as they are its informal "employees" as well? Or are they only buddies in bad times but strangers in good times? 5. Do (or should) victims of social media enabled harm (including, say, businesses that lose sales due to chaos or governments whose economies are effectively sabotaged) have recourse against the platform owner? To what extent? Who else should own the problem and why? I think the "deflect blame to the victims" script is unwise and could backfire. It would probably cause an uproar if used in more assertive parts of the world (i.e. in developed countries/regions). Good day listers, Patrick. On Tuesday, November 20, 2018, 3:52:31 PM GMT+3, Wainaina Mungai via kictanet <kictanet@lists.kictanet.or.ke<mailto:kictanet@lists.kictanet.or.ke>> wrote: Hi, Facebook as increased their staff significantly to help police what is posted. We may want not to blame the medium used and focus more on addressing the culture of marrying off children of any gender in any country. That way, we remain focussed on 'children's rights'. The main offenders in this case are the "sellers" and "buyers" who took part in the auction. In the end, the extent of regulation will depend on mutistakeholder negotiations on the balance between an open Internet for all and the need to protect privacy, security and human rights online. Wainaina On 20 Nov 2018 15:18, evelyne wanjiku via kictanet <kictanet@lists.kictanet.or.ke<mailto:kictanet@lists.kictanet.or.ke>> wrote: Hi listers, Im following a debate on cnn about this south sudanese 'baby bride' who was auctioned on fb. It brings me back to this question, who should regulate facebook? Some argue fb is too big to regulate all the things that happen on their platform. Who should police fb? Is it us? We have power to shut down our pages if we dont agree with what goes on in their...but we don't. Why? Is it facebook? Do they care about being responsible especially in Africa? Is it government? And just how far can the government reach? Or should we just relax and face the beginning of the end by having an attitude of anything goes as long we have internet. Nice day everyone. 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Apologies for that mixup Ms. Okobi. On Tuesday, November 20, 2018, 8:30:56 PM GMT+3, Ebele Okobi <ebeleokobi@fb.com> wrote: A bit of research would help you to ascertain why Sir doesn’t make sense in this context. On Nov 20, 2018, at 5:25 PM, Patrick A. M. Maina <pmaina2000@yahoo.com> wrote: Happy to engage Sir but no free ideas from me. Sorry. Is there a global conspiracy to "bash" facebook? Because FB issues are trending *worldwide*... :-) Good night. On Tuesday, November 20, 2018, 8:14:01 PM GMT+3, Ebele Okobi via kictanet <kictanet@lists.kictanet.or.ke> wrote: I will add-I’m not engaging to win an argument. Facebook evolves our approach continuously as a direct result of learning more. I have learned so much from fierce critics in this group and many others. So if there are specific ideas you have, or constructive criticisms, I genuinely do want to hear more. And conversely, I should think you might want to take advantage of hearing more about how the company actually works from an insider. If it’s just an exchange of stereotypes about business/vigorous company bashing you’re after, then that’s fair! It’s much less interesting to me, however, and not a great use of my time so in that case I’d leave you to it, Brother Maina. On Nov 20, 2018, at 4:53 PM, Ebele Okobi via kictanet <kictanet@lists.kictanet.or.ke> wrote: You haven’t answered any of my questions. I have repasted, for reference- Would it be preferable to have a platform where every single post, picture, comment is subject to pre-clearance, by Facebook? How do you think policing works in society?Are there police assigned to each individual, actively monitoring each?How do you think actual communities work? If not for community, exactly how should a platform of 2.4 billion people posting billions of pieces of content per hour, the vast majority of which is completely innocuous, work, in your view? What is an “educating” model? On Nov 20, 2018, at 4:45 PM, Patrick A. M. Maina <pmaina2000@yahoo.com> wrote: On the "educating model", I can do some ad-hoc paid consulting for you guys if you haven't thought of it. Lets discuss offline if interested. I don't understand the society argument... Facebook is not "society". It is a *for-profit business entity* founded on what looks like a predatory business model which exploits human/society's weakness (e.g. narcissism, personal insecurities, reward mechanisms in the brain etc) for monetized data and engagement. There's an interesting pattern that I hadn't originally picked on... It looks like mega corporations embrace pseudo-communism ideals to avoid owning problems that *they* created/exacerbated: "Beloved users, the problem belongs to all of us, because we need each other as a community. So each one of you should give mega-corp a free lunch because its good for you".. but when it comes toprofits, they revert to pure capitalism "our profits belong to shareholders only. we are capitalists. no free lunches!". Take ownership. Opinion today: Facebook's excessive focus on profits | | | | | | | | | | | Opinion today: Facebook's excessive focus on profits Regulation looms for social media — much as big banks after the financial crisis | | | On Tuesday, November 20, 2018, 6:53:35 PM GMT+3, Ebele Okobi <ebeleokobi@fb.com> wrote: What is an “educating” model? How do you think policing works in society?Are there police assigned to each individual, actively monitoring each?How do you think actual communities work? If not for community, exactly how should a platform of 2.4 billion people posting billions of pieces of content per hour, the vast majority of which is completely innocuous, work, in your view? On Nov 20, 2018, at 3:43 PM, Patrick A. M. Maina <pmaina2000@yahoo.com> wrote: It kinda looks a bit like an *nudged* duty.. :-) otherwise, why would low levels of reporting be an issue if the system does not heavily *rely* on community reporting (yay! free labor!)? Doesn't the community have its own engagements to focus on and should facebook not respect that? Are you sure that FB truly supports free expression or is it not that its just cheaper (more profitable) to offload policing to the community? If the FB platform truly supported "free expression" things would be more complicated because instead of takedowns, you would use an *educating model* which is much harder to pull off. Sidenotes:a. I'm curious how FB defines "free expression".b. On the Child marriage, FB acted after it was too late (girl had been sold off). This suggests heavy reliance on community policing. Is this a form of wilful negligence on the platform part because by now FB is aware that it is being misused for anti-social purposes? Good evening.Patrick. "We continue to evolve our ability to detect violations on our platforms, but YES, it is YOU, the community, who helps to police the content on Facebook. I continue to be struck by the incredibly low levels of reporting across our Continent. We continue to develop educational materials, but I am always surprised at how few people, even in circles like this, know to report bad content into the platform." On Tuesday, November 20, 2018, 6:14:11 PM GMT+3, Ebele Okobi <ebeleokobi@fb.com> wrote: At no point did I say that the community has a duty to report or that the community is to blame. Facebook responds to the community when the report. This gives the community the power to let us know when something is wrong. Why would anyone *not* want the ability to report? Would it be preferable to have a platform where every single post, picture, comment is subject to pre-clearance, by Facebook? I find it odd that anyone interested in free expression would want such a model. From: kictanet <kictanet-bounces+ebeleokobi=fb.com@lists.kictanet.or.ke> on behalf of "Patrick A. M. Maina via kictanet" <kictanet@lists.kictanet.or.ke> Reply-To: "Patrick A. M. Maina" <pmaina2000@yahoo.com>, KICTAnet ICT Policy Discussions <kictanet@lists.kictanet.or.ke> Date: Tuesday, November 20, 2018 at 2:44 PM To: Ebele Okobi <ebeleokobi@fb.com> Cc: "Patrick A. M. Maina" <pmaina2000@yahoo.com> Subject: Re: [kictanet] [should the victims be blamed? aren't platforms responsible as enablers and amplifiers?] Child marriage on facebook Some responses on this topic raise some interesting and important issues: 1. Do social media/messaging platform play a role in crime as amplifiers, enablers? 2. Would crimes be harder to pull off if such platform could, through enhanced technical functionality (which might not necessarily be profitable), not be easily used for organized criminal purpose? 3. Does the community owe the platform a duty to report (as alluded here, such that the community can be blamed for platform misuse)? How much blame does the community share? 4. If indeed the community has a duty to help FB police its platform, will FB also share its revenues with the community seeing as they are its informal "employees" as well? Or are they only buddies in bad times but strangers in good times? 5. Do (or should) victims of social media enabled harm (including, say, businesses that lose sales due to chaos or governments whose economies are effectively sabotaged) have recourse against the platform owner? To what extent? Who else should own the problem and why? I think the "deflect blame to the victims" script is unwise and could backfire. It would probably cause an uproar if used in more assertive parts of the world (i.e. in developed countries/regions). Good day listers, Patrick. On Tuesday, November 20, 2018, 3:52:31 PM GMT+3, Wainaina Mungai via kictanet <kictanet@lists.kictanet.or.ke> wrote: Hi, Facebook as increased their staff significantly to help police what is posted. We may want not to blame the medium used and focus more on addressing the culture of marrying off children of any gender in any country. That way, we remain focussed on 'children's rights'. The main offenders in this case are the "sellers" and "buyers" who took part in the auction. In the end, the extent of regulation will depend on mutistakeholder negotiations on the balance between an open Internet for all and the need to protect privacy, security and human rights online. Wainaina On 20 Nov 2018 15:18, evelyne wanjiku via kictanet <kictanet@lists.kictanet.or.ke> wrote: Hi listers, Im following a debate on cnn about this south sudanese 'baby bride' who was auctioned on fb. It brings me back to this question, who should regulate facebook? Some argue fb is too big to regulate all the things that happen on their platform. Who should police fb? Is it us? We have power to shut down our pages if we dont agree with what goes on in their...but we don't. Why? Is it facebook? Do they care about being responsible especially in Africa? Is it government? And just how far can the government reach? Or should we just relax and face the beginning of the end by having an attitude of anything goes as long we have internet. Nice day everyone. Sent from Yahoo Mail on Android _______________________________________________ kictanet mailing list kictanet@lists.kictanet.or.ke https://lists.kictanet.or.ke/mailman/listinfo/kictanet Twitter: http://twitter.com/kictanet Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/KICTANet/ Domain Registration sponsored by www.eacdirectory.co.ke Unsubscribe or change your options at https://lists.kictanet.or.ke/mailman/options/kictanet/pmaina2000%40yahoo.com The Kenya ICT Action Network (KICTANet) is a multi-stakeholder platform for people and institutions interested and involved in ICT policy and regulation. The network aims to act as a catalyst for reform in the ICT sector in support of the national aim of ICT enabled growth and development. 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The network aims to act as a catalyst for reform in the ICT sector in support of the national aim of ICT enabled growth and development. KICTANetiquette : Adhere to the same standards of acceptable behaviors online that you follow in real life: respect people's times and bandwidth, share knowledge, don't flame or abuse or personalize, respect privacy, do not spam, do not market your wares or qualifications.
Sawa, in-line answers below... On Tuesday, November 20, 2018, 7:52:11 PM GMT+3, Ebele Okobi <ebeleokobi@fb.com> wrote: You haven’t answered any of my questions. I have repasted, for reference- Would it be preferable to have a platform where every single post, picture, comment is subject to pre-clearance, by Facebook?A: Are those the only options? Is that the only alternative to status-quo? What happened to open innovation? Ideas for better *technical* solutions exist, but the good ones are not free. How do you think policing works in society?A: Policing in FB is not analogous to policing in society. FB is a private tech platform. Are there police assigned to each individual, actively monitoring each?A: pls. see above answer. How do you think actual communities work?A: pls. see above answer. If not for community, exactly how should a platform of 2.4 billion people posting billions of pieces of content per hour, the vast majority of which is completely innocuous, work, in your view?A: I could tell you but that would be free consulting. :-). What is an “educating” model?A: Again, I can't do free consulting to billion dollar companies. FB could try an "innovation competition" to get a cheap/free brainstorm on the issue but I think people globally are wising up on the odds around such events and so the quality of ideas is going down. Probably another area that needs new thinking. Enjoy your evening! :-)Patrick. On Nov 20, 2018, at 4:45 PM, Patrick A. M. Maina <pmaina2000@yahoo.com> wrote: On the "educating model", I can do some ad-hoc paid consulting for you guys if you haven't thought of it. Lets discuss offline if interested. I don't understand the society argument... Facebook is not "society". It is a *for-profit business entity* founded on what looks like a predatory business model which exploits human/society's weakness (e.g. narcissism, personal insecurities, reward mechanisms in the brain etc) for monetized data and engagement. There's an interesting pattern that I hadn't originally picked on... It looks like mega corporations embrace pseudo-communism ideals to avoid owning problems that *they* created/exacerbated: "Beloved users, the problem belongs to all of us, because we need each other as a community. So each one of you should give mega-corp a free lunch because its good for you".. but when it comes toprofits, they revert to pure capitalism "our profits belong to shareholders only. we are capitalists. no free lunches!". Take ownership. Opinion today: Facebook's excessive focus on profits | | | | | | | | | | | Opinion today: Facebook's excessive focus on profits Regulation looms for social media — much as big banks after the financial crisis | | | On Tuesday, November 20, 2018, 6:53:35 PM GMT+3, Ebele Okobi <ebeleokobi@fb.com> wrote: What is an “educating” model? How do you think policing works in society?Are there police assigned to each individual, actively monitoring each?How do you think actual communities work? If not for community, exactly how should a platform of 2.4 billion people posting billions of pieces of content per hour, the vast majority of which is completely innocuous, work, in your view? On Nov 20, 2018, at 3:43 PM, Patrick A. M. Maina <pmaina2000@yahoo.com> wrote: It kinda looks a bit like an *nudged* duty.. :-) otherwise, why would low levels of reporting be an issue if the system does not heavily *rely* on community reporting (yay! free labor!)? Doesn't the community have its own engagements to focus on and should facebook not respect that? Are you sure that FB truly supports free expression or is it not that its just cheaper (more profitable) to offload policing to the community? If the FB platform truly supported "free expression" things would be more complicated because instead of takedowns, you would use an *educating model* which is much harder to pull off. Sidenotes:a. I'm curious how FB defines "free expression".b. On the Child marriage, FB acted after it was too late (girl had been sold off). This suggests heavy reliance on community policing. Is this a form of wilful negligence on the platform part because by now FB is aware that it is being misused for anti-social purposes? Good evening.Patrick. "We continue to evolve our ability to detect violations on our platforms, but YES, it is YOU, the community, who helps to police the content on Facebook. I continue to be struck by the incredibly low levels of reporting across our Continent. We continue to develop educational materials, but I am always surprised at how few people, even in circles like this, know to report bad content into the platform." On Tuesday, November 20, 2018, 6:14:11 PM GMT+3, Ebele Okobi <ebeleokobi@fb.com> wrote: At no point did I say that the community has a duty to report or that the community is to blame. Facebook responds to the community when the report. This gives the community the power to let us know when something is wrong. Why would anyone *not* want the ability to report? Would it be preferable to have a platform where every single post, picture, comment is subject to pre-clearance, by Facebook? I find it odd that anyone interested in free expression would want such a model. From:kictanet <kictanet-bounces+ebeleokobi=fb.com@lists.kictanet.or.ke> on behalf of "Patrick A. M. Maina via kictanet" <kictanet@lists.kictanet.or.ke> Reply-To: "Patrick A. M. Maina" <pmaina2000@yahoo.com>, KICTAnet ICT Policy Discussions <kictanet@lists.kictanet.or.ke> Date: Tuesday, November 20, 2018 at 2:44 PM To: Ebele Okobi <ebeleokobi@fb.com> Cc: "Patrick A. M. Maina" <pmaina2000@yahoo.com> Subject: Re: [kictanet] [should the victims be blamed? aren't platforms responsible as enablers and amplifiers?] Child marriage on facebook Some responses on this topic raise some interesting and important issues: 1. Do social media/messaging platform play a role in crime as amplifiers, enablers? 2. Would crimes be harder to pull off if such platform could, through enhanced technical functionality (which might not necessarily be profitable), not be easily used for organized criminal purpose? 3. Does the community owe the platform a duty to report (as alluded here, such that the community can be blamed for platform misuse)? How much blame does the community share? 4. If indeed the community has a duty to help FB police its platform, will FB also share its revenues with the community seeing as they are its informal "employees" as well? Or are they only buddies in bad times but strangers in good times? 5. Do (or should) victims of social media enabled harm (including, say, businesses that lose sales due to chaos or governments whose economies are effectively sabotaged) have recourse against the platform owner? To what extent? Who else should own the problem and why? I think the "deflect blame to the victims" script is unwise and could backfire. It would probably cause an uproar if used in more assertive parts of the world (i.e. in developed countries/regions). Good day listers, Patrick. On Tuesday, November 20, 2018, 3:52:31 PM GMT+3, Wainaina Mungai via kictanet <kictanet@lists.kictanet.or.ke> wrote: Hi, Facebook as increased their staff significantly to help police what is posted. We may want not to blame the medium used and focus more on addressing the culture of marrying off children of any gender in any country. That way, we remain focussed on 'children's rights'. The main offenders in this case are the "sellers" and "buyers" who took part in the auction. In the end, the extent of regulation will depend on mutistakeholder negotiations on the balance between an open Internet for all and the need to protect privacy, security and human rights online. Wainaina On 20 Nov 2018 15:18, evelyne wanjiku via kictanet <kictanet@lists.kictanet.or.ke> wrote: Hi listers, Im following a debate on cnn about this south sudanese 'baby bride' who was auctioned on fb. It brings me back to this question, who should regulate facebook? Some argue fb is too big to regulate all the things that happen on their platform. Who should police fb? Is it us? We have power to shut down our pages if we dont agree with what goes on in their...but we don't. Why? Is it facebook? Do they care about being responsible especially in Africa? Is it government? And just how far can the government reach? Or should we just relax and face the beginning of the end by having an attitude of anything goes as long we have internet. Nice day everyone. Sent from Yahoo Mail on Android _______________________________________________ kictanet mailing list kictanet@lists.kictanet.or.ke https://lists.kictanet.or.ke/mailman/listinfo/kictanet Twitter: http://twitter.com/kictanet Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/KICTANet/ Domain Registration sponsored by www.eacdirectory.co.ke Unsubscribe or change your options at https://lists.kictanet.or.ke/mailman/options/kictanet/pmaina2000%40yahoo.com The Kenya ICT Action Network (KICTANet) is a multi-stakeholder platform for people and institutions interested and involved in ICT policy and regulation. The network aims to act as a catalyst for reform in the ICT sector in support of the national aim of ICT enabled growth and development. | | | | | | | | | | | KICTANet (@KICTANet) | Twitter The latest Tweets from KICTANet (@KICTANet). The KICTANet is a multi-stakeholder platform for people and institu... | | | | | | | .co.ke at Kes 580. Promo code is Google domains registration only, renew... .co.ke at Kes 580. Promo code is Google domains registration only, renewals, Web hosting in Kenya | | | | | | | Security Check Required | | | KICTANetiquette : Adhere to the same standards of acceptable behaviors online that you follow in real life: respect people's times and bandwidth, share knowledge, don't flame or abuse or personalize, respect privacy, do not spam, do not market your wares or qualifications.
The problem set is a platform with 2.4 billion people, posting billions of pieces of content. We have some proactive review, of things like child exploitation content, but it is really difficult to pre-review every single piece of content at this scale. It’s also not even what a majority of users want. I know that I personally, use FB a great deal, and I would not want that. In order to ensure that *no* bad content is posted, that is, actually, what would be necessary. This is actually an issue we have spent a great deal of time thinking about, with multiple experts, and while there are more ways we are identifying content, a state of no bad content ever posted, or a system that would enable FB itself to be aware of every single piece of content-this is a genuine question-how do you think that would work? Saying “private tech platform” doesn’t answer the question-detecting crime is still detecting crime/bad actors, and it’s still not clear from this phrase how you think this would work, irl. We pay multiple consultants and confer with thousands of rights activists, safety advocates, CSOs, law enforcement, etc, and it’s not apparent from this exchange that you are an expert in any of the topics discussed, so the notion that my genuine interest in your opinion amounts to a request for free consulting is odd. On Nov 20, 2018, at 5:16 PM, Patrick A. M. Maina <pmaina2000@yahoo.com<mailto:pmaina2000@yahoo.com>> wrote: Sawa, in-line answers below... On Tuesday, November 20, 2018, 7:52:11 PM GMT+3, Ebele Okobi <ebeleokobi@fb.com<mailto:ebeleokobi@fb.com>> wrote: You haven’t answered any of my questions. I have repasted, for reference- Would it be preferable to have a platform where every single post, picture, comment is subject to pre-clearance, by Facebook? A: Are those the only options? Is that the only alternative to status-quo? What happened to open innovation? Ideas for better *technical* solutions exist, but the good ones are not free. How do you think policing works in society? A: Policing in FB is not analogous to policing in society. FB is a private tech platform. Are there police assigned to each individual, actively monitoring each? A: pls. see above answer. How do you think actual communities work? A: pls. see above answer. If not for community, exactly how should a platform of 2.4 billion people posting billions of pieces of content per hour, the vast majority of which is completely innocuous, work, in your view? A: I could tell you but that would be free consulting. :-). What is an “educating” model? A: Again, I can't do free consulting to billion dollar companies. FB could try an "innovation competition" to get a cheap/free brainstorm on the issue but I think people globally are wising up on the odds around such events and so the quality of ideas is going down. Probably another area that needs new thinking. Enjoy your evening! :-) Patrick. On Nov 20, 2018, at 4:45 PM, Patrick A. M. Maina <pmaina2000@yahoo.com<mailto:pmaina2000@yahoo.com>> wrote: On the "educating model", I can do some ad-hoc paid consulting for you guys if you haven't thought of it. Lets discuss offline if interested. I don't understand the society argument... Facebook is not "society". It is a *for-profit business entity* founded on what looks like a predatory business model which exploits human/society's weakness (e.g. narcissism, personal insecurities, reward mechanisms in the brain etc) for monetized data and engagement. There's an interesting pattern that I hadn't originally picked on... It looks like mega corporations embrace pseudo-communism ideals to avoid owning problems that *they* created/exacerbated: "Beloved users, the problem belongs to all of us, because we need each other as a community. So each one of you should give mega-corp a free lunch because its good for you".. but when it comes to profits, they revert to pure capitalism "our profits belong to shareholders only. we are capitalists. no free lunches!". Take ownership. Opinion today: Facebook's excessive focus on profits<https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=https-3A__www.ft.com_content_38a92d42-2Deba1-2D11e8-2D89c8-2Dd36339d835c0&d=DwMFaQ&c=5VD0RTtNlTh3ycd41b3MUw&r=ArvepG4_wcNu_X9xi3nb_Xa9WsGLVfmK6mwPdVONOTE&m=ND7ZApITUWcY-AGWW-_XmLkHgYwmBASHLBNQMyrgsic&s=-qg1_epre_4j91N-fAFREat3MAWl9VoUnJoc2YcDx8Y&e=> <https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=https-3A__www.ft.com_content_38a92d42-2Deba1-2D11e8-2D89c8-2Dd36339d835c0&d=DwMFaQ&c=5VD0RTtNlTh3ycd41b3MUw&r=ArvepG4_wcNu_X9xi3nb_Xa9WsGLVfmK6mwPdVONOTE&m=ND7ZApITUWcY-AGWW-_XmLkHgYwmBASHLBNQMyrgsic&s=-qg1_epre_4j91N-fAFREat3MAWl9VoUnJoc2YcDx8Y&e=> Opinion today: Facebook's excessive focus on profits Regulation looms for social media — much as big banks after the financial crisis On Tuesday, November 20, 2018, 6:53:35 PM GMT+3, Ebele Okobi <ebeleokobi@fb.com<mailto:ebeleokobi@fb.com>> wrote: What is an “educating” model? How do you think policing works in society? Are there police assigned to each individual, actively monitoring each? How do you think actual communities work? If not for community, exactly how should a platform of 2.4 billion people posting billions of pieces of content per hour, the vast majority of which is completely innocuous, work, in your view? On Nov 20, 2018, at 3:43 PM, Patrick A. M. Maina <pmaina2000@yahoo.com<mailto:pmaina2000@yahoo.com>> wrote: It kinda looks a bit like an *nudged* duty.. :-) otherwise, why would low levels of reporting be an issue if the system does not heavily *rely* on community reporting (yay! free labor!)? Doesn't the community have its own engagements to focus on and should facebook not respect that? Are you sure that FB truly supports free expression or is it not that its just cheaper (more profitable) to offload policing to the community? If the FB platform truly supported "free expression" things would be more complicated because instead of takedowns, you would use an *educating model* which is much harder to pull off. Sidenotes: a. I'm curious how FB defines "free expression". b. On the Child marriage, FB acted after it was too late (girl had been sold off). This suggests heavy reliance on community policing. Is this a form of wilful negligence on the platform part because by now FB is aware that it is being misused for anti-social purposes? Good evening. Patrick. "We continue to evolve our ability to detect violations on our platforms, but YES, it is YOU, the community, who helps to police the content on Facebook. I continue to be struck by the incredibly low levels of reporting across our Continent. We continue to develop educational materials, but I am always surprised at how few people, even in circles like this, know to report bad content into the platform." On Tuesday, November 20, 2018, 6:14:11 PM GMT+3, Ebele Okobi <ebeleokobi@fb.com<mailto:ebeleokobi@fb.com>> wrote: At no point did I say that the community has a duty to report or that the community is to blame. Facebook responds to the community when the report. This gives the community the power to let us know when something is wrong. Why would anyone *not* want the ability to report? Would it be preferable to have a platform where every single post, picture, comment is subject to pre-clearance, by Facebook? I find it odd that anyone interested in free expression would want such a model. From: kictanet <kictanet-bounces+ebeleokobi=fb.com@lists.kictanet.or.ke<mailto:kictanet-bounces+ebeleokobi=fb.com@lists.kictanet.or.ke>> on behalf of "Patrick A. M. Maina via kictanet" <kictanet@lists.kictanet.or.ke<mailto:kictanet@lists.kictanet.or.ke>> Reply-To: "Patrick A. M. Maina" <pmaina2000@yahoo.com<mailto:pmaina2000@yahoo.com>>, KICTAnet ICT Policy Discussions <kictanet@lists.kictanet.or.ke<mailto:kictanet@lists.kictanet.or.ke>> Date: Tuesday, November 20, 2018 at 2:44 PM To: Ebele Okobi <ebeleokobi@fb.com<mailto:ebeleokobi@fb.com>> Cc: "Patrick A. M. Maina" <pmaina2000@yahoo.com<mailto:pmaina2000@yahoo.com>> Subject: Re: [kictanet] [should the victims be blamed? aren't platforms responsible as enablers and amplifiers?] Child marriage on facebook Some responses on this topic raise some interesting and important issues: 1. Do social media/messaging platform play a role in crime as amplifiers, enablers? 2. Would crimes be harder to pull off if such platform could, through enhanced technical functionality (which might not necessarily be profitable), not be easily used for organized criminal purpose? 3. Does the community owe the platform a duty to report (as alluded here, such that the community can be blamed for platform misuse)? How much blame does the community share? 4. If indeed the community has a duty to help FB police its platform, will FB also share its revenues with the community seeing as they are its informal "employees" as well? Or are they only buddies in bad times but strangers in good times? 5. Do (or should) victims of social media enabled harm (including, say, businesses that lose sales due to chaos or governments whose economies are effectively sabotaged) have recourse against the platform owner? To what extent? Who else should own the problem and why? I think the "deflect blame to the victims" script is unwise and could backfire. It would probably cause an uproar if used in more assertive parts of the world (i.e. in developed countries/regions). Good day listers, Patrick. On Tuesday, November 20, 2018, 3:52:31 PM GMT+3, Wainaina Mungai via kictanet <kictanet@lists.kictanet.or.ke<mailto:kictanet@lists.kictanet.or.ke>> wrote: Hi, Facebook as increased their staff significantly to help police what is posted. We may want not to blame the medium used and focus more on addressing the culture of marrying off children of any gender in any country. That way, we remain focussed on 'children's rights'. The main offenders in this case are the "sellers" and "buyers" who took part in the auction. In the end, the extent of regulation will depend on mutistakeholder negotiations on the balance between an open Internet for all and the need to protect privacy, security and human rights online. Wainaina On 20 Nov 2018 15:18, evelyne wanjiku via kictanet <kictanet@lists.kictanet.or.ke<mailto:kictanet@lists.kictanet.or.ke>> wrote: Hi listers, Im following a debate on cnn about this south sudanese 'baby bride' who was auctioned on fb. It brings me back to this question, who should regulate facebook? Some argue fb is too big to regulate all the things that happen on their platform. Who should police fb? Is it us? We have power to shut down our pages if we dont agree with what goes on in their...but we don't. Why? Is it facebook? Do they care about being responsible especially in Africa? Is it government? And just how far can the government reach? Or should we just relax and face the beginning of the end by having an attitude of anything goes as long we have internet. Nice day everyone. 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Then it looks like you have everything under control. :-) Hope the problems gets solved soonest for the sake of us all. Best wishes! On Tuesday, November 20, 2018, 8:30:08 PM GMT+3, Ebele Okobi <ebeleokobi@fb.com> wrote: The problem set is a platform with 2.4 billion people, posting billions of pieces of content. We have some proactive review, of things like child exploitation content, but it is really difficult to pre-review every single piece of content at this scale. It’s also not even what a majority of users want. I know that I personally, use FB a great deal, and I would not want that. In order to ensure that *no* bad content is posted, that is, actually, what would be necessary. This is actually an issue we have spent a great deal of time thinking about, with multiple experts, and while there are more ways we are identifying content, a state of no bad content ever posted, or a system that would enable FB itself to be aware of every single piece of content-this is a genuine question-how do you think that would work? Saying “private tech platform” doesn’t answer the question-detecting crime is still detecting crime/bad actors, and it’s still not clear from this phrase how you think this would work, irl. We pay multiple consultants and confer with thousands of rights activists, safety advocates, CSOs, law enforcement, etc, and it’s not apparent from this exchange that you are an expert in any of the topics discussed, so the notion that my genuine interest in your opinion amounts to a request for free consulting is odd. On Nov 20, 2018, at 5:16 PM, Patrick A. M. Maina <pmaina2000@yahoo.com> wrote: Sawa, in-line answers below... On Tuesday, November 20, 2018, 7:52:11 PM GMT+3, Ebele Okobi <ebeleokobi@fb.com> wrote: You haven’t answered any of my questions. I have repasted, for reference- Would it be preferable to have a platform where every single post, picture, comment is subject to pre-clearance, by Facebook?A: Are those the only options? Is that the only alternative to status-quo? What happened to open innovation? Ideas for better *technical* solutions exist, but the good ones are not free. How do you think policing works in society?A: Policing in FB is not analogous to policing in society. FB is a private tech platform. Are there police assigned to each individual, actively monitoring each?A: pls. see above answer. How do you think actual communities work?A: pls. see above answer. If not for community, exactly how should a platform of 2.4 billion people posting billions of pieces of content per hour, the vast majority of which is completely innocuous, work, in your view?A: I could tell you but that would be free consulting. :-). What is an “educating” model?A: Again, I can't do free consulting to billion dollar companies. FB could try an "innovation competition" to get a cheap/free brainstorm on the issue but I think people globally are wising up on the odds around such events and so the quality of ideas is going down. Probably another area that needs new thinking. Enjoy your evening! :-)Patrick. On Nov 20, 2018, at 4:45 PM, Patrick A. M. Maina <pmaina2000@yahoo.com> wrote: On the "educating model", I can do some ad-hoc paid consulting for you guys if you haven't thought of it. Lets discuss offline if interested. I don't understand the society argument... Facebook is not "society". It is a *for-profit business entity* founded on what looks like a predatory business model which exploits human/society's weakness (e.g. narcissism, personal insecurities, reward mechanisms in the brain etc) for monetized data and engagement. There's an interesting pattern that I hadn't originally picked on... It looks like mega corporations embrace pseudo-communism ideals to avoid owning problems that *they* created/exacerbated: "Beloved users, the problem belongs to all of us, because we need each other as a community. So each one of you should give mega-corp a free lunch because its good for you".. but when it comes toprofits, they revert to pure capitalism "our profits belong to shareholders only. we are capitalists. no free lunches!". Take ownership. Opinion today: Facebook's excessive focus on profits | | | | | | | | | | | Opinion today: Facebook's excessive focus on profits Regulation looms for social media — much as big banks after the financial crisis | | | On Tuesday, November 20, 2018, 6:53:35 PM GMT+3, Ebele Okobi <ebeleokobi@fb.com> wrote: What is an “educating” model? How do you think policing works in society?Are there police assigned to each individual, actively monitoring each?How do you think actual communities work? If not for community, exactly how should a platform of 2.4 billion people posting billions of pieces of content per hour, the vast majority of which is completely innocuous, work, in your view? On Nov 20, 2018, at 3:43 PM, Patrick A. M. Maina <pmaina2000@yahoo.com> wrote: It kinda looks a bit like an *nudged* duty.. :-) otherwise, why would low levels of reporting be an issue if the system does not heavily *rely* on community reporting (yay! free labor!)? Doesn't the community have its own engagements to focus on and should facebook not respect that? Are you sure that FB truly supports free expression or is it not that its just cheaper (more profitable) to offload policing to the community? If the FB platform truly supported "free expression" things would be more complicated because instead of takedowns, you would use an *educating model* which is much harder to pull off. Sidenotes:a. I'm curious how FB defines "free expression".b. On the Child marriage, FB acted after it was too late (girl had been sold off). This suggests heavy reliance on community policing. Is this a form of wilful negligence on the platform part because by now FB is aware that it is being misused for anti-social purposes? Good evening.Patrick. "We continue to evolve our ability to detect violations on our platforms, but YES, it is YOU, the community, who helps to police the content on Facebook. I continue to be struck by the incredibly low levels of reporting across our Continent. We continue to develop educational materials, but I am always surprised at how few people, even in circles like this, know to report bad content into the platform." On Tuesday, November 20, 2018, 6:14:11 PM GMT+3, Ebele Okobi <ebeleokobi@fb.com> wrote: At no point did I say that the community has a duty to report or that the community is to blame. Facebook responds to the community when the report. This gives the community the power to let us know when something is wrong. Why would anyone *not* want the ability to report? Would it be preferable to have a platform where every single post, picture, comment is subject to pre-clearance, by Facebook? I find it odd that anyone interested in free expression would want such a model. From: kictanet <kictanet-bounces+ebeleokobi=fb.com@lists.kictanet.or.ke> on behalf of "Patrick A. M. Maina via kictanet" <kictanet@lists.kictanet.or.ke> Reply-To: "Patrick A. M. Maina" <pmaina2000@yahoo.com>, KICTAnet ICT Policy Discussions <kictanet@lists.kictanet.or.ke> Date: Tuesday, November 20, 2018 at 2:44 PM To: Ebele Okobi <ebeleokobi@fb.com> Cc: "Patrick A. M. Maina" <pmaina2000@yahoo.com> Subject: Re: [kictanet] [should the victims be blamed? aren't platforms responsible as enablers and amplifiers?] Child marriage on facebook Some responses on this topic raise some interesting and important issues: 1. Do social media/messaging platform play a role in crime as amplifiers, enablers? 2. Would crimes be harder to pull off if such platform could, through enhanced technical functionality (which might not necessarily be profitable), not be easily used for organized criminal purpose? 3. Does the community owe the platform a duty to report (as alluded here, such that the community can be blamed for platform misuse)? How much blame does the community share? 4. If indeed the community has a duty to help FB police its platform, will FB also share its revenues with the community seeing as they are its informal "employees" as well? Or are they only buddies in bad times but strangers in good times? 5. Do (or should) victims of social media enabled harm (including, say, businesses that lose sales due to chaos or governments whose economies are effectively sabotaged) have recourse against the platform owner? To what extent? Who else should own the problem and why? I think the "deflect blame to the victims" script is unwise and could backfire. It would probably cause an uproar if used in more assertive parts of the world (i.e. in developed countries/regions). Good day listers, Patrick. On Tuesday, November 20, 2018, 3:52:31 PM GMT+3, Wainaina Mungai via kictanet <kictanet@lists.kictanet.or.ke> wrote: Hi, Facebook as increased their staff significantly to help police what is posted. We may want not to blame the medium used and focus more on addressing the culture of marrying off children of any gender in any country. That way, we remain focussed on 'children's rights'. The main offenders in this case are the "sellers" and "buyers" who took part in the auction. In the end, the extent of regulation will depend on mutistakeholder negotiations on the balance between an open Internet for all and the need to protect privacy, security and human rights online. Wainaina On 20 Nov 2018 15:18, evelyne wanjiku via kictanet <kictanet@lists.kictanet.or.ke> wrote: Hi listers, Im following a debate on cnn about this south sudanese 'baby bride' who was auctioned on fb. It brings me back to this question, who should regulate facebook? Some argue fb is too big to regulate all the things that happen on their platform. Who should police fb? Is it us? We have power to shut down our pages if we dont agree with what goes on in their...but we don't. Why? Is it facebook? Do they care about being responsible especially in Africa? Is it government? And just how far can the government reach? Or should we just relax and face the beginning of the end by having an attitude of anything goes as long we have internet. Nice day everyone. Sent from Yahoo Mail on Android _______________________________________________ kictanet mailing list kictanet@lists.kictanet.or.ke https://lists.kictanet.or.ke/mailman/listinfo/kictanet Twitter: http://twitter.com/kictanet Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/KICTANet/ Domain Registration sponsored by www.eacdirectory.co.ke Unsubscribe or change your options at https://lists.kictanet.or.ke/mailman/options/kictanet/pmaina2000%40yahoo.com The Kenya ICT Action Network (KICTANet) is a multi-stakeholder platform for people and institutions interested and involved in ICT policy and regulation. The network aims to act as a catalyst for reform in the ICT sector in support of the national aim of ICT enabled growth and development. | | | | | | | | | | | KICTANet (@KICTANet) | Twitter The latest Tweets from KICTANet (@KICTANet). The KICTANet is a multi-stakeholder platform for people and institu... | | | | | | | .co.ke at Kes 580. Promo code is Google domains registration only, renew... .co.ke at Kes 580. Promo code is Google domains registration only, renewals, Web hosting in Kenya | | | | | | | Security Check Required | | | KICTANetiquette : Adhere to the same standards of acceptable behaviors online that you follow in real life: respect people's times and bandwidth, share knowledge, don't flame or abuse or personalize, respect privacy, do not spam, do not market your wares or qualifications.
Folks, As the internet opens up to global opportunities so does it also make present the dark side of it. It’s a case of what outweighs what..... truth of the matter is, it’s hard (actually almost impossible) to regulate the net in a democracy that believes censorship of freedom of press and social rights is/are undemocratic. Get Outlook for iOS<https://aka.ms/o0ukef> ________________________________ From: kictanet <kictanet-bounces+gwarigi=msn.com@lists.kictanet.or.ke> on behalf of WANGARI KABIRU via kictanet <kictanet@lists.kictanet.or.ke> Sent: Tuesday, November 20, 2018 11:01 PM To: gwarigi@msn.com Cc: WANGARI KABIRU Subject: Re: [kictanet] [should the victims be blamed? aren't platforms responsible as enablers and amplifiers?] Child marriage on facebook (This kindly is not for FB response) I pick on a statement and look into a possible future of mobile money " The problem set is a platform with 2.4 billion people, posting billions of pieces of content. " One day this might be a problem from one of the FinTech firms or online retailers. Painted in $$$$$$ terms money transaction posted by clients or purchase transactions. Design thinkers, an early business opportunity with your clients. *Wrt the early marriages, may all girls and boys experience fullness of childhood! Be blessed. Regards/Wangari On Nov 20, 2018 20:39, "Patrick A. M. Maina via kictanet" <kictanet@lists.kictanet.or.ke> wrote: Then it looks like you have everything under control. :-) Hope the problems gets solved soonest for the sake of us all. Best wishes! On Tuesday, November 20, 2018, 8:30:08 PM GMT+3, Ebele Okobi <ebeleokobi@fb.com> wrote: The problem set is a platform with 2.4 billion people, posting billions of pieces of content. We have some proactive review, of things like child exploitation content, but it is really difficult to pre-review every single piece of content at this scale. It’s also not even what a majority of users want. I know that I personally, use FB a great deal, and I would not want that. In order to ensure that *no* bad content is posted, that is, actually, what would be necessary. This is actually an issue we have spent a great deal of time thinking about, with multiple experts, and while there are more ways we are identifying content, a state of no bad content ever posted, or a system that would enable FB itself to be aware of every single piece of content-this is a genuine question-how do you think that would work? Saying “private tech platform” doesn’t answer the question-detecting crime is still detecting crime/bad actors, and it’s still not clear from this phrase how you think this would work, irl. We pay multiple consultants and confer with thousands of rights activists, safety advocates, CSOs, law enforcement, etc, and it’s not apparent from this exchange that you are an expert in any of the topics discussed, so the notion that my genuine interest in your opinion amounts to a request for free consulting is odd. On Nov 20, 2018, at 5:16 PM, Patrick A. M. Maina <pmaina2000@yahoo.com<mailto:pmaina2000@yahoo.com>> wrote: Sawa, in-line answers below... On Tuesday, November 20, 2018, 7:52:11 PM GMT+3, Ebele Okobi <ebeleokobi@fb.com<mailto:ebeleokobi@fb.com>> wrote: You haven’t answered any of my questions. I have repasted, for reference- Would it be preferable to have a platform where every single post, picture, comment is subject to pre-clearance, by Facebook? A: Are those the only options? Is that the only alternative to status-quo? What happened to open innovation? Ideas for better *technical* solutions exist, but the good ones are not free. How do you think policing works in society? A: Policing in FB is not analogous to policing in society. FB is a private tech platform. Are there police assigned to each individual, actively monitoring each? A: pls. see above answer. How do you think actual communities work? A: pls. see above answer. If not for community, exactly how should a platform of 2.4 billion people posting billions of pieces of content per hour, the vast majority of which is completely innocuous, work, in your view? A: I could tell you but that would be free consulting. :-). What is an “educating” model? A: Again, I can't do free consulting to billion dollar companies. FB could try an "innovation competition" to get a cheap/free brainstorm on the issue but I think people globally are wising up on the odds around such events and so the quality of ideas is going down. Probably another area that needs new thinking. Enjoy your evening! :-) Patrick. On Nov 20, 2018, at 4:45 PM, Patrick A. M. Maina <pmaina2000@yahoo.com<mailto:pmaina2000@yahoo.com>> wrote: On the "educating model", I can do some ad-hoc paid consulting for you guys if you haven't thought of it. Lets discuss offline if interested. I don't understand the society argument... Facebook is not "society". It is a *for-profit business entity* founded on what looks like a predatory business model which exploits human/society's weakness (e.g. narcissism, personal insecurities, reward mechanisms in the brain etc) for monetized data and engagement. There's an interesting pattern that I hadn't originally picked on... It looks like mega corporations embrace pseudo-communism ideals to avoid owning problems that *they* created/exacerbated: "Beloved users, the problem belongs to all of us, because we need each other as a community. So each one of you should give mega-corp a free lunch because its good for you".. but when it comes to profits, they revert to pure capitalism "our profits belong to shareholders only. we are capitalists. no free lunches!". Take ownership. Opinion today: Facebook's excessive focus on profits<https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=https-3A__www.ft.com_content_38a92d42-2Deba1-2D11e8-2D89c8-2Dd36339d835c0&d=DwMFaQ&c=5VD0RTtNlTh3ycd41b3MUw&r=ArvepG4_wcNu_X9xi3nb_Xa9WsGLVfmK6mwPdVONOTE&m=ND7ZApITUWcY-AGWW-_XmLkHgYwmBASHLBNQMyrgsic&s=-qg1_epre_4j91N-fAFREat3MAWl9VoUnJoc2YcDx8Y&e=> <https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=https-3A__www.ft.com_content_38a92d42-2Deba1-2D11e8-2D89c8-2Dd36339d835c0&d=DwMFaQ&c=5VD0RTtNlTh3ycd41b3MUw&r=ArvepG4_wcNu_X9xi3nb_Xa9WsGLVfmK6mwPdVONOTE&m=ND7ZApITUWcY-AGWW-_XmLkHgYwmBASHLBNQMyrgsic&s=-qg1_epre_4j91N-fAFREat3MAWl9VoUnJoc2YcDx8Y&e=> Opinion today: Facebook's excessive focus on profits Regulation looms for social media — much as big banks after the financial crisis On Tuesday, November 20, 2018, 6:53:35 PM GMT+3, Ebele Okobi <ebeleokobi@fb.com<mailto:ebeleokobi@fb.com>> wrote: What is an “educating” model? How do you think policing works in society? Are there police assigned to each individual, actively monitoring each? How do you think actual communities work? If not for community, exactly how should a platform of 2.4 billion people posting billions of pieces of content per hour, the vast majority of which is completely innocuous, work, in your view? On Nov 20, 2018, at 3:43 PM, Patrick A. M. Maina <pmaina2000@yahoo.com<mailto:pmaina2000@yahoo.com>> wrote: It kinda looks a bit like an *nudged* duty.. :-) otherwise, why would low levels of reporting be an issue if the system does not heavily *rely* on community reporting (yay! free labor!)? Doesn't the community have its own engagements to focus on and should facebook not respect that? Are you sure that FB truly supports free expression or is it not that its just cheaper (more profitable) to offload policing to the community? If the FB platform truly supported "free expression" things would be more complicated because instead of takedowns, you would use an *educating model* which is much harder to pull off. Sidenotes: a. I'm curious how FB defines "free expression". b. On the Child marriage, FB acted after it was too late (girl had been sold off). This suggests heavy reliance on community policing. Is this a form of wilful negligence on the platform part because by now FB is aware that it is being misused for anti-social purposes? Good evening. Patrick. "We continue to evolve our ability to detect violations on our platforms, but YES, it is YOU, the community, who helps to police the content on Facebook. I continue to be struck by the incredibly low levels of reporting across our Continent. We continue to develop educational materials, but I am always surprised at how few people, even in circles like this, know to report bad content into the platform." On Tuesday, November 20, 2018, 6:14:11 PM GMT+3, Ebele Okobi <ebeleokobi@fb.com<mailto:ebeleokobi@fb.com>> wrote: At no point did I say that the community has a duty to report or that the community is to blame. Facebook responds to the community when the report. This gives the community the power to let us know when something is wrong. Why would anyone *not* want the ability to report? Would it be preferable to have a platform where every single post, picture, comment is subject to pre-clearance, by Facebook? I find it odd that anyone interested in free expression would want such a model. From: kictanet <kictanet-bounces+ebeleokobi=fb.com@lists.kictanet.or.ke<mailto:kictanet-bounces+ebeleokobi=fb.com@lists.kictanet.or.ke>> on behalf of "Patrick A. M. Maina via kictanet" <kictanet@lists.kictanet.or.ke<mailto:kictanet@lists.kictanet.or.ke>> Reply-To: "Patrick A. M. Maina" <pmaina2000@yahoo.com<mailto:pmaina2000@yahoo.com>>, KICTAnet ICT Policy Discussions <kictanet@lists.kictanet.or.ke<mailto:kictanet@lists.kictanet.or.ke>> Date: Tuesday, November 20, 2018 at 2:44 PM To: Ebele Okobi <ebeleokobi@fb.com<mailto:ebeleokobi@fb.com>> Cc: "Patrick A. M. Maina" <pmaina2000@yahoo.com<mailto:pmaina2000@yahoo.com>> Subject: Re: [kictanet] [should the victims be blamed? aren't platforms responsible as enablers and amplifiers?] Child marriage on facebook Some responses on this topic raise some interesting and important issues: 1. Do social media/messaging platform play a role in crime as amplifiers, enablers? 2. Would crimes be harder to pull off if such platform could, through enhanced technical functionality (which might not necessarily be profitable), not be easily used for organized criminal purpose? 3. Does the community owe the platform a duty to report (as alluded here, such that the community can be blamed for platform misuse)? How much blame does the community share? 4. If indeed the community has a duty to help FB police its platform, will FB also share its revenues with the community seeing as they are its informal "employees" as well? Or are they only buddies in bad times but strangers in good times? 5. Do (or should) victims of social media enabled harm (including, say, businesses that lose sales due to chaos or governments whose economies are effectively sabotaged) have recourse against the platform owner? To what extent? Who else should own the problem and why? I think the "deflect blame to the victims" script is unwise and could backfire. It would probably cause an uproar if used in more assertive parts of the world (i.e. in developed countries/regions). Good day listers, Patrick. On Tuesday, November 20, 2018, 3:52:31 PM GMT+3, Wainaina Mungai via kictanet <kictanet@lists.kictanet.or.ke<mailto:kictanet@lists.kictanet.or.ke>> wrote: Hi, Facebook as increased their staff significantly to help police what is posted. We may want not to blame the medium used and focus more on addressing the culture of marrying off children of any gender in any country. That way, we remain focussed on 'children's rights'. The main offenders in this case are the "sellers" and "buyers" who took part in the auction. In the end, the extent of regulation will depend on mutistakeholder negotiations on the balance between an open Internet for all and the need to protect privacy, security and human rights online. Wainaina On 20 Nov 2018 15:18, evelyne wanjiku via kictanet <kictanet@lists.kictanet.or.ke<mailto:kictanet@lists.kictanet.or.ke>> wrote: Hi listers, Im following a debate on cnn about this south sudanese 'baby bride' who was auctioned on fb. It brings me back to this question, who should regulate facebook? Some argue fb is too big to regulate all the things that happen on their platform. Who should police fb? Is it us? We have power to shut down our pages if we dont agree with what goes on in their...but we don't. Why? Is it facebook? Do they care about being responsible especially in Africa? Is it government? And just how far can the government reach? Or should we just relax and face the beginning of the end by having an attitude of anything goes as long we have internet. Nice day everyone. Sent from Yahoo Mail on Android<https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=https-3A__go.onelink.me_107872968-3Fpid-3DInProduct-26c-3DGlobal-5FInternal-5FYGrowth-5FAndroidEmailSig-5F-5FAndroidUsers-26af-5Fwl-3Dym-26af-5Fsub1-3DInternal-26af-5Fsub2-3DGlobal-5FYGrowth-26af-5Fsub3-3DEmailSignature&d=DwMFaQ&c=5VD0RTtNlTh3ycd41b3MUw&r=ArvepG4_wcNu_X9xi3nb_Xa9WsGLVfmK6mwPdVONOTE&m=Nigt8RJiRKFRYalz6qcspoN5s9aV8sUPUStJNxQ09c0&s=I4IOH2koaO6-NJjPRvRdexDJ7Ql-pcmXaIrU78dSQr0&e=> _______________________________________________ kictanet mailing list kictanet@lists.kictanet.or.ke<mailto:kictanet@lists.kictanet.or.ke> https://lists.kictanet.or.ke/mailman/listinfo/kictanet<https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=https-3A__lists.kictanet.or.ke_mailman_listinfo_kictanet&d=DwMFaQ&c=5VD0RTtNlTh3ycd41b3MUw&r=ArvepG4_wcNu_X9xi3nb_Xa9WsGLVfmK6mwPdVONOTE&m=Nigt8RJiRKFRYalz6qcspoN5s9aV8sUPUStJNxQ09c0&s=1IkGlwtZrFSlDdArXzLxsAEC8Czi6lfk7MdtMKSwIBg&e=> Twitter: http://twitter.com/kictanet<https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=http-3A__twitter.com_kictanet&d=DwMFaQ&c=5VD0RTtNlTh3ycd41b3MUw&r=ArvepG4_wcNu_X9xi3nb_Xa9WsGLVfmK6mwPdVONOTE&m=Nigt8RJiRKFRYalz6qcspoN5s9aV8sUPUStJNxQ09c0&s=7xCG8z1Jt76BbPAx71u7hm523bjmRI7_a7K8mpxlPZ0&e=> Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/KICTANet/ Domain Registration sponsored by www.eacdirectory.co.ke<https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=http-3A__www.eacdirectory.co.ke&d=DwMFaQ&c=5VD0RTtNlTh3ycd41b3MUw&r=ArvepG4_wcNu_X9xi3nb_Xa9WsGLVfmK6mwPdVONOTE&m=ND7ZApITUWcY-AGWW-_XmLkHgYwmBASHLBNQMyrgsic&s=hoV-MvFtkR_byHfGtk0S9IINKvi4nJoBRMEwL5SELEU&e=> Unsubscribe or change your options at https://lists.kictanet.or.ke/mailman/options/kictanet/pmaina2000%40yahoo.com<https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=https-3A__lists.kictanet.or.ke_mailman_options_kictanet_pmaina2000-2540yahoo.com&d=DwMFaQ&c=5VD0RTtNlTh3ycd41b3MUw&r=ArvepG4_wcNu_X9xi3nb_Xa9WsGLVfmK6mwPdVONOTE&m=Nigt8RJiRKFRYalz6qcspoN5s9aV8sUPUStJNxQ09c0&s=FsTedFucoLNyMt0sShCdaLskvAmiS2lA5uq_6-r4EEw&e=> The Kenya ICT Action Network (KICTANet) is a multi-stakeholder platform for people and institutions interested and involved in ICT policy and regulation. 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On Mon, 3 Dec 2018, 18:58 Gabriel via kictanet < kictanet@lists.kictanet.or.ke wrote:
Folks,
As the internet opens up to global opportunities so does it also make present the dark side of it. It’s a case of what outweighs what..... truth of the matter is, it’s hard (actually almost impossible) to regulate the net in a democracy that believes censorship of freedom of press and social rights is/are undemocratic.
Get Outlook for iOS <https://aka.ms/o0ukef>
------------------------------ *From:* kictanet <kictanet-bounces+gwarigi=msn.com@lists.kictanet.or.ke> on behalf of WANGARI KABIRU via kictanet <kictanet@lists.kictanet.or.ke> *Sent:* Tuesday, November 20, 2018 11:01 PM *To:* gwarigi@msn.com *Cc:* WANGARI KABIRU *Subject:* Re: [kictanet] [should the victims be blamed? aren't platforms responsible as enablers and amplifiers?] Child marriage on facebook
(This kindly is not for FB response)
I pick on a statement and look into a possible future of mobile money " The problem set is a platform with 2.4 billion people, posting billions of pieces of content. "
One day this might be a problem from one of the FinTech firms or online retailers. Painted in $$$$$$ terms money transaction posted by clients or purchase transactions.
Design thinkers, an early business opportunity with your clients.
*Wrt the early marriages, may all girls and boys experience fullness of childhood!
Be blessed. Regards/Wangari
On Nov 20, 2018 20:39, "Patrick A. M. Maina via kictanet" < kictanet@lists.kictanet.or.ke> wrote:
Then it looks like you have everything under control. :-)
Hope the problems gets solved soonest for the sake of us all.
Best wishes!
On Tuesday, November 20, 2018, 8:30:08 PM GMT+3, Ebele Okobi < ebeleokobi@fb.com> wrote:
The problem set is a platform with 2.4 billion people, posting billions of pieces of content. We have some proactive review, of things like child exploitation content, but it is really difficult to pre-review every single piece of content at this scale. It’s also not even what a majority of users want. I know that I personally, use FB a great deal, and I would not want that.
In order to ensure that *no* bad content is posted, that is, actually, what would be necessary. This is actually an issue we have spent a great deal of time thinking about, with multiple experts, and while there are more ways we are identifying content, a state of no bad content ever posted, or a system that would enable FB itself to be aware of every single piece of content-this is a genuine question-how do you think that would work?
Saying “private tech platform” doesn’t answer the question-detecting crime is still detecting crime/bad actors, and it’s still not clear from this phrase how you think this would work, irl.
We pay multiple consultants and confer with thousands of rights activists, safety advocates, CSOs, law enforcement, etc, and it’s not apparent from this exchange that you are an expert in any of the topics discussed, so the notion that my genuine interest in your opinion amounts to a request for free consulting is odd.
On Nov 20, 2018, at 5:16 PM, Patrick A. M. Maina <pmaina2000@yahoo.com> wrote:
Sawa, in-line answers below...
On Tuesday, November 20, 2018, 7:52:11 PM GMT+3, Ebele Okobi < ebeleokobi@fb.com> wrote:
You haven’t answered any of my questions.
I have repasted, for reference-
Would it be preferable to have a platform where every single post, picture, comment is subject to pre-clearance, by Facebook? A: Are those the only options? Is that the only alternative to status-quo? What happened to open innovation? Ideas for better *technical* solutions exist, but the good ones are not free.
How do you think policing works in society? A: Policing in FB is not analogous to policing in society. FB is a private tech platform.
Are there police assigned to each individual, actively monitoring each? A: pls. see above answer.
How do you think actual communities work? A: pls. see above answer.
If not for community, exactly how should a platform of 2.4 billion people posting billions of pieces of content per hour, the vast majority of which is completely innocuous, work, in your view? A: I could tell you but that would be free consulting. :-).
What is an “educating” model? A: Again, I can't do free consulting to billion dollar companies.
FB could try an "innovation competition" to get a cheap/free brainstorm on the issue but I think people globally are wising up on the odds around such events and so the quality of ideas is going down. Probably another area that needs new thinking.
Enjoy your evening! :-) Patrick.
On Nov 20, 2018, at 4:45 PM, Patrick A. M. Maina <pmaina2000@yahoo.com> wrote:
On the "educating model", I can do some ad-hoc paid consulting for you guys if you haven't thought of it. Lets discuss offline if interested.
I don't understand the society argument... Facebook is not "society". It is a *for-profit business entity* founded on what looks like a predatory business model which exploits human/society's weakness (e.g. narcissism, personal insecurities, reward mechanisms in the brain etc) for monetized data and engagement.
There's an interesting pattern that I hadn't originally picked on... It looks like mega corporations embrace pseudo-communism ideals to avoid owning problems that *they* created/exacerbated: "Beloved users, the problem belongs to *all of us*, because we need each other as a community. So each one of you should give mega-corp a free lunch because its good for you".. but when it comes to *profits*, they revert to pure capitalism "our profits belong to shareholders only. we are capitalists. no free lunches!".
Take ownership.
Opinion today: Facebook's excessive focus on profits <https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=https-3A__www.ft.com_content_38a92d42-2Deba1-2D11e8-2D89c8-2Dd36339d835c0&d=DwMFaQ&c=5VD0RTtNlTh3ycd41b3MUw&r=ArvepG4_wcNu_X9xi3nb_Xa9WsGLVfmK6mwPdVONOTE&m=ND7ZApITUWcY-AGWW-_XmLkHgYwmBASHLBNQMyrgsic&s=-qg1_epre_4j91N-fAFREat3MAWl9VoUnJoc2YcDx8Y&e=>
Opinion today: Facebook's excessive focus on profits
Regulation looms for social media — much as big banks after the financial crisis
On Tuesday, November 20, 2018, 6:53:35 PM GMT+3, Ebele Okobi < ebeleokobi@fb.com> wrote:
What is an “educating” model?
How do you think policing works in society? Are there police assigned to each individual, actively monitoring each? How do you think actual communities work?
If not for community, exactly how should a platform of 2.4 billion people posting billions of pieces of content per hour, the vast majority of which is completely innocuous, work, in your view?
On Nov 20, 2018, at 3:43 PM, Patrick A. M. Maina <pmaina2000@yahoo.com> wrote:
It kinda looks a bit like an *nudged* duty.. :-) otherwise, why would low levels of reporting be an issue if the system does not heavily *rely* on community reporting (yay! free labor!)? Doesn't the community have its own engagements to focus on and should facebook not respect that?
Are you sure that FB truly supports free expression or is it not that its just cheaper (more profitable) to offload policing to the community?
If the FB platform truly supported "free expression" things would be more complicated because instead of takedowns, you would use an *educating model* which is much harder to pull off.
Sidenotes: *a.* I'm curious how FB defines "free expression". *b.* On the Child marriage, FB acted after it was too late (girl had been sold off). This suggests heavy reliance on community policing. Is this a form of wilful negligence on the platform part because by now FB is aware that it is being misused for anti-social purposes?
Good evening. Patrick.
"We continue to evolve our ability to detect violations on our platforms, but YES, it is YOU, the community, who helps to police the content on Facebook.
I continue to be struck by the incredibly low levels of reporting across our Continent. We continue to develop educational materials, but I am always surprised at how few people, even in circles like this, know to report bad content into the platform."
On Tuesday, November 20, 2018, 6:14:11 PM GMT+3, Ebele Okobi < ebeleokobi@fb.com> wrote:
At no point did I say that the community has a duty to report or that the community is to blame. Facebook responds to the community when the report. This gives the community the power to let us know when something is wrong. Why would anyone **not** want the ability to report?
Would it be preferable to have a platform where every single post, picture, comment is subject to pre-clearance, by Facebook? I find it odd that anyone interested in free expression would want such a model.
*From: *kictanet <kictanet-bounces+ebeleokobi=fb.com@lists.kictanet.or.ke> on behalf of "Patrick A. M. Maina via kictanet" < kictanet@lists.kictanet.or.ke> *Reply-To: *"Patrick A. M. Maina" <pmaina2000@yahoo.com>, KICTAnet ICT Policy Discussions <kictanet@lists.kictanet.or.ke> *Date: *Tuesday, November 20, 2018 at 2:44 PM *To: *Ebele Okobi <ebeleokobi@fb.com> *Cc: *"Patrick A. M. Maina" <pmaina2000@yahoo.com> *Subject: *Re: [kictanet] [should the victims be blamed? aren't platforms responsible as enablers and amplifiers?] Child marriage on facebook
Some responses on this topic raise some interesting and important issues:
1. Do social media/messaging platform play a role in crime as amplifiers, enablers?
2. Would crimes be harder to pull off if such platform could, through enhanced technical functionality (which might not necessarily be profitable), not be easily used for organized criminal purpose?
3. Does the community owe the platform a duty to report (as alluded here, such that the community can be blamed for platform misuse)? How much blame does the community share?
4. If indeed the community has a duty to help FB police its platform, will FB also share its revenues with the community seeing as they are its informal "employees" as well? Or are they only buddies in bad times but strangers in good times?
5. Do (or should) victims of social media enabled harm (including, say, businesses that lose sales due to chaos or governments whose economies are effectively sabotaged) have recourse against the platform owner? To what extent? Who else should own the problem and why?
I think the "deflect blame to the victims" script is unwise and could backfire. It would probably cause an uproar if used in more assertive parts of the world (i.e. in developed countries/regions).
Good day listers,
Patrick.
On Tuesday, November 20, 2018, 3:52:31 PM GMT+3, Wainaina Mungai via kictanet <kictanet@lists.kictanet.or.ke> wrote:
Hi,
Facebook as increased their staff significantly to help police what is posted. We may want not to blame the medium used and focus more on addressing the culture of marrying off children of any gender in any country. That way, we remain focussed on 'children's rights'.
The main offenders in this case are the "sellers" and "buyers" who took part in the auction.
In the end, the extent of regulation will depend on mutistakeholder negotiations on the balance between an open Internet for all and the need to protect privacy, security and human rights online.
Wainaina
On 20 Nov 2018 15:18, evelyne wanjiku via kictanet < kictanet@lists.kictanet.or.ke> wrote:
Hi listers,
Im following a debate on cnn about this south sudanese 'baby bride' who was auctioned on fb.
It brings me back to this question, who should regulate facebook? Some argue fb is too big to regulate all the things that happen on their platform.
Who should police fb? Is it us? We have power to shut down our pages if we dont agree with what goes on in their...but we don't. Why?
Is it facebook? Do they care about being responsible especially in Africa?
Is it government? And just how far can the government reach?
Or should we just relax and face the beginning of the end by having an attitude of anything goes as long we have internet.
Nice day everyone.
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participants (10)
-
Admin CampusCiti -
Ali Hussein -
Ebele Okobi -
evelyne wanjiku -
florence mwangangi -
Gabriel -
Hannington Oduor -
Patrick A. M. Maina -
Wainaina Mungai -
WANGARI KABIRU