Re: [kictanet] ICT Authority to weed out quacks
Fellow Listers, (Please read through until the end before reacting.) It is unfortunate that this issue has arisen before the dust from the ICT Practioners Bill has settled. There are a lot of pent up emotions (and rightly so) associated with confronting policy corruption. This has not only affected ICT but other fields (I seem to be the only one angered by some of the sections of the Science, Technology and Innovation Act). It is also unfortunate that that the subject of this thread is misleading or incomplete at best and that the journalist who penned this piece did not take the time to dissect the issues. For example, there is no explicit statement that this applies only to government expenditure and the reference at the end is vague (“…that the government has an interest in.”) Nevertheless, government agencies have a duty to protect the public’s interests in delivering service to the people. In this case, the issue is the use of public funds (not private capital) in procuring government contracts and the ICTA is proposing regulation to this end. Please remember that the mandate of ICTA is to serve the government and not the private sector. “The Authority is tasked with rationalising and streamlining the management of all Government of Kenya ICT functions.” (from http://www.icta.go.ke/ict-authority/ <http://www.icta.go.ke/ict-authority/>). To the best of my understanding (and the functions of the ICTA) the statement by the CEO have no bearing on private procurement and application of ICT to private business. This is not a move to regulate the ICT sector but to secure the procurement of ICT services in government functions. In other words, quacks are those who are stealing public funds by masquerading as ICT professionals. Now, who would be opposed to that? I think paranoia is beginning to get the better of us… Dr. Paul Korir, PhD +44 7780 283 183 Ordnung muß sein
On 2 Dec 2016, at 16:11, kictanet-request@lists.kictanet.or.ke wrote:
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Today's Topics:
1. Re: ICT Authority to weed out quacks (Ahmed Mohamed Maawy)
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Message: 1 Date: Fri, 2 Dec 2016 16:09:25 +0300 From: Ahmed Mohamed Maawy <ultimateprogramer@gmail.com> To: KICTAnet ICT Policy Discussions <kictanet@lists.kictanet.or.ke> Cc: Collins Areba <arebacollins@gmail.com>, JImmy Gitonga <jimmygitts@gmail.com> Subject: Re: [kictanet] ICT Authority to weed out quacks Message-ID: <CAPZHszM0wX=0mx3asX1sP8vq3Dp0sify4yFNCxr0kK_FuqDBFQ@mail.gmail.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8"
Fellows,
We will be the 1st market in the history of the world to kill innovation by regulating it.
According to Wikipedia *Innovation* is defined simply as a "*new idea, device, or method*". However, innovation is often also viewed as the *application of better solutions that meet new requirements, unarticulated needs*, or existing market needs. This is accomplished through more-effective products, processes, services, technologies, or business models that are readily available to markets, governments and society. The term "innovation" can be defined as something original and more effective and, as a consequence, new, that "breaks into" the market or society. It is related to, but not the same as, invention.
If Innovation is related to invention. Who in the world ever invented anything under a very strict regulatory framework ?? Isn't it that we constantly talk about people who invented new things to break the norm? (including status quo in a society hell bent to set norms and standards to tell people like Thomas Edisson that he can't do a lightbulb and the Wright Brothers that they can't fly?)
Again, And what school ever taught an inventor to invent anything?
The kid in Maasai Mara who invented a technology to scare away lions (and got TV airtime just because someone discovered him with a mindset outside the education system) - did he ever go to school?
Can we go on giving countless statements on this?
On Fri, Dec 2, 2016 at 3:30 PM, Collins Areba via kictanet < kictanet@lists.kictanet.or.ke> wrote:
Thank you Andrew: a true geriatric in this world. (I did my fair share of fortran 77 btw)
I think the problem is clear: irregular tendering, leading in quacks being awarded tenders for one reason or another at the expense of legitimately qualified suppliers. Now, if you ask me, Thats the domain of Public Procurements Oversight Authority.
Maybe the said parties should seek representation in the said authority, or maybe we should seek a common "ICT practitioners" position or checklist for the PPPOA to consider when setting rules.
My 2 cents.
On Fri, Dec 2, 2016 at 3:06 PM, Kevin Kamonye via kictanet < kictanet@lists.kictanet.or.ke> wrote:
My ideal scenario as regards to post secondary school;
1. Enroll for a program like NYS/ Police/ Military for at least 1 year to learn essential life skills. 2. Continue serving or get into the job market for at least 2 years doing some paid internship/apprenticeship (savings scheme for school fees ) 3. Go for Undergraduate studies - Dip/Bachelor (part-time/ distance learning for non-eng. courses) 4. Back to work - start of specialisation for at least 5 years 5. Masters etc. but after a very thorough interviewing/ career review process before being enrolled to any program
These certifications are in some ways hurting the industry. But I guess they are a necessary evil as the job market is flooded with people who can get the job done.
Perhaps we should have a common framework that acts as a lifetime Continuous Assesment Test (CAT) for every sector of the industry that is publicly and commonly administered by selected panels for every region. Like a LinkedIN where endorsements for skills actually mean something.
As for me, the industry I have been trying to break into to start my specialisation (Cyber Security OPs) seems to have a thing for seeing the entire alphabet on your CV :) This quack has thrown in the towel and am back at school (actually started my end of semester exams today).
Kevin
On 2 December 2016 at 14:35, JImmy Gitonga via kictanet < kictanet@lists.kictanet.or.ke> wrote:
Wow Andrew,
It seems that is everyone's journey here until "recently" when Computer Science became a course in our universities. I am a "quack" as much as you are.
I loved the story and all the best.
So, Listers, this is my take. The problem is that the government has allowed tenderpreneurs to flourish in every sector, and the experts in the government, who ought to supervise, are compromised for various reasons.
We are just feeling the heat now because we are in the way of the rent seekers. Look at our mechanical engineering sector and see the chaos caused by "regulation".
Regards
Jimmy Gitonga *Web and Motion*
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1. Re: ICT Authority to weed out quacks (Andrew Alston)
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Message: 1 Date: Fri, 2 Dec 2016 11:10:41 +0000 From: Andrew Alston <Andrew.Alston@liquidtelecom.com> To: KICTAnet ICT Policy Discussions <kictanet@lists.kictanet.or.ke> Subject: Re: [kictanet] ICT Authority to weed out quacks Message-ID: <AMSPR03MB534A8D637B9580FA82CDF1AEE8E0@AMSPR03MB534.eurprd03 .prod.outlook.com>
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Hi All,
I wade into this debate with a great degree of caution, but at the same time I feel it would be amiss not to tell my own story ? and let you judge my stance from that.
When I was 12 years old, living in South Africa, I walked door to door at every computer shop in the town I lived in, begging for a chance to help out in the stores ? I didn?t want money ? I wanted to be near the machines. There was a guy, interestingly he shared my first name, and decided he?d give me a chance, and so at 12 years old I started showing up on Saturdays and installing dos on machines and installing windows 3.1 and hanging around their workshop. By the time I was 13, I was putting together machines for them. They were even kind enough to give me the equivalent of 140 KSH for a Saturday morning.
Somewhere along the way, I got hold of a copy of turbo pascal and begged pleaded and borrowed some manuals and taught myself how to program, first in pascal, and then in assembler. By the time I was 16, I was then faced with a choice. I could stick with high school, finish, leave at the same time as everyone else, go to universities, spend years getting a degree, and then enter the job market at the same time as all my school friends. Or, due to the age of the industry and how new it was where I was growing up, I could leave school, get a job, and get a 2 and a half year experience head start on everyone I was at school with. I made my choice, and in around March, 3 months into grade 10, I clearly remember getting up in the middle of science class, and walking out. I never went back.
By the time I left though, I had already organized myself a job, relying on the experience I had working in computer stores for the previous 3 and a half odd years, and relying on the fact that I could already program. So, I got on a bus, at age 16, travelled a thousand kilometres down to Cape Town and started my working life. Over the next few years, I worked my ass off, earned just enough money to keep me afloat, and eventually started my own IT security company, got defrauded, went broke as a result, got up, and started again. Eventually ending up working for the University of Cape Town in their IT department. While there I started moonlighting for TENET (the South African academic network), and eventually ended up as their CTO where I was for 6 years. After leaving there and doing a whole bunch of contracting (primarily for various universities), I took a contract with Liquid which eventually ended up becoming permanent and I ended up where I am today, in a senior position building networks across the continent.
The point of this story is ? there are individuals out there who have chosen a different route ? I am not alone in the path I took, and I am not special, I was not born to wealth and honestly I don?t think I could have afforded to go to University anyway ? my parents certainly didn?t have the money to pay for it, nor was I born with insane brain power, I merely chose to find my own path and work hard to reach the heights I have. And in all of this ? I fail to see why any system should penalize people such as myself, and indirectly penalize the people who I could share my knowledge and experience with. I fail to see why a qualification actually matters if someone can *prove* they can do the job ? and do it well, with an equal amount of passion, drive and skill, however it was acquired.
Obviously, this post is written from an intensely personal perspective, but I argue that there are many who shared the path I chose to walk, and I believe that anything that removes the ability of these people to contribute to society and to our industry, is unfair, dangerous and against the interests of the industry as a whole.
I know that I am PROUD to work in this industry, it is with pride that I stand among my colleagues, both Kenyan and otherwise, both certified and non-certified, and I just want the opportunity to continue the work I have dedicated the last 21 years of my life to and continue to build this industry and be able to contribute.
Just my thoughts
Andrew
From: kictanet [mailto:kictanet-bounces+andrew.alston= liquidtelecom.com@lists.kictanet.or.ke] On Behalf Of Dorcas Muthoni via kictanet Sent: 02 December 2016 11:53 To: Andrew Alston <Andrew.Alston@liquidtelecom.com> Cc: Dorcas Muthoni <dmuthoni@gmail.com> Subject: Re: [kictanet] ICT Authority to weed out quacks
Unfortunately, judging from my experience, both in public and private sector, HR and top IT management do indeed either get it wrong, lack ability or sometimes objectivity while onboarding vendors or staff.
In which case, industry professionals can help in defining a criteria for all. This of course should also be shared with tertiary institutions and universities.
As we know, new professions are being defined daily. Some core fundamentals remain the same.
On Dec 2, 2016 11:27 AM, "Francis Nderitu via kictanet" < kictanet@lists.kictanet.or.ke<mailto:kictanet@lists.kictanet.or.ke>> wrote: In my own view this kind of vetting they are asking for should be institutional but not individual - which is already happening naturally. Does Company A have the capacity to offer service XYZ? That kind of approach could be helpful, just like in the construction industry, diffrent companies have diffrent clearance level.
On Fri, Dec 2, 2016 at 11:03 AM, Nelson J kwaje via kictanet < kictanet@lists.kictanet.or.ke<mailto:kictanet@lists.kictanet.or.ke>> wrote:
@James,
I like how people are open minded about ICT professional. it is okay to be a drop out, it is okay to not have any qualifications, just have passion and be good at what you do.
Doctors and Pilots used to be treated the same way. few regulations, few standards and no regularity body until we realized that our lives depends on these people and their mistakes can be catastrophic.
The ICT Industry is heading in the same direction. our errors are starting to cause some serious damages and the society is right when it demands some yardstick to know who is who.
Will you fly with an uncertified pilot ?
Can you go to the operating theater with a passionate and committed doctor but no certificate ?
Why will you accept anyone to mange the system for your bank, hospital, airport and even national security.
Cheers
Nelson
On 02/12/2016 10:42 WD, James Muendo wrote: Nelson,
"we can not sit and and watch as the industry gets diluted in the name of innovation and disruption."
I think what you have quoted there is what drives the profession and the industry at large. What you are suggesting is we curb creativity of people who seek to curb a niche out of the huge industry. As Ahmed said, this is not like professions, like, being a doctor or a lawyer that have a pre-set set of standards. If anything, the industry thrives on its dynamic nature, which leads to disruption and innovation.
On that I beg to disagree with you. Also, in terms of standards, if we look outside .KE, what other country/town has ICT standards?
Am with Ngigi in this one, we need to separate business from profession. The tricky bit, would be, what criteria will you use to do so.
Regards,
On 2 December 2016 at 10:28, Nelson J kwaje via kictanet < kictanet@lists.kictanet.or.ke<mailto:kictanet@lists.kictanet.or.ke>> wrote:
Let us face it, the ICT Industry has a problem with standards, ambiguity rules the ICT Industry in Kenya. the words below can have as many meanings as the are ICT professionals
* Cloud Solution * Software Architect * Software Developer * IoT * Web APP * and many other
we can not sit and and watch as the industry gets diluted in the name of innovation and disruption.
On 02/12/2016 10:12 WD, Dorcas Muthoni via kictanet wrote:
My point is, chaos are eminent in the industry. Is it what we want.. NO.
Then, let's agree on the criteria. ICT Authority is part of the KICTANET community, let's engage them, instead of shooting in your defense. Let's get a constructive multi-stakeholder engagement.
I am afraid that having a few highly opinionated people rule mailing lists stalls multi-stakeholder participation.
I hope that the ICT Authority is listening somewhere.
On Dec 2, 2016 10:00 AM, "Ahmed Mohamed Maawy via kictanet" < kictanet@lists.kictanet.or.ke<mailto:kictanet@lists.kictanet.or.ke>> wrote: Its not really about why people feel insecure. Its about what policy is meant to do. Why? Technologists are not doctors or lawyers. With all due respect. What does the education system offer as a yardstick for competence? Most of us got jobs before we even graduated school. And we went on to work for projects and institutions that went on to win Awards in the international arena.
You see, IT is not about being a Doctor or being a Lawyer (where theory is a factor). IT is an operational field. IT, more than any other field - is based on Talent. Not much on Knowledge. This is why we have so many people out of Uni looking for Internships that they can not find. In a market where the dynamics are governed by people who did not even do that degree - to drive technical jobs.
And yes, we have several CEOs in several companies who (and some of them entrepreneur their own way through) did not even do a BCom at the least. Some of them did not even see an higher learning institution. We need to understand that the market dynamics are shifting. Schools in developing are evolving. Why? Because Technology has changed the education field. The education field is not changing technology. Apologies if we believe so. Just my two cents.
On Fri, Dec 2, 2016 at 9:39 AM, Collins Areba via kictanet < kictanet@lists.kictanet.or.ke<mailto:kictanet@lists.kictanet.or.ke>> wrote: @Dorcas. Before we even get to answering why many people are insecure about the discussion, I would point to the more obvious question. What are the protagonists trying to do? what are they trying to solve? Unfortunately thus far, It is not clear. What is in need of regulation? and why does it need to be regulated? is this regulation for regulation's sake?
I did mention yesterday that from my point of view, Regulation makes sense only where there is a limited resource, shared by many, which left without regulation would result in disorder and "law of the jungle". Which ICT component is this that needs to be streamlined to prevent it from spiralling out of control?
From where I sit, It feels like a bunch of individuals feel shortchanged about the time, effort and money they spent in learning "the science" only to come out here and find the arena flattened by the same technology. It feels like "the bill" which seeks to assign non existent value to those that feel some level of entitlement to that "ict professional" title purely on the basis of having done ICT formally.
I stand corrected.
On Fri, Dec 2, 2016 at 9:02 AM, Dorcas Muthoni via kictanet < kictanet@lists.kictanet.or.ke<mailto:kictanet@lists.kictanet.or.ke>> wrote:
Why are so many people insecure about this topic.
Can a bank CEO act as the principal legal officer of a bank? Why not?
Which Innovators are these people are referring to? As far as I know, most of the referenced global innovators dropped out of some computer science programs and employ thousands of highly qualified CS and engineering graduates.
I don't think starting a box-pushing or software license reselling entity coupled with hiring a few technicians can turn anyone into a domain professional. Let's get this straight and boldly address the true issues at hand.
Obviously, this loose arrangement is leading to the proliferation of extreme tender-prenuership.
Can anyone point me to potential local Bill Gates, Larry Page or Mark Mark Zuckerberg. We can't use such example to complicate this discussion.
If anything, we should be providing a friendly environment those with money and great experience invest in highly scalable startups.
Nothing bars anyone who falls short of an agreed criteria from working on it.
Obviously, we cannot water down such an important topic.
On Dec 1, 2016 10:28 PM, "Alfred Kinyua via kictanet" < kictanet@lists.kictanet.or.ke<mailto:kictanet@lists.kictanet.or.ke>> wrote:
Two things stand out, concerning ICT Authority. 1. Conformance of set standards (raising the bar). 2. locking out unqualified personnel, where government has interests . This is not a trivial issue, because one might be qualified but incompetent (theorists) / unsitable, while the opposite might be true, unqualufied but competent/suitable, this is true for ICT realtad mattets. Personally I thing further probing is required.
On Dec 1, 2016 22:01, "Beryl Aidi via kictanet" < kictanet@lists.kictanet.or.ke<mailto:kictanet@lists.kictanet.or.ke>> wrote: Hi All, Law and policy seldom exist in a vacuum. Does anyone know anywhere in the world where the kind of regulation or ICT standards being anticipated to be used to weed out quacks have been used successfully? Successfully here being key, which means no victimization of those without any certifications that may exist; startups; or those just playing around and happen to stumble on something that may end up taking the world by storm; and by no means a way to stifle internet freedoms. Anyone knows where such a model exists? My two cents.
Beryl Aidi
On Thu, Dec 1, 2016 at 9:41 PM, Waithaka Ngigi via kictanet < kictanet@lists.kictanet.or.ke<mailto:kictanet@lists.kictanet.or.ke>> wrote: In summary... ICT is "...A coalition of The Willing..."
Waithaka Ngigi
Alliance Technologies www.at.co.ke<http://www.at.co.ke> From: Collins Areba via kictanet Sent: Thursday, December 1, 2016 9:30 PM To: Ngigi Waithaka Reply To: KICTAnet ICT Policy Discussions Cc: Collins Areba; KICTAnet ICT Policy Discussions Subject: Re: [kictanet] ICT Authority to weed out quacks
Exactly! ICT is a disruptive sector. It is unfortunate when we attempt to define it as one would engineering, or architecture, or survey. The action - reaction - feedback - correction continum time wise is soo tiny. A decision for instance in some of these association, say which colour to paint a wall might take four months.
I would still ask, what is the problem we are trying to solve? If this can be defined we should be in a position to find solutions collectively.
On 1 Dec 2016 21:12, "Mwendwa Kivuva" <Kivuva@transworldafrica.com<m ailto:Kivuva@transworldafrica.com>> wrote:
The said procurement quacks are like Josephine Kabura. But they are not really quacks because they work as conduits for their masters in high places.
If it was possible to weed out "quacks" from the industry, the said masters would still use the "professionals" to commit heinous crimes.
Show me major scandals in Kenya conducted by quacks and I will show you a liar. Goldenberg, Anglo-leasing, euro bond...
On Dec 1, 2016 7:36 PM, "Collins Areba via kictanet" < kictanet@lists.kictanet.or.ke<mailto:kictanet@lists.kictanet.or.ke>> wrote:
I believe regulation should only be present where there is a limited, shared resource that might be subject to abuse. Short of having a set of rules: don't test an EMP in a built up area, don't access government servers even if their passwords are admin, admin. Don't give the president's number on twitter, etc etc etc. That is progressive legislation.
On 1 Dec 2016 18:24, "Collins Areba" <arebacollins@gmail.com<mailto: arebacollins@gmail.com>> wrote:
Dorcas: show me the chaos. Then we discuss order.
On 1 Dec 2016 18:17, "James Muendo" <james@muendo.co.ke<mailto:jam es@muendo.co.ke>> wrote: Collins,
+1
-- James Muendo
Chief Executive Officer (CEO),
Logic Craft Ltd,
Suite 39, 2nd Floor, Visions Plaza, Mombasa Road
P.O Box 28016 ? 00200,
Nairobi,KE
M:| +254.725.567.508 S: | tim.rick Gtalk:| james.muendo T: | @MmuendoW:| http://about.me/muendo
Too Brief? Here's Why
On Thu, Dec 1, 2016 at 6:15 PM +0300, "Collins Areba via kictanet" < kictanet@lists.kictanet.or.ke<mailto:kictanet@lists.kictanet.or.ke>> wrote:
Personally I seek examples of the damage done by the said quacks that professional institutions haven't done. The distinct point of departure which will show the distinct difference so as to justify regulation.
On 1 Dec 2016 17:32, "waudo siganga via kictanet" < kictanet@lists.kictanet.or.ke<mailto:kictanet@lists.kictanet.or.ke>> wrote: Kivuva, you forgot Zuckerberg.
On Thu, Dec 1, 2016, at 11:47 AM, Mwendwa Kivuva via kictanet wrote: College drop outs who rule the world.
Michael Saul Dell, William Henry ?Bill? Gates iii, Paul Gardner Allen, Lawrence Joseph Ellison, Stephen ?Woz? Wozniak, Steven Paul Jobs, Robert Edward ?Ted? Turner iii http://lord.me.ke/college-dropouts-who-rule-the-world/
I wonder who among those would be considered an ICT pro in Kenya.
______________________ Mwendwa Kivuva, Nairobi, Kenya twitter.com/lordmwesh<http://twitter.com/lordmwesh>
On 1 December 2016 at 12:03, Ali Hussein via kictanet < kictanet@lists.kictanet.or.ke<mailto:kictanet@lists.kictanet.or.ke>> wrote: The real important question has not been answered. Not since the term ICT started being used.
WHO IS AN ICT PRACTITIONER?
And who is this WATCHDOG who will abrogate himself/herself the role of GateKeeper and RentSeeker?
Ali Hussein Principal Hussein & Associates +254 0713 601113 <+254%20713%20601113><tel:+254%20713%20601113>
Twitter: @AliHKassim
Skype: abu-jomo
LinkedIn: http://ke.linkedin.com/in/alihkassim
"Discovery consists in seeing what everyone else has seen and thinking what no one else has thought". ~ Albert Szent-Gy?rgyi
Sent from my iPad
On 1 Dec 2016, at 10:51 AM, Athar Ahmad Bhatti via kictanet < kictanet@lists.kictanet.or.ke<mailto:kictanet@lists.kictanet.or.ke>> wrote:
Brian they will implant a chip in your brain and track your IQ to see whether you are fit for IT. Whereas the millennial generation will lose most as they are hands on.
Athar Ahmad Bhatti +254726488311 <+254%20726%20488311><tel:+254%20726%20488311>
On Thu, Dec 1, 2016 at 10:43 AM +0300, "Brian Muhia via kictanet" < kictanet@lists.kictanet.or.ke<mailto:kictanet@lists.kictanet.or.ke>> wrote:
This is only to be applied to people trying to do contract jobs for the government, right?
On Thu, Dec 1, 2016 at 10:27 AM WANGARI KABIRU via kictanet < kictanet@lists.kictanet.or.ke<mailto:kictanet@lists.kictanet.or.ke>> wrote: Blessed Thursday!
Might the sector be getting its shape?
Private schooling started as an innovative approach to education - now we even have more innovative home schooling and best practice approaches. Healthcare etc
Who has helped to weed out quacks proactively in most instances - it is the industry associations working with the governments. An angle to borrow from.
"....He said the authority will in the next couple of weeks launch ICT standards where every professional in the field seeking to serve public service must comply. ?One of the things which we are doing very soon in the next couple of weeks, is that we shall be launching ICT standard, these are ICT national standards and we plan on having them effective from first of January and based on that vendors will have to comply with the standards,? said the CEO, adding that those who will not comply to the standards will be blacklisted..."
How might the players engage in the discourse to give it shape while keep its jelly-nature?
Be blessed.
Regards/Wangari
--- Pray God Bless. 2013Wangari circa - "Being of the Light, We are Restored Through Faith in Mind, Body and Spirit; We Manifest The Kingdom of God on Earth".
On Thursday, 1 December 2016, 8:43, Ahmed Mohamed Maawy via kictanet < kictanet@lists.kictanet.or.ke<mailto:kictanet@lists.kictanet.or.ke>> wrote:
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Thank you Paul, But free speech is free speech. There is no paranoia here. Only freedom of expression. On 2 Dec 2016 4:50 p.m., "Paul Korir via kictanet" < kictanet@lists.kictanet.or.ke> wrote:
Fellow Listers, (Please read through until the end before reacting.)
It is unfortunate that this issue has arisen before the dust from the ICT Practioners Bill has settled. There are a lot of pent up emotions (and rightly so) associated with confronting policy corruption. This has not only affected ICT but other fields (I seem to be the only one angered by some of the sections of the Science, Technology and Innovation Act).
It is also unfortunate that that the subject of this thread is misleading or incomplete at best and that the journalist who penned this piece did not take the time to dissect the issues. For example, there is no explicit statement that this applies only to government expenditure and the reference at the end is vague (“…that the government has an interest in.”)
Nevertheless, government agencies have a duty to protect the public’s interests in delivering service to the people. In this case, the issue is the use of public funds (not private capital) in procuring government contracts and the ICTA is proposing regulation to this end. Please remember that the mandate of ICTA is to serve the government and not the private sector.
“The Authority is tasked with rationalising and streamlining the management of all Government of Kenya ICT functions.” (from http://www.icta.go.ke/ict-authority/).
To the best of my understanding (and the functions of the ICTA) the statement by the CEO have no bearing on private procurement and application of ICT to private business. This is not a move to regulate the ICT sector but to secure the procurement of ICT services in government functions. In other words, quacks are those who are stealing public funds by masquerading as ICT professionals. Now, who would be opposed to that?
I think paranoia is beginning to get the better of us…
Dr. Paul Korir, PhD +44 7780 283 183 <+44%207780%20283183> *Ordnung muß sein*
On 2 Dec 2016, at 16:11, kictanet-request@lists.kictanet.or.ke wrote:
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Today's Topics:
1. Re: ICT Authority to weed out quacks (Ahmed Mohamed Maawy)
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Message: 1 Date: Fri, 2 Dec 2016 16:09:25 +0300 From: Ahmed Mohamed Maawy <ultimateprogramer@gmail.com> To: KICTAnet ICT Policy Discussions <kictanet@lists.kictanet.or.ke> Cc: Collins Areba <arebacollins@gmail.com>, JImmy Gitonga <jimmygitts@gmail.com> Subject: Re: [kictanet] ICT Authority to weed out quacks Message-ID: <CAPZHszM0wX=0mx3asX1sP8vq3Dp0sify4yFNCxr0kK_FuqDBFQ@mail.gmail.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8"
Fellows,
We will be the 1st market in the history of the world to kill innovation by regulating it.
According to Wikipedia *Innovation* is defined simply as a "*new idea, device, or method*". However, innovation is often also viewed as the *application of better solutions that meet new requirements, unarticulated needs*, or existing market needs. This is accomplished through more-effective products, processes, services, technologies, or business models that are readily available to markets, governments and society. The term "innovation" can be defined as something original and more effective and, as a consequence, new, that "breaks into" the market or society. It is related to, but not the same as, invention.
If Innovation is related to invention. Who in the world ever invented anything under a very strict regulatory framework ?? Isn't it that we constantly talk about people who invented new things to break the norm? (including status quo in a society hell bent to set norms and standards to tell people like Thomas Edisson that he can't do a lightbulb and the Wright Brothers that they can't fly?)
Again, And what school ever taught an inventor to invent anything?
The kid in Maasai Mara who invented a technology to scare away lions (and got TV airtime just because someone discovered him with a mindset outside the education system) - did he ever go to school?
Can we go on giving countless statements on this?
On Fri, Dec 2, 2016 at 3:30 PM, Collins Areba via kictanet < kictanet@lists.kictanet.or.ke> wrote:
Thank you Andrew: a true geriatric in this world. (I did my fair share of fortran 77 btw)
I think the problem is clear: irregular tendering, leading in quacks being awarded tenders for one reason or another at the expense of legitimately qualified suppliers. Now, if you ask me, Thats the domain of Public Procurements Oversight Authority.
Maybe the said parties should seek representation in the said authority, or maybe we should seek a common "ICT practitioners" position or checklist for the PPPOA to consider when setting rules.
My 2 cents.
On Fri, Dec 2, 2016 at 3:06 PM, Kevin Kamonye via kictanet < kictanet@lists.kictanet.or.ke> wrote:
My ideal scenario as regards to post secondary school;
1. Enroll for a program like NYS/ Police/ Military for at least 1 year to learn essential life skills. 2. Continue serving or get into the job market for at least 2 years doing some paid internship/apprenticeship (savings scheme for school fees ) 3. Go for Undergraduate studies - Dip/Bachelor (part-time/ distance learning for non-eng. courses) 4. Back to work - start of specialisation for at least 5 years 5. Masters etc. but after a very thorough interviewing/ career review process before being enrolled to any program
These certifications are in some ways hurting the industry. But I guess they are a necessary evil as the job market is flooded with people who can get the job done.
Perhaps we should have a common framework that acts as a lifetime Continuous Assesment Test (CAT) for every sector of the industry that is publicly and commonly administered by selected panels for every region. Like a LinkedIN where endorsements for skills actually mean something.
As for me, the industry I have been trying to break into to start my specialisation (Cyber Security OPs) seems to have a thing for seeing the entire alphabet on your CV :) This quack has thrown in the towel and am back at school (actually started my end of semester exams today).
Kevin
On 2 December 2016 at 14:35, JImmy Gitonga via kictanet < kictanet@lists.kictanet.or.ke> wrote:
Wow Andrew,
It seems that is everyone's journey here until "recently" when Computer Science became a course in our universities. I am a "quack" as much as you are.
I loved the story and all the best.
So, Listers, this is my take. The problem is that the government has allowed tenderpreneurs to flourish in every sector, and the experts in the government, who ought to supervise, are compromised for various reasons.
We are just feeling the heat now because we are in the way of the rent seekers. Look at our mechanical engineering sector and see the chaos caused by "regulation".
Regards
Jimmy Gitonga *Web and Motion*
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1. Re: ICT Authority to weed out quacks (Andrew Alston)
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Message: 1 Date: Fri, 2 Dec 2016 11:10:41 +0000 From: Andrew Alston <Andrew.Alston@liquidtelecom.com> To: KICTAnet ICT Policy Discussions <kictanet@lists.kictanet.or.ke> Subject: Re: [kictanet] ICT Authority to weed out quacks Message-ID: <AMSPR03MB534A8D637B9580FA82CDF1AEE8E0@AMSPR03MB534.eurprd03 .prod.outlook.com>
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Hi All,
I wade into this debate with a great degree of caution, but at the same time I feel it would be amiss not to tell my own story ? and let you judge my stance from that.
When I was 12 years old, living in South Africa, I walked door to door at every computer shop in the town I lived in, begging for a chance to help out in the stores ? I didn?t want money ? I wanted to be near the machines. There was a guy, interestingly he shared my first name, and decided he?d give me a chance, and so at 12 years old I started showing up on Saturdays and installing dos on machines and installing windows 3.1 and hanging around their workshop. By the time I was 13, I was putting together machines for them. They were even kind enough to give me the equivalent of 140 KSH for a Saturday morning.
Somewhere along the way, I got hold of a copy of turbo pascal and begged pleaded and borrowed some manuals and taught myself how to program, first in pascal, and then in assembler. By the time I was 16, I was then faced with a choice. I could stick with high school, finish, leave at the same time as everyone else, go to universities, spend years getting a degree, and then enter the job market at the same time as all my school friends. Or, due to the age of the industry and how new it was where I was growing up, I could leave school, get a job, and get a 2 and a half year experience head start on everyone I was at school with. I made my choice, and in around March, 3 months into grade 10, I clearly remember getting up in the middle of science class, and walking out. I never went back.
By the time I left though, I had already organized myself a job, relying on the experience I had working in computer stores for the previous 3 and a half odd years, and relying on the fact that I could already program. So, I got on a bus, at age 16, travelled a thousand kilometres down to Cape Town and started my working life. Over the next few years, I worked my ass off, earned just enough money to keep me afloat, and eventually started my own IT security company, got defrauded, went broke as a result, got up, and started again. Eventually ending up working for the University of Cape Town in their IT department. While there I started moonlighting for TENET (the South African academic network), and eventually ended up as their CTO where I was for 6 years. After leaving there and doing a whole bunch of contracting (primarily for various universities), I took a contract with Liquid which eventually ended up becoming permanent and I ended up where I am today, in a senior position building networks across the continent.
The point of this story is ? there are individuals out there who have chosen a different route ? I am not alone in the path I took, and I am not special, I was not born to wealth and honestly I don?t think I could have afforded to go to University anyway ? my parents certainly didn?t have the money to pay for it, nor was I born with insane brain power, I merely chose to find my own path and work hard to reach the heights I have. And in all of this ? I fail to see why any system should penalize people such as myself, and indirectly penalize the people who I could share my knowledge and experience with. I fail to see why a qualification actually matters if someone can *prove* they can do the job ? and do it well, with an equal amount of passion, drive and skill, however it was acquired.
Obviously, this post is written from an intensely personal perspective, but I argue that there are many who shared the path I chose to walk, and I believe that anything that removes the ability of these people to contribute to society and to our industry, is unfair, dangerous and against the interests of the industry as a whole.
I know that I am PROUD to work in this industry, it is with pride that I stand among my colleagues, both Kenyan and otherwise, both certified and non-certified, and I just want the opportunity to continue the work I have dedicated the last 21 years of my life to and continue to build this industry and be able to contribute.
Just my thoughts
Andrew
From: kictanet [mailto:kictanet-bounces+andrew.alston= liquidtelecom.com@lists.kictanet.or.ke] On Behalf Of Dorcas Muthoni via kictanet Sent: 02 December 2016 11:53 To: Andrew Alston <Andrew.Alston@liquidtelecom.com> Cc: Dorcas Muthoni <dmuthoni@gmail.com> Subject: Re: [kictanet] ICT Authority to weed out quacks
Unfortunately, judging from my experience, both in public and private sector, HR and top IT management do indeed either get it wrong, lack ability or sometimes objectivity while onboarding vendors or staff.
In which case, industry professionals can help in defining a criteria for all. This of course should also be shared with tertiary institutions and universities.
As we know, new professions are being defined daily. Some core fundamentals remain the same.
On Dec 2, 2016 11:27 AM, "Francis Nderitu via kictanet" < kictanet@lists.kictanet.or.ke<mailto:kictanet@lists.kictanet.or.ke>> wrote: In my own view this kind of vetting they are asking for should be institutional but not individual - which is already happening naturally. Does Company A have the capacity to offer service XYZ? That kind of approach could be helpful, just like in the construction industry, diffrent companies have diffrent clearance level.
On Fri, Dec 2, 2016 at 11:03 AM, Nelson J kwaje via kictanet < kictanet@lists.kictanet.or.ke<mailto:kictanet@lists.kictanet.or.ke>> wrote:
@James,
I like how people are open minded about ICT professional. it is okay to be a drop out, it is okay to not have any qualifications, just have passion and be good at what you do.
Doctors and Pilots used to be treated the same way. few regulations, few standards and no regularity body until we realized that our lives depends on these people and their mistakes can be catastrophic.
The ICT Industry is heading in the same direction. our errors are starting to cause some serious damages and the society is right when it demands some yardstick to know who is who.
Will you fly with an uncertified pilot ?
Can you go to the operating theater with a passionate and committed doctor but no certificate ?
Why will you accept anyone to mange the system for your bank, hospital, airport and even national security.
Cheers
Nelson
On 02/12/2016 10:42 WD, James Muendo wrote: Nelson,
"we can not sit and and watch as the industry gets diluted in the name of innovation and disruption."
I think what you have quoted there is what drives the profession and the industry at large. What you are suggesting is we curb creativity of people who seek to curb a niche out of the huge industry. As Ahmed said, this is not like professions, like, being a doctor or a lawyer that have a pre-set set of standards. If anything, the industry thrives on its dynamic nature, which leads to disruption and innovation.
On that I beg to disagree with you. Also, in terms of standards, if we look outside .KE, what other country/town has ICT standards?
Am with Ngigi in this one, we need to separate business from profession. The tricky bit, would be, what criteria will you use to do so.
Regards,
On 2 December 2016 at 10:28, Nelson J kwaje via kictanet < kictanet@lists.kictanet.or.ke<mailto:kictanet@lists.kictanet.or.ke>> wrote:
Let us face it, the ICT Industry has a problem with standards, ambiguity rules the ICT Industry in Kenya. the words below can have as many meanings as the are ICT professionals
* Cloud Solution * Software Architect * Software Developer * IoT * Web APP * and many other
we can not sit and and watch as the industry gets diluted in the name of innovation and disruption.
On 02/12/2016 10:12 WD, Dorcas Muthoni via kictanet wrote:
My point is, chaos are eminent in the industry. Is it what we want.. NO.
Then, let's agree on the criteria. ICT Authority is part of the KICTANET community, let's engage them, instead of shooting in your defense. Let's get a constructive multi-stakeholder engagement.
I am afraid that having a few highly opinionated people rule mailing lists stalls multi-stakeholder participation.
I hope that the ICT Authority is listening somewhere.
On Dec 2, 2016 10:00 AM, "Ahmed Mohamed Maawy via kictanet" < kictanet@lists.kictanet.or.ke<mailto:kictanet@lists.kictanet.or.ke>> wrote: Its not really about why people feel insecure. Its about what policy is meant to do. Why? Technologists are not doctors or lawyers. With all due respect. What does the education system offer as a yardstick for competence? Most of us got jobs before we even graduated school. And we went on to work for projects and institutions that went on to win Awards in the international arena.
You see, IT is not about being a Doctor or being a Lawyer (where theory is a factor). IT is an operational field. IT, more than any other field - is based on Talent. Not much on Knowledge. This is why we have so many people out of Uni looking for Internships that they can not find. In a market where the dynamics are governed by people who did not even do that degree - to drive technical jobs.
And yes, we have several CEOs in several companies who (and some of them entrepreneur their own way through) did not even do a BCom at the least. Some of them did not even see an higher learning institution. We need to understand that the market dynamics are shifting. Schools in developing are evolving. Why? Because Technology has changed the education field. The education field is not changing technology. Apologies if we believe so. Just my two cents.
On Fri, Dec 2, 2016 at 9:39 AM, Collins Areba via kictanet < kictanet@lists.kictanet.or.ke<mailto:kictanet@lists.kictanet.or.ke>> wrote: @Dorcas. Before we even get to answering why many people are insecure about the discussion, I would point to the more obvious question. What are the protagonists trying to do? what are they trying to solve? Unfortunately thus far, It is not clear. What is in need of regulation? and why does it need to be regulated? is this regulation for regulation's sake?
I did mention yesterday that from my point of view, Regulation makes sense only where there is a limited resource, shared by many, which left without regulation would result in disorder and "law of the jungle". Which ICT component is this that needs to be streamlined to prevent it from spiralling out of control?
From where I sit, It feels like a bunch of individuals feel shortchanged about the time, effort and money they spent in learning "the science" only to come out here and find the arena flattened by the same technology. It feels like "the bill" which seeks to assign non existent value to those that feel some level of entitlement to that "ict professional" title purely on the basis of having done ICT formally.
I stand corrected.
On Fri, Dec 2, 2016 at 9:02 AM, Dorcas Muthoni via kictanet < kictanet@lists.kictanet.or.ke<mailto:kictanet@lists.kictanet.or.ke>> wrote:
Why are so many people insecure about this topic.
Can a bank CEO act as the principal legal officer of a bank? Why not?
Which Innovators are these people are referring to? As far as I know, most of the referenced global innovators dropped out of some computer science programs and employ thousands of highly qualified CS and engineering graduates.
I don't think starting a box-pushing or software license reselling entity coupled with hiring a few technicians can turn anyone into a domain professional. Let's get this straight and boldly address the true issues at hand.
Obviously, this loose arrangement is leading to the proliferation of extreme tender-prenuership.
Can anyone point me to potential local Bill Gates, Larry Page or Mark Mark Zuckerberg. We can't use such example to complicate this discussion.
If anything, we should be providing a friendly environment those with money and great experience invest in highly scalable startups.
Nothing bars anyone who falls short of an agreed criteria from working on it.
Obviously, we cannot water down such an important topic.
On Dec 1, 2016 10:28 PM, "Alfred Kinyua via kictanet" < kictanet@lists.kictanet.or.ke<mailto:kictanet@lists.kictanet.or.ke>> wrote:
Two things stand out, concerning ICT Authority. 1. Conformance of set standards (raising the bar). 2. locking out unqualified personnel, where government has interests . This is not a trivial issue, because one might be qualified but incompetent (theorists) / unsitable, while the opposite might be true, unqualufied but competent/suitable, this is true for ICT realtad mattets. Personally I thing further probing is required.
On Dec 1, 2016 22:01, "Beryl Aidi via kictanet" < kictanet@lists.kictanet.or.ke<mailto:kictanet@lists.kictanet.or.ke>> wrote: Hi All, Law and policy seldom exist in a vacuum. Does anyone know anywhere in the world where the kind of regulation or ICT standards being anticipated to be used to weed out quacks have been used successfully? Successfully here being key, which means no victimization of those without any certifications that may exist; startups; or those just playing around and happen to stumble on something that may end up taking the world by storm; and by no means a way to stifle internet freedoms. Anyone knows where such a model exists? My two cents.
Beryl Aidi
On Thu, Dec 1, 2016 at 9:41 PM, Waithaka Ngigi via kictanet < kictanet@lists.kictanet.or.ke<mailto:kictanet@lists.kictanet.or.ke>> wrote: In summary... ICT is "...A coalition of The Willing..."
Waithaka Ngigi
Alliance Technologies www.at.co.ke<http://www.at.co.ke> From: Collins Areba via kictanet Sent: Thursday, December 1, 2016 9:30 PM To: Ngigi Waithaka Reply To: KICTAnet ICT Policy Discussions Cc: Collins Areba; KICTAnet ICT Policy Discussions Subject: Re: [kictanet] ICT Authority to weed out quacks
Exactly! ICT is a disruptive sector. It is unfortunate when we attempt to define it as one would engineering, or architecture, or survey. The action - reaction - feedback - correction continum time wise is soo tiny. A decision for instance in some of these association, say which colour to paint a wall might take four months.
I would still ask, what is the problem we are trying to solve? If this can be defined we should be in a position to find solutions collectively.
On 1 Dec 2016 21:12, "Mwendwa Kivuva" <Kivuva@transworldafrica.com<m ailto:Kivuva@transworldafrica.com>> wrote:
The said procurement quacks are like Josephine Kabura. But they are not really quacks because they work as conduits for their masters in high places.
If it was possible to weed out "quacks" from the industry, the said masters would still use the "professionals" to commit heinous crimes.
Show me major scandals in Kenya conducted by quacks and I will show you a liar. Goldenberg, Anglo-leasing, euro bond...
On Dec 1, 2016 7:36 PM, "Collins Areba via kictanet" < kictanet@lists.kictanet.or.ke<mailto:kictanet@lists.kictanet.or.ke>> wrote:
I believe regulation should only be present where there is a limited, shared resource that might be subject to abuse. Short of having a set of rules: don't test an EMP in a built up area, don't access government servers even if their passwords are admin, admin. Don't give the president's number on twitter, etc etc etc. That is progressive legislation.
On 1 Dec 2016 18:24, "Collins Areba" <arebacollins@gmail.com<mailto: arebacollins@gmail.com>> wrote:
Dorcas: show me the chaos. Then we discuss order.
On 1 Dec 2016 18:17, "James Muendo" <james@muendo.co.ke<mailto:jam es@muendo.co.ke>> wrote: Collins,
+1
-- James Muendo
Chief Executive Officer (CEO),
Logic Craft Ltd,
Suite 39, 2nd Floor, Visions Plaza, Mombasa Road
P.O Box 28016 ? 00200,
Nairobi,KE
M:| +254.725.567.508 S: | tim.rick Gtalk:| james.muendo T: | @MmuendoW:| http://about.me/muendo
Too Brief? Here's Why
On Thu, Dec 1, 2016 at 6:15 PM +0300, "Collins Areba via kictanet" < kictanet@lists.kictanet.or.ke<mailto:kictanet@lists.kictanet.or.ke>> wrote:
Personally I seek examples of the damage done by the said quacks that professional institutions haven't done. The distinct point of departure which will show the distinct difference so as to justify regulation.
On 1 Dec 2016 17:32, "waudo siganga via kictanet" < kictanet@lists.kictanet.or.ke<mailto:kictanet@lists.kictanet.or.ke>> wrote: Kivuva, you forgot Zuckerberg.
On Thu, Dec 1, 2016, at 11:47 AM, Mwendwa Kivuva via kictanet wrote: College drop outs who rule the world.
Michael Saul Dell, William Henry ?Bill? Gates iii, Paul Gardner Allen, Lawrence Joseph Ellison, Stephen ?Woz? Wozniak, Steven Paul Jobs, Robert Edward ?Ted? Turner iii http://lord.me.ke/college-dropouts-who-rule-the-world/
I wonder who among those would be considered an ICT pro in Kenya.
______________________ Mwendwa Kivuva, Nairobi, Kenya twitter.com/lordmwesh<http://twitter.com/lordmwesh>
On 1 December 2016 at 12:03, Ali Hussein via kictanet < kictanet@lists.kictanet.or.ke<mailto:kictanet@lists.kictanet.or.ke>> wrote: The real important question has not been answered. Not since the term ICT started being used.
WHO IS AN ICT PRACTITIONER?
And who is this WATCHDOG who will abrogate himself/herself the role of GateKeeper and RentSeeker?
Ali Hussein Principal Hussein & Associates +254 0713 601113 <+254%20713%20601113> <+254%20713%20601113><tel:+ 254%20713%20601113>
Twitter: @AliHKassim
Skype: abu-jomo
LinkedIn: http://ke.linkedin.com/in/alihkassim
"Discovery consists in seeing what everyone else has seen and thinking what no one else has thought". ~ Albert Szent-Gy?rgyi
Sent from my iPad
On 1 Dec 2016, at 10:51 AM, Athar Ahmad Bhatti via kictanet < kictanet@lists.kictanet.or.ke<mailto:kictanet@lists.kictanet.or.ke>> wrote:
Brian they will implant a chip in your brain and track your IQ to see whether you are fit for IT. Whereas the millennial generation will lose most as they are hands on.
Athar Ahmad Bhatti +254726488311 <+254%20726%20488311> <+254%20726%20488311><tel:+ 254%20726%20488311>
On Thu, Dec 1, 2016 at 10:43 AM +0300, "Brian Muhia via kictanet" < kictanet@lists.kictanet.or.ke<mailto:kictanet@lists.kictanet.or.ke>> wrote:
This is only to be applied to people trying to do contract jobs for the government, right?
On Thu, Dec 1, 2016 at 10:27 AM WANGARI KABIRU via kictanet < kictanet@lists.kictanet.or.ke<mailto:kictanet@lists.kictanet.or.ke>> wrote: Blessed Thursday!
Might the sector be getting its shape?
Private schooling started as an innovative approach to education - now we even have more innovative home schooling and best practice approaches. Healthcare etc
Who has helped to weed out quacks proactively in most instances - it is the industry associations working with the governments. An angle to borrow from.
"....He said the authority will in the next couple of weeks launch ICT standards where every professional in the field seeking to serve public service must comply. ?One of the things which we are doing very soon in the next couple of weeks, is that we shall be launching ICT standard, these are ICT national standards and we plan on having them effective from first of January and based on that vendors will have to comply with the standards,? said the CEO, adding that those who will not comply to the standards will be blacklisted..."
How might the players engage in the discourse to give it shape while keep its jelly-nature?
Be blessed.
Regards/Wangari
--- Pray God Bless. 2013Wangari circa - "Being of the Light, We are Restored Through Faith in Mind, Body and Spirit; We Manifest The Kingdom of God on Earth".
On Thursday, 1 December 2016, 8:43, Ahmed Mohamed Maawy via kictanet < kictanet@lists.kictanet.or.ke<mailto:kictanet@lists.kictanet.or.ke>> wrote:
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It's still not comforting because government wants to define an ICT practitioner in a certain way. Ostensibly to lock out competition using some criteria or another. Indeed can be argued as a telling sign of impending "government by cartel". On 2 Dec 2016 16:56, "Ahmed Mohamed Maawy via kictanet" < kictanet@lists.kictanet.or.ke> wrote:
Thank you Paul,
But free speech is free speech. There is no paranoia here. Only freedom of expression.
On 2 Dec 2016 4:50 p.m., "Paul Korir via kictanet" < kictanet@lists.kictanet.or.ke> wrote:
Fellow Listers, (Please read through until the end before reacting.)
It is unfortunate that this issue has arisen before the dust from the ICT Practioners Bill has settled. There are a lot of pent up emotions (and rightly so) associated with confronting policy corruption. This has not only affected ICT but other fields (I seem to be the only one angered by some of the sections of the Science, Technology and Innovation Act).
It is also unfortunate that that the subject of this thread is misleading or incomplete at best and that the journalist who penned this piece did not take the time to dissect the issues. For example, there is no explicit statement that this applies only to government expenditure and the reference at the end is vague (“…that the government has an interest in.”)
Nevertheless, government agencies have a duty to protect the public’s interests in delivering service to the people. In this case, the issue is the use of public funds (not private capital) in procuring government contracts and the ICTA is proposing regulation to this end. Please remember that the mandate of ICTA is to serve the government and not the private sector.
“The Authority is tasked with rationalising and streamlining the management of all Government of Kenya ICT functions.” (from http://www.icta.go.ke/ict-authority/).
To the best of my understanding (and the functions of the ICTA) the statement by the CEO have no bearing on private procurement and application of ICT to private business. This is not a move to regulate the ICT sector but to secure the procurement of ICT services in government functions. In other words, quacks are those who are stealing public funds by masquerading as ICT professionals. Now, who would be opposed to that?
I think paranoia is beginning to get the better of us…
Dr. Paul Korir, PhD +44 7780 283 183 <+44%207780%20283183> *Ordnung muß sein*
On 2 Dec 2016, at 16:11, kictanet-request@lists.kictanet.or.ke wrote:
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Today's Topics:
1. Re: ICT Authority to weed out quacks (Ahmed Mohamed Maawy)
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Message: 1 Date: Fri, 2 Dec 2016 16:09:25 +0300 From: Ahmed Mohamed Maawy <ultimateprogramer@gmail.com> To: KICTAnet ICT Policy Discussions <kictanet@lists.kictanet.or.ke> Cc: Collins Areba <arebacollins@gmail.com>, JImmy Gitonga <jimmygitts@gmail.com> Subject: Re: [kictanet] ICT Authority to weed out quacks Message-ID: <CAPZHszM0wX=0mx3asX1sP8vq3Dp0sify4yFNCxr0kK_FuqDBFQ@mail.gmail.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8"
Fellows,
We will be the 1st market in the history of the world to kill innovation by regulating it.
According to Wikipedia *Innovation* is defined simply as a "*new idea, device, or method*". However, innovation is often also viewed as the *application of better solutions that meet new requirements, unarticulated needs*, or existing market needs. This is accomplished through more-effective products, processes, services, technologies, or business models that are readily available to markets, governments and society. The term "innovation" can be defined as something original and more effective and, as a consequence, new, that "breaks into" the market or society. It is related to, but not the same as, invention.
If Innovation is related to invention. Who in the world ever invented anything under a very strict regulatory framework ?? Isn't it that we constantly talk about people who invented new things to break the norm? (including status quo in a society hell bent to set norms and standards to tell people like Thomas Edisson that he can't do a lightbulb and the Wright Brothers that they can't fly?)
Again, And what school ever taught an inventor to invent anything?
The kid in Maasai Mara who invented a technology to scare away lions (and got TV airtime just because someone discovered him with a mindset outside the education system) - did he ever go to school?
Can we go on giving countless statements on this?
On Fri, Dec 2, 2016 at 3:30 PM, Collins Areba via kictanet < kictanet@lists.kictanet.or.ke> wrote:
Thank you Andrew: a true geriatric in this world. (I did my fair share of fortran 77 btw)
I think the problem is clear: irregular tendering, leading in quacks being awarded tenders for one reason or another at the expense of legitimately qualified suppliers. Now, if you ask me, Thats the domain of Public Procurements Oversight Authority.
Maybe the said parties should seek representation in the said authority, or maybe we should seek a common "ICT practitioners" position or checklist for the PPPOA to consider when setting rules.
My 2 cents.
On Fri, Dec 2, 2016 at 3:06 PM, Kevin Kamonye via kictanet < kictanet@lists.kictanet.or.ke> wrote:
My ideal scenario as regards to post secondary school;
1. Enroll for a program like NYS/ Police/ Military for at least 1 year to learn essential life skills. 2. Continue serving or get into the job market for at least 2 years doing some paid internship/apprenticeship (savings scheme for school fees ) 3. Go for Undergraduate studies - Dip/Bachelor (part-time/ distance learning for non-eng. courses) 4. Back to work - start of specialisation for at least 5 years 5. Masters etc. but after a very thorough interviewing/ career review process before being enrolled to any program
These certifications are in some ways hurting the industry. But I guess they are a necessary evil as the job market is flooded with people who can get the job done.
Perhaps we should have a common framework that acts as a lifetime Continuous Assesment Test (CAT) for every sector of the industry that is publicly and commonly administered by selected panels for every region. Like a LinkedIN where endorsements for skills actually mean something.
As for me, the industry I have been trying to break into to start my specialisation (Cyber Security OPs) seems to have a thing for seeing the entire alphabet on your CV :) This quack has thrown in the towel and am back at school (actually started my end of semester exams today).
Kevin
On 2 December 2016 at 14:35, JImmy Gitonga via kictanet < kictanet@lists.kictanet.or.ke> wrote:
Wow Andrew,
It seems that is everyone's journey here until "recently" when Computer Science became a course in our universities. I am a "quack" as much as you are.
I loved the story and all the best.
So, Listers, this is my take. The problem is that the government has allowed tenderpreneurs to flourish in every sector, and the experts in the government, who ought to supervise, are compromised for various reasons.
We are just feeling the heat now because we are in the way of the rent seekers. Look at our mechanical engineering sector and see the chaos caused by "regulation".
Regards
Jimmy Gitonga *Web and Motion*
On Fri, Dec 2, 2016 at 2:12 PM, <kictanet-request@lists.kictanet.or.ke> wrote:
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1. Re: ICT Authority to weed out quacks (Andrew Alston)
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Message: 1 Date: Fri, 2 Dec 2016 11:10:41 +0000 From: Andrew Alston <Andrew.Alston@liquidtelecom.com> To: KICTAnet ICT Policy Discussions <kictanet@lists.kictanet.or.ke> Subject: Re: [kictanet] ICT Authority to weed out quacks Message-ID: <AMSPR03MB534A8D637B9580FA82CDF1AEE8E0@AMSPR03MB534.eurprd03 .prod.outlook.com>
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Hi All,
I wade into this debate with a great degree of caution, but at the same time I feel it would be amiss not to tell my own story ? and let you judge my stance from that.
When I was 12 years old, living in South Africa, I walked door to door at every computer shop in the town I lived in, begging for a chance to help out in the stores ? I didn?t want money ? I wanted to be near the machines. There was a guy, interestingly he shared my first name, and decided he?d give me a chance, and so at 12 years old I started showing up on Saturdays and installing dos on machines and installing windows 3.1 and hanging around their workshop. By the time I was 13, I was putting together machines for them. They were even kind enough to give me the equivalent of 140 KSH for a Saturday morning.
Somewhere along the way, I got hold of a copy of turbo pascal and begged pleaded and borrowed some manuals and taught myself how to program, first in pascal, and then in assembler. By the time I was 16, I was then faced with a choice. I could stick with high school, finish, leave at the same time as everyone else, go to universities, spend years getting a degree, and then enter the job market at the same time as all my school friends. Or, due to the age of the industry and how new it was where I was growing up, I could leave school, get a job, and get a 2 and a half year experience head start on everyone I was at school with. I made my choice, and in around March, 3 months into grade 10, I clearly remember getting up in the middle of science class, and walking out. I never went back.
By the time I left though, I had already organized myself a job, relying on the experience I had working in computer stores for the previous 3 and a half odd years, and relying on the fact that I could already program. So, I got on a bus, at age 16, travelled a thousand kilometres down to Cape Town and started my working life. Over the next few years, I worked my ass off, earned just enough money to keep me afloat, and eventually started my own IT security company, got defrauded, went broke as a result, got up, and started again. Eventually ending up working for the University of Cape Town in their IT department. While there I started moonlighting for TENET (the South African academic network), and eventually ended up as their CTO where I was for 6 years. After leaving there and doing a whole bunch of contracting (primarily for various universities), I took a contract with Liquid which eventually ended up becoming permanent and I ended up where I am today, in a senior position building networks across the continent.
The point of this story is ? there are individuals out there who have chosen a different route ? I am not alone in the path I took, and I am not special, I was not born to wealth and honestly I don?t think I could have afforded to go to University anyway ? my parents certainly didn?t have the money to pay for it, nor was I born with insane brain power, I merely chose to find my own path and work hard to reach the heights I have. And in all of this ? I fail to see why any system should penalize people such as myself, and indirectly penalize the people who I could share my knowledge and experience with. I fail to see why a qualification actually matters if someone can *prove* they can do the job ? and do it well, with an equal amount of passion, drive and skill, however it was acquired.
Obviously, this post is written from an intensely personal perspective, but I argue that there are many who shared the path I chose to walk, and I believe that anything that removes the ability of these people to contribute to society and to our industry, is unfair, dangerous and against the interests of the industry as a whole.
I know that I am PROUD to work in this industry, it is with pride that I stand among my colleagues, both Kenyan and otherwise, both certified and non-certified, and I just want the opportunity to continue the work I have dedicated the last 21 years of my life to and continue to build this industry and be able to contribute.
Just my thoughts
Andrew
From: kictanet [mailto:kictanet-bounces+andrew.alston= liquidtelecom.com@lists.kictanet.or.ke] On Behalf Of Dorcas Muthoni via kictanet Sent: 02 December 2016 11:53 To: Andrew Alston <Andrew.Alston@liquidtelecom.com> Cc: Dorcas Muthoni <dmuthoni@gmail.com> Subject: Re: [kictanet] ICT Authority to weed out quacks
Unfortunately, judging from my experience, both in public and private sector, HR and top IT management do indeed either get it wrong, lack ability or sometimes objectivity while onboarding vendors or staff.
In which case, industry professionals can help in defining a criteria for all. This of course should also be shared with tertiary institutions and universities.
As we know, new professions are being defined daily. Some core fundamentals remain the same.
On Dec 2, 2016 11:27 AM, "Francis Nderitu via kictanet" < kictanet@lists.kictanet.or.ke<mailto:kictanet@lists.kictanet.or.ke>> wrote: In my own view this kind of vetting they are asking for should be institutional but not individual - which is already happening naturally. Does Company A have the capacity to offer service XYZ? That kind of approach could be helpful, just like in the construction industry, diffrent companies have diffrent clearance level.
On Fri, Dec 2, 2016 at 11:03 AM, Nelson J kwaje via kictanet < kictanet@lists.kictanet.or.ke<mailto:kictanet@lists.kictanet.or.ke>> wrote:
@James,
I like how people are open minded about ICT professional. it is okay to be a drop out, it is okay to not have any qualifications, just have passion and be good at what you do.
Doctors and Pilots used to be treated the same way. few regulations, few standards and no regularity body until we realized that our lives depends on these people and their mistakes can be catastrophic.
The ICT Industry is heading in the same direction. our errors are starting to cause some serious damages and the society is right when it demands some yardstick to know who is who.
Will you fly with an uncertified pilot ?
Can you go to the operating theater with a passionate and committed doctor but no certificate ?
Why will you accept anyone to mange the system for your bank, hospital, airport and even national security.
Cheers
Nelson
On 02/12/2016 10:42 WD, James Muendo wrote: Nelson,
"we can not sit and and watch as the industry gets diluted in the name of innovation and disruption."
I think what you have quoted there is what drives the profession and the industry at large. What you are suggesting is we curb creativity of people who seek to curb a niche out of the huge industry. As Ahmed said, this is not like professions, like, being a doctor or a lawyer that have a pre-set set of standards. If anything, the industry thrives on its dynamic nature, which leads to disruption and innovation.
On that I beg to disagree with you. Also, in terms of standards, if we look outside .KE, what other country/town has ICT standards?
Am with Ngigi in this one, we need to separate business from profession. The tricky bit, would be, what criteria will you use to do so.
Regards,
On 2 December 2016 at 10:28, Nelson J kwaje via kictanet < kictanet@lists.kictanet.or.ke<mailto:kictanet@lists.kictanet.or.ke>> wrote:
Let us face it, the ICT Industry has a problem with standards, ambiguity rules the ICT Industry in Kenya. the words below can have as many meanings as the are ICT professionals
* Cloud Solution * Software Architect * Software Developer * IoT * Web APP * and many other
we can not sit and and watch as the industry gets diluted in the name of innovation and disruption.
On 02/12/2016 10:12 WD, Dorcas Muthoni via kictanet wrote:
My point is, chaos are eminent in the industry. Is it what we want.. NO.
Then, let's agree on the criteria. ICT Authority is part of the KICTANET community, let's engage them, instead of shooting in your defense. Let's get a constructive multi-stakeholder engagement.
I am afraid that having a few highly opinionated people rule mailing lists stalls multi-stakeholder participation.
I hope that the ICT Authority is listening somewhere.
On Dec 2, 2016 10:00 AM, "Ahmed Mohamed Maawy via kictanet" < kictanet@lists.kictanet.or.ke<mailto:kictanet@lists.kictanet.or.ke>> wrote: Its not really about why people feel insecure. Its about what policy is meant to do. Why? Technologists are not doctors or lawyers. With all due respect. What does the education system offer as a yardstick for competence? Most of us got jobs before we even graduated school. And we went on to work for projects and institutions that went on to win Awards in the international arena.
You see, IT is not about being a Doctor or being a Lawyer (where theory is a factor). IT is an operational field. IT, more than any other field - is based on Talent. Not much on Knowledge. This is why we have so many people out of Uni looking for Internships that they can not find. In a market where the dynamics are governed by people who did not even do that degree - to drive technical jobs.
And yes, we have several CEOs in several companies who (and some of them entrepreneur their own way through) did not even do a BCom at the least. Some of them did not even see an higher learning institution. We need to understand that the market dynamics are shifting. Schools in developing are evolving. Why? Because Technology has changed the education field. The education field is not changing technology. Apologies if we believe so. Just my two cents.
On Fri, Dec 2, 2016 at 9:39 AM, Collins Areba via kictanet < kictanet@lists.kictanet.or.ke<mailto:kictanet@lists.kictanet.or.ke>> wrote: @Dorcas. Before we even get to answering why many people are insecure about the discussion, I would point to the more obvious question. What are the protagonists trying to do? what are they trying to solve? Unfortunately thus far, It is not clear. What is in need of regulation? and why does it need to be regulated? is this regulation for regulation's sake?
I did mention yesterday that from my point of view, Regulation makes sense only where there is a limited resource, shared by many, which left without regulation would result in disorder and "law of the jungle". Which ICT component is this that needs to be streamlined to prevent it from spiralling out of control?
From where I sit, It feels like a bunch of individuals feel shortchanged about the time, effort and money they spent in learning "the science" only to come out here and find the arena flattened by the same technology. It feels like "the bill" which seeks to assign non existent value to those that feel some level of entitlement to that "ict professional" title purely on the basis of having done ICT formally.
I stand corrected.
On Fri, Dec 2, 2016 at 9:02 AM, Dorcas Muthoni via kictanet < kictanet@lists.kictanet.or.ke<mailto:kictanet@lists.kictanet.or.ke>> wrote:
Why are so many people insecure about this topic.
Can a bank CEO act as the principal legal officer of a bank? Why not?
Which Innovators are these people are referring to? As far as I know, most of the referenced global innovators dropped out of some computer science programs and employ thousands of highly qualified CS and engineering graduates.
I don't think starting a box-pushing or software license reselling entity coupled with hiring a few technicians can turn anyone into a domain professional. Let's get this straight and boldly address the true issues at hand.
Obviously, this loose arrangement is leading to the proliferation of extreme tender-prenuership.
Can anyone point me to potential local Bill Gates, Larry Page or Mark Mark Zuckerberg. We can't use such example to complicate this discussion.
If anything, we should be providing a friendly environment those with money and great experience invest in highly scalable startups.
Nothing bars anyone who falls short of an agreed criteria from working on it.
Obviously, we cannot water down such an important topic.
On Dec 1, 2016 10:28 PM, "Alfred Kinyua via kictanet" < kictanet@lists.kictanet.or.ke<mailto:kictanet@lists.kictanet.or.ke>> wrote:
Two things stand out, concerning ICT Authority. 1. Conformance of set standards (raising the bar). 2. locking out unqualified personnel, where government has interests . This is not a trivial issue, because one might be qualified but incompetent (theorists) / unsitable, while the opposite might be true, unqualufied but competent/suitable, this is true for ICT realtad mattets. Personally I thing further probing is required.
On Dec 1, 2016 22:01, "Beryl Aidi via kictanet" < kictanet@lists.kictanet.or.ke<mailto:kictanet@lists.kictanet.or.ke>> wrote: Hi All, Law and policy seldom exist in a vacuum. Does anyone know anywhere in the world where the kind of regulation or ICT standards being anticipated to be used to weed out quacks have been used successfully? Successfully here being key, which means no victimization of those without any certifications that may exist; startups; or those just playing around and happen to stumble on something that may end up taking the world by storm; and by no means a way to stifle internet freedoms. Anyone knows where such a model exists? My two cents.
Beryl Aidi
On Thu, Dec 1, 2016 at 9:41 PM, Waithaka Ngigi via kictanet < kictanet@lists.kictanet.or.ke<mailto:kictanet@lists.kictanet.or.ke>> wrote: In summary... ICT is "...A coalition of The Willing..."
Waithaka Ngigi
Alliance Technologies www.at.co.ke<http://www.at.co.ke> From: Collins Areba via kictanet Sent: Thursday, December 1, 2016 9:30 PM To: Ngigi Waithaka Reply To: KICTAnet ICT Policy Discussions Cc: Collins Areba; KICTAnet ICT Policy Discussions Subject: Re: [kictanet] ICT Authority to weed out quacks
Exactly! ICT is a disruptive sector. It is unfortunate when we attempt to define it as one would engineering, or architecture, or survey. The action - reaction - feedback - correction continum time wise is soo tiny. A decision for instance in some of these association, say which colour to paint a wall might take four months.
I would still ask, what is the problem we are trying to solve? If this can be defined we should be in a position to find solutions collectively.
On 1 Dec 2016 21:12, "Mwendwa Kivuva" <Kivuva@transworldafrica.com<m ailto:Kivuva@transworldafrica.com>> wrote:
The said procurement quacks are like Josephine Kabura. But they are not really quacks because they work as conduits for their masters in high places.
If it was possible to weed out "quacks" from the industry, the said masters would still use the "professionals" to commit heinous crimes.
Show me major scandals in Kenya conducted by quacks and I will show you a liar. Goldenberg, Anglo-leasing, euro bond...
On Dec 1, 2016 7:36 PM, "Collins Areba via kictanet" < kictanet@lists.kictanet.or.ke<mailto:kictanet@lists.kictanet.or.ke>> wrote:
I believe regulation should only be present where there is a limited, shared resource that might be subject to abuse. Short of having a set of rules: don't test an EMP in a built up area, don't access government servers even if their passwords are admin, admin. Don't give the president's number on twitter, etc etc etc. That is progressive legislation.
On 1 Dec 2016 18:24, "Collins Areba" <arebacollins@gmail.com<mailto: arebacollins@gmail.com>> wrote:
Dorcas: show me the chaos. Then we discuss order.
On 1 Dec 2016 18:17, "James Muendo" <james@muendo.co.ke<mailto:jam es@muendo.co.ke>> wrote: Collins,
+1
-- James Muendo
Chief Executive Officer (CEO),
Logic Craft Ltd,
Suite 39, 2nd Floor, Visions Plaza, Mombasa Road
P.O Box 28016 ? 00200,
Nairobi,KE
M:| +254.725.567.508 S: | tim.rick Gtalk:| james.muendo T: | @MmuendoW:| http://about.me/muendo
Too Brief? Here's Why
On Thu, Dec 1, 2016 at 6:15 PM +0300, "Collins Areba via kictanet" < kictanet@lists.kictanet.or.ke<mailto:kictanet@lists.kictanet.or.ke>> wrote:
Personally I seek examples of the damage done by the said quacks that professional institutions haven't done. The distinct point of departure which will show the distinct difference so as to justify regulation.
On 1 Dec 2016 17:32, "waudo siganga via kictanet" < kictanet@lists.kictanet.or.ke<mailto:kictanet@lists.kictanet.or.ke>> wrote: Kivuva, you forgot Zuckerberg.
On Thu, Dec 1, 2016, at 11:47 AM, Mwendwa Kivuva via kictanet wrote: College drop outs who rule the world.
Michael Saul Dell, William Henry ?Bill? Gates iii, Paul Gardner Allen, Lawrence Joseph Ellison, Stephen ?Woz? Wozniak, Steven Paul Jobs, Robert Edward ?Ted? Turner iii http://lord.me.ke/college-dropouts-who-rule-the-world/
I wonder who among those would be considered an ICT pro in Kenya.
______________________ Mwendwa Kivuva, Nairobi, Kenya twitter.com/lordmwesh<http://twitter.com/lordmwesh>
On 1 December 2016 at 12:03, Ali Hussein via kictanet < kictanet@lists.kictanet.or.ke<mailto:kictanet@lists.kictanet.or.ke>> wrote: The real important question has not been answered. Not since the term ICT started being used.
WHO IS AN ICT PRACTITIONER?
And who is this WATCHDOG who will abrogate himself/herself the role of GateKeeper and RentSeeker?
Ali Hussein Principal Hussein & Associates +254 0713 601113 <+254%20713%20601113> <+254%20713%20601113><tel:+254 %20713%20601113>
Twitter: @AliHKassim
Skype: abu-jomo
LinkedIn: http://ke.linkedin.com/in/alihkassim
"Discovery consists in seeing what everyone else has seen and thinking what no one else has thought". ~ Albert Szent-Gy?rgyi
Sent from my iPad
On 1 Dec 2016, at 10:51 AM, Athar Ahmad Bhatti via kictanet < kictanet@lists.kictanet.or.ke<mailto:kictanet@lists.kictanet.or.ke>> wrote:
Brian they will implant a chip in your brain and track your IQ to see whether you are fit for IT. Whereas the millennial generation will lose most as they are hands on.
Athar Ahmad Bhatti +254726488311 <+254%20726%20488311> <+254%20726%20488311><tel:+254 %20726%20488311>
On Thu, Dec 1, 2016 at 10:43 AM +0300, "Brian Muhia via kictanet" < kictanet@lists.kictanet.or.ke<mailto:kictanet@lists.kictanet.or.ke>> wrote:
This is only to be applied to people trying to do contract jobs for the government, right?
On Thu, Dec 1, 2016 at 10:27 AM WANGARI KABIRU via kictanet < kictanet@lists.kictanet.or.ke<mailto:kictanet@lists.kictanet.or.ke>> wrote: Blessed Thursday!
Might the sector be getting its shape?
Private schooling started as an innovative approach to education - now we even have more innovative home schooling and best practice approaches. Healthcare etc
Who has helped to weed out quacks proactively in most instances - it is the industry associations working with the governments. An angle to borrow from.
"....He said the authority will in the next couple of weeks launch ICT standards where every professional in the field seeking to serve public service must comply. ?One of the things which we are doing very soon in the next couple of weeks, is that we shall be launching ICT standard, these are ICT national standards and we plan on having them effective from first of January and based on that vendors will have to comply with the standards,? said the CEO, adding that those who will not comply to the standards will be blacklisted..."
How might the players engage in the discourse to give it shape while keep its jelly-nature?
Be blessed.
Regards/Wangari
--- Pray God Bless. 2013Wangari circa - "Being of the Light, We are Restored Through Faith in Mind, Body and Spirit; We Manifest The Kingdom of God on Earth".
On Thursday, 1 December 2016, 8:43, Ahmed Mohamed Maawy via kictanet < kictanet@lists.kictanet.or.ke<mailto:kictanet@lists.kictanet.or.ke>> wrote:
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Hi, How does government intend to regulate disruption and innovation? The good example issued of a young man with 'technology' to keep lions at bay or the 'new' sector of Fintech, which, is a fusion of both Financial markets and technology? Also, where do place people like Andrew, like many of us (including myself (although I'm in 'Ngumbaru')), operate from a position of passion and experience gained through interest and self-teaching, rather than the formal education side of things? Just wondering. Regards, On Fri, Dec 2, 2016 at 5:15 PM, Collins Areba via kictanet < kictanet@lists.kictanet.or.ke> wrote:
It's still not comforting because government wants to define an ICT practitioner in a certain way. Ostensibly to lock out competition using some criteria or another.
Indeed can be argued as a telling sign of impending "government by cartel".
On 2 Dec 2016 16:56, "Ahmed Mohamed Maawy via kictanet" < kictanet@lists.kictanet.or.ke> wrote:
Thank you Paul,
But free speech is free speech. There is no paranoia here. Only freedom of expression.
On 2 Dec 2016 4:50 p.m., "Paul Korir via kictanet" < kictanet@lists.kictanet.or.ke> wrote:
Fellow Listers, (Please read through until the end before reacting.)
It is unfortunate that this issue has arisen before the dust from the ICT Practioners Bill has settled. There are a lot of pent up emotions (and rightly so) associated with confronting policy corruption. This has not only affected ICT but other fields (I seem to be the only one angered by some of the sections of the Science, Technology and Innovation Act).
It is also unfortunate that that the subject of this thread is misleading or incomplete at best and that the journalist who penned this piece did not take the time to dissect the issues. For example, there is no explicit statement that this applies only to government expenditure and the reference at the end is vague (“…that the government has an interest in.”)
Nevertheless, government agencies have a duty to protect the public’s interests in delivering service to the people. In this case, the issue is the use of public funds (not private capital) in procuring government contracts and the ICTA is proposing regulation to this end. Please remember that the mandate of ICTA is to serve the government and not the private sector.
“The Authority is tasked with rationalising and streamlining the management of all Government of Kenya ICT functions.” (from http://www.icta.go.ke/ict-authority/).
To the best of my understanding (and the functions of the ICTA) the statement by the CEO have no bearing on private procurement and application of ICT to private business. This is not a move to regulate the ICT sector but to secure the procurement of ICT services in government functions. In other words, quacks are those who are stealing public funds by masquerading as ICT professionals. Now, who would be opposed to that?
I think paranoia is beginning to get the better of us…
Dr. Paul Korir, PhD +44 7780 283 183 <+44%207780%20283183> *Ordnung muß sein*
On 2 Dec 2016, at 16:11, kictanet-request@lists.kictanet.or.ke wrote:
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Today's Topics:
1. Re: ICT Authority to weed out quacks (Ahmed Mohamed Maawy)
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Message: 1 Date: Fri, 2 Dec 2016 16:09:25 +0300 From: Ahmed Mohamed Maawy <ultimateprogramer@gmail.com> To: KICTAnet ICT Policy Discussions <kictanet@lists.kictanet.or.ke> Cc: Collins Areba <arebacollins@gmail.com>, JImmy Gitonga <jimmygitts@gmail.com> Subject: Re: [kictanet] ICT Authority to weed out quacks Message-ID: <CAPZHszM0wX=0mx3asX1sP8vq3Dp0sify4yFNCxr0kK_FuqDBFQ@mail.gmail.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8"
Fellows,
We will be the 1st market in the history of the world to kill innovation by regulating it.
According to Wikipedia *Innovation* is defined simply as a "*new idea, device, or method*". However, innovation is often also viewed as the *application of better solutions that meet new requirements, unarticulated needs*, or existing market needs. This is accomplished through more-effective products, processes, services, technologies, or business models that are readily available to markets, governments and society. The term "innovation" can be defined as something original and more effective and, as a consequence, new, that "breaks into" the market or society. It is related to, but not the same as, invention.
If Innovation is related to invention. Who in the world ever invented anything under a very strict regulatory framework ?? Isn't it that we constantly talk about people who invented new things to break the norm? (including status quo in a society hell bent to set norms and standards to tell people like Thomas Edisson that he can't do a lightbulb and the Wright Brothers that they can't fly?)
Again, And what school ever taught an inventor to invent anything?
The kid in Maasai Mara who invented a technology to scare away lions (and got TV airtime just because someone discovered him with a mindset outside the education system) - did he ever go to school?
Can we go on giving countless statements on this?
On Fri, Dec 2, 2016 at 3:30 PM, Collins Areba via kictanet < kictanet@lists.kictanet.or.ke> wrote:
Thank you Andrew: a true geriatric in this world. (I did my fair share of fortran 77 btw)
I think the problem is clear: irregular tendering, leading in quacks being awarded tenders for one reason or another at the expense of legitimately qualified suppliers. Now, if you ask me, Thats the domain of Public Procurements Oversight Authority.
Maybe the said parties should seek representation in the said authority, or maybe we should seek a common "ICT practitioners" position or checklist for the PPPOA to consider when setting rules.
My 2 cents.
On Fri, Dec 2, 2016 at 3:06 PM, Kevin Kamonye via kictanet < kictanet@lists.kictanet.or.ke> wrote:
My ideal scenario as regards to post secondary school;
1. Enroll for a program like NYS/ Police/ Military for at least 1 year to learn essential life skills. 2. Continue serving or get into the job market for at least 2 years doing some paid internship/apprenticeship (savings scheme for school fees ) 3. Go for Undergraduate studies - Dip/Bachelor (part-time/ distance learning for non-eng. courses) 4. Back to work - start of specialisation for at least 5 years 5. Masters etc. but after a very thorough interviewing/ career review process before being enrolled to any program
These certifications are in some ways hurting the industry. But I guess they are a necessary evil as the job market is flooded with people who can get the job done.
Perhaps we should have a common framework that acts as a lifetime Continuous Assesment Test (CAT) for every sector of the industry that is publicly and commonly administered by selected panels for every region. Like a LinkedIN where endorsements for skills actually mean something.
As for me, the industry I have been trying to break into to start my specialisation (Cyber Security OPs) seems to have a thing for seeing the entire alphabet on your CV :) This quack has thrown in the towel and am back at school (actually started my end of semester exams today).
Kevin
On 2 December 2016 at 14:35, JImmy Gitonga via kictanet < kictanet@lists.kictanet.or.ke> wrote:
Wow Andrew,
It seems that is everyone's journey here until "recently" when Computer Science became a course in our universities. I am a "quack" as much as you are.
I loved the story and all the best.
So, Listers, this is my take. The problem is that the government has allowed tenderpreneurs to flourish in every sector, and the experts in the government, who ought to supervise, are compromised for various reasons.
We are just feeling the heat now because we are in the way of the rent seekers. Look at our mechanical engineering sector and see the chaos caused by "regulation".
Regards
Jimmy Gitonga *Web and Motion*
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Today's Topics:
1. Re: ICT Authority to weed out quacks (Andrew Alston)
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Message: 1 Date: Fri, 2 Dec 2016 11:10:41 +0000 From: Andrew Alston <Andrew.Alston@liquidtelecom.com> To: KICTAnet ICT Policy Discussions <kictanet@lists.kictanet.or.ke> Subject: Re: [kictanet] ICT Authority to weed out quacks Message-ID: <AMSPR03MB534A8D637B9580FA82CDF1AEE8E0@AMSPR03MB534.eurprd03 .prod.outlook.com>
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Hi All,
I wade into this debate with a great degree of caution, but at the same time I feel it would be amiss not to tell my own story ? and let you judge my stance from that.
When I was 12 years old, living in South Africa, I walked door to door at every computer shop in the town I lived in, begging for a chance to help out in the stores ? I didn?t want money ? I wanted to be near the machines. There was a guy, interestingly he shared my first name, and decided he?d give me a chance, and so at 12 years old I started showing up on Saturdays and installing dos on machines and installing windows 3.1 and hanging around their workshop. By the time I was 13, I was putting together machines for them. They were even kind enough to give me the equivalent of 140 KSH for a Saturday morning.
Somewhere along the way, I got hold of a copy of turbo pascal and begged pleaded and borrowed some manuals and taught myself how to program, first in pascal, and then in assembler. By the time I was 16, I was then faced with a choice. I could stick with high school, finish, leave at the same time as everyone else, go to universities, spend years getting a degree, and then enter the job market at the same time as all my school friends. Or, due to the age of the industry and how new it was where I was growing up, I could leave school, get a job, and get a 2 and a half year experience head start on everyone I was at school with. I made my choice, and in around March, 3 months into grade 10, I clearly remember getting up in the middle of science class, and walking out. I never went back.
By the time I left though, I had already organized myself a job, relying on the experience I had working in computer stores for the previous 3 and a half odd years, and relying on the fact that I could already program. So, I got on a bus, at age 16, travelled a thousand kilometres down to Cape Town and started my working life. Over the next few years, I worked my ass off, earned just enough money to keep me afloat, and eventually started my own IT security company, got defrauded, went broke as a result, got up, and started again. Eventually ending up working for the University of Cape Town in their IT department. While there I started moonlighting for TENET (the South African academic network), and eventually ended up as their CTO where I was for 6 years. After leaving there and doing a whole bunch of contracting (primarily for various universities), I took a contract with Liquid which eventually ended up becoming permanent and I ended up where I am today, in a senior position building networks across the continent.
The point of this story is ? there are individuals out there who have chosen a different route ? I am not alone in the path I took, and I am not special, I was not born to wealth and honestly I don?t think I could have afforded to go to University anyway ? my parents certainly didn?t have the money to pay for it, nor was I born with insane brain power, I merely chose to find my own path and work hard to reach the heights I have. And in all of this ? I fail to see why any system should penalize people such as myself, and indirectly penalize the people who I could share my knowledge and experience with. I fail to see why a qualification actually matters if someone can *prove* they can do the job ? and do it well, with an equal amount of passion, drive and skill, however it was acquired.
Obviously, this post is written from an intensely personal perspective, but I argue that there are many who shared the path I chose to walk, and I believe that anything that removes the ability of these people to contribute to society and to our industry, is unfair, dangerous and against the interests of the industry as a whole.
I know that I am PROUD to work in this industry, it is with pride that I stand among my colleagues, both Kenyan and otherwise, both certified and non-certified, and I just want the opportunity to continue the work I have dedicated the last 21 years of my life to and continue to build this industry and be able to contribute.
Just my thoughts
Andrew
From: kictanet [mailto:kictanet-bounces+andrew.alston= liquidtelecom.com@lists.kictanet.or.ke] On Behalf Of Dorcas Muthoni via kictanet Sent: 02 December 2016 11:53 To: Andrew Alston <Andrew.Alston@liquidtelecom.com> Cc: Dorcas Muthoni <dmuthoni@gmail.com> Subject: Re: [kictanet] ICT Authority to weed out quacks
Unfortunately, judging from my experience, both in public and private sector, HR and top IT management do indeed either get it wrong, lack ability or sometimes objectivity while onboarding vendors or staff.
In which case, industry professionals can help in defining a criteria for all. This of course should also be shared with tertiary institutions and universities.
As we know, new professions are being defined daily. Some core fundamentals remain the same.
On Dec 2, 2016 11:27 AM, "Francis Nderitu via kictanet" < kictanet@lists.kictanet.or.ke<mailto:kictanet@lists.kictanet.or.ke>> wrote: In my own view this kind of vetting they are asking for should be institutional but not individual - which is already happening naturally. Does Company A have the capacity to offer service XYZ? That kind of approach could be helpful, just like in the construction industry, diffrent companies have diffrent clearance level.
On Fri, Dec 2, 2016 at 11:03 AM, Nelson J kwaje via kictanet < kictanet@lists.kictanet.or.ke<mailto:kictanet@lists.kictanet.or.ke>> wrote:
@James,
I like how people are open minded about ICT professional. it is okay to be a drop out, it is okay to not have any qualifications, just have passion and be good at what you do.
Doctors and Pilots used to be treated the same way. few regulations, few standards and no regularity body until we realized that our lives depends on these people and their mistakes can be catastrophic.
The ICT Industry is heading in the same direction. our errors are starting to cause some serious damages and the society is right when it demands some yardstick to know who is who.
Will you fly with an uncertified pilot ?
Can you go to the operating theater with a passionate and committed doctor but no certificate ?
Why will you accept anyone to mange the system for your bank, hospital, airport and even national security.
Cheers
Nelson
On 02/12/2016 10:42 WD, James Muendo wrote: Nelson,
"we can not sit and and watch as the industry gets diluted in the name of innovation and disruption."
I think what you have quoted there is what drives the profession and the industry at large. What you are suggesting is we curb creativity of people who seek to curb a niche out of the huge industry. As Ahmed said, this is not like professions, like, being a doctor or a lawyer that have a pre-set set of standards. If anything, the industry thrives on its dynamic nature, which leads to disruption and innovation.
On that I beg to disagree with you. Also, in terms of standards, if we look outside .KE, what other country/town has ICT standards?
Am with Ngigi in this one, we need to separate business from profession. The tricky bit, would be, what criteria will you use to do so.
Regards,
On 2 December 2016 at 10:28, Nelson J kwaje via kictanet < kictanet@lists.kictanet.or.ke<mailto:kictanet@lists.kictanet.or.ke>> wrote:
Let us face it, the ICT Industry has a problem with standards, ambiguity rules the ICT Industry in Kenya. the words below can have as many meanings as the are ICT professionals
* Cloud Solution * Software Architect * Software Developer * IoT * Web APP * and many other
we can not sit and and watch as the industry gets diluted in the name of innovation and disruption.
On 02/12/2016 10:12 WD, Dorcas Muthoni via kictanet wrote:
My point is, chaos are eminent in the industry. Is it what we want.. NO.
Then, let's agree on the criteria. ICT Authority is part of the KICTANET community, let's engage them, instead of shooting in your defense. Let's get a constructive multi-stakeholder engagement.
I am afraid that having a few highly opinionated people rule mailing lists stalls multi-stakeholder participation.
I hope that the ICT Authority is listening somewhere.
On Dec 2, 2016 10:00 AM, "Ahmed Mohamed Maawy via kictanet" < kictanet@lists.kictanet.or.ke<mailto:kictanet@lists.kictanet.or.ke>> wrote: Its not really about why people feel insecure. Its about what policy is meant to do. Why? Technologists are not doctors or lawyers. With all due respect. What does the education system offer as a yardstick for competence? Most of us got jobs before we even graduated school. And we went on to work for projects and institutions that went on to win Awards in the international arena.
You see, IT is not about being a Doctor or being a Lawyer (where theory is a factor). IT is an operational field. IT, more than any other field - is based on Talent. Not much on Knowledge. This is why we have so many people out of Uni looking for Internships that they can not find. In a market where the dynamics are governed by people who did not even do that degree - to drive technical jobs.
And yes, we have several CEOs in several companies who (and some of them entrepreneur their own way through) did not even do a BCom at the least. Some of them did not even see an higher learning institution. We need to understand that the market dynamics are shifting. Schools in developing are evolving. Why? Because Technology has changed the education field. The education field is not changing technology. Apologies if we believe so. Just my two cents.
On Fri, Dec 2, 2016 at 9:39 AM, Collins Areba via kictanet < kictanet@lists.kictanet.or.ke<mailto:kictanet@lists.kictanet.or.ke>> wrote: @Dorcas. Before we even get to answering why many people are insecure about the discussion, I would point to the more obvious question. What are the protagonists trying to do? what are they trying to solve? Unfortunately thus far, It is not clear. What is in need of regulation? and why does it need to be regulated? is this regulation for regulation's sake?
I did mention yesterday that from my point of view, Regulation makes sense only where there is a limited resource, shared by many, which left without regulation would result in disorder and "law of the jungle". Which ICT component is this that needs to be streamlined to prevent it from spiralling out of control?
From where I sit, It feels like a bunch of individuals feel shortchanged about the time, effort and money they spent in learning "the science" only to come out here and find the arena flattened by the same technology. It feels like "the bill" which seeks to assign non existent value to those that feel some level of entitlement to that "ict professional" title purely on the basis of having done ICT formally.
I stand corrected.
On Fri, Dec 2, 2016 at 9:02 AM, Dorcas Muthoni via kictanet < kictanet@lists.kictanet.or.ke<mailto:kictanet@lists.kictanet.or.ke>> wrote:
Why are so many people insecure about this topic.
Can a bank CEO act as the principal legal officer of a bank? Why not?
Which Innovators are these people are referring to? As far as I know, most of the referenced global innovators dropped out of some computer science programs and employ thousands of highly qualified CS and engineering graduates.
I don't think starting a box-pushing or software license reselling entity coupled with hiring a few technicians can turn anyone into a domain professional. Let's get this straight and boldly address the true issues at hand.
Obviously, this loose arrangement is leading to the proliferation of extreme tender-prenuership.
Can anyone point me to potential local Bill Gates, Larry Page or Mark Mark Zuckerberg. We can't use such example to complicate this discussion.
If anything, we should be providing a friendly environment those with money and great experience invest in highly scalable startups.
Nothing bars anyone who falls short of an agreed criteria from working on it.
Obviously, we cannot water down such an important topic.
On Dec 1, 2016 10:28 PM, "Alfred Kinyua via kictanet" < kictanet@lists.kictanet.or.ke<mailto:kictanet@lists.kictanet.or.ke>> wrote:
Two things stand out, concerning ICT Authority. 1. Conformance of set standards (raising the bar). 2. locking out unqualified personnel, where government has interests . This is not a trivial issue, because one might be qualified but incompetent (theorists) / unsitable, while the opposite might be true, unqualufied but competent/suitable, this is true for ICT realtad mattets. Personally I thing further probing is required.
On Dec 1, 2016 22:01, "Beryl Aidi via kictanet" < kictanet@lists.kictanet.or.ke<mailto:kictanet@lists.kictanet.or.ke>> wrote: Hi All, Law and policy seldom exist in a vacuum. Does anyone know anywhere in the world where the kind of regulation or ICT standards being anticipated to be used to weed out quacks have been used successfully? Successfully here being key, which means no victimization of those without any certifications that may exist; startups; or those just playing around and happen to stumble on something that may end up taking the world by storm; and by no means a way to stifle internet freedoms. Anyone knows where such a model exists? My two cents.
Beryl Aidi
On Thu, Dec 1, 2016 at 9:41 PM, Waithaka Ngigi via kictanet < kictanet@lists.kictanet.or.ke<mailto:kictanet@lists.kictanet.or.ke>> wrote: In summary... ICT is "...A coalition of The Willing..."
Waithaka Ngigi
Alliance Technologies www.at.co.ke<http://www.at.co.ke> From: Collins Areba via kictanet Sent: Thursday, December 1, 2016 9:30 PM To: Ngigi Waithaka Reply To: KICTAnet ICT Policy Discussions Cc: Collins Areba; KICTAnet ICT Policy Discussions Subject: Re: [kictanet] ICT Authority to weed out quacks
Exactly! ICT is a disruptive sector. It is unfortunate when we attempt to define it as one would engineering, or architecture, or survey. The action - reaction - feedback - correction continum time wise is soo tiny. A decision for instance in some of these association, say which colour to paint a wall might take four months.
I would still ask, what is the problem we are trying to solve? If this can be defined we should be in a position to find solutions collectively.
On 1 Dec 2016 21:12, "Mwendwa Kivuva" <Kivuva@transworldafrica.com<m ailto:Kivuva@transworldafrica.com>> wrote:
The said procurement quacks are like Josephine Kabura. But they are not really quacks because they work as conduits for their masters in high places.
If it was possible to weed out "quacks" from the industry, the said masters would still use the "professionals" to commit heinous crimes.
Show me major scandals in Kenya conducted by quacks and I will show you a liar. Goldenberg, Anglo-leasing, euro bond...
On Dec 1, 2016 7:36 PM, "Collins Areba via kictanet" < kictanet@lists.kictanet.or.ke<mailto:kictanet@lists.kictanet.or.ke>> wrote:
I believe regulation should only be present where there is a limited, shared resource that might be subject to abuse. Short of having a set of rules: don't test an EMP in a built up area, don't access government servers even if their passwords are admin, admin. Don't give the president's number on twitter, etc etc etc. That is progressive legislation.
On 1 Dec 2016 18:24, "Collins Areba" <arebacollins@gmail.com<mailto: arebacollins@gmail.com>> wrote:
Dorcas: show me the chaos. Then we discuss order.
On 1 Dec 2016 18:17, "James Muendo" <james@muendo.co.ke<mailto:jam es@muendo.co.ke>> wrote: Collins,
+1
-- James Muendo
Chief Executive Officer (CEO),
Logic Craft Ltd,
Suite 39, 2nd Floor, Visions Plaza, Mombasa Road
P.O Box 28016 ? 00200,
Nairobi,KE
M:| +254.725.567.508 S: | tim.rick Gtalk:| james.muendo T: | @MmuendoW:| http://about.me/muendo
Too Brief? Here's Why
On Thu, Dec 1, 2016 at 6:15 PM +0300, "Collins Areba via kictanet" < kictanet@lists.kictanet.or.ke<mailto:kictanet@lists.kictanet.or.ke>> wrote:
Personally I seek examples of the damage done by the said quacks that professional institutions haven't done. The distinct point of departure which will show the distinct difference so as to justify regulation.
On 1 Dec 2016 17:32, "waudo siganga via kictanet" < kictanet@lists.kictanet.or.ke<mailto:kictanet@lists.kictanet.or.ke>> wrote: Kivuva, you forgot Zuckerberg.
On Thu, Dec 1, 2016, at 11:47 AM, Mwendwa Kivuva via kictanet wrote: College drop outs who rule the world.
Michael Saul Dell, William Henry ?Bill? Gates iii, Paul Gardner Allen, Lawrence Joseph Ellison, Stephen ?Woz? Wozniak, Steven Paul Jobs, Robert Edward ?Ted? Turner iii http://lord.me.ke/college-dropouts-who-rule-the-world/
I wonder who among those would be considered an ICT pro in Kenya.
______________________ Mwendwa Kivuva, Nairobi, Kenya twitter.com/lordmwesh<http://twitter.com/lordmwesh>
On 1 December 2016 at 12:03, Ali Hussein via kictanet < kictanet@lists.kictanet.or.ke<mailto:kictanet@lists.kictanet.or.ke>> wrote: The real important question has not been answered. Not since the term ICT started being used.
WHO IS AN ICT PRACTITIONER?
And who is this WATCHDOG who will abrogate himself/herself the role of GateKeeper and RentSeeker?
Ali Hussein Principal Hussein & Associates +254 0713 601113 <+254%20713%20601113> <+254%20713%20601113><tel:+254 %20713%20601113>
Twitter: @AliHKassim
Skype: abu-jomo
LinkedIn: http://ke.linkedin.com/in/alihkassim
"Discovery consists in seeing what everyone else has seen and thinking what no one else has thought". ~ Albert Szent-Gy?rgyi
Sent from my iPad
On 1 Dec 2016, at 10:51 AM, Athar Ahmad Bhatti via kictanet < kictanet@lists.kictanet.or.ke<mailto:kictanet@lists.kictanet.or.ke>> wrote:
Brian they will implant a chip in your brain and track your IQ to see whether you are fit for IT. Whereas the millennial generation will lose most as they are hands on.
Athar Ahmad Bhatti +254726488311 <+254%20726%20488311> <+254%20726%20488311><tel:+254 %20726%20488311>
On Thu, Dec 1, 2016 at 10:43 AM +0300, "Brian Muhia via kictanet" < kictanet@lists.kictanet.or.ke<mailto:kictanet@lists.kictanet.or.ke>> wrote:
This is only to be applied to people trying to do contract jobs for the government, right?
On Thu, Dec 1, 2016 at 10:27 AM WANGARI KABIRU via kictanet < kictanet@lists.kictanet.or.ke<mailto:kictanet@lists.kictanet.or.ke>> wrote: Blessed Thursday!
Might the sector be getting its shape?
Private schooling started as an innovative approach to education - now we even have more innovative home schooling and best practice approaches. Healthcare etc
Who has helped to weed out quacks proactively in most instances - it is the industry associations working with the governments. An angle to borrow from.
"....He said the authority will in the next couple of weeks launch ICT standards where every professional in the field seeking to serve public service must comply. ?One of the things which we are doing very soon in the next couple of weeks, is that we shall be launching ICT standard, these are ICT national standards and we plan on having them effective from first of January and based on that vendors will have to comply with the standards,? said the CEO, adding that those who will not comply to the standards will be blacklisted..."
How might the players engage in the discourse to give it shape while keep its jelly-nature?
Be blessed.
Regards/Wangari
--- Pray God Bless. 2013Wangari circa - "Being of the Light, We are Restored Through Faith in Mind, Body and Spirit; We Manifest The Kingdom of God on Earth".
On Thursday, 1 December 2016, 8:43, Ahmed Mohamed Maawy via kictanet < kictanet@lists.kictanet.or.ke<mailto:kictanet@lists.kictanet.or.ke>> wrote:
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participants (4)
-
Ahmed Mohamed Maawy -
Collins Areba -
James Muendo -
Paul Korir