Reading from the article it says there is a list. On Jan 29, 2015 1:23 PM, "Dennis Kioko" <dmbuvi@gmail.com> wrote:

Does Kenya have necessary laws, and do the copyright holders have a list of infringing sites?

On Thu, 29 Jan 2015 13:04 Bernard Kioko <bkioko@bernsoft.com> wrote:

...

http://www.ispreview.co.uk/index.php/2014/11/uk-high-court-forces-big-isps-b... On Jan 29, 2015 12:51 PM, "Dennis Kioko via kictanet" < kictanet@lists.kictanet.or.ke> wrote:

...

Interesting case, though I wonder how ISPs allow people to allow content illegally. Any one with some insight? http://www.businessdailyafrica.com/Corporate-News/Music-copyright-owners-ill...

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Davis, Blocking of the sites is not the only thing the petition has asked for.It has also for CCK and KECOBO to create for legal framework against illegal exploitation of copyright.. From: Davis Onsakia [mailto:mautidavis@gmail.com] Sent: Thursday, January 29, 2015 2:31 PM To: Bernard Kioko; KICTAnet ICT Policy Discussions Subject: Re: [kictanet] Music Copyright Owners sue ISPs for allowing Kenyans to download content illegally Will be an interesting case to keep the eye on. What is not in doubt is that the final ruling will set a very serious precedent on how to deal with copyright issues when it comes to the Online World. Best Regards, Davis M Onsakia "One doesn't discover new lands without consenting to lose sight of the shore for a very long time." On 29 January 2015 at 13:46, Bernard Kioko via kictanet <kictanet@lists.kictanet.or.ke> wrote: Reading from the article it says there is a list. On Jan 29, 2015 1:23 PM, "Dennis Kioko" <dmbuvi@gmail.com> wrote: Does Kenya have necessary laws, and do the copyright holders have a list of infringing sites? On Thu, 29 Jan 2015 13:04 Bernard Kioko <bkioko@bernsoft.com> wrote: http://www.ispreview.co.uk/index.php/2014/11/uk-high-court-forces-big-isps-b lock-56-new-internet-piracy-websites.html On Jan 29, 2015 12:51 PM, "Dennis Kioko via kictanet" <kictanet@lists.kictanet.or.ke> wrote: Interesting case, though I wonder how ISPs allow people to allow content illegally. Any one with some insight? http://www.businessdailyafrica.com/Corporate-News/Music-copyright-owners-ill egal-downloads/-/539550/2605386/-/na4mbsz/-/index.html _______________________________________________ kictanet mailing list kictanet@lists.kictanet.or.ke https://lists.kictanet.or.ke/mailman/listinfo/kictanet Unsubscribe or change your options at https://lists.kictanet.or.ke/mailman/options/kictanet/bkioko%40bernsoft.com The Kenya ICT Action Network (KICTANet) is a multi-stakeholder platform for people and institutions interested and involved in ICT policy and regulation. The network aims to act as a catalyst for reform in the ICT sector in support of the national aim of ICT enabled growth and development. KICTANetiquette : Adhere to the same standards of acceptable behaviors online that you follow in real life: respect people's times and bandwidth, share knowledge, don't flame or abuse or personalize, respect privacy, do not spam, do not market your wares or qualifications. _____ <http://bernsoft.com/img/logo.jpg> This e-mail and any attachments may contain information that is confidential, legally privileged and protected by law and is intended for the sole use of the named recipient(s). Any unauthorized review, use, or disclosure or distribution is prohibited. Any liability (in negligence or otherwise) arising from any third party acting, or refraining from acting on any information contained in this email is hereby excluded. If you are not the intended recipient, please delete the contents and notify the sender immediately; do not disclose the contents to any other person, use it for any purpose or store or copy the information in any medium. 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James i posted a link where high court in UK ruled those same sites be blocked by ISPs and that's happening. What's ur comment on that? On Jan 29, 2015 2:43 PM, "James Mbugua via kictanet" < kictanet@lists.kictanet.or.ke> wrote:

Listers,

Hmm...I don't know why I get the feeling this is a case of throwing mud at the wall to see if it will stick.

ISPs have never been held liable for downloading illegal content anywhere in the world. From the get go let us dispense with that. Neither will they be found so in this case.

I remember vividly when Napster came out and also when Kazaa followed....groups went after the sites not the ISPs. To this day, it is piracy sites that even the FBI goes for not the likes of Comcast or AT$T. Data privacy does not allow you to start checking what your customer is downloading or uploading....this is not China and getting into that territory is very dangerous for people's rights.

Let these guys do the hard work and go for the piracy sites or sue NTSA for allowing bhang to be transported on our roads.

lol

Regards,

James

On Thu, Jan 29, 2015 at 2:30 PM, Davis Onsakia via kictanet < kictanet@lists.kictanet.or.ke> wrote:

...

Will be an interesting case to keep the eye on.

What is not in doubt is that the final ruling will set a very serious precedent on how to deal with copyright issues when it comes to the Online World.

Best Regards, Davis M Onsakia "One doesn't discover new lands without consenting to lose sight of the shore for a very long time."

On 29 January 2015 at 13:46, Bernard Kioko via kictanet < kictanet@lists.kictanet.or.ke> wrote:

...

Reading from the article it says there is a list. On Jan 29, 2015 1:23 PM, "Dennis Kioko" <dmbuvi@gmail.com> wrote:

...

Does Kenya have necessary laws, and do the copyright holders have a list of infringing sites?

On Thu, 29 Jan 2015 13:04 Bernard Kioko <bkioko@bernsoft.com> wrote:

...

http://www.ispreview.co.uk/index.php/2014/11/uk-high-court-forces-big-isps-b... On Jan 29, 2015 12:51 PM, "Dennis Kioko via kictanet" < kictanet@lists.kictanet.or.ke> wrote:

...

Interesting case, though I wonder how ISPs allow people to allow content illegally. Any one with some insight? http://www.businessdailyafrica.com/Corporate-News/Music-copyright-owners-ill...

_______________________________________________

...

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At one point many ppl didn't believe mpesa would be possible.. It took intervention from the late minister michuki.... We r country used to being first in many things On Jan 29, 2015 2:59 PM, "Mark Kipyegon via kictanet" < kictanet@lists.kictanet.or.ke> wrote:

From a technical standpoint how feasible is it to simply blacklist sites?

Clone sites and proxies exist to circumvent these blocks.

...

James i posted a link where high court in UK ruled those same sites be blocked by ISPs and that's happening.

What's ur comment on that? On Jan 29, 2015 2:43 PM, "James Mbugua via kictanet" < kictanet@lists.kictanet.or.ke> wrote:

...

Listers,

Hmm...I don't know why I get the feeling this is a case of throwing mud at the wall to see if it will stick.

ISPs have never been held liable for downloading illegal content anywhere in the world. From the get go let us dispense with that. Neither will

On 29/01/2015 14:48, Bernard Kioko via kictanet wrote: they

...

...

be found so in this case.

I remember vividly when Napster came out and also when Kazaa followed....groups went after the sites not the ISPs. To this day, it is piracy sites that even the FBI goes for not the likes of Comcast or AT$T. Data privacy does not allow you to start checking what your customer is downloading or uploading....this is not China and getting into that territory is very dangerous for people's rights.

Let these guys do the hard work and go for the piracy sites or sue NTSA for allowing bhang to be transported on our roads.

lol

Regards,

James

On Thu, Jan 29, 2015 at 2:30 PM, Davis Onsakia via kictanet < kictanet@lists.kictanet.or.ke> wrote:

...

Will be an interesting case to keep the eye on.

What is not in doubt is that the final ruling will set a very serious precedent on how to deal with copyright issues when it comes to the Online World.

Best Regards, Davis M Onsakia "One doesn't discover new lands without consenting to lose sight of the shore for a very long time."

On 29 January 2015 at 13:46, Bernard Kioko via kictanet < kictanet@lists.kictanet.or.ke> wrote:

...

Reading from the article it says there is a list. On Jan 29, 2015 1:23 PM, "Dennis Kioko" <dmbuvi@gmail.com> wrote:

...

Does Kenya have necessary laws, and do the copyright holders have a list of infringing sites?

On Thu, 29 Jan 2015 13:04 Bernard Kioko <bkioko@bernsoft.com> wrote:

> > http://www.ispreview.co.uk/index.php/2014/11/uk-high-court-forces-big-isps-b... > On Jan 29, 2015 12:51 PM, "Dennis Kioko via kictanet" < > kictanet@lists.kictanet.or.ke> wrote: > >> Interesting case, though I wonder how ISPs allow people to allow >> content illegally. Any one with some insight? >> http://www.businessdailyafrica.com/Corporate-News/Music-copyright-owners-ill... >> >>

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KICTANetiquette : Adhere to the same standards of acceptable behaviors online that you follow in real life: respect people's times and bandwidth, share knowledge, don't flame or abuse or personalize, respect privacy, do not spam, do not market your wares or qualifications.

-- * ------------------------------ * This e-mail and any attachments may contain information that is confidential, legally privileged and protected by law and is intended for the sole use of the named recipient(s). Any unauthorized review, use, or disclosure or distribution is prohibited. Any liability (in negligence or otherwise) arising from any third party acting, or refraining from acting on any information contained in this email is hereby excluded. If you are not the intended recipient, please delete the contents and notify the sender immediately; do not disclose the contents to any other person, use it for any purpose or store or copy the information in any medium. Whilst our e-mails are checked for viruses, we cannot guarantee that this message or any attachment is virus free, does not contain malicious code or is incompatible with your electronic system and the Company does not accept liability in respect of viruses, malicious code or any related problems that you might experience. For further information about us, please contact us at the address indicated below. Bernsoft Interactive Limited - P O Box 15177-00100 Nairobi - Tel: +254 722 929192 Email: admin@bernsoft.com Web: www.bernsoft.com

James, you didn't make a comment about the link I shared where what we are asking has been done. Also pls note we haven't sued anyone. This is a petition. There is a difference. We are seeking orders to aid them find solid ground to block sites and not compelling them to do so, for not soft law exist, and we are seeking orders compelling government agencies to create these soft policies as they should and have funds for. Do you still find an issue with that direction? Bernard, I asked you, Can you sue NTSA for allowing Bhang to be transported on our roads? ??? Exactly, how the hell are they supposed to know who is transporting bhang? In your case, exactly how the hell are ISPs supposed to know you are downloading music illegally? You guys are just looking for traction here....the people you should talk to are Kenic if they registered them and the owners of the servers where these sites are hosted. ISPs have nothing to do with this. James On Thu, Jan 29, 2015 at 3:04 PM, Bernard Kioko via kictanet < kictanet@lists.kictanet.or.ke> wrote:

At one point many ppl didn't believe mpesa would be possible.. It took intervention from the late minister michuki....

We r country used to being first in many things On Jan 29, 2015 2:59 PM, "Mark Kipyegon via kictanet" < kictanet@lists.kictanet.or.ke> wrote:

...

From a technical standpoint how feasible is it to simply blacklist sites?

Clone sites and proxies exist to circumvent these blocks.

...

James i posted a link where high court in UK ruled those same sites be blocked by ISPs and that's happening.

What's ur comment on that? On Jan 29, 2015 2:43 PM, "James Mbugua via kictanet" < kictanet@lists.kictanet.or.ke> wrote:

...

Listers,

Hmm...I don't know why I get the feeling this is a case of throwing mud at the wall to see if it will stick.

ISPs have never been held liable for downloading illegal content anywhere in the world. From the get go let us dispense with that. Neither will

...

...

be found so in this case.

I remember vividly when Napster came out and also when Kazaa followed....groups went after the sites not the ISPs. To this day, it is piracy sites that even the FBI goes for not the likes of Comcast or AT$T. Data privacy does not allow you to start checking what your customer is downloading or uploading....this is not China and getting into that territory is very dangerous for people's rights.

Let these guys do the hard work and go for the piracy sites or sue NTSA for allowing bhang to be transported on our roads.

lol

Regards,

James

On Thu, Jan 29, 2015 at 2:30 PM, Davis Onsakia via kictanet < kictanet@lists.kictanet.or.ke> wrote:

...

Will be an interesting case to keep the eye on.

What is not in doubt is that the final ruling will set a very serious precedent on how to deal with copyright issues when it comes to the Online World.

Best Regards, Davis M Onsakia "One doesn't discover new lands without consenting to lose sight of

On 29/01/2015 14:48, Bernard Kioko via kictanet wrote: they the

...

...

...

shore for a very long time."

On 29 January 2015 at 13:46, Bernard Kioko via kictanet < kictanet@lists.kictanet.or.ke> wrote:

...

Reading from the article it says there is a list. On Jan 29, 2015 1:23 PM, "Dennis Kioko" <dmbuvi@gmail.com> wrote:

> Does Kenya have necessary laws, and do the copyright holders have a > list of infringing sites? > > On Thu, 29 Jan 2015 13:04 Bernard Kioko <bkioko@bernsoft.com> wrote: > >> >> http://www.ispreview.co.uk/index.php/2014/11/uk-high-court-forces-big-isps-b... >> On Jan 29, 2015 12:51 PM, "Dennis Kioko via kictanet" < >> kictanet@lists.kictanet.or.ke> wrote: >> >>> Interesting case, though I wonder how ISPs allow people to allow >>> content illegally. Any one with some insight? >>> http://www.businessdailyafrica.com/Corporate-News/Music-copyright-owners-ill... >>> >>>

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KICTANetiquette : Adhere to the same standards of acceptable behaviors online that you follow in real life: respect people's times and bandwidth, share knowledge, don't flame or abuse or personalize, respect privacy, do not spam, do not market your wares or qualifications.

* ------------------------------ *

This e-mail and any attachments may contain information that is confidential, legally privileged and protected by law and is intended for the sole use of the named recipient(s). Any unauthorized review, use, or disclosure or distribution is prohibited. Any liability (in negligence or otherwise) arising from any third party acting, or refraining from acting on any information contained in this email is hereby excluded. If you are not the intended recipient, please delete the contents and notify the sender immediately; do not disclose the contents to any other person, use it for any purpose or store or copy the information in any medium. Whilst our e-mails are checked for viruses, we cannot guarantee that this message or any attachment is virus free, does not contain malicious code or is incompatible with your electronic system and the Company does not accept liability in respect of viruses, malicious code or any related problems that you might experience. For further information about us, please contact us at the address indicated below.

Bernsoft Interactive Limited - P O Box 15177-00100 Nairobi - Tel: +254 722 929192 Email: admin@bernsoft.com Web: www.bernsoft.com

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KICTANetiquette : Adhere to the same standards of acceptable behaviors online that you follow in real life: respect people's times and bandwidth, share knowledge, don't flame or abuse or personalize, respect privacy, do not spam, do not market your wares or qualifications.

-- * ------------------------------ * This e-mail and any attachments may contain information that is confidential, legally privileged and protected by law and is intended for the sole use of the named recipient(s). Any unauthorized review, use, or disclosure or distribution is prohibited. Any liability (in negligence or otherwise) arising from any third party acting, or refraining from acting on any information contained in this email is hereby excluded. If you are not the intended recipient, please delete the contents and notify the sender immediately; do not disclose the contents to any other person, use it for any purpose or store or copy the information in any medium. Whilst our e-mails are checked for viruses, we cannot guarantee that this message or any attachment is virus free, does not contain malicious code or is incompatible with your electronic system and the Company does not accept liability in respect of viruses, malicious code or any related problems that you might experience. For further information about us, please contact us at the address indicated below. Bernsoft Interactive Limited - P O Box 15177-00100 Nairobi - Tel: +254 722 929192 Email: admin@bernsoft.com Web: www.bernsoft.com

DHL is a "host" and not an "ISP" , an ISP is equivalent of a road here. Our of curiosity, why is bernsoft.com suspended? I also don't understand this related issue http://www.the-star.co.ke/news/article-153378/bernsoft-stops-direct-financin... , shouldn't the issue be left to the artist and their producer, who do they have to go through a middleman? I keep saying that in Kenya we are lucky not to have regulation governing lots of stuff, it gives us the opportunity to innovate. If we had regulated M-Pesa, it would probably have stated that you require a phone with a physical keyboard and a 2G network, which technology is quickly moving away from. If the issue is our culture of not paying for stuff, how will copyright holders police me sharing my music folder on the cloud to my friends, or sharing my Mp3 collection via bluetooth or flashdisk? I think copyright holders should be working on enabling buyers, otherwise they will be caught up in an expensive and fruitless war pitting them and ISPs. ISPs are not customers, they just deliver Internet. On Fri Jan 30 2015 at 09:41:56 David Makali via kictanet < kictanet@lists.kictanet.or.ke> wrote:

Wrong analogy, James. You do not ask NTSA but you apprehend the vehicle owner/driver/The transporter. Try and ferry your Bhang with DHL or even Easy Coach if you know what I mean. You have to declare your goods! Same to those who want to use the ISP. Vicarious liability... David

This is official mail. If you doubt the content, call back on +254722517540.

On Jan 29, 2015, at 3:09 PM, James Mbugua via kictanet < kictanet@lists.kictanet.or.ke> wrote:

Bernard,

I asked you, Can you sue NTSA for allowing Bhang to be transported on our roads?

???

Exactly, how the hell are they supposed to know who is transporting bhang?

In your case, exactly how the hell are ISPs supposed to know you are downloading music illegally?

You guys are just looking for traction here....the people you should talk to are Kenic if they registered them and the owners of the servers where these sites are hosted. ISPs have nothing to do with this.

James

On Thu, Jan 29, 2015 at 3:04 PM, Bernard Kioko via kictanet < kictanet@lists.kictanet.or.ke> wrote:

...

At one point many ppl didn't believe mpesa would be possible.. It took intervention from the late minister michuki....

We r country used to being first in many things On Jan 29, 2015 2:59 PM, "Mark Kipyegon via kictanet" < kictanet@lists.kictanet.or.ke> wrote:

...

From a technical standpoint how feasible is it to simply blacklist sites?

Clone sites and proxies exist to circumvent these blocks.

...

James i posted a link where high court in UK ruled those same sites be blocked by ISPs and that's happening.

What's ur comment on that? On Jan 29, 2015 2:43 PM, "James Mbugua via kictanet" < kictanet@lists.kictanet.or.ke> wrote:

...

Listers,

Hmm...I don't know why I get the feeling this is a case of throwing mud at the wall to see if it will stick.

ISPs have never been held liable for downloading illegal content anywhere in the world. From the get go let us dispense with that. Neither will

...

...

be found so in this case.

I remember vividly when Napster came out and also when Kazaa followed....groups went after the sites not the ISPs. To this day, it is piracy sites that even the FBI goes for not the likes of Comcast or AT$T. Data privacy does not allow you to start checking what your customer is downloading or uploading....this is not China and getting into that territory is very dangerous for people's rights.

Let these guys do the hard work and go for the piracy sites or sue NTSA for allowing bhang to be transported on our roads.

lol

Regards,

James

On Thu, Jan 29, 2015 at 2:30 PM, Davis Onsakia via kictanet < kictanet@lists.kictanet.or.ke> wrote:

...

Will be an interesting case to keep the eye on.

What is not in doubt is that the final ruling will set a very serious precedent on how to deal with copyright issues when it comes to the Online World.

Best Regards, Davis M Onsakia "One doesn't discover new lands without consenting to lose sight of

On 29/01/2015 14:48, Bernard Kioko via kictanet wrote: they the

...

...

...

shore for a very long time."

On 29 January 2015 at 13:46, Bernard Kioko via kictanet < kictanet@lists.kictanet.or.ke> wrote:

> Reading from the article it says there is a list. > On Jan 29, 2015 1:23 PM, "Dennis Kioko" <dmbuvi@gmail.com> wrote: > >> Does Kenya have necessary laws, and do the copyright holders have a >> list of infringing sites? >> >> On Thu, 29 Jan 2015 13:04 Bernard Kioko <bkioko@bernsoft.com> wrote: >> >>> >>> http://www.ispreview.co.uk/index.php/2014/11/uk-high-court-forces-big-isps-b... >>> On Jan 29, 2015 12:51 PM, "Dennis Kioko via kictanet" < >>> kictanet@lists.kictanet.or.ke> wrote: >>> >>>> Interesting case, though I wonder how ISPs allow people to allow >>>> content illegally. Any one with some insight? >>>> http://www.businessdailyafrica.com/Corporate-News/Music-copyright-owners-ill... >>>> >>>>

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The Kenya ICT Action Network (KICTANet) is a multi-stakeholder platform for people and institutions interested and involved in ICT policy and regulation. The network aims to act as a catalyst for reform in the ICT sector in support of the national aim of ICT enabled growth and development.

KICTANetiquette : Adhere to the same standards of acceptable behaviors online that you follow in real life: respect people's times and bandwidth, share knowledge, don't flame or abuse or personalize, respect privacy, do not spam, do not market your wares or qualifications.

* ------------------------------ *

This e-mail and any attachments may contain information that is confidential, legally privileged and protected by law and is intended for the sole use of the named recipient(s). Any unauthorized review, use, or disclosure or distribution is prohibited. Any liability (in negligence or otherwise) arising from any third party acting, or refraining from acting on any information contained in this email is hereby excluded. If you are not the intended recipient, please delete the contents and notify the sender immediately; do not disclose the contents to any other person, use it for any purpose or store or copy the information in any medium. Whilst our e-mails are checked for viruses, we cannot guarantee that this message or any attachment is virus free, does not contain malicious code or is incompatible with your electronic system and the Company does not accept liability in respect of viruses, malicious code or any related problems that you might experience. For further information about us, please contact us at the address indicated below.

Bernsoft Interactive Limited - P O Box 15177-00100 Nairobi - Tel: +254 722 929192 Email: admin@bernsoft.com Web: www.bernsoft.com

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KICTANetiquette : Adhere to the same standards of acceptable behaviors online that you follow in real life: respect people's times and bandwidth, share knowledge, don't flame or abuse or personalize, respect privacy, do not spam, do not market your wares or qualifications.

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The Kenya ICT Action Network (KICTANet) is a multi-stakeholder platform for people and institutions interested and involved in ICT policy and regulation. The network aims to act as a catalyst for reform in the ICT sector in support of the national aim of ICT enabled growth and development.

KICTANetiquette : Adhere to the same standards of acceptable behaviors online that you follow in real life: respect people's times and bandwidth, share knowledge, don't flame or abuse or personalize, respect privacy, do not spam, do not market your wares or qualifications.

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The Kenya ICT Action Network (KICTANet) is a multi-stakeholder platform for people and institutions interested and involved in ICT policy and regulation. The network aims to act as a catalyst for reform in the ICT sector in support of the national aim of ICT enabled growth and development.

KICTANetiquette : Adhere to the same standards of acceptable behaviors online that you follow in real life: respect people's times and bandwidth, share knowledge, don't flame or abuse or personalize, respect privacy, do not spam, do not market your wares or qualifications.

That is a good analogy David. I think our musicians need to figure out how best to survive in the present ecosystem,at times legalese is not always the best route. Best Regards On 1/30/15, David Makali via kictanet <kictanet@lists.kictanet.or.ke> wrote:

Wrong analogy, James. You do not ask NTSA but you apprehend the vehicle owner/driver/The transporter. Try and ferry your Bhang with DHL or even Easy Coach if you know what I mean. You have to declare your goods! Same to those who want to use the ISP. Vicarious liability... David

This is official mail. If you doubt the content, call back on +254722517540.

...

On Jan 29, 2015, at 3:09 PM, James Mbugua via kictanet <kictanet@lists.kictanet.or.ke> wrote:

Bernard,

I asked you, Can you sue NTSA for allowing Bhang to be transported on our roads?

???

Exactly, how the hell are they supposed to know who is transporting bhang?

In your case, exactly how the hell are ISPs supposed to know you are downloading music illegally?

You guys are just looking for traction here....the people you should talk to are Kenic if they registered them and the owners of the servers where these sites are hosted. ISPs have nothing to do with this.

James

...

On Thu, Jan 29, 2015 at 3:04 PM, Bernard Kioko via kictanet <kictanet@lists.kictanet.or.ke> wrote: At one point many ppl didn't believe mpesa would be possible.. It took intervention from the late minister michuki....

We r country used to being first in many things

...

On Jan 29, 2015 2:59 PM, "Mark Kipyegon via kictanet" <kictanet@lists.kictanet.or.ke> wrote: From a technical standpoint how feasible is it to simply blacklist sites?

Clone sites and proxies exist to circumvent these blocks.

On 29/01/2015 14:48, Bernard Kioko via kictanet wrote:

...

James i posted a link where high court in UK ruled those same sites be blocked by ISPs and that's happening.

What's ur comment on that? On Jan 29, 2015 2:43 PM, "James Mbugua via kictanet" < kictanet@lists.kictanet.or.ke> wrote:

...

Listers,

Hmm...I don't know why I get the feeling this is a case of throwing mud at the wall to see if it will stick.

ISPs have never been held liable for downloading illegal content anywhere in the world. From the get go let us dispense with that. Neither will they be found so in this case.

I remember vividly when Napster came out and also when Kazaa followed....groups went after the sites not the ISPs. To this day, it is piracy sites that even the FBI goes for not the likes of Comcast or AT$T. Data privacy does not allow you to start checking what your customer is downloading or uploading....this is not China and getting into that territory is very dangerous for people's rights.

Let these guys do the hard work and go for the piracy sites or sue NTSA for allowing bhang to be transported on our roads.

lol

Regards,

James

On Thu, Jan 29, 2015 at 2:30 PM, Davis Onsakia via kictanet < kictanet@lists.kictanet.or.ke> wrote:

> Will be an interesting case to keep the eye on. > > What is not in doubt is that the final ruling will set a very > serious > precedent on how to deal with copyright issues when it comes to the > Online > World. > > Best Regards, > Davis M Onsakia > "One doesn't discover new lands without consenting to lose sight of > the > shore for a very long time." > > On 29 January 2015 at 13:46, Bernard Kioko via kictanet < > kictanet@lists.kictanet.or.ke> wrote: > >> Reading from the article it says there is a list. >> On Jan 29, 2015 1:23 PM, "Dennis Kioko" <dmbuvi@gmail.com> wrote: >> >>> Does Kenya have necessary laws, and do the copyright holders have >>> a >>> list of infringing sites? >>> >>> On Thu, 29 Jan 2015 13:04 Bernard Kioko <bkioko@bernsoft.com> >>> wrote: >>> >>>> >>>> http://www.ispreview.co.uk/index.php/2014/11/uk-high-court-forces-big-isps-b... >>>> On Jan 29, 2015 12:51 PM, "Dennis Kioko via kictanet" < >>>> kictanet@lists.kictanet.or.ke> wrote: >>>> >>>>> Interesting case, though I wonder how ISPs allow people to >>>>> allow >>>>> content illegally. Any one with some insight? >>>>> http://www.businessdailyafrica.com/Corporate-News/Music-copyright-owners-ill... >>>>> >>>>>

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KICTANetiquette : Adhere to the same standards of acceptable behaviors online that you follow in real life: respect people's times and bandwidth, share knowledge, don't flame or abuse or personalize, respect privacy, do not spam, do not market your wares or qualifications.

This e-mail and any attachments may contain information that is confidential, legally privileged and protected by law and is intended for the sole use of the named recipient(s). Any unauthorized review, use, or disclosure or distribution is prohibited. Any liability (in negligence or otherwise) arising from any third party acting, or refraining from acting on any information contained in this email is hereby excluded. If you are not the intended recipient, please delete the contents and notify the sender immediately; do not disclose the contents to any other person, use it for any purpose or store or copy the information in any medium. Whilst our e-mails are checked for viruses, we cannot guarantee that this message or any attachment is virus free, does not contain malicious code or is incompatible with your electronic system and the Company does not accept liability in respect of viruses, malicious code or any related problems that you might experience. For further information about us, please contact us at the address indicated below.

Bernsoft Interactive Limited - P O Box 15177-00100 Nairobi - Tel: +254 722 929192 Email: admin@bernsoft.com Web: www.bernsoft.com

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The Kenya ICT Action Network (KICTANet) is a multi-stakeholder platform for people and institutions interested and involved in ICT policy and regulation. The network aims to act as a catalyst for reform in the ICT sector in support of the national aim of ICT enabled growth and development.

KICTANetiquette : Adhere to the same standards of acceptable behaviors online that you follow in real life: respect people's times and bandwidth, share knowledge, don't flame or abuse or personalize, respect privacy, do not spam, do not market your wares or qualifications.

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The Kenya ICT Action Network (KICTANet) is a multi-stakeholder platform for people and institutions interested and involved in ICT policy and regulation. The network aims to act as a catalyst for reform in the ICT sector in support of the national aim of ICT enabled growth and development.

KICTANetiquette : Adhere to the same standards of acceptable behaviors online that you follow in real life: respect people's times and bandwidth, share knowledge, don't flame or abuse or personalize, respect privacy, do not spam, do not market your wares or qualifications.

-- Barrack O. Otieno +254721325277 +254-20-2498789 Skype: barrack.otieno http://www.otienobarrack.me.ke/

Wrong analogy, James. You do not ask NTSA but you apprehend the vehicle owner/driver/The transporter. Try and ferry your Bhang with DHL or even Easy Coach if you know what I mean. You have to declare your goods! Same to

Dennis, Sorry I have been away from internet access. I think it's wrong for you to try and imply that the ISP aspect is all the problems with Music industry or even to insinuate that we imply so. There are many other factors - of which we are also tackling. Eg We have media owners who won't pay for playing music - yet in other countries royalties are paid to these examples of Jayz, Dr Dre , Beyonce that you give. We will also be seeking legal solution to this because we have spent over 7years on the discussion table but nothing. In those same countries, if you download music or movie content from a piracy website, your ISP and or law enforcement sends you a warning and if you continue, they terminate your link. Do you realize that this could be one of the outcomes of the petition? The other models people are giving here from developed countries are supported by the existence of regulation/legislation. Let's not fool each that they just exist. Truth is, these counties have laws that can penalize parties infringing copyright. Those laws are also enforced. There is a difference between a consumer pirating and an organized piracy where someone takes all the songs (illegally), places them on a certain server and earns revenue through data charges or advertisements - then that person hides away in a foreign country. Also, please remember a song is not a property of the artist only (who in most cases is the known as the person singing). There are several parties to each song - the person who wrote the lyrics, the person who sang (artist) the person who made the beats and the person who paid for the production of the song. These parties are all owners of the song and they must be compensated when a song is exploited. We haven't sued the ISPs. We have petitioned for certain steps to be taken. Those steps we expect them to be taken by the Government through the agencies - CAK and Kenya Copyright Board. Before we got to this point, we attempted dialogue and engagement. There is a very clear plan around why we are here and what the intended goal will be. There are also other steps currently ongoing outside these e.g - The ministry of culture has a music policy process currently ongoing- so some of the recommendations here have been shared. - There is an engagement with media owners on broadcast royalties. - There is an artist training being planned by the copyright bodies and Kenya Copyright Board and we support it. - We have engaged with some of the telecommunications providers to provide transparent sales channels for music rights owners where revenue streams straight to artists. I know in the next few days a major announcement will be made in this respect. - We have created some partnerships with media organisations to create music sales channels that respond to consumer needs while ensuring rights owners get their royalties. - I know of several music download (Mdundo, waabeh,tetemesha, safaricom) platforms that enable consumers to access music. - I am aware of an industry initiative for streaming services eg www.mziki.net which will actually pay artist for every song consumer listens - and consumer listens free on their mobile or computer. Innovations will continue to come, but we MUST reduce,if not stop PIRACY. We must also change the perception people have. When one has copyright, it's the same as that person owning a goat or a cow or land. Its their property and they should be able to commercialize it. This is just one step of the many that the Intellactual Property Owners Association will engage in. We didn't just wake up and go to court, a lot of thought, research, consideration and effort was put into the process and we believe any corporate citizen interested in seeing their country musicians earn and grow will be willing to have a solution in place. Regards From: kictanet [mailto:kictanet-bounces+bkioko=bernsoft.com@lists.kictanet.or.ke] On Behalf Of Dennis Kioko via kictanet Sent: Friday, January 30, 2015 2:07 PM To: bkioko@bernsoft.com Subject: Re: [kictanet] Music Copyright Owners sue ISPs for allowing Kenyans to download content illegally Elsewhere, Hiphop Mogul Jay Z has joined Dr. Dre in investing in a music streaming service. http://thenextweb.com/media/2015/01/30/jay-z-getting-music-streaming-busines s-buying-aspiro/ Also, the number of independently produced music acts that are hitting international charts is on the rise. Artists like Kanye West and Beyonce have joined the fray of self produced videos (Beyonce shot the music video of her latest hit herself). This is despite such major acts having access to funding from labels. The Internet is changing the way music is produced and consumed. Much as the copyrights belong to the copyright holders and they have a right to fight people who want to access their music differently, it is important for them to ask themselves what the end game is. Typically, in Kenya and other African countries, we have lacked a substantial mode of music distribution, hence most artists make their money from concerts rather than music sales. It is also interesting to note that music concerts bring in a tidy sum in neighbouring Tanzania, hence they are able to afford major pop acts, which is not possible in Kenya. Uganda also seems to be better off than Kenya, despite us boasting of East Africa's largest economy. Some blame government taxation for the dismal returns of concerts in Kenya. Can we attribute all of this to ISPs and piracy, and is this what we can best do to improve our industry? On Fri Jan 30 2015 at 13:04:48 Barrack Otieno via kictanet <kictanet@lists.kictanet.or.ke> wrote: That is a good analogy David. I think our musicians need to figure out how best to survive in the present ecosystem,at times legalese is not always the best route. Best Regards On 1/30/15, David Makali via kictanet <kictanet@lists.kictanet.or.ke> wrote: those

who want to use the ISP. Vicarious liability... David

This is official mail. If you doubt the content, call back on +254722517540.

...

On Jan 29, 2015, at 3:09 PM, James Mbugua via kictanet <kictanet@lists.kictanet.or.ke> wrote:

Bernard,

I asked you, Can you sue NTSA for allowing Bhang to be transported on our roads?

???

Exactly, how the hell are they supposed to know who is transporting bhang?

In your case, exactly how the hell are ISPs supposed to know you are downloading music illegally?

You guys are just looking for traction here....the people you should talk to are Kenic if they registered them and the owners of the servers where these sites are hosted. ISPs have nothing to do with this.

James

...

On Thu, Jan 29, 2015 at 3:04 PM, Bernard Kioko via kictanet <kictanet@lists.kictanet.or.ke> wrote: At one point many ppl didn't believe mpesa would be possible.. It took intervention from the late minister michuki....

We r country used to being first in many things

...

On Jan 29, 2015 2:59 PM, "Mark Kipyegon via kictanet" <kictanet@lists.kictanet.or.ke> wrote: From a technical standpoint how feasible is it to simply blacklist sites?

Clone sites and proxies exist to circumvent these blocks.

On 29/01/2015 14:48, Bernard Kioko via kictanet wrote:

...

James i posted a link where high court in UK ruled those same sites be blocked by ISPs and that's happening.

What's ur comment on that? On Jan 29, 2015 2:43 PM, "James Mbugua via kictanet" < kictanet@lists.kictanet.or.ke> wrote:

...

Listers,

Hmm...I don't know why I get the feeling this is a case of throwing mud at the wall to see if it will stick.

ISPs have never been held liable for downloading illegal content anywhere in the world. From the get go let us dispense with that. Neither will they be found so in this case.

I remember vividly when Napster came out and also when Kazaa followed....groups went after the sites not the ISPs. To this day, it is piracy sites that even the FBI goes for not the likes of Comcast or AT$T. Data privacy does not allow you to start checking what your customer is downloading or uploading....this is not China and getting into that territory is very dangerous for people's rights.

Let these guys do the hard work and go for the piracy sites or sue NTSA for allowing bhang to be transported on our roads.

lol

Regards,

James

On Thu, Jan 29, 2015 at 2:30 PM, Davis Onsakia via kictanet < kictanet@lists.kictanet.or.ke> wrote:

> Will be an interesting case to keep the eye on. > > What is not in doubt is that the final ruling will set a very > serious > precedent on how to deal with copyright issues when it comes to the > Online > World. > > Best Regards, > Davis M Onsakia > "One doesn't discover new lands without consenting to lose sight of > the > shore for a very long time." > > On 29 January 2015 at 13:46, Bernard Kioko via kictanet < > kictanet@lists.kictanet.or.ke> wrote: > >> Reading from the article it says there is a list. >> On Jan 29, 2015 1:23 PM, "Dennis Kioko" <dmbuvi@gmail.com> wrote: >> >>> Does Kenya have necessary laws, and do the copyright holders have >>> a >>> list of infringing sites? >>> >>> On Thu, 29 Jan 2015 13:04 Bernard Kioko <bkioko@bernsoft.com> >>> wrote: >>> >>>> >>>> http://www.ispreview.co.uk/index.php/2014/11/uk-high-court-forces-big-isps-b lock-56-new-internet-piracy-websites.html >>>> On Jan 29, 2015 12:51 PM, "Dennis Kioko via kictanet" < >>>> kictanet@lists.kictanet.or.ke> wrote: >>>> >>>>> Interesting case, though I wonder how ISPs allow people to >>>>> allow >>>>> content illegally. Any one with some insight? >>>>> http://www.businessdailyafrica.com/Corporate-News/Music-copyright-owners-ill egal-downloads/-/539550/2605386/-/na4mbsz/-/index.html >>>>> >>>>>

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https://lists.kictanet.or.ke/mailman/options/kictanet/bkioko%40bernsoft.com

...

The Kenya ICT Action Network (KICTANet) is a multi-stakeholder platform for people and institutions interested and involved in ICT policy and regulation. The network aims to act as a catalyst for reform in the ICT sector in support of the national aim of ICT enabled growth and development.

KICTANetiquette : Adhere to the same standards of acceptable behaviors online that you follow in real life: respect people's times and bandwidth, share knowledge, don't flame or abuse or personalize,

respect

...

privacy, do not spam, do not market your wares or qualifications.

This e-mail and any attachments may contain information that is confidential, legally privileged and protected by law and is intended for the sole use of the named recipient(s). Any unauthorized review, use, or disclosure or distribution is prohibited. Any liability (in negligence or otherwise) arising from any third party acting, or refraining from acting on any information contained in this email is hereby excluded. If you are not the intended recipient, please delete the contents and notify the sender immediately; do not disclose the contents to any other person, use it for any purpose or store or copy the information in any medium. Whilst our e-mails are checked for viruses, we cannot guarantee that this message or any attachment is virus free, does not contain malicious code or is incompatible with your electronic system and the Company does not accept liability in respect of viruses, malicious code or any related problems that you might experience. For further information about us, please contact us at the address indicated below.

Bernsoft Interactive Limited - P O Box 15177-00100 Nairobi - Tel: +254 722 929192 Email: admin@bernsoft.com Web: www.bernsoft.com

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The Kenya ICT Action Network (KICTANet) is a multi-stakeholder platform for people and institutions interested and involved in ICT policy and regulation. The network aims to act as a catalyst for reform in the ICT sector in support of the national aim of ICT enabled growth and development.

KICTANetiquette : Adhere to the same standards of acceptable behaviors online that you follow in real life: respect people's times and bandwidth, share knowledge, don't flame or abuse or personalize, respect privacy, do not spam, do not market your wares or qualifications.

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The Kenya ICT Action Network (KICTANet) is a multi-stakeholder platform for people and institutions interested and involved in ICT policy and regulation. The network aims to act as a catalyst for reform in the ICT sector in support of the national aim of ICT enabled growth and development.

KICTANetiquette : Adhere to the same standards of acceptable behaviors online that you follow in real life: respect people's times and bandwidth, share knowledge, don't flame or abuse or personalize, respect privacy, do not spam, do not market your wares or qualifications.

-- Barrack O. Otieno +254721325277 +254-20-2498789 Skype: barrack.otieno http://www.otienobarrack.me.ke/ _______________________________________________ kictanet mailing list kictanet@lists.kictanet.or.ke https://lists.kictanet.or.ke/mailman/listinfo/kictanet Unsubscribe or change your options at https://lists.kictanet.or.ke/mailman/options/kictanet/dmbuvi%40gmail.com The Kenya ICT Action Network (KICTANet) is a multi-stakeholder platform for people and institutions interested and involved in ICT policy and regulation. The network aims to act as a catalyst for reform in the ICT sector in support of the national aim of ICT enabled growth and development. KICTANetiquette : Adhere to the same standards of acceptable behaviors online that you follow in real life: respect people's times and bandwidth, share knowledge, don't flame or abuse or personalize, respect privacy, do not spam, do not market your wares or qualifications. -- * ------------------------------ * This e-mail and any attachments may contain information that is confidential, legally privileged and protected by law and is intended for the sole use of the named recipient(s). Any unauthorized review, use, or disclosure or distribution is prohibited. Any liability (in negligence or otherwise) arising from any third party acting, or refraining from acting on any information contained in this email is hereby excluded. If you are not the intended recipient, please delete the contents and notify the sender immediately; do not disclose the contents to any other person, use it for any purpose or store or copy the information in any medium. Whilst our e-mails are checked for viruses, we cannot guarantee that this message or any attachment is virus free, does not contain malicious code or is incompatible with your electronic system and the Company does not accept liability in respect of viruses, malicious code or any related problems that you might experience. For further information about us, please contact us at the address indicated below. Bernsoft Interactive Limited - P O Box 15177-00100 Nairobi - Tel: +254 722 929192 Email: admin@bernsoft.com Web: www.bernsoft.com

Thank you Bernard, Your last email explains a lot thank you for taking the effort to develop a policy environments whose beneficiaries will be future generations. Best Regards On 1/30/15, Bernard Kioko <bkioko@bernsoft.com> wrote:

Barrack,

I agree.

Part of figuring out, requires the steps that have been taken.

Regards

-----Original Message----- From: kictanet [mailto:kictanet-bounces+bkioko=bernsoft.com@lists.kictanet.or.ke] On Behalf Of Barrack Otieno via kictanet Sent: Friday, January 30, 2015 1:04 PM To: bkioko@bernsoft.com Subject: Re: [kictanet] Music Copyright Owners sue ISPs for allowing Kenyans to download content illegally

That is a good analogy David. I think our musicians need to figure out how best to survive in the present ecosystem,at times legalese is not always the best route.

Best Regards

...

Wrong analogy, James. You do not ask NTSA but you apprehend the vehicle owner/driver/The transporter. Try and ferry your Bhang with DHL or even Easy Coach if you know what I mean. You have to declare your goods! Same to those who want to use the ISP. Vicarious liability... David

This is official mail. If you doubt the content, call back on +254722517540.

...

On Jan 29, 2015, at 3:09 PM, James Mbugua via kictanet <kictanet@lists.kictanet.or.ke> wrote:

Bernard,

I asked you, Can you sue NTSA for allowing Bhang to be transported on our roads?

???

Exactly, how the hell are they supposed to know who is transporting bhang?

In your case, exactly how the hell are ISPs supposed to know you are downloading music illegally?

You guys are just looking for traction here....the people you should talk to are Kenic if they registered them and the owners of the servers where these sites are hosted. ISPs have nothing to do with this.

James

...

On Thu, Jan 29, 2015 at 3:04 PM, Bernard Kioko via kictanet <kictanet@lists.kictanet.or.ke> wrote: At one point many ppl didn't believe mpesa would be possible.. It took intervention from the late minister michuki....

We r country used to being first in many things

...

On Jan 29, 2015 2:59 PM, "Mark Kipyegon via kictanet" <kictanet@lists.kictanet.or.ke> wrote: From a technical standpoint how feasible is it to simply blacklist sites?

Clone sites and proxies exist to circumvent these blocks.

On 29/01/2015 14:48, Bernard Kioko via kictanet wrote:

...

James i posted a link where high court in UK ruled those same sites be blocked by ISPs and that's happening.

What's ur comment on that? On Jan 29, 2015 2:43 PM, "James Mbugua via kictanet" < kictanet@lists.kictanet.or.ke> wrote:

> Listers, > > Hmm...I don't know why I get the feeling this is a case of > throwing mud at the wall to see if it will stick. > > ISPs have never been held liable for downloading illegal content > anywhere in the world. From the get go let us dispense with > that. Neither will they be found so in this case. > > I remember vividly when Napster came out and also when Kazaa > followed....groups went after the sites not the ISPs. To this > day, it is piracy sites that even the FBI goes for not the likes > of Comcast or AT$T. > Data privacy does not allow you to start checking what your > customer is downloading or uploading....this is not China and > getting into that territory is very dangerous for people's > rights. > > Let these guys do the hard work and go for the piracy sites or > sue NTSA for allowing bhang to be transported on our roads. > > lol > > Regards, > > James > > > > On Thu, Jan 29, 2015 at 2:30 PM, Davis Onsakia via kictanet < > kictanet@lists.kictanet.or.ke> wrote: > >> Will be an interesting case to keep the eye on. >> >> What is not in doubt is that the final ruling will set a very >> serious precedent on how to deal with copyright issues when it >> comes to the Online World. >> >> Best Regards, >> Davis M Onsakia >> "One doesn't discover new lands without consenting to lose >> sight of the shore for a very long time." >> >> On 29 January 2015 at 13:46, Bernard Kioko via kictanet < >> kictanet@lists.kictanet.or.ke> wrote: >> >>> Reading from the article it says there is a list. >>> On Jan 29, 2015 1:23 PM, "Dennis Kioko" <dmbuvi@gmail.com> wrote: >>> >>>> Does Kenya have necessary laws, and do the copyright holders >>>> have a list of infringing sites? >>>> >>>> On Thu, 29 Jan 2015 13:04 Bernard Kioko <bkioko@bernsoft.com> >>>> wrote: >>>> >>>>> >>>>> http://www.ispreview.co.uk/index.php/2014/11/uk-high-court-f >>>>> orces-big-isps-block-56-new-internet-piracy-websites.html >>>>> On Jan 29, 2015 12:51 PM, "Dennis Kioko via kictanet" < >>>>> kictanet@lists.kictanet.or.ke> wrote: >>>>> >>>>>> Interesting case, though I wonder how ISPs allow people to >>>>>> allow content illegally. Any one with some insight? >>>>>> http://www.businessdailyafrica.com/Corporate-News/Music-cop >>>>>> yright-owners-illegal-downloads/-/539550/2605386/-/na4mbsz/ >>>>>> -/index.html >>>>>> >>>>>>

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The Kenya ICT Action Network (KICTANet) is a multi-stakeholder platform for people and institutions interested and involved in ICT policy and regulation. The network aims to act as a catalyst for reform in the ICT sector in support of the national aim of ICT enabled growth and development.

KICTANetiquette : Adhere to the same standards of acceptable behaviors online that you follow in real life: respect people's times and bandwidth, share knowledge, don't flame or abuse or personalize, respect privacy, do not spam, do not market your wares or qualifications.

This e-mail and any attachments may contain information that is confidential, legally privileged and protected by law and is intended for the sole use of the named recipient(s). Any unauthorized review, use, or disclosure or distribution is prohibited. Any liability (in negligence or otherwise) arising from any third party acting, or refraining from acting on any information contained in this email is hereby excluded. If you are not the intended recipient, please delete the contents and notify the sender immediately; do not disclose the contents to any other person, use it for any purpose or store or copy the information in any medium. Whilst our e-mails are checked for viruses, we cannot guarantee that this message or any attachment is virus free, does not contain malicious code or is incompatible with your electronic system and the Company does not accept liability in respect of viruses, malicious code or any related problems that you might experience. For further information about us,

On 1/30/15, David Makali via kictanet <kictanet@lists.kictanet.or.ke> wrote: please contact us at the address indicated below.

...

...

...

Bernsoft Interactive Limited - P O Box 15177-00100 Nairobi - Tel: +254 722 929192 Email: admin@bernsoft.com Web: www.bernsoft.com

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The Kenya ICT Action Network (KICTANet) is a multi-stakeholder platform for people and institutions interested and involved in ICT policy and regulation. The network aims to act as a catalyst for reform in the ICT sector in support of the national aim of ICT enabled growth and development.

KICTANetiquette : Adhere to the same standards of acceptable behaviors online that you follow in real life: respect people's times and bandwidth, share knowledge, don't flame or abuse or personalize, respect privacy, do not spam, do not market your wares or

qualifications.

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The Kenya ICT Action Network (KICTANet) is a multi-stakeholder platform for people and institutions interested and involved in ICT policy and regulation. The network aims to act as a catalyst for reform in the ICT sector in support of the national aim of ICT enabled growth and development.

KICTANetiquette : Adhere to the same standards of acceptable behaviors online that you follow in real life: respect people's times and bandwidth, share knowledge, don't flame or abuse or personalize, respect privacy, do not spam, do not market your wares or qualifications.

-- Barrack O. Otieno +254721325277 +254-20-2498789 Skype: barrack.otieno http://www.otienobarrack.me.ke/

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The Kenya ICT Action Network (KICTANet) is a multi-stakeholder platform for people and institutions interested and involved in ICT policy and regulation. The network aims to act as a catalyst for reform in the ICT sector in support of the national aim of ICT enabled growth and development.

KICTANetiquette : Adhere to the same standards of acceptable behaviors online that you follow in real life: respect people's times and bandwidth, share knowledge, don't flame or abuse or personalize, respect privacy, do not spam, do not market your wares or qualifications.

--

* ------------------------------ *

This e-mail and any attachments may contain information that is confidential, legally privileged and protected by law and is intended for the sole use of the named recipient(s). Any unauthorized review, use, or disclosure or distribution is prohibited. Any liability (in negligence or otherwise) arising from any third party acting, or refraining from acting on any information contained in this email is hereby excluded. If you are not the intended recipient, please delete the contents and notify the sender immediately; do not disclose the contents to any other person, use it for any purpose or store or copy the information in any medium. Whilst our e-mails are checked for viruses, we cannot guarantee that this message or any attachment is virus free, does not contain malicious code or is incompatible with your electronic system and the Company does not accept liability in respect of viruses, malicious code or any related problems that you might experience. For further information about us, please contact

us at the address indicated below.

Bernsoft Interactive Limited - P O Box 15177-00100 Nairobi - Tel: +254 722 929192 Email: admin@bernsoft.com Web: www.bernsoft.com

-- Barrack O. Otieno +254721325277 +254-20-2498789 Skype: barrack.otieno http://www.otienobarrack.me.ke/

Jambo, Very interesting discussions on the this subject. We had alluded to some of these challenges and made recommendations in a study on intermediary liability in Kenya. The report is available here: https://www.apc.org/en/system/files/Intermediary_Liability_in_Kenya.pdf I am glad to hear that these issues are finally coming to public debate and more so, before a court, since, and unfortunately so, the bodies responsible as stated above, haven't been able to propose amendments to the law that would address the concerns of right holders. I hope the court will clarify the position in Kenya regarding these contentious issues. Lastly, I think it is also important to state that copyright should not be used to restrict the enjoyment of the copyrighted material or services (e.g. internet/websites) through which copyrighted material are shared. I like the example of the bhang in a car. The law should also be applied carefully and with sufficient precision to ensure that it only targets the infringers. There are notable and progressive/retrogressive decisions available from India, Germany, UK and the US which would be useful in helping our courts and govt. bodies think through the best options for the country. Victor Victor Kapiyo ==================================================== *"Your attitude, not your aptitude, will determine your altitude" Zig Ziglar* On 30 January 2015 at 16:04, Bernard Kioko via kictanet < kictanet@lists.kictanet.or.ke> wrote:

Thank you Barrack,

Of course I hope this discussion has ignited some people here to consider investing in music industry. If you are interested and want to know how (including how to clear licenses so you can use music legally in your business), do not hesitate to get in touch.

Regards

-----Original Message----- From: Barrack Otieno [mailto:otieno.barrack@gmail.com] Sent: Friday, January 30, 2015 3:41 PM To: Bernard Kioko Cc: KICTAnet ICT Policy Discussions Subject: Re: [kictanet] Music Copyright Owners sue ISPs for allowing Kenyans to download content illegally

Thank you Bernard,

Your last email explains a lot thank you for taking the effort to develop a policy environments whose beneficiaries will be future generations.

Best Regards

...

Barrack,

I agree.

Part of figuring out, requires the steps that have been taken.

Regards

-----Original Message----- From: kictanet [mailto:kictanet-bounces+bkioko=bernsoft.com@lists.kictanet.or.ke] On Behalf Of Barrack Otieno via kictanet Sent: Friday, January 30, 2015 1:04 PM To: bkioko@bernsoft.com Subject: Re: [kictanet] Music Copyright Owners sue ISPs for allowing Kenyans to download content illegally

That is a good analogy David. I think our musicians need to figure out how best to survive in the present ecosystem,at times legalese is not always the best route.

Best Regards

On 1/30/15, David Makali via kictanet <kictanet@lists.kictanet.or.ke> wrote:

...

Wrong analogy, James. You do not ask NTSA but you apprehend the vehicle owner/driver/The transporter. Try and ferry your Bhang with DHL or even Easy Coach if you know what I mean. You have to declare your goods! Same to those who want to use the ISP. Vicarious

...

...

David

This is official mail. If you doubt the content, call back on +254722517540.

...

On Jan 29, 2015, at 3:09 PM, James Mbugua via kictanet <kictanet@lists.kictanet.or.ke> wrote:

Bernard,

I asked you, Can you sue NTSA for allowing Bhang to be transported on our roads?

???

Exactly, how the hell are they supposed to know who is transporting bhang?

In your case, exactly how the hell are ISPs supposed to know you are downloading music illegally?

You guys are just looking for traction here....the people you should talk to are Kenic if they registered them and the owners of the servers where these sites are hosted. ISPs have nothing to do with

On 1/30/15, Bernard Kioko <bkioko@bernsoft.com> wrote: liability... this.

...

...

...

James

...

On Thu, Jan 29, 2015 at 3:04 PM, Bernard Kioko via kictanet <kictanet@lists.kictanet.or.ke> wrote: At one point many ppl didn't believe mpesa would be possible.. It took intervention from the late minister michuki....

We r country used to being first in many things

...

On Jan 29, 2015 2:59 PM, "Mark Kipyegon via kictanet" <kictanet@lists.kictanet.or.ke> wrote: From a technical standpoint how feasible is it to simply blacklist sites?

Clone sites and proxies exist to circumvent these blocks.

On 29/01/2015 14:48, Bernard Kioko via kictanet wrote: > James i posted a link where high court in UK ruled those same > sites be blocked by ISPs and that's happening. > > What's ur comment on that? > On Jan 29, 2015 2:43 PM, "James Mbugua via kictanet" < > kictanet@lists.kictanet.or.ke> wrote: > >> Listers, >> >> Hmm...I don't know why I get the feeling this is a case of >> throwing mud at the wall to see if it will stick. >> >> ISPs have never been held liable for downloading illegal >> content anywhere in the world. From the get go let us dispense >> with that. Neither will they be found so in this case. >> >> I remember vividly when Napster came out and also when Kazaa >> followed....groups went after the sites not the ISPs. To this >> day, it is piracy sites that even the FBI goes for not the >> likes of Comcast or AT$T. >> Data privacy does not allow you to start checking what your >> customer is downloading or uploading....this is not China and >> getting into that territory is very dangerous for people's >> rights. >> >> Let these guys do the hard work and go for the piracy sites or >> sue NTSA for allowing bhang to be transported on our roads. >> >> lol >> >> Regards, >> >> James >> >> >> >> On Thu, Jan 29, 2015 at 2:30 PM, Davis Onsakia via kictanet < >> kictanet@lists.kictanet.or.ke> wrote: >> >>> Will be an interesting case to keep the eye on. >>> >>> What is not in doubt is that the final ruling will set a very >>> serious precedent on how to deal with copyright issues when it >>> comes to the Online World. >>> >>> Best Regards, >>> Davis M Onsakia >>> "One doesn't discover new lands without consenting to lose >>> sight of the shore for a very long time." >>> >>> On 29 January 2015 at 13:46, Bernard Kioko via kictanet < >>> kictanet@lists.kictanet.or.ke> wrote: >>> >>>> Reading from the article it says there is a list. >>>> On Jan 29, 2015 1:23 PM, "Dennis Kioko" <dmbuvi@gmail.com>

...

...

...

>>>> >>>>> Does Kenya have necessary laws, and do the copyright holders >>>>> have a list of infringing sites? >>>>> >>>>> On Thu, 29 Jan 2015 13:04 Bernard Kioko >>>>> <bkioko@bernsoft.com> >>>>> wrote: >>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> http://www.ispreview.co.uk/index.php/2014/11/uk-high-court- >>>>>> f orces-big-isps-block-56-new-internet-piracy-websites.html >>>>>> On Jan 29, 2015 12:51 PM, "Dennis Kioko via kictanet" < >>>>>> kictanet@lists.kictanet.or.ke> wrote: >>>>>> >>>>>>> Interesting case, though I wonder how ISPs allow people to >>>>>>> allow content illegally. Any one with some insight? >>>>>>> http://www.businessdailyafrica.com/Corporate-News/Music-co >>>>>>> p >>>>>>> yright-owners-illegal-downloads/-/539550/2605386/-/na4mbsz >>>>>>> / >>>>>>> -/index.html >>>>>>> >>>>>>>

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The Kenya ICT Action Network (KICTANet) is a multi-stakeholder platform for people and institutions interested and involved in ICT policy and regulation. The network aims to act as a catalyst for reform in the ICT sector in support of the national aim of ICT enabled growth and development.

KICTANetiquette : Adhere to the same standards of acceptable behaviors online that you follow in real life: respect people's times and bandwidth, share knowledge, don't flame or abuse or personalize, respect privacy, do not spam, do not market your wares or qualifications.

This e-mail and any attachments may contain information that is confidential, legally privileged and protected by law and is intended for the sole use of the named recipient(s). Any unauthorized review, use, or disclosure or distribution is prohibited. Any liability (in negligence or otherwise) arising from any third party acting, or refraining from acting on any information contained in this email is hereby excluded. If you are not the intended recipient, please delete the contents and notify the sender immediately; do not disclose the contents to any other person, use it for any purpose or store or copy the information in any medium. Whilst our e-mails are checked for viruses, we cannot guarantee that this message or any attachment is virus free, does not contain malicious code or is incompatible with your electronic system and the Company does not accept liability in respect of viruses, malicious code or any related problems that you might experience. For further information about us,

wrote: please contact us at the address indicated below.

...

...

Bernsoft Interactive Limited - P O Box 15177-00100 Nairobi - Tel: +254 722 929192 Email: admin@bernsoft.com Web: www.bernsoft.com

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The Kenya ICT Action Network (KICTANet) is a multi-stakeholder platform for people and institutions interested and involved in ICT policy and regulation. The network aims to act as a catalyst for reform in the ICT sector in support of the national aim of ICT enabled growth and development.

KICTANetiquette : Adhere to the same standards of acceptable behaviors online that you follow in real life: respect people's times and bandwidth, share knowledge, don't flame or abuse or personalize, respect privacy, do not spam, do not market your wares or

qualifications.

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The Kenya ICT Action Network (KICTANet) is a multi-stakeholder platform for people and institutions interested and involved in ICT policy and regulation. The network aims to act as a catalyst for reform in the ICT sector in support of the national aim of ICT enabled growth and development.

KICTANetiquette : Adhere to the same standards of acceptable behaviors online that you follow in real life: respect people's times and bandwidth, share knowledge, don't flame or abuse or personalize, respect privacy, do not spam, do not market your wares or qualifications.

-- Barrack O. Otieno +254721325277 +254-20-2498789 Skype: barrack.otieno http://www.otienobarrack.me.ke/

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The Kenya ICT Action Network (KICTANet) is a multi-stakeholder platform for people and institutions interested and involved in ICT policy and regulation. The network aims to act as a catalyst for reform in the ICT sector in support of the national aim of ICT enabled growth and development.

KICTANetiquette : Adhere to the same standards of acceptable behaviors online that you follow in real life: respect people's times and bandwidth, share knowledge, don't flame or abuse or personalize, respect privacy, do not spam, do not market your wares or qualifications.

--

* ------------------------------ *

This e-mail and any attachments may contain information that is confidential, legally privileged and protected by law and is intended for the sole use of the named recipient(s). Any unauthorized review, use, or disclosure or distribution is prohibited. Any liability (in negligence or otherwise) arising from any third party acting, or refraining from acting on any information contained in this email is hereby excluded. If you are not the intended recipient, please delete the contents and notify the sender immediately; do not disclose the contents to any other person, use it for any purpose or store or copy the information in any medium. Whilst our e-mails are checked for viruses, we cannot guarantee that this message or any attachment is virus free, does not contain malicious code or is incompatible with your electronic system and the Company does not accept liability in respect of viruses, malicious code or any related problems that you might experience. For further information about us, please contact

us at the address indicated below.

Bernsoft Interactive Limited - P O Box 15177-00100 Nairobi - Tel: +254 722 929192 Email: admin@bernsoft.com Web: www.bernsoft.com

-- Barrack O. Otieno +254721325277 +254-20-2498789 Skype: barrack.otieno http://www.otienobarrack.me.ke/

--

* ------------------------------ *

This e-mail and any attachments may contain information that is confidential, legally privileged and protected by law and is intended for the sole use of the named recipient(s). Any unauthorized review, use, or disclosure or distribution is prohibited. Any liability (in negligence or otherwise) arising from any third party acting, or refraining from acting on any information contained in this email is hereby excluded. If you are not the intended recipient, please delete the contents and notify the sender immediately; do not disclose the contents to any other person, use it for any purpose or store or copy the information in any medium. Whilst our e-mails are checked for viruses, we cannot guarantee that this message or any attachment is virus free, does not contain malicious code or is incompatible with your electronic system and the Company does not accept liability in respect of viruses, malicious code or any related problems that you might experience. For further information about us, please contact us at the address indicated below.

Bernsoft Interactive Limited - P O Box 15177-00100 Nairobi - Tel: +254 722 929192 Email: admin@bernsoft.com Web: www.bernsoft.com

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The Kenya ICT Action Network (KICTANet) is a multi-stakeholder platform for people and institutions interested and involved in ICT policy and regulation. The network aims to act as a catalyst for reform in the ICT sector in support of the national aim of ICT enabled growth and development.

KICTANetiquette : Adhere to the same standards of acceptable behaviors online that you follow in real life: respect people's times and bandwidth, share knowledge, don't flame or abuse or personalize, respect privacy, do not spam, do not market your wares or qualifications.

Victor, I have quickly read through your research. Thanks for sharing. Very informative. I will seek you soon to see how the Intellectual Property Owners Association can help on some of the proposals in there. Regards From: Victor Kapiyo [mailto:vkapiyo@gmail.com] Sent: Friday, January 30, 2015 5:02 PM To: Bernard Kioko; KICTAnet ICT Policy Discussions Subject: Re: [kictanet] Music Copyright Owners sue ISPs for allowing Kenyans to download content illegally Jambo, Very interesting discussions on the this subject. We had alluded to some of these challenges and made recommendations in a study on intermediary liability in Kenya. The report is available here: https://www.apc.org/en/system/files/Intermediary_Liability_in_Kenya.pdf I am glad to hear that these issues are finally coming to public debate and more so, before a court, since, and unfortunately so, the bodies responsible as stated above, haven't been able to propose amendments to the law that would address the concerns of right holders. I hope the court will clarify the position in Kenya regarding these contentious issues. Lastly, I think it is also important to state that copyright should not be used to restrict the enjoyment of the copyrighted material or services (e.g. internet/websites) through which copyrighted material are shared. I like the example of the bhang in a car. The law should also be applied carefully and with sufficient precision to ensure that it only targets the infringers. There are notable and progressive/retrogressive decisions available from India, Germany, UK and the US which would be useful in helping our courts and govt. bodies think through the best options for the country. Victor Victor Kapiyo ==================================================== "Your attitude, not your aptitude, will determine your altitude" Zig Ziglar On 30 January 2015 at 16:04, Bernard Kioko via kictanet <kictanet@lists.kictanet.or.ke> wrote: Thank you Barrack, Of course I hope this discussion has ignited some people here to consider investing in music industry. If you are interested and want to know how (including how to clear licenses so you can use music legally in your business), do not hesitate to get in touch. Regards -----Original Message----- From: Barrack Otieno [mailto:otieno.barrack@gmail.com] Sent: Friday, January 30, 2015 3:41 PM To: Bernard Kioko Cc: KICTAnet ICT Policy Discussions Subject: Re: [kictanet] Music Copyright Owners sue ISPs for allowing Kenyans to download content illegally Thank you Bernard, Your last email explains a lot thank you for taking the effort to develop a policy environments whose beneficiaries will be future generations. Best Regards On 1/30/15, Bernard Kioko <bkioko@bernsoft.com> wrote:

Barrack,

I agree.

Part of figuring out, requires the steps that have been taken.

Regards

-----Original Message----- From: kictanet [mailto:kictanet-bounces+bkioko <mailto:kictanet-bounces%2Bbkioko> =bernsoft.com@lists.kictanet.or.ke] On Behalf Of Barrack Otieno via kictanet Sent: Friday, January 30, 2015 1:04 PM To: bkioko@bernsoft.com Subject: Re: [kictanet] Music Copyright Owners sue ISPs for allowing Kenyans to download content illegally

That is a good analogy David. I think our musicians need to figure out how best to survive in the present ecosystem,at times legalese is not always the best route.

Best Regards

On 1/30/15, David Makali via kictanet <kictanet@lists.kictanet.or.ke> wrote:

...

Wrong analogy, James. You do not ask NTSA but you apprehend the vehicle owner/driver/The transporter. Try and ferry your Bhang with DHL or even Easy Coach if you know what I mean. You have to declare your goods! Same to those who want to use the ISP. Vicarious liability... David

This is official mail. If you doubt the content, call back on +254722517540.

...

On Jan 29, 2015, at 3:09 PM, James Mbugua via kictanet <kictanet@lists.kictanet.or.ke> wrote:

Bernard,

I asked you, Can you sue NTSA for allowing Bhang to be transported on our roads?

???

Exactly, how the hell are they supposed to know who is transporting bhang?

In your case, exactly how the hell are ISPs supposed to know you are downloading music illegally?

You guys are just looking for traction here....the people you should talk to are Kenic if they registered them and the owners of the servers where these sites are hosted. ISPs have nothing to do with this.

James

...

On Thu, Jan 29, 2015 at 3:04 PM, Bernard Kioko via kictanet <kictanet@lists.kictanet.or.ke> wrote: At one point many ppl didn't believe mpesa would be possible.. It took intervention from the late minister michuki....

We r country used to being first in many things

...

On Jan 29, 2015 2:59 PM, "Mark Kipyegon via kictanet" <kictanet@lists.kictanet.or.ke> wrote: From a technical standpoint how feasible is it to simply blacklist sites?

Clone sites and proxies exist to circumvent these blocks.

On 29/01/2015 14:48, Bernard Kioko via kictanet wrote:

...

James i posted a link where high court in UK ruled those same sites be blocked by ISPs and that's happening.

What's ur comment on that? On Jan 29, 2015 2:43 PM, "James Mbugua via kictanet" < kictanet@lists.kictanet.or.ke> wrote:

> Listers, > > Hmm...I don't know why I get the feeling this is a case of > throwing mud at the wall to see if it will stick. > > ISPs have never been held liable for downloading illegal > content anywhere in the world. From the get go let us dispense > with that. Neither will they be found so in this case. > > I remember vividly when Napster came out and also when Kazaa > followed....groups went after the sites not the ISPs. To this > day, it is piracy sites that even the FBI goes for not the > likes of Comcast or AT$T. > Data privacy does not allow you to start checking what your > customer is downloading or uploading....this is not China and > getting into that territory is very dangerous for people's > rights. > > Let these guys do the hard work and go for the piracy sites or > sue NTSA for allowing bhang to be transported on our roads. > > lol > > Regards, > > James > > > > On Thu, Jan 29, 2015 at 2:30 PM, Davis Onsakia via kictanet < > kictanet@lists.kictanet.or.ke> wrote: > >> Will be an interesting case to keep the eye on. >> >> What is not in doubt is that the final ruling will set a very >> serious precedent on how to deal with copyright issues when it >> comes to the Online World. >> >> Best Regards, >> Davis M Onsakia >> "One doesn't discover new lands without consenting to lose >> sight of the shore for a very long time." >> >> On 29 January 2015 at 13:46, Bernard Kioko via kictanet < >> kictanet@lists.kictanet.or.ke> wrote: >> >>> Reading from the article it says there is a list. >>> On Jan 29, 2015 1:23 PM, "Dennis Kioko" <dmbuvi@gmail.com> wrote: >>> >>>> Does Kenya have necessary laws, and do the copyright holders >>>> have a list of infringing sites? >>>> >>>> On Thu, 29 Jan 2015 13:04 Bernard Kioko >>>> <bkioko@bernsoft.com> >>>> wrote: >>>> >>>>> >>>>> http://www.ispreview.co.uk/index.php/2014/11/uk-high-court-

...

...

...

...

...

>>>>> f orces-big-isps-block-56-new-internet-piracy-websites.html

...

...

...

...

...

>>>>> On Jan 29, 2015 12:51 PM, "Dennis Kioko via kictanet" < >>>>> kictanet@lists.kictanet.or.ke> wrote: >>>>> >>>>>> Interesting case, though I wonder how ISPs allow people to >>>>>> allow content illegally. Any one with some insight? >>>>>> http://www.businessdailyafrica.com/Corporate-News/Music-co >>>>>> p >>>>>> yright-owners-illegal-downloads/-/539550/2605386/-/na4mbsz >>>>>> / >>>>>> -/index.html >>>>>> >>>>>>

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KICTANetiquette : Adhere to the same standards of acceptable behaviors online that you follow in real life: respect people's times and bandwidth, share knowledge, don't flame or abuse or personalize, respect privacy, do not spam, do not market your wares or qualifications.

This e-mail and any attachments may contain information that is confidential, legally privileged and protected by law and is intended for the sole use of the named recipient(s). Any unauthorized review, use, or disclosure or distribution is prohibited. Any liability (in negligence or otherwise) arising from any third party acting, or refraining from acting on any information contained in this email is hereby excluded. If you are not the intended recipient, please delete the contents and notify the sender immediately; do not disclose the contents to any other person, use it for any purpose or store or copy the information in any medium. Whilst our e-mails are checked for viruses, we cannot guarantee that this message or any attachment is virus free, does not contain malicious code or is incompatible with your electronic system and the Company does not accept liability in respect of viruses, malicious code or any related problems that you might experience. For further information about us, please contact us at the address indicated below.

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KICTANetiquette : Adhere to the same standards of acceptable behaviors online that you follow in real life: respect people's times and bandwidth, share knowledge, don't flame or abuse or personalize, respect privacy, do not spam, do not market your wares or qualifications.

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The Kenya ICT Action Network (KICTANet) is a multi-stakeholder platform for people and institutions interested and involved in ICT policy and regulation. The network aims to act as a catalyst for reform in the ICT sector in support of the national aim of ICT enabled growth and development.

KICTANetiquette : Adhere to the same standards of acceptable behaviors online that you follow in real life: respect people's times and bandwidth, share knowledge, don't flame or abuse or personalize, respect privacy, do not spam, do not market your wares or qualifications.

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The Kenya ICT Action Network (KICTANet) is a multi-stakeholder platform for people and institutions interested and involved in ICT policy and regulation. The network aims to act as a catalyst for reform in the ICT sector in support of the national aim of ICT enabled growth and development.

KICTANetiquette : Adhere to the same standards of acceptable behaviors online that you follow in real life: respect people's times and bandwidth, share knowledge, don't flame or abuse or personalize, respect privacy, do not spam, do not market your wares or qualifications.

--

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This e-mail and any attachments may contain information that is confidential, legally privileged and protected by law and is intended for the sole use of the named recipient(s). Any unauthorized review, use, or disclosure or distribution is prohibited. Any liability (in negligence or otherwise) arising from any third party acting, or refraining from acting on any information contained in this email is hereby excluded. If you are not the intended recipient, please delete the contents and notify the sender immediately; do not disclose the contents to any other person, use it for any purpose or store or copy the information in any medium. Whilst our e-mails are checked for viruses, we cannot guarantee that this message or any attachment is virus free, does not contain malicious code or is incompatible with your electronic system and the Company does not accept liability in respect of viruses, malicious code or any related problems that you might experience. For further information about us, please contact

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-- Barrack O. Otieno +254721325277 +254-20-2498789 Skype: barrack.otieno http://www.otienobarrack.me.ke/ -- * ------------------------------ * This e-mail and any attachments may contain information that is confidential, legally privileged and protected by law and is intended for the sole use of the named recipient(s). Any unauthorized review, use, or disclosure or distribution is prohibited. Any liability (in negligence or otherwise) arising from any third party acting, or refraining from acting on any information contained in this email is hereby excluded. If you are not the intended recipient, please delete the contents and notify the sender immediately; do not disclose the contents to any other person, use it for any purpose or store or copy the information in any medium. Whilst our e-mails are checked for viruses, we cannot guarantee that this message or any attachment is virus free, does not contain malicious code or is incompatible with your electronic system and the Company does not accept liability in respect of viruses, malicious code or any related problems that you might experience. For further information about us, please contact us at the address indicated below. Bernsoft Interactive Limited - P O Box 15177-00100 Nairobi - Tel: +254 722 929192 Email: admin@bernsoft.com Web: www.bernsoft.com _______________________________________________ kictanet mailing list kictanet@lists.kictanet.or.ke https://lists.kictanet.or.ke/mailman/listinfo/kictanet Unsubscribe or change your options at https://lists.kictanet.or.ke/mailman/options/kictanet/vkapiyo%40gmail.com The Kenya ICT Action Network (KICTANet) is a multi-stakeholder platform for people and institutions interested and involved in ICT policy and regulation. The network aims to act as a catalyst for reform in the ICT sector in support of the national aim of ICT enabled growth and development. KICTANetiquette : Adhere to the same standards of acceptable behaviors online that you follow in real life: respect people's times and bandwidth, share knowledge, don't flame or abuse or personalize, respect privacy, do not spam, do not market your wares or qualifications. -- * ------------------------------ * This e-mail and any attachments may contain information that is confidential, legally privileged and protected by law and is intended for the sole use of the named recipient(s). Any unauthorized review, use, or disclosure or distribution is prohibited. Any liability (in negligence or otherwise) arising from any third party acting, or refraining from acting on any information contained in this email is hereby excluded. If you are not the intended recipient, please delete the contents and notify the sender immediately; do not disclose the contents to any other person, use it for any purpose or store or copy the information in any medium. Whilst our e-mails are checked for viruses, we cannot guarantee that this message or any attachment is virus free, does not contain malicious code or is incompatible with your electronic system and the Company does not accept liability in respect of viruses, malicious code or any related problems that you might experience. For further information about us, please contact us at the address indicated below. Bernsoft Interactive Limited - P O Box 15177-00100 Nairobi - Tel: +254 722 929192 Email: admin@bernsoft.com Web: www.bernsoft.com

We have no "precedence" in Kenya on any intermediary liability case. It's a good move for the copyright owners to have this case brought forward and see what direction as a country we should take. This might spur players in the industry to bring legislation to parliament on the same. What has worked very effectively elsewhere was The Digital Millennium Copyright Act (DMCA), a United States copyright law that implements two 1996 treaties of the World Intellectual Property Organization (WIPO). This essentially entails copyright owners policing online content and issuing takedown notices. When you Google content that has takedown notices, you get this response: *In response to a complaint we received under the US Digital Millennium Copyright Act <https://www.google.com/support/bin/answer.py?answer=1386831>, we have removed 1 result(s) from this page. If you wish, you may read the DMCA complaint <http://www.chillingeffects.org/notice.cgi?sID=10204135> that caused the removal(s) atChillingEffects.org.* *In response to a complaint we received under the US Digital Millennium Copyright Act <https://www.google.com/support/bin/answer.py?answer=1386831>, we have removed 1 result(s) from this page. If you wish, you may read the DMCA complaint <http://www.chillingeffects.org/notice.cgi?sID=10246859> that caused the removal(s) atChillingEffects.org.* *In response to a complaint we received under the US Digital Millennium Copyright Act <https://www.google.com/support/bin/answer.py?answer=1386831>, we have removed 1 result(s) from this page. If you wish, you may read the DMCA complaint <http://www.chillingeffects.org/notice.cgi?sID=10261005> that caused the removal(s) atChillingEffects.org.* ______________________ Mwendwa Kivuva, Nairobi, Kenya "There are some men who lift the age they inhabit, till all men walk on higher ground in that lifetime." - Maxwell Anderson On 29 January 2015 at 14:57, Mark Kipyegon via kictanet < kictanet@lists.kictanet.or.ke> wrote:

From a technical standpoint how feasible is it to simply blacklist sites?

Clone sites and proxies exist to circumvent these blocks.

...

James i posted a link where high court in UK ruled those same sites be blocked by ISPs and that's happening.

What's ur comment on that? On Jan 29, 2015 2:43 PM, "James Mbugua via kictanet" < kictanet@lists.kictanet.or.ke> wrote:

...

Listers,

Hmm...I don't know why I get the feeling this is a case of throwing mud at the wall to see if it will stick.

ISPs have never been held liable for downloading illegal content anywhere in the world. From the get go let us dispense with that. Neither will

On 29/01/2015 14:48, Bernard Kioko via kictanet wrote: they

...

...

be found so in this case.

I remember vividly when Napster came out and also when Kazaa followed....groups went after the sites not the ISPs. To this day, it is piracy sites that even the FBI goes for not the likes of Comcast or AT$T. Data privacy does not allow you to start checking what your customer is downloading or uploading....this is not China and getting into that territory is very dangerous for people's rights.

Let these guys do the hard work and go for the piracy sites or sue NTSA for allowing bhang to be transported on our roads.

lol

Regards,

James

On Thu, Jan 29, 2015 at 2:30 PM, Davis Onsakia via kictanet < kictanet@lists.kictanet.or.ke> wrote:

...

Will be an interesting case to keep the eye on.

What is not in doubt is that the final ruling will set a very serious precedent on how to deal with copyright issues when it comes to the Online World.

Best Regards, Davis M Onsakia "One doesn't discover new lands without consenting to lose sight of the shore for a very long time."

On 29 January 2015 at 13:46, Bernard Kioko via kictanet < kictanet@lists.kictanet.or.ke> wrote:

...

Reading from the article it says there is a list. On Jan 29, 2015 1:23 PM, "Dennis Kioko" <dmbuvi@gmail.com> wrote:

...

Does Kenya have necessary laws, and do the copyright holders have a list of infringing sites?

On Thu, 29 Jan 2015 13:04 Bernard Kioko <bkioko@bernsoft.com> wrote:

> > http://www.ispreview.co.uk/index.php/2014/11/uk-high-court-forces-big-isps-b... > On Jan 29, 2015 12:51 PM, "Dennis Kioko via kictanet" < > kictanet@lists.kictanet.or.ke> wrote: > >> Interesting case, though I wonder how ISPs allow people to allow >> content illegally. Any one with some insight? >> http://www.businessdailyafrica.com/Corporate-News/Music-copyright-owners-ill... >> >>

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The Kenya ICT Action Network (KICTANet) is a multi-stakeholder platform for people and institutions interested and involved in ICT policy and regulation. The network aims to act as a catalyst for reform in the ICT sector in support of the national aim of ICT enabled growth and development.

KICTANetiquette : Adhere to the same standards of acceptable behaviors online that you follow in real life: respect people's times and bandwidth, share knowledge, don't flame or abuse or personalize, respect privacy, do not spam, do not market your wares or qualifications.

Thank you David! From: kictanet [mailto:kictanet-bounces+bkioko=bernsoft.com@lists.kictanet.or.ke] On Behalf Of David Makali via kictanet Sent: Thursday, January 29, 2015 4:38 PM To: bkioko@bernsoft.com Subject: Re: [kictanet] Music Copyright Owners sue ISPs for allowing Kenyans to download content illegally If it's possible for Waiguru to sue google for defamation, and it's possible for twitter to remove your account if you post xxrated msgs, why is it not possible to hold ISPs that host those who fleece us (and by extension benefit from the fees) as well? Especially if they are declared download sites that don't have licence? YouTube removes any content whose copyright is not declared... Very welcome action. This is official mail. If you doubt the content, call back on +254722517540. On Jan 29, 2015, at 3:29 PM, Mwendwa Kivuva via kictanet <kictanet@lists.kictanet.or.ke> wrote: We have no "precedence" in Kenya on any intermediary liability case. It's a good move for the copyright owners to have this case brought forward and see what direction as a country we should take. This might spur players in the industry to bring legislation to parliament on the same. What has worked very effectively elsewhere was The Digital Millennium Copyright Act (DMCA), a United States copyright law that implements two 1996 treaties of the World Intellectual Property Organization (WIPO). This essentially entails copyright owners policing online content and issuing takedown notices. When you Google content that has takedown notices, you get this response: In response to a complaint we received under the <https://www.google.com/support/bin/answer.py?answer=1386831> US Digital Millennium Copyright Act, we have removed 1 result(s) from this page. If you wish, you may <http://www.chillingeffects.org/notice.cgi?sID=10204135> read the DMCA complaint that caused the removal(s) atChillingEffects.org. In response to a complaint we received under the <https://www.google.com/support/bin/answer.py?answer=1386831> US Digital Millennium Copyright Act, we have removed 1 result(s) from this page. If you wish, you may <http://www.chillingeffects.org/notice.cgi?sID=10246859> read the DMCA complaint that caused the removal(s) atChillingEffects.org. In response to a complaint we received under the <https://www.google.com/support/bin/answer.py?answer=1386831> US Digital Millennium Copyright Act, we have removed 1 result(s) from this page. If you wish, you may <http://www.chillingeffects.org/notice.cgi?sID=10261005> read the DMCA complaint that caused the removal(s) atChillingEffects.org. ______________________ Mwendwa Kivuva, Nairobi, Kenya "There are some men who lift the age they inhabit, till all men walk on higher ground in that lifetime." - Maxwell Anderson On 29 January 2015 at 14:57, Mark Kipyegon via kictanet <kictanet@lists.kictanet.or.ke> wrote:

From a technical standpoint how feasible is it to simply blacklist sites?

Clone sites and proxies exist to circumvent these blocks. On 29/01/2015 14:48, Bernard Kioko via kictanet wrote:

James i posted a link where high court in UK ruled those same sites be blocked by ISPs and that's happening.

What's ur comment on that? On Jan 29, 2015 2:43 PM, "James Mbugua via kictanet" < kictanet@lists.kictanet.or.ke> wrote:

...

Listers,

Hmm...I don't know why I get the feeling this is a case of throwing mud at the wall to see if it will stick.

ISPs have never been held liable for downloading illegal content anywhere in the world. From the get go let us dispense with that. Neither will they be found so in this case.

I remember vividly when Napster came out and also when Kazaa followed....groups went after the sites not the ISPs. To this day, it is piracy sites that even the FBI goes for not the likes of Comcast or AT$T. Data privacy does not allow you to start checking what your customer is downloading or uploading....this is not China and getting into that territory is very dangerous for people's rights.

Let these guys do the hard work and go for the piracy sites or sue NTSA for allowing bhang to be transported on our roads.

lol

Regards,

James

...

On Thu, Jan 29, 2015 at 2:30 PM, Davis Onsakia via kictanet < kictanet@lists.kictanet.or.ke> wrote:

...

Will be an interesting case to keep the eye on.

What is not in doubt is that the final ruling will set a very serious precedent on how to deal with copyright issues when it comes to the Online World.

Best Regards, Davis M Onsakia "One doesn't discover new lands without consenting to lose sight of the shore for a very long time."

On 29 January 2015 at 13:46, Bernard Kioko via kictanet < kictanet@lists.kictanet.or.ke> wrote:

...

Reading from the article it says there is a list. On Jan 29, 2015 1:23 PM, "Dennis Kioko" <dmbuvi@gmail.com> wrote:

...

Does Kenya have necessary laws, and do the copyright holders have a list of infringing sites?

On Thu, 29 Jan 2015 13:04 Bernard Kioko <bkioko@bernsoft.com> wrote:

...

http://www.ispreview.co.uk/index.php/2014/11/uk-high-court-forces-big-isps-b... On Jan 29, 2015 12:51 PM, "Dennis Kioko via kictanet" < kictanet@lists.kictanet.or.ke> wrote:

> Interesting case, though I wonder how ISPs allow people to allow > content illegally. Any one with some insight? > http://www.businessdailyafrica.com/Corporate-News/Music-copyright-owners-ill... > >

_______________________________________________ kictanet mailing list kictanet@lists.kictanet.or.ke https://lists.kictanet.or.ke/mailman/listinfo/kictanet Unsubscribe or change your options at https://lists.kictanet.or.ke/mailman/options/kictanet/kivuva%40transworldafr... The Kenya ICT Action Network (KICTANet) is a multi-stakeholder platform for people and institutions interested and involved in ICT policy and regulation. The network aims to act as a catalyst for reform in the ICT sector in support of the national aim of ICT enabled growth and development. KICTANetiquette : Adhere to the same standards of acceptable behaviors online that you follow in real life: respect people's times and bandwidth, share knowledge, don't flame or abuse or personalize, respect privacy, do not spam, do not market your wares or qualifications. _______________________________________________ kictanet mailing list kictanet@lists.kictanet.or.ke https://lists.kictanet.or.ke/mailman/listinfo/kictanet Unsubscribe or change your options at https://lists.kictanet.or.ke/mailman/options/kictanet/dmakali%40yahoo.com The Kenya ICT Action Network (KICTANet) is a multi-stakeholder platform for people and institutions interested and involved in ICT policy and regulation. The network aims to act as a catalyst for reform in the ICT sector in support of the national aim of ICT enabled growth and development. KICTANetiquette : Adhere to the same standards of acceptable behaviors online that you follow in real life: respect people's times and bandwidth, share knowledge, don't flame or abuse or personalize, respect privacy, do not spam, do not market your wares or qualifications. -- * ------------------------------ * This e-mail and any attachments may contain information that is confidential, legally privileged and protected by law and is intended for the sole use of the named recipient(s). Any unauthorized review, use, or disclosure or distribution is prohibited. Any liability (in negligence or otherwise) arising from any third party acting, or refraining from acting on any information contained in this email is hereby excluded. If you are not the intended recipient, please delete the contents and notify the sender immediately; do not disclose the contents to any other person, use it for any purpose or store or copy the information in any medium. Whilst our e-mails are checked for viruses, we cannot guarantee that this message or any attachment is virus free, does not contain malicious code or is incompatible with your electronic system and the Company does not accept liability in respect of viruses, malicious code or any related problems that you might experience. For further information about us, please contact us at the address indicated below. Bernsoft Interactive Limited - P O Box 15177-00100 Nairobi - Tel: +254 722 929192 Email: admin@bernsoft.com Web: www.bernsoft.com

As a creator of original works is good that you are taking steps to protecting it and the allied benefeciaries of the same. I agree with @cdohnio on a need to rethink the business model because it is more of a hurdle than an incentive. I once tried to look for Hardstone's Uhiki and I could only find it on some Russian server. Nothing stored locally. I will admit this was before M-Pesa and a regular income so paying for it was hardly an option. But do people pirate because they don't want to pay or is it because they find it a bother to use the sanctioned means? Say I want to buy a track from Elani. What are the DRM and payment issues that I will need to have it on my phone, laptop and car stereo? On Thu, Jan 29, 2015 at 5:47 PM, Bernard Kioko via kictanet < kictanet@lists.kictanet.or.ke> wrote:

Mwendwa,

In one case the host servers are in Turkey…..any insight on that?

Regards

*From:* kictanet [mailto:kictanet-bounces+bkioko= bernsoft.com@lists.kictanet.or.ke] *On Behalf Of *Mwendwa Kivuva via kictanet *Sent:* Thursday, January 29, 2015 3:30 PM *To:* bkioko@bernsoft.com *Subject:* Re: [kictanet] Music Copyright Owners sue ISPs for allowing Kenyans to download content illegally

We have no "precedence" in Kenya on any intermediary liability case. It's a good move for the copyright owners to have this case brought forward and see what direction as a country we should take. This might spur players in the industry to bring legislation to parliament on the same.

What has worked very effectively elsewhere was The Digital Millennium Copyright Act (DMCA), a United States copyright law that implements two 1996 treaties of the World Intellectual Property Organization (WIPO). This essentially entails copyright owners policing online content and issuing takedown notices.

When you Google content that has takedown notices, you get this response:

*In response to a complaint we received under the US Digital Millennium Copyright Act <https://www.google.com/support/bin/answer.py?answer=1386831>, we have removed 1 result(s) from this page. If you wish, you may read the DMCA complaint <http://www.chillingeffects.org/notice.cgi?sID=10204135> that caused the removal(s) atChillingEffects.org.*

*In response to a complaint we received under the US Digital Millennium Copyright Act <https://www.google.com/support/bin/answer.py?answer=1386831>, we have removed 1 result(s) from this page. If you wish, you may read the DMCA complaint <http://www.chillingeffects.org/notice.cgi?sID=10246859> that caused the removal(s) atChillingEffects.org.*

*In response to a complaint we received under the US Digital Millennium Copyright Act <https://www.google.com/support/bin/answer.py?answer=1386831>, we have removed 1 result(s) from this page. If you wish, you may read the DMCA complaint <http://www.chillingeffects.org/notice.cgi?sID=10261005> that caused the removal(s) atChillingEffects.org.*

______________________ Mwendwa Kivuva, Nairobi, Kenya

"There are some men who lift the age they inhabit, till all men walk on higher ground in that lifetime." - Maxwell Anderson

On 29 January 2015 at 14:57, Mark Kipyegon via kictanet < kictanet@lists.kictanet.or.ke> wrote:

From a technical standpoint how feasible is it to simply blacklist sites?

Clone sites and proxies exist to circumvent these blocks.

...

James i posted a link where high court in UK ruled those same sites be blocked by ISPs and that's happening.

What's ur comment on that? On Jan 29, 2015 2:43 PM, "James Mbugua via kictanet" < kictanet@lists.kictanet.or.ke> wrote:

...

Listers,

Hmm...I don't know why I get the feeling this is a case of throwing mud at the wall to see if it will stick.

ISPs have never been held liable for downloading illegal content anywhere in the world. From the get go let us dispense with that. Neither will

On 29/01/2015 14:48, Bernard Kioko via kictanet wrote: they

...

...

be found so in this case.

I remember vividly when Napster came out and also when Kazaa followed....groups went after the sites not the ISPs. To this day, it is piracy sites that even the FBI goes for not the likes of Comcast or AT$T. Data privacy does not allow you to start checking what your customer is downloading or uploading....this is not China and getting into that territory is very dangerous for people's rights.

Let these guys do the hard work and go for the piracy sites or sue NTSA for allowing bhang to be transported on our roads.

lol

Regards,

James

...

...

On Thu, Jan 29, 2015 at 2:30 PM, Davis Onsakia via kictanet < kictanet@lists.kictanet.or.ke> wrote:

...

Will be an interesting case to keep the eye on.

What is not in doubt is that the final ruling will set a very serious precedent on how to deal with copyright issues when it comes to the Online World.

Best Regards, Davis M Onsakia "One doesn't discover new lands without consenting to lose sight of the shore for a very long time."

On 29 January 2015 at 13:46, Bernard Kioko via kictanet < kictanet@lists.kictanet.or.ke> wrote:

...

Reading from the article it says there is a list. On Jan 29, 2015 1:23 PM, "Dennis Kioko" <dmbuvi@gmail.com> wrote:

...

Does Kenya have necessary laws, and do the copyright holders have a list of infringing sites?

On Thu, 29 Jan 2015 13:04 Bernard Kioko <bkioko@bernsoft.com> wrote:

> > http://www.ispreview.co.uk/index.php/2014/11/uk-high-court-forces-big-isps-b... > On Jan 29, 2015 12:51 PM, "Dennis Kioko via kictanet" < > kictanet@lists.kictanet.or.ke> wrote: > >> Interesting case, though I wonder how ISPs allow people to allow >> content illegally. Any one with some insight? >> http://www.businessdailyafrica.com/Corporate-News/Music-copyright-owners-ill... >> >>

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Unsubscribe or change your options at https://lists.kictanet.or.ke/mailman/options/kictanet/kivuva%40transworldafr...

The Kenya ICT Action Network (KICTANet) is a multi-stakeholder platform for people and institutions interested and involved in ICT policy and regulation. The network aims to act as a catalyst for reform in the ICT sector in support of the national aim of ICT enabled growth and development.

KICTANetiquette : Adhere to the same standards of acceptable behaviors online that you follow in real life: respect people's times and bandwidth, share knowledge, don't flame or abuse or personalize, respect privacy, do not spam, do not market your wares or qualifications.

* ------------------------------ *

This e-mail and any attachments may contain information that is confidential, legally privileged and protected by law and is intended for the sole use of the named recipient(s). Any unauthorized review, use, or disclosure or distribution is prohibited. Any liability (in negligence or otherwise) arising from any third party acting, or refraining from acting on any information contained in this email is hereby excluded. If you are not the intended recipient, please delete the contents and notify the sender immediately; do not disclose the contents to any other person, use it for any purpose or store or copy the information in any medium. Whilst our e-mails are checked for viruses, we cannot guarantee that this message or any attachment is virus free, does not contain malicious code or is incompatible with your electronic system and the Company does not accept liability in respect of viruses, malicious code or any related problems that you might experience. For further information about us, please contact us at the address indicated below.

Bernsoft Interactive Limited - P O Box 15177-00100 Nairobi - Tel: +254 722 929192 Email: admin@bernsoft.com Web: www.bernsoft.com

_______________________________________________ kictanet mailing list kictanet@lists.kictanet.or.ke https://lists.kictanet.or.ke/mailman/listinfo/kictanet

Unsubscribe or change your options at https://lists.kictanet.or.ke/mailman/options/kictanet/mwangy%40gmail.com

The Kenya ICT Action Network (KICTANet) is a multi-stakeholder platform for people and institutions interested and involved in ICT policy and regulation. The network aims to act as a catalyst for reform in the ICT sector in support of the national aim of ICT enabled growth and development.

KICTANetiquette : Adhere to the same standards of acceptable behaviors online that you follow in real life: respect people's times and bandwidth, share knowledge, don't flame or abuse or personalize, respect privacy, do not spam, do not market your wares or qualifications.

-- Regards, Mark Mwangi markmwangi.me.ke

Christian, 100% agreed. Regards From: kictanet [mailto:kictanet-bounces+bkioko=bernsoft.com@lists.kictanet.or.ke] On Behalf Of christian kisutsa via kictanet Sent: Thursday, January 29, 2015 6:37 PM To: bkioko@bernsoft.com Subject: Re: [kictanet] Music Copyright Owners sue ISPs for allowing Kenyans to download content illegally Hi all, Unfortunately,most of the population here in Kenya,do not have a culture of buying music. . .we prefer freebies. . .A vast majority would download the video from youtube and convert to mp3. If that's not the case,how usually brrow a whole folder of Kenyan music from a friend? . . .Such steps are good to ensure artists get their dues,but when you don't factor in the the buyers purchase psychology then not much will be achieved. . .I believe they should embrace a data driven approach,they should study why most kenyans simply don't like buying music, address those concerns that they find and then create incentives. . .the next logical step would be to work with key stakeholders in the music industry and then move forward from there with the supporting legislation and proper enforcement. Regards, Christian On Thu, Jan 29, 2015 at 6:24 PM, Mark Mwangi via kictanet <kictanet@lists.kictanet.or.ke> wrote: As a creator of original works is good that you are taking steps to protecting it and the allied benefeciaries of the same. I agree with @cdohnio on a need to rethink the business model because it is more of a hurdle than an incentive. I once tried to look for Hardstone's Uhiki and I could only find it on some Russian server. Nothing stored locally. I will admit this was before M-Pesa and a regular income so paying for it was hardly an option. But do people pirate because they don't want to pay or is it because they find it a bother to use the sanctioned means? Say I want to buy a track from Elani. What are the DRM and payment issues that I will need to have it on my phone, laptop and car stereo? On Thu, Jan 29, 2015 at 5:47 PM, Bernard Kioko via kictanet <kictanet@lists.kictanet.or.ke> wrote: Mwendwa, In one case the host servers are in Turkey…..any insight on that? Regards From: kictanet [mailto:kictanet-bounces+bkioko <mailto:kictanet-bounces%2Bbkioko> =bernsoft.com@lists.kictanet.or.ke] On Behalf Of Mwendwa Kivuva via kictanet Sent: Thursday, January 29, 2015 3:30 PM To: bkioko@bernsoft.com Subject: Re: [kictanet] Music Copyright Owners sue ISPs for allowing Kenyans to download content illegally We have no "precedence" in Kenya on any intermediary liability case. It's a good move for the copyright owners to have this case brought forward and see what direction as a country we should take. This might spur players in the industry to bring legislation to parliament on the same. What has worked very effectively elsewhere was The Digital Millennium Copyright Act (DMCA), a United States copyright law that implements two 1996 treaties of the World Intellectual Property Organization (WIPO). This essentially entails copyright owners policing online content and issuing takedown notices. When you Google content that has takedown notices, you get this response: In response to a complaint we received under the <https://www.google.com/support/bin/answer.py?answer=1386831> US Digital Millennium Copyright Act, we have removed 1 result(s) from this page. If you wish, you may <http://www.chillingeffects.org/notice.cgi?sID=10204135> read the DMCA complaint that caused the removal(s) atChillingEffects.org. In response to a complaint we received under the <https://www.google.com/support/bin/answer.py?answer=1386831> US Digital Millennium Copyright Act, we have removed 1 result(s) from this page. If you wish, you may <http://www.chillingeffects.org/notice.cgi?sID=10246859> read the DMCA complaint that caused the removal(s) atChillingEffects.org. In response to a complaint we received under the <https://www.google.com/support/bin/answer.py?answer=1386831> US Digital Millennium Copyright Act, we have removed 1 result(s) from this page. If you wish, you may <http://www.chillingeffects.org/notice.cgi?sID=10261005> read the DMCA complaint that caused the removal(s) atChillingEffects.org. ______________________ Mwendwa Kivuva, Nairobi, Kenya "There are some men who lift the age they inhabit, till all men walk on higher ground in that lifetime." - Maxwell Anderson On 29 January 2015 at 14:57, Mark Kipyegon via kictanet <kictanet@lists.kictanet.or.ke> wrote:

From a technical standpoint how feasible is it to simply blacklist sites?

Clone sites and proxies exist to circumvent these blocks. On 29/01/2015 14:48, Bernard Kioko via kictanet wrote:

James i posted a link where high court in UK ruled those same sites be blocked by ISPs and that's happening.

What's ur comment on that? On Jan 29, 2015 2:43 PM, "James Mbugua via kictanet" < kictanet@lists.kictanet.or.ke> wrote:

...

Listers,

Hmm...I don't know why I get the feeling this is a case of throwing mud at the wall to see if it will stick.

ISPs have never been held liable for downloading illegal content anywhere in the world. From the get go let us dispense with that. Neither will they be found so in this case.

I remember vividly when Napster came out and also when Kazaa followed....groups went after the sites not the ISPs. To this day, it is piracy sites that even the FBI goes for not the likes of Comcast or AT$T. Data privacy does not allow you to start checking what your customer is downloading or uploading....this is not China and getting into that territory is very dangerous for people's rights.

Let these guys do the hard work and go for the piracy sites or sue NTSA for allowing bhang to be transported on our roads.

lol

Regards,

James

...

On Thu, Jan 29, 2015 at 2:30 PM, Davis Onsakia via kictanet < kictanet@lists.kictanet.or.ke> wrote:

...

Will be an interesting case to keep the eye on.

What is not in doubt is that the final ruling will set a very serious precedent on how to deal with copyright issues when it comes to the Online World.

Best Regards, Davis M Onsakia "One doesn't discover new lands without consenting to lose sight of the shore for a very long time."

On 29 January 2015 at 13:46, Bernard Kioko via kictanet < kictanet@lists.kictanet.or.ke> wrote:

...

Reading from the article it says there is a list. On Jan 29, 2015 1:23 PM, "Dennis Kioko" <dmbuvi@gmail.com> wrote:

...

Does Kenya have necessary laws, and do the copyright holders have a list of infringing sites?

On Thu, 29 Jan 2015 13:04 Bernard Kioko <bkioko@bernsoft.com> wrote:

...

http://www.ispreview.co.uk/index.php/2014/11/uk-high-court-forces-big-isps-b... On Jan 29, 2015 12:51 PM, "Dennis Kioko via kictanet" < kictanet@lists.kictanet.or.ke> wrote:

> Interesting case, though I wonder how ISPs allow people to allow > content illegally. Any one with some insight? > http://www.businessdailyafrica.com/Corporate-News/Music-copyright-owners-ill... > >

_______________________________________________ kictanet mailing list kictanet@lists.kictanet.or.ke https://lists.kictanet.or.ke/mailman/listinfo/kictanet Unsubscribe or change your options at https://lists.kictanet.or.ke/mailman/options/kictanet/kivuva%40transworldafr... The Kenya ICT Action Network (KICTANet) is a multi-stakeholder platform for people and institutions interested and involved in ICT policy and regulation. The network aims to act as a catalyst for reform in the ICT sector in support of the national aim of ICT enabled growth and development. KICTANetiquette : Adhere to the same standards of acceptable behaviors online that you follow in real life: respect people's times and bandwidth, share knowledge, don't flame or abuse or personalize, respect privacy, do not spam, do not market your wares or qualifications. _____ <http://bernsoft.com/img/logo.jpg> This e-mail and any attachments may contain information that is confidential, legally privileged and protected by law and is intended for the sole use of the named recipient(s). Any unauthorized review, use, or disclosure or distribution is prohibited. Any liability (in negligence or otherwise) arising from any third party acting, or refraining from acting on any information contained in this email is hereby excluded. If you are not the intended recipient, please delete the contents and notify the sender immediately; do not disclose the contents to any other person, use it for any purpose or store or copy the information in any medium. Whilst our e-mails are checked for viruses, we cannot guarantee that this message or any attachment is virus free, does not contain malicious code or is incompatible with your electronic system and the Company does not accept liability in respect of viruses, malicious code or any related problems that you might experience. For further information about us, please contact us at the address indicated below. Bernsoft Interactive Limited - P O Box 15177-00100 Nairobi - Tel: +254 722 929192 <tel:%2B254%20722%20929192> Email: admin@bernsoft.com Web: www.bernsoft.com _______________________________________________ kictanet mailing list kictanet@lists.kictanet.or.ke https://lists.kictanet.or.ke/mailman/listinfo/kictanet Unsubscribe or change your options at https://lists.kictanet.or.ke/mailman/options/kictanet/mwangy%40gmail.com The Kenya ICT Action Network (KICTANet) is a multi-stakeholder platform for people and institutions interested and involved in ICT policy and regulation. The network aims to act as a catalyst for reform in the ICT sector in support of the national aim of ICT enabled growth and development. KICTANetiquette : Adhere to the same standards of acceptable behaviors online that you follow in real life: respect people's times and bandwidth, share knowledge, don't flame or abuse or personalize, respect privacy, do not spam, do not market your wares or qualifications. -- Regards, Mark Mwangi markmwangi.me.ke _______________________________________________ kictanet mailing list kictanet@lists.kictanet.or.ke https://lists.kictanet.or.ke/mailman/listinfo/kictanet Unsubscribe or change your options at https://lists.kictanet.or.ke/mailman/options/kictanet/kisutsaxtian%40gmail.c... The Kenya ICT Action Network (KICTANet) is a multi-stakeholder platform for people and institutions interested and involved in ICT policy and regulation. The network aims to act as a catalyst for reform in the ICT sector in support of the national aim of ICT enabled growth and development. KICTANetiquette : Adhere to the same standards of acceptable behaviors online that you follow in real life: respect people's times and bandwidth, share knowledge, don't flame or abuse or personalize, respect privacy, do not spam, do not market your wares or qualifications. -- * ------------------------------ * This e-mail and any attachments may contain information that is confidential, legally privileged and protected by law and is intended for the sole use of the named recipient(s). Any unauthorized review, use, or disclosure or distribution is prohibited. Any liability (in negligence or otherwise) arising from any third party acting, or refraining from acting on any information contained in this email is hereby excluded. If you are not the intended recipient, please delete the contents and notify the sender immediately; do not disclose the contents to any other person, use it for any purpose or store or copy the information in any medium. Whilst our e-mails are checked for viruses, we cannot guarantee that this message or any attachment is virus free, does not contain malicious code or is incompatible with your electronic system and the Company does not accept liability in respect of viruses, malicious code or any related problems that you might experience. For further information about us, please contact us at the address indicated below. Bernsoft Interactive Limited - P O Box 15177-00100 Nairobi - Tel: +254 722 929192 Email: admin@bernsoft.com Web: www.bernsoft.com

On 29 January 2015 at 17:47, Bernard Kioko <bkioko@bernsoft.com> wrote:

In one case the host servers are in Turkey.....any insight on that?

Bernard, I'm not sure but I think you can start with search Engines, Yahoo, Bing, and Google. Instruct them not to index that content. Although I'm aware these companies hold developing countries in contempt and may not act on the orders. Regards ______________________ Mwendwa Kivuva, Nairobi, Kenya "There are some men who lift the age they inhabit, till all men walk on higher ground in that lifetime." - Maxwell Anderson

Blacklist is a good start.... -----Original Message----- From: kictanet [mailto:kictanet-bounces+bkioko=bernsoft.com@lists.kictanet.or.ke] On Behalf Of Mark Kipyegon via kictanet Sent: Thursday, January 29, 2015 2:58 PM To: bkioko@bernsoft.com Subject: Re: [kictanet] Music Copyright Owners sue ISPs for allowing Kenyans to download content illegally

From a technical standpoint how feasible is it to simply blacklist sites?

Clone sites and proxies exist to circumvent these blocks. On 29/01/2015 14:48, Bernard Kioko via kictanet wrote:

James i posted a link where high court in UK ruled those same sites be blocked by ISPs and that's happening.

What's ur comment on that? On Jan 29, 2015 2:43 PM, "James Mbugua via kictanet" < kictanet@lists.kictanet.or.ke> wrote:

...

Listers,

Hmm...I don't know why I get the feeling this is a case of throwing mud at the wall to see if it will stick.

ISPs have never been held liable for downloading illegal content anywhere in the world. From the get go let us dispense with that. Neither will they be found so in this case.

I remember vividly when Napster came out and also when Kazaa followed....groups went after the sites not the ISPs. To this day, it is piracy sites that even the FBI goes for not the likes of Comcast or AT$T. Data privacy does not allow you to start checking what your customer is downloading or uploading....this is not China and getting into that territory is very dangerous for people's rights.

Let these guys do the hard work and go for the piracy sites or sue NTSA for allowing bhang to be transported on our roads.

lol

Regards,

James

On Thu, Jan 29, 2015 at 2:30 PM, Davis Onsakia via kictanet < kictanet@lists.kictanet.or.ke> wrote:

...

Will be an interesting case to keep the eye on.

What is not in doubt is that the final ruling will set a very serious precedent on how to deal with copyright issues when it comes to the Online World.

Best Regards, Davis M Onsakia "One doesn't discover new lands without consenting to lose sight of the shore for a very long time."

On 29 January 2015 at 13:46, Bernard Kioko via kictanet < kictanet@lists.kictanet.or.ke> wrote:

...

Reading from the article it says there is a list. On Jan 29, 2015 1:23 PM, "Dennis Kioko" <dmbuvi@gmail.com> wrote:

...

Does Kenya have necessary laws, and do the copyright holders have a list of infringing sites?

On Thu, 29 Jan 2015 13:04 Bernard Kioko <bkioko@bernsoft.com> wrote:

...

http://www.ispreview.co.uk/index.php/2014/11/uk-high-court-forces -big-isps-block-56-new-internet-piracy-websites.html On Jan 29, 2015 12:51 PM, "Dennis Kioko via kictanet" < kictanet@lists.kictanet.or.ke> wrote:

> Interesting case, though I wonder how ISPs allow people to allow > content illegally. Any one with some insight? > http://www.businessdailyafrica.com/Corporate-News/Music-copyrigh > t-owners-illegal-downloads/-/539550/2605386/-/na4mbsz/-/index.ht > ml > >

_______________________________________________ kictanet mailing list kictanet@lists.kictanet.or.ke https://lists.kictanet.or.ke/mailman/listinfo/kictanet Unsubscribe or change your options at https://lists.kictanet.or.ke/mailman/options/kictanet/bkioko%40bernsoft.com The Kenya ICT Action Network (KICTANet) is a multi-stakeholder platform for people and institutions interested and involved in ICT policy and regulation. The network aims to act as a catalyst for reform in the ICT sector in support of the national aim of ICT enabled growth and development. KICTANetiquette : Adhere to the same standards of acceptable behaviors online that you follow in real life: respect people's times and bandwidth, share knowledge, don't flame or abuse or personalize, respect privacy, do not spam, do not market your wares or qualifications. -- * ------------------------------ * This e-mail and any attachments may contain information that is confidential, legally privileged and protected by law and is intended for the sole use of the named recipient(s). Any unauthorized review, use, or disclosure or distribution is prohibited. Any liability (in negligence or otherwise) arising from any third party acting, or refraining from acting on any information contained in this email is hereby excluded. If you are not the intended recipient, please delete the contents and notify the sender immediately; do not disclose the contents to any other person, use it for any purpose or store or copy the information in any medium. Whilst our e-mails are checked for viruses, we cannot guarantee that this message or any attachment is virus free, does not contain malicious code or is incompatible with your electronic system and the Company does not accept liability in respect of viruses, malicious code or any related problems that you might experience. For further information about us, please contact us at the address indicated below. Bernsoft Interactive Limited - P O Box 15177-00100 Nairobi - Tel: +254 722 929192 Email: admin@bernsoft.com Web: www.bernsoft.com

If we got what you describe below don’t you think that would be a good start? From: James Mbugua [mailto:jgmbugua@gmail.com] Sent: Thursday, January 29, 2015 3:04 PM To: Bernard Kioko Cc: KICTAnet ICT Policy Discussions Subject: Re: [kictanet] Music Copyright Owners sue ISPs for allowing Kenyans to download content illegally Kioko, Have you given the ISPs those sites and they have refused to block them? Shouldn't you be suing the sites? THe issue of "allowing" does not rise here, kwanza when they mention Privacy this case will be thrown out. What you might get is probably an order for Safaricom to be blocking a site WHEN YOU ALERT THEM TO IT not them out of their efforts to do so. And these sites can keep popping up so you guys have your work cut out for you. Like another lister mentioned, it might be time to explore other business models. James <http://t.signauxneuf.com/e1t/o/5/f18dQhb0S7ks8dDMPbW2n0x6l2B9gXrN7sKj6v5df9RN64kxbFRYHc-N8rBqW6QFLCHW5wfQ8G1k1H6H0?si=5495672839077888&pi=1a9352a4-3f6a-469c-f866-d66593903af1> On Thu, Jan 29, 2015 at 2:48 PM, Bernard Kioko <bkioko@bernsoft.com> wrote: James i posted a link where high court in UK ruled those same sites be blocked by ISPs and that's happening. What's ur comment on that? On Jan 29, 2015 2:43 PM, "James Mbugua via kictanet" <kictanet@lists.kictanet.or.ke> wrote: Listers, Hmm...I don't know why I get the feeling this is a case of throwing mud at the wall to see if it will stick. ISPs have never been held liable for downloading illegal content anywhere in the world. From the get go let us dispense with that. Neither will they be found so in this case. I remember vividly when Napster came out and also when Kazaa followed....groups went after the sites not the ISPs. To this day, it is piracy sites that even the FBI goes for not the likes of Comcast or AT$T. Data privacy does not allow you to start checking what your customer is downloading or uploading....this is not China and getting into that territory is very dangerous for people's rights. Let these guys do the hard work and go for the piracy sites or sue NTSA for allowing bhang to be transported on our roads. lol Regards, James On Thu, Jan 29, 2015 at 2:30 PM, Davis Onsakia via kictanet <kictanet@lists.kictanet.or.ke> wrote: Will be an interesting case to keep the eye on. What is not in doubt is that the final ruling will set a very serious precedent on how to deal with copyright issues when it comes to the Online World. Best Regards, Davis M Onsakia "One doesn't discover new lands without consenting to lose sight of the shore for a very long time." On 29 January 2015 at 13:46, Bernard Kioko via kictanet <kictanet@lists.kictanet.or.ke> wrote: Reading from the article it says there is a list. On Jan 29, 2015 1:23 PM, "Dennis Kioko" <dmbuvi@gmail.com> wrote: Does Kenya have necessary laws, and do the copyright holders have a list of infringing sites? On Thu, 29 Jan 2015 13:04 Bernard Kioko <bkioko@bernsoft.com> wrote: http://www.ispreview.co.uk/index.php/2014/11/uk-high-court-forces-big-isps-b... On Jan 29, 2015 12:51 PM, "Dennis Kioko via kictanet" <kictanet@lists.kictanet.or.ke> wrote: Interesting case, though I wonder how ISPs allow people to allow content illegally. Any one with some insight? http://www.businessdailyafrica.com/Corporate-News/Music-copyright-owners-ill... _______________________________________________ kictanet mailing list kictanet@lists.kictanet.or.ke https://lists.kictanet.or.ke/mailman/listinfo/kictanet Unsubscribe or change your options at https://lists.kictanet.or.ke/mailman/options/kictanet/bkioko%40bernsoft.com The Kenya ICT Action Network (KICTANet) is a multi-stakeholder platform for people and institutions interested and involved in ICT policy and regulation. The network aims to act as a catalyst for reform in the ICT sector in support of the national aim of ICT enabled growth and development. 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John ++ On Thursday, January 29, 2015, John Gitau via kictanet < kictanet@lists.kictanet.or.ke> wrote:

Oh wow now i am curious.

This can only be good for the lawyers. And maybe some awareness creation tv time etc.

I don't know a single isp (okay there is one) that won't have to re work their infrastructure if instructed to block sites such as the ones listed and someone finds a way to enforce a ruling against such isp's.

Doing so requires some unrecoverable capex.

Trying to police sites without changing the very nature /design of the Internet is in my opinion a waste of time and money. (Granted some entities will make money maube even create jobs but I digress).

As usual with technology anything is possible. I'm not sure we have laws to sort this sort of thing out. But hey who said we can't try... .funn fun times ahead

JG On 29 Jan 2015 13:47, "Bernard Kioko via kictanet" < kictanet@lists.kictanet.or.ke <javascript:_e(%7B%7D,'cvml','kictanet@lists.kictanet.or.ke');>> wrote:

...

Reading from the article it says there is a list. On Jan 29, 2015 1:23 PM, "Dennis Kioko" <dmbuvi@gmail.com <javascript:_e(%7B%7D,'cvml','dmbuvi@gmail.com');>> wrote:

...

Does Kenya have necessary laws, and do the copyright holders have a list of infringing sites?

On Thu, 29 Jan 2015 13:04 Bernard Kioko <bkioko@bernsoft.com <javascript:_e(%7B%7D,'cvml','bkioko@bernsoft.com');>> wrote:

...

http://www.ispreview.co.uk/index.php/2014/11/uk-high-court-forces-big-isps-b... On Jan 29, 2015 12:51 PM, "Dennis Kioko via kictanet" < kictanet@lists.kictanet.or.ke <javascript:_e(%7B%7D,'cvml','kictanet@lists.kictanet.or.ke');>> wrote:

...

Interesting case, though I wonder how ISPs allow people to allow content illegally. Any one with some insight? http://www.businessdailyafrica.com/Corporate-News/Music-copyright-owners-ill...

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Kenya is signatory to international laws & treaties and yes, infringing sites are available. From: Dennis Kioko [mailto:dmbuvi@gmail.com] Sent: Thursday, January 29, 2015 1:24 PM To: Bernard Kioko; KICTAnet ICT Policy Discussions Subject: Re: [kictanet] Music Copyright Owners sue ISPs for allowing Kenyans to download content illegally Does Kenya have necessary laws, and do the copyright holders have a list of infringing sites? On Thu, 29 Jan 2015 13:04 Bernard Kioko <bkioko@bernsoft.com> wrote: http://www.ispreview.co.uk/index.php/2014/11/uk-high-court-forces-big-isps-b lock-56-new-internet-piracy-websites.html On Jan 29, 2015 12:51 PM, "Dennis Kioko via kictanet" <kictanet@lists.kictanet.or.ke> wrote: Interesting case, though I wonder how ISPs allow people to allow content illegally. Any one with some insight? http://www.businessdailyafrica.com/Corporate-News/Music-copyright-owners-ill egal-downloads/-/539550/2605386/-/na4mbsz/-/index.html _______________________________________________ kictanet mailing list kictanet@lists.kictanet.or.ke https://lists.kictanet.or.ke/mailman/listinfo/kictanet Unsubscribe or change your options at https://lists.kictanet.or.ke/mailman/options/kictanet/bkioko%40bernsoft.com The Kenya ICT Action Network (KICTANet) is a multi-stakeholder platform for people and institutions interested and involved in ICT policy and regulation. The network aims to act as a catalyst for reform in the ICT sector in support of the national aim of ICT enabled growth and development. KICTANetiquette : Adhere to the same standards of acceptable behaviors online that you follow in real life: respect people's times and bandwidth, share knowledge, don't flame or abuse or personalize, respect privacy, do not spam, do not market your wares or qualifications. _____ <http://bernsoft.com/img/logo.jpg> This e-mail and any attachments may contain information that is confidential, legally privileged and protected by law and is intended for the sole use of the named recipient(s). Any unauthorized review, use, or disclosure or distribution is prohibited. Any liability (in negligence or otherwise) arising from any third party acting, or refraining from acting on any information contained in this email is hereby excluded. If you are not the intended recipient, please delete the contents and notify the sender immediately; do not disclose the contents to any other person, use it for any purpose or store or copy the information in any medium. Whilst our e-mails are checked for viruses, we cannot guarantee that this message or any attachment is virus free, does not contain malicious code or is incompatible with your electronic system and the Company does not accept liability in respect of viruses, malicious code or any related problems that you might experience. For further information about us, please contact us at the address indicated below. Bernsoft Interactive Limited - P O Box 15177-00100 Nairobi - Tel: +254 722 929192 Email: admin@bernsoft.com Web: www.bernsoft.com -- * ------------------------------ * This e-mail and any attachments may contain information that is confidential, legally privileged and protected by law and is intended for the sole use of the named recipient(s). Any unauthorized review, use, or disclosure or distribution is prohibited. Any liability (in negligence or otherwise) arising from any third party acting, or refraining from acting on any information contained in this email is hereby excluded. If you are not the intended recipient, please delete the contents and notify the sender immediately; do not disclose the contents to any other person, use it for any purpose or store or copy the information in any medium. Whilst our e-mails are checked for viruses, we cannot guarantee that this message or any attachment is virus free, does not contain malicious code or is incompatible with your electronic system and the Company does not accept liability in respect of viruses, malicious code or any related problems that you might experience. For further information about us, please contact us at the address indicated below. Bernsoft Interactive Limited - P O Box 15177-00100 Nairobi - Tel: +254 722 929192 Email: admin@bernsoft.com Web: www.bernsoft.com