Re: [kictanet] Fwd: PS Ndemo, ECONET Scandal aand Vested Interests
Anyone has taken the time to thoroughly study the secret behind Dubai's tremendous growth? (U.A.E in general). There are some useful lessons!
---- Original Message ---- From: j.maina@ymail.com To: eadera@idrc.or.ke Subject: Re: [kictanet] Fwd: PS Ndemo, ECONET Scandal aand Vested Interests Date: Wed, 15 Oct 2008 09:03:50 -0700 (PDT)
Lizette
I think that you have racially inclined your mind.
When did KENCALL directors become Kenyans? After getting good friends to bribe their way to this country. And let me tell you that the money the so called investors are using are Kenyan money not money from foreign banks.
They have come and borrowed from Kenyan banks. How much does the most profitable telecomms companies leave in this country, very small amount. We have Telecomms companies which are on their marks. They have very inferior systems and dont actually deliver in service but make billions and run away with the billions.
Dada Lizette, we know that there are Kenyans who are white, black
coloured and all but know that I am a mixed race Kenyan and really sad when our brotehrs have to suffer because of bad policies from people like PS > >JM > > > >----- Original Message ---- >From: Lizette Kraft <lfkraft@gmail.com> >To: j.maina@ymail.com >Cc: KICTAnet ICT Policy Discussions <kictanet@lists.kictanet.or.ke> >Sent: Tuesday, October 14, 2008 1:52:07 PM >Subject: [kictanet] Fwd: PS Ndemo, ECONET Scandal aand Vested Interests > > >Just my two pennies worth here. > >Kenya is not an Island that it can survive on its own even through local investment. Most times we dont have the funds. I do agree though about the Government and banks not supporting local investors with loans etc. They must start giving them the opportunity to setup local expertise and turn them in money making ventures, if only they wouldn't fleece their own companies. Even America, the giant needs investors!!! You all have a valid point but use it for the best interests of Kenya and its people first and foremost. Not just self interest for the few. And by the way Kenyans come in all shapes, sizes, COLOURS, and creed. So please don't generalise who is kenyan and who is not!!! Kencall directors and owners are Kenyan and not outsiders if I understand correctly. When we are taxed whether individually or coorporately, the money is used for Kenya and Kenyans and not for outsiders who invested! Forcing local partnership in foreign owned companies has > its negative and positive effects. >This needs to be look at more seriously to make it a win-win situation. It has been known in the past that foreign investors with forced local partnership have been subjected to threats and intimidation by the local partners when they wanted more than their fare share, (given to them mind you). Thus the weariness o >of being forced now. This does not attract any investor. But the foreigners should not fleece the country either! > >Let us have some constructive critisism without being racially inclined. Fight to make things right no matter what but without pinpointing nationalities or colours of people. > > > > >On 10/7/08, John Maina <j.maina@ymail.com> wrote: >http://www.wananchiforums.com/showthread.php?p=3150#poest3150 > >_______________________________________________ >kictanet mailing list >kictanet@lists.kictanet.or.ke >http://lists.kictanet.or.ke/mailman/listinfo/kictanet > >This message was sent to: lfkraft@gmail.com >Unsubscribe or change your options at http://lists.kictanet.or.ke/mailman/options/kictanet/lfkraft%40gmail. com > > > > >-- >Lizette Kraft >P.O. Box 18488, 00500 >Nairobi, Kenya >Cell: 0722-800362 > > >
Edith,There are some useful lessons - but these lessons do not include: 1. How to give away your national treasures - like bandwidth - to foreign entities just because they say they can not do any business with local entrepreneurs. In fact I know this for a fact, you would never get a license to operate in UAE if this was your argument. Further to this lesson I would like to point to these additional countries that would laugh you out of town if you made that argument - US (some businesses like Airline, Military and Defense, Telecommunications (not ISP), Radio & TV), India, Singapore, Malaysia, Taiwan, Hong Kong, China, the whole of Middle East, South Africa, Japan (especially Japan) 2. How not be conned. Kenya seems to heading there with its eyes opened. When a man approaches a woman, it would be a very stupid woman, who knowing what a man is capable of, to accept the BS that the man is feeding her. And if she does then she deserves what she gets. Kenya will get what it deserves and very soon. A good example is Russia and its oligarchs - all members of the Forbes Richest. 3. Great leadership is necessary to grow a country. A leadership with intestinal fortitude to say no under pressure. Top to bottom, 4. That the local mwananchi can invest in their own country and manage its growth 5. That a great nation looks upon its diaspora to grow it - a la Israel and India 6. That a great nation does not wait to be raped twice - We seem to be following a process that will guarantee our raping despite how Kenyan some members of this committee think they are. Its just a matter of time before they pick up their bags and leave. I really do not think that as a national planner I should be putting my eggs in that basket. Joe On Wed, Oct 15, 2008 at 4:55 PM, <eadera@idrc.or.ke> wrote:
Anyone has taken the time to thoroughly study the secret behind Dubai's tremendous growth? (U.A.E in general). There are some useful lessons!
---- Original Message ---- From: j.maina@ymail.com To: eadera@idrc.or.ke Subject: Re: [kictanet] Fwd: PS Ndemo, ECONET Scandal aand Vested Interests Date: Wed, 15 Oct 2008 09:03:50 -0700 (PDT)
Lizette
I think that you have racially inclined your mind.
When did KENCALL directors become Kenyans? After getting good friends to bribe their way to this country. And let me tell you that the money the so called investors are using are Kenyan money not money from foreign banks.
They have come and borrowed from Kenyan banks. How much does the most profitable telecomms companies leave in this country, very small amount. We have Telecomms companies which are on their marks. They have very inferior systems and dont actually deliver in service but make billions and run away with the billions.
Dada Lizette, we know that there are Kenyans who are white, black
coloured and all but know that I am a mixed race Kenyan and really sad when our brotehrs have to suffer because of bad policies from people like PS > >JM > > > >----- Original Message ---- >From: Lizette Kraft <lfkraft@gmail.com> >To: j.maina@ymail.com >Cc: KICTAnet ICT Policy Discussions <kictanet@lists.kictanet.or.ke> >Sent: Tuesday, October 14, 2008 1:52:07 PM >Subject: [kictanet] Fwd: PS Ndemo, ECONET Scandal aand Vested Interests > > >Just my two pennies worth here. > >Kenya is not an Island that it can survive on its own even through local investment. Most times we dont have the funds. I do agree though about the Government and banks not supporting local investors with loans etc. They must start giving them the opportunity to setup local expertise and turn them in money making ventures, if only they wouldn't fleece their own companies. Even America, the giant needs investors!!! You all have a valid point but use it for the best interests of Kenya and its people first and foremost. Not just self interest for the few. And by the way Kenyans come in all shapes, sizes, COLOURS, and creed. So please don't generalise who is kenyan and who is not!!! Kencall directors and owners are Kenyan and not outsiders if I understand correctly. When we are taxed whether individually or coorporately, the money is used for Kenya and Kenyans and not for outsiders who invested! Forcing local partnership in foreign owned companies has > its negative and positive effects. >This needs to be look at more seriously to make it a win-win situation. It has been known in the past that foreign investors with forced local partnership have been subjected to threats and intimidation by the local partners when they wanted more than their fare share, (given to them mind you). Thus the weariness o >of being forced now. This does not attract any investor. But the foreigners should not fleece the country either! > >Let us have some constructive critisism without being racially inclined. Fight to make things right no matter what but without pinpointing nationalities or colours of people. > > > > >On 10/7/08, John Maina <j.maina@ymail.com> wrote: >http://www.wananchiforums.com/showthread.php?p=3150#poest3150 > >_______________________________________________ >kictanet mailing list >kictanet@lists.kictanet.or.ke >http://lists.kictanet.or.ke/mailman/listinfo/kictanet > >This message was sent to: lfkraft@gmail.com >Unsubscribe or change your options at http://lists.kictanet.or.ke/mailman/options/kictanet/lfkraft%40gmail. com > > > > >-- >Lizette Kraft >P.O. Box 18488, 00500 >Nairobi, Kenya >Cell: 0722-800362 > > >
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Dear all, What is the desired outcome of this very energised thread? (Select one) A: That the PS (I&C) announce that policies shall be developed in an open, transparent and consultative manner. He also must organise a forum to kickstart non-emotive talks by mid-November. B: That PS Ndemo resigns and is replaced with a person of your choice. C: That the Econet licence, Kencall licence and related MoUs, contracts signed by PS (I&C) be cancelled. D: That all stakeholders Govt., KICTANET, KIF, CA, etc organise an "ICT Investment" policy forum to be held in Nairobi around mid- November 2008. I hope this shall help us focus on defining and achieving a common goal so that we desist from personal attacks on integrity, racial profiling and so on... Good day, Wainaina On 10/16/08, Joseph Manthi <jmanthi@gmail.com> wrote:
Edith,There are some useful lessons - but these lessons do not include:
1. How to give away your national treasures - like bandwidth - to foreign entities just because they say they can not do any business with local entrepreneurs. In fact I know this for a fact, you would never get a license to operate in UAE if this was your argument. Further to this lesson I would like to point to these additional countries that would laugh you out of town if you made that argument - US (some businesses like Airline, Military and Defense, Telecommunications (not ISP), Radio & TV), India, Singapore, Malaysia, Taiwan, Hong Kong, China, the whole of Middle East, South Africa, Japan (especially Japan)
2. How not be conned. Kenya seems to heading there with its eyes opened. When a man approaches a woman, it would be a very stupid woman, who knowing what a man is capable of, to accept the BS that the man is feeding her. And if she does then she deserves what she gets. Kenya will get what it deserves and very soon. A good example is Russia and its oligarchs - all members of the Forbes Richest.
3. Great leadership is necessary to grow a country. A leadership with intestinal fortitude to say no under pressure. Top to bottom,
4. That the local mwananchi can invest in their own country and manage its growth
5. That a great nation looks upon its diaspora to grow it - a la Israel and India
6. That a great nation does not wait to be raped twice - We seem to be following a process that will guarantee our raping despite how Kenyan some members of this committee think they are. Its just a matter of time before they pick up their bags and leave. I really do not think that as a national planner I should be putting my eggs in that basket.
Joe
On Wed, Oct 15, 2008 at 4:55 PM, <eadera@idrc.or.ke> wrote:
Anyone has taken the time to thoroughly study the secret behind Dubai's tremendous growth? (U.A.E in general). There are some useful lessons!
---- Original Message ---- From: j.maina@ymail.com To: eadera@idrc.or.ke Subject: Re: [kictanet] Fwd: PS Ndemo, ECONET Scandal aand Vested Interests Date: Wed, 15 Oct 2008 09:03:50 -0700 (PDT)
Lizette
I think that you have racially inclined your mind.
When did KENCALL directors become Kenyans? After getting good friends to bribe their way to this country. And let me tell you that the money the so called investors are using are Kenyan money not money from foreign banks.
They have come and borrowed from Kenyan banks. How much does the most profitable telecomms companies leave in this country, very small amount. We have Telecomms companies which are on their marks. They have very inferior systems and dont actually deliver in service but make billions and run away with the billions.
Dada Lizette, we know that there are Kenyans who are white, black
coloured and all but know that I am a mixed race Kenyan and really sad when our brotehrs have to suffer because of bad policies from people like PS > >JM > > > >----- Original Message ---- >From: Lizette Kraft <lfkraft@gmail.com> >To: j.maina@ymail.com >Cc: KICTAnet ICT Policy Discussions <kictanet@lists.kictanet.or.ke> >Sent: Tuesday, October 14, 2008 1:52:07 PM >Subject: [kictanet] Fwd: PS Ndemo, ECONET Scandal aand Vested Interests > > >Just my two pennies worth here. > >Kenya is not an Island that it can survive on its own even through local investment. Most times we dont have the funds. I do agree though about the Government and banks not supporting local investors with loans etc. They must start giving them the opportunity to setup local expertise and turn them in money making ventures, if only they wouldn't fleece their own companies. Even America, the giant needs investors!!! You all have a valid point but use it for the best interests of Kenya and its people first and foremost. Not just self interest for the few. And by the way Kenyans come in all shapes, sizes, COLOURS, and creed. So please don't generalise who is kenyan and who is not!!! Kencall directors and owners are Kenyan and not outsiders if I understand correctly. When we are taxed whether individually or coorporately, the money is used for Kenya and Kenyans and not for outsiders who invested! Forcing local partnership in foreign owned companies has > its negative and positive effects. >This needs to be look at more seriously to make it a win-win situation. It has been known in the past that foreign investors with forced local partnership have been subjected to threats and intimidation by the local partners when they wanted more than their fare share, (given to them mind you). Thus the weariness o >of being forced now. This does not attract any investor. But the foreigners should not fleece the country either! > >Let us have some constructive critisism without being racially inclined. Fight to make things right no matter what but without pinpointing nationalities or colours of people. > > > > >On 10/7/08, John Maina <j.maina@ymail.com> wrote: >http://www.wananchiforums.com/showthread.php?p=3150#poest3150 > >_______________________________________________ >kictanet mailing list >kictanet@lists.kictanet.or.ke >http://lists.kictanet.or.ke/mailman/listinfo/kictanet > >This message was sent to: lfkraft@gmail.com >Unsubscribe or change your options at http://lists.kictanet.or.ke/mailman/options/kictanet/lfkraft%40gmail. com > > > > >-- >Lizette Kraft >P.O. Box 18488, 00500 >Nairobi, Kenya >Cell: 0722-800362 > > >
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Moderator Is there a way off having an online poll to know where we stand maybe from there we may be able to know who is for or against the policies being discussed. Then we can give reasons as I don't think this a list to decide who is more kenyan than the other its about what will affect us all Tony On 10/16/08, Wainaina Mungai <wainaina@madeinkenya.org> wrote:
Dear all,
What is the desired outcome of this very energised thread? (Select one)
A: That the PS (I&C) announce that policies shall be developed in an open, transparent and consultative manner. He also must organise a forum to kickstart non-emotive talks by mid-November.
B: That PS Ndemo resigns and is replaced with a person of your choice.
C: That the Econet licence, Kencall licence and related MoUs, contracts signed by PS (I&C) be cancelled.
D: That all stakeholders Govt., KICTANET, KIF, CA, etc organise an "ICT Investment" policy forum to be held in Nairobi around mid- November 2008.
I hope this shall help us focus on defining and achieving a common goal so that we desist from personal attacks on integrity, racial profiling and so on...
Good day, Wainaina
On 10/16/08, Joseph Manthi <jmanthi@gmail.com> wrote:
Edith,There are some useful lessons - but these lessons do not include:
1. How to give away your national treasures - like bandwidth - to foreign entities just because they say they can not do any business with local entrepreneurs. In fact I know this for a fact, you would never get a license to operate in UAE if this was your argument. Further to this lesson I would like to point to these additional countries that would laugh you out of town if you made that argument - US (some businesses like Airline, Military and Defense, Telecommunications (not ISP), Radio & TV), India, Singapore, Malaysia, Taiwan, Hong Kong, China, the whole of Middle East, South Africa, Japan (especially Japan)
2. How not be conned. Kenya seems to heading there with its eyes opened. When a man approaches a woman, it would be a very stupid woman, who knowing what a man is capable of, to accept the BS that the man is feeding her. And if she does then she deserves what she gets. Kenya will get what it deserves and very soon. A good example is Russia and its oligarchs - all members of the Forbes Richest.
3. Great leadership is necessary to grow a country. A leadership with intestinal fortitude to say no under pressure. Top to bottom,
4. That the local mwananchi can invest in their own country and manage its growth
5. That a great nation looks upon its diaspora to grow it - a la Israel and India
6. That a great nation does not wait to be raped twice - We seem to be following a process that will guarantee our raping despite how Kenyan some members of this committee think they are. Its just a matter of time before they pick up their bags and leave. I really do not think that as a national planner I should be putting my eggs in that basket.
Joe
On Wed, Oct 15, 2008 at 4:55 PM, <eadera@idrc.or.ke> wrote:
Anyone has taken the time to thoroughly study the secret behind Dubai's tremendous growth? (U.A.E in general). There are some useful lessons!
---- Original Message ---- From: j.maina@ymail.com To: eadera@idrc.or.ke Subject: Re: [kictanet] Fwd: PS Ndemo, ECONET Scandal aand Vested Interests Date: Wed, 15 Oct 2008 09:03:50 -0700 (PDT)
Lizette
I think that you have racially inclined your mind.
When did KENCALL directors become Kenyans? After getting good friends to bribe their way to this country. And let me tell you that the money the so called investors are using are Kenyan money not money from foreign banks.
They have come and borrowed from Kenyan banks. How much does the most profitable telecomms companies leave in this country, very small amount. We have Telecomms companies which are on their marks. They have very inferior systems and dont actually deliver in service but make billions and run away with the billions.
Dada Lizette, we know that there are Kenyans who are white, black
coloured and all but know that I am a mixed race Kenyan and really sad when our brotehrs have to suffer because of bad policies from people like PS > >JM > > > >----- Original Message ---- >From: Lizette Kraft <lfkraft@gmail.com> >To: j.maina@ymail.com >Cc: KICTAnet ICT Policy Discussions <kictanet@lists.kictanet.or.ke> >Sent: Tuesday, October 14, 2008 1:52:07 PM >Subject: [kictanet] Fwd: PS Ndemo, ECONET Scandal aand Vested Interests > > >Just my two pennies worth here. > >Kenya is not an Island that it can survive on its own even through local investment. Most times we dont have the funds. I do agree though about the Government and banks not supporting local investors with loans etc. They must start giving them the opportunity to setup local expertise and turn them in money making ventures, if only they wouldn't fleece their own companies. Even America, the giant needs investors!!! You all have a valid point but use it for the best interests of Kenya and its people first and foremost. Not just self interest for the few. And by the way Kenyans come in all shapes, sizes, COLOURS, and creed. So please don't generalise who is kenyan and who is not!!! Kencall directors and owners are Kenyan and not outsiders if I understand correctly. When we are taxed whether individually or coorporately, the money is used for Kenya and Kenyans and not for outsiders who invested! Forcing local partnership in foreign owned companies has > its negative and positive effects. >This needs to be look at more seriously to make it a win-win situation. It has been known in the past that foreign investors with forced local partnership have been subjected to threats and intimidation by the local partners when they wanted more than their fare share, (given to them mind you). Thus the weariness o >of being forced now. This does not attract any investor. But the foreigners should not fleece the country either! > >Let us have some constructive critisism without being racially inclined. Fight to make things right no matter what but without pinpointing nationalities or colours of people. > > > > >On 10/7/08, John Maina <j.maina@ymail.com> wrote: >http://www.wananchiforums.com/showthread.php?p=3150#poest3150 > >_______________________________________________ >kictanet mailing list >kictanet@lists.kictanet.or.ke >http://lists.kictanet.or.ke/mailman/listinfo/kictanet > >This message was sent to: lfkraft@gmail.com >Unsubscribe or change your options at http://lists.kictanet.or.ke/mailman/options/kictanet/lfkraft%40gmail. com > > > > >-- >Lizette Kraft >P.O. Box 18488, 00500 >Nairobi, Kenya >Cell: 0722-800362 > > >
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Hey Folks, I have lurked in the background for a while and like Wainaina I got a bit lost in the exchanges. But I think one fundamental thread in all this - despite the muddy exchanges - is the question of how do want to engage with Foreign Investors? JM and others may have a point here - despite their strong language. So maybe to bring benefit out of all these, we could indulge for a day or two on the Policy we want as far as Foreign Direct Investments (FDI) into our ICT industry are concerned. Correct me if am wrong but I believe the Government position/policy on this has been that the Foreign investor MUST incorporate a local investor at minimum ratio 20%(local) to 80%(foreign) ownership/equity. I think the members who feel that this should be changed have cases/examples where the local equity/investor failed to come up with their 20% capital and so the opportunity for investment disappears. On the other hand, other members feel that local investors are abundantly rich and can come up with even over 50% of any capital/equity required to invest in the industry. I honestly dont know which side is right and which one is wrong - but what I do know is that there exists cases where the local investors have failed to meet their capital requirements - hence the need to review or interrogate whether this policy is detrimental or indeed beneficial to our industry. Plse lets have objective comments that are devoid of personal attacks and we shall make progress. Otherwise we begin to sound like a broken record. walu. --- On Thu, 10/16/08, gachuhi anthony <gachuhi.anthony@gmail.com> wrote:
From: gachuhi anthony <gachuhi.anthony@gmail.com> Subject: Re: [kictanet] PS Ndemo, ECONET Scandal aand Vested Interests To: jwalu@yahoo.com Cc: "KICTAnet ICT Policy Discussions" <kictanet@lists.kictanet.or.ke> Date: Thursday, October 16, 2008, 8:16 AM Moderator Is there a way off having an online poll to know where we stand maybe from there we may be able to know who is for or against the policies being discussed. Then we can give reasons as I don't think this a list to decide who is more kenyan than the other its about what will affect us all Tony
Dear all,
What is the desired outcome of this very energised
On 10/16/08, Wainaina Mungai <wainaina@madeinkenya.org> wrote: thread? (Select one)
A: That the PS (I&C) announce that policies shall
open, transparent and consultative manner. He also must organise a forum to kickstart non-emotive talks by mid-November.
B: That PS Ndemo resigns and is replaced with a person of your choice.
C: That the Econet licence, Kencall licence and related MoUs, contracts signed by PS (I&C) be cancelled.
D: That all stakeholders Govt., KICTANET, KIF, CA, etc organise an "ICT Investment" policy forum to be held in Nairobi around mid- November 2008.
I hope this shall help us focus on defining and achieving a common goal so that we desist from personal attacks on integrity, racial profiling and so on...
Good day, Wainaina
On 10/16/08, Joseph Manthi <jmanthi@gmail.com> wrote:
Edith,There are some useful lessons - but these lessons do not include:
1. How to give away your national treasures - like bandwidth - to foreign entities just because they say they can not do any business with local entrepreneurs. In fact I know this for a fact, you would never get a license to operate in UAE if this was your argument. Further to this lesson I would like to point to these additional countries that would laugh you out of town if you made that argument - US (some businesses
Defense, Telecommunications (not ISP), Radio & TV), India, Singapore, Malaysia, Taiwan, Hong Kong, China, the whole of Middle East, South Africa, Japan (especially Japan)
2. How not be conned. Kenya seems to heading there with its eyes opened. When a man approaches a woman, it would be a very stupid woman, who knowing what a man is capable of, to accept the BS that
And if she does then she deserves what she gets. Kenya will get what it deserves and very soon. A good example is Russia and its
the Forbes Richest.
3. Great leadership is necessary to grow a country. A leadership with intestinal fortitude to say no under pressure. Top to bottom,
4. That the local mwananchi can invest in their own country and manage its growth
5. That a great nation looks upon its diaspora to grow it - a la Israel and India
6. That a great nation does not wait to be raped twice - We seem to be following a process that will guarantee our raping despite how Kenyan some members of this committee think they are. Its just a matter of time before they pick up their bags and leave. I really do not
national planner I should be putting my eggs in that basket.
Joe
On Wed, Oct 15, 2008 at 4:55 PM, <eadera@idrc.or.ke> wrote:
Anyone has taken the time to thoroughly study
Dubai's tremendous growth? (U.A.E in general). There are some useful lessons!
---- Original Message ---- From: j.maina@ymail.com To: eadera@idrc.or.ke Subject: Re: [kictanet] Fwd: PS Ndemo,
ECONET Scandal aand Vested
Interests Date: Wed, 15 Oct 2008 09:03:50 -0700 (PDT)
Lizette
I think that you have racially inclined your mind.
When did KENCALL directors become Kenyans? After getting good friends to bribe their way to this country. And let me tell you that the money the so called investors are using are Kenyan money not money from foreign banks.
They have come and borrowed from Kenyan banks. How much does the most profitable telecomms companies leave in this country, very small amount. We have Telecomms companies which are on their marks. They have very inferior systems and dont actually deliver in service but make billions and run away with the billions.
Dada Lizette, we know that there are Kenyans who are white, black
coloured and all but know that I am a mixed race Kenyan and really sad when our brotehrs have to suffer because of bad policies from people like PS > >JM > > > >----- Original Message ---- >From: Lizette Kraft <lfkraft@gmail.com> >To: j.maina@ymail.com >Cc: KICTAnet ICT Policy Discussions <kictanet@lists.kictanet.or.ke> >Sent: Tuesday, October 14, 2008 1:52:07 PM >Subject: [kictanet] Fwd: PS Ndemo, ECONET Scandal aand Vested Interests > > >Just my two pennies worth here. > >Kenya is not an Island that it can survive on its own even through local investment. Most times we dont have
though about the Government and banks not supporting local investors with loans etc. They must start giving
local expertise and turn them in money making ventures, if only they wouldn't fleece their own companies. Even America, the giant needs investors!!! You all have a valid point but use it for the best interests of Kenya and its people first and foremost. Not just self interest for the few. And by the way Kenyans come in all shapes, sizes, COLOURS, and creed. So please don't generalise who is kenyan and who is not!!! Kencall directors and owners are Kenyan and not outsiders if I understand correctly. When we are taxed whether individually or coorporately, the money is used for Kenya and Kenyans and not for outsiders who invested! Forcing local partnership in foreign owned companies has
its negative and positive effects. This needs to be look at more seriously to make it a win-win situation. It has been known in the past
forced local partnership have been subjected to threats and intimidation by the local partners when
fare share, (given to them mind you). Thus
of being forced now. This does not attract any investor. But the foreigners should not fleece the country either!
Let us have some constructive critisism without being racially inclined. Fight to make things right no matter what but without pinpointing nationalities or colours of
be developed in an like Airline, Military and the man is feeding her. oligarchs - all members of think that as a the secret behind the funds. I do agree them the opportunity to setup that foreign investors with they wanted more than their the weariness o people.
On 10/7/08, John Maina
<j.maina@ymail.com> wrote:
http://www.wananchiforums.com/showthread.php?p=3150#poest3150
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Dear all Agree with Walu, could we have objective discussions and avoid personal attacks. The issue is about our FDI policy. So how can our government effectively develop and implement investment policy reforms in the ICT "sector"? How do we address and overcome specific bottlenecks to investment in ICTs? What are the best practices? Could we discuss these issues without resulting to the awful exchanges we have had the past two or so weeks. And a reminder of KICTAnet mailing list rules: * **Mailing list manners you must mind**: Don’t send rude, political, tribal, sexist and offensive e-mails or postings. * Be polite - virtual members are real, not cyberspace dunderheads with no feelings.* Watch your words -please kick the bad language* Don't lie, abuse or deliberately do harm to another ........ **WHAT KINDS OF MESSAGES ARE APPROPRIATE?* *The KICTANet list is appropriately used for discussions, raising questions, responding to issues on Information and Communication Technologies (ICTs) policy, regulation, practice, research, posting notices of ICT related events, discussions, job vacancies, sharing reviews of news articles, papers, reports, or upcoming conferences/meetings or workshop that you think will be of broad interest, asking if others know of ICT related resources on a particular topic, commenting on a discussion thread, and the like. * **WHAT KINDS OF THINGS ARE INAPPROPRIATE FOR THE KICTANET MAILING LIST? *** *The list should **NOT** be used for blatant advertising of services, products or the advertisement of services available from someone else. Please do **not** send updates of your addresses or other personal contact details to the listserv. Greetings to friends, etc only flood mailboxes and should *not*be done through this mailing list. Gender inappropriate or other references that may be offensive to some groups or individuals should not be posted, of course. best alice
Hey Folks,
I have lurked in the background for a while and like Wainaina I got a bit lost in the exchanges. But I think one fundamental thread in all this - despite the muddy exchanges - is the question of how do want to engage with Foreign Investors? JM and others may have a point here - despite their strong language.
So maybe to bring benefit out of all these, we could indulge for a day or two on the Policy we want as far as Foreign Direct Investments (FDI) into our ICT industry are concerned.
Correct me if am wrong but I believe the Government position/policy on this has been that the Foreign investor MUST incorporate a local investor at minimum ratio 20%(local) to 80%(foreign) ownership/equity. I think the members who feel that this should be changed have cases/examples where the local equity/investor failed to come up with their 20% capital and so the opportunity for investment disappears. On the other hand, other members feel that local investors are abundantly rich and can come up with even over 50% of any capital/equity required to invest in the industry.
I honestly dont know which side is right and which one is wrong - but what I do know is that there exists cases where the local investors have failed to meet their capital requirements - hence the need to review or interrogate whether this policy is detrimental or indeed beneficial to our industry.
Plse lets have objective comments that are devoid of personal attacks and we shall make progress. Otherwise we begin to sound like a broken record.
walu.
--- On Thu, 10/16/08, gachuhi anthony <gachuhi.anthony@gmail.com> wrote:
From: gachuhi anthony <gachuhi.anthony@gmail.com> Subject: Re: [kictanet] PS Ndemo, ECONET Scandal aand Vested Interests To: jwalu@yahoo.com Cc: "KICTAnet ICT Policy Discussions" <kictanet@lists.kictanet.or.ke> Date: Thursday, October 16, 2008, 8:16 AM Moderator Is there a way off having an online poll to know where we stand maybe from there we may be able to know who is for or against the policies being discussed. Then we can give reasons as I don't think this a list to decide who is more kenyan than the other its about what will affect us all Tony
On 10/16/08, Wainaina Mungai <wainaina@madeinkenya.org> wrote:
Dear all,
What is the desired outcome of this very energised
thread? (Select one)
A: That the PS (I&C) announce that policies shall
be developed in an
open, transparent and consultative manner. He also
must organise a
forum to kickstart non-emotive talks by mid-November.
B: That PS Ndemo resigns and is replaced with a person
of your choice.
C: That the Econet licence, Kencall licence and
related MoUs,
contracts signed by PS (I&C) be cancelled.
D: That all stakeholders Govt., KICTANET, KIF, CA, etc
organise an
"ICT Investment" policy forum to be held in
Nairobi around mid-
November 2008.
I hope this shall help us focus on defining and
achieving a common
goal so that we desist from personal attacks on
integrity, racial
profiling and so on...
Good day, Wainaina
On 10/16/08, Joseph Manthi <jmanthi@gmail.com>
wrote:
Edith,There are some useful lessons - but these
lessons do not include:
1. How to give away your national treasures - like
bandwidth - to foreign
entities just because they say they can not do any
business with local
entrepreneurs. In fact I know this for a fact, you
would never get a
license to operate in UAE if this was your argument.
Further to this lesson I
would like to point to these additional countries that
would laugh you out of
town if you made that argument - US (some businesses
like Airline, Military and
Defense, Telecommunications (not ISP), Radio &
TV), India, Singapore,
Malaysia, Taiwan, Hong Kong, China, the whole of
Middle East, South
Africa, Japan (especially Japan)
2. How not be conned. Kenya seems to heading there
with its eyes opened.
When a man approaches a woman, it would be a very
stupid woman, who
knowing what a man is capable of, to accept the BS that
the man is feeding her.
And if she does then she deserves what she gets. Kenya
will get what it
deserves and very soon. A good example is Russia and its
oligarchs - all members of
the Forbes Richest.
3. Great leadership is necessary to grow a
country. A leadership with
intestinal fortitude to say no under pressure. Top
to bottom,
4. That the local mwananchi can invest in their
own country and manage its
growth
5. That a great nation looks upon its diaspora to
grow it - a la Israel
and India
6. That a great nation does not wait to be raped
twice - We seem to be
following a process that will guarantee our raping
despite how Kenyan some
members of this committee think they are. Its just
a matter of time before
they pick up their bags and leave. I really do not
think that as a
national planner I should be putting my eggs in that
basket.
Joe
On Wed, Oct 15, 2008 at 4:55 PM,
<eadera@idrc.or.ke> wrote:
Anyone has taken the time to thoroughly study
the secret behind
Dubai's tremendous growth? (U.A.E in
general). There are some useful
lessons!
---- Original Message ---- From: j.maina@ymail.com To: eadera@idrc.or.ke Subject: Re: [kictanet] Fwd: PS Ndemo,
ECONET Scandal aand Vested
Interests Date: Wed, 15 Oct 2008 09:03:50 -0700
(PDT)
> Lizette > > I think that you have racially > inclined your mind.
> When did KENCALL directors become > Kenyans? After getting good
friends to bribe their way to this
country. And let me tell you that
the money the so called investors are
using are Kenyan money not
money from foreign banks.
> They have come and borrowed from > Kenyan banks. How much does the
most profitable telecomms companies leave
in this country, very small
amount. We have Telecomms companies which
are on their marks. They
have very inferior systems and dont
actually deliver in service but
make billions and run away with the
billions.
> Dada Lizette, we know that there are > Kenyans who are white, black
coloured and all but know that I am a
mixed race Kenyan and really
sad when our brotehrs have to suffer
because of bad policies from
people like PS
> JM > > > > ----- Original Message ---- > From: Lizette Kraft > <lfkraft@gmail.com>
> To: j.maina@ymail.com > Cc: KICTAnet ICT Policy Discussions > <kictanet@lists.kictanet.or.ke>
> Sent: Tuesday, October 14, 2008 > 1:52:07 PM
> Subject: [kictanet] Fwd: PS Ndemo, > ECONET Scandal aand Vested
Interests
> Just my two pennies worth here. > > Kenya is not an Island that it can > survive on its own even through
local investment. Most times we dont have
the funds. I do agree
though about the Government and banks not
supporting local investors
with loans etc. They must start giving
them the opportunity to setup
local expertise and turn them in money
making ventures, if only they
wouldn't fleece their own companies.
Even America, the giant needs
investors!!! You all have a valid point
but use it for the best
interests of Kenya and its people first
and foremost. Not just self
interest for the few. And by the way
Kenyans come in all shapes,
sizes, COLOURS, and creed. So please
don't generalise who is kenyan
and who is not!!! Kencall directors and
owners are Kenyan and not
outsiders if I understand correctly. When
we are taxed whether
individually or coorporately, the money is
used for Kenya and Kenyans
and not for outsiders who invested!
Forcing local partnership in
foreign owned companies has
> its negative and positive effects. > This needs to be look at more > seriously to make it a win-win
situation. It has been known in the past
that foreign investors with
forced local partnership have been
subjected to threats and
intimidation by the local partners when
they wanted more than their
fare share, (given to them mind you). Thus
the weariness o
> of being forced now. This does not > attract any investor. But the
foreigners should not fleece the country
either!
> Let us have some constructive > critisism without being racially
inclined. Fight to make things right no
matter what but without
pinpointing nationalities or colours of
people.
> > > On 10/7/08, John Maina > <j.maina@ymail.com> wrote:
http://www.wananchiforums.com/showthread.php?p=3150#poest3150
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> kictanet mailing list > kictanet@lists.kictanet.or.ke > http://lists.kictanet.or.ke/mailman/listinfo/kictanet
> This message was sent to: > lfkraft@gmail.com
> Unsubscribe or change your options at > http://lists.kictanet.or.ke/mailman/options/kictanet/lfkraft%40gmail.
com
> > > -- > Lizette Kraft > P.O. Box 18488, 00500 > Nairobi, Kenya > Cell: 0722-800362 > > > >
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Dear colleagues, i lost my shares in Vodacom Tanzania ( a company that I personally incubated) because of trickery of a few powerful nationals. I would not like that to happen to anybody I know. It is a very bitter experience especially at a time when the world is moving fast to eradicate boundaries. I suggest that we Kenyans must be ready to compete, without losing it all out to foreigners. The govt. must offer us opportunities to compete. As Edith Adera puts it, the whole world is today admiring Dubai, Kenyans included. this is because of openness. With regard to Econet, I personally tried to assist farmers get their big chank of 85 percent of the shares, but we saw more of conferencing than action - they eventually lost it. Econet and Kenya Govt. eventually ended up in court and consequently Econet got their license. Was there a need for the time lost? Had Econet launch in time, Kenya consumers would have sniffed low Call tariffs much earlier as a result of competition - something that Michael Joseph was not afraid of. Who are the the true directors of Kencall? If they are the Nesbits I know, then they must be Kenyans. As a child, Dr. Nesbit was my personal doctor and today I am an old man facing retirement. If they are the Nesbits I know, then kudos to them as the family is now offering jobs to their fellow Kenyans. Let us face facts. Before Vodafon arrived in Kenya, Safaricom was managed by us - KPTC. I am sure everybody can remember how prohibitive it was to even buy a handset, in the name of communications is reserved for the rich. I love the debates. Without the debates we would not be this far in the ict sector. let us keep on sharing ideas. Communications is very vital to our life styles. I was in Havana Cuba recently for ten days and I thought I was in jail. I had to power down my telephone handsets and nobody knew where I was. Cubans are very nice people. The country may open up soon for communications. 'good week end James Rege On Oct 16, 2008, at 12:55 AM, eadera@idrc.or.ke wrote:
Anyone has taken the time to thoroughly study the secret behind Dubai's tremendous growth? (U.A.E in general). There are some useful lessons!
---- Original Message ---- From: j.maina@ymail.com To: eadera@idrc.or.ke Subject: Re: [kictanet] Fwd: PS Ndemo, ECONET Scandal aand Vested Interests Date: Wed, 15 Oct 2008 09:03:50 -0700 (PDT)
Lizette
I think that you have racially inclined your mind.
When did KENCALL directors become Kenyans? After getting good friends to bribe their way to this country. And let me tell you that the money the so called investors are using are Kenyan money not money from foreign banks.
They have come and borrowed from Kenyan banks. How much does the most profitable telecomms companies leave in this country, very small amount. We have Telecomms companies which are on their marks. They have very inferior systems and dont actually deliver in service but make billions and run away with the billions.
Dada Lizette, we know that there are Kenyans who are white, black
coloured and all but know that I am a mixed race Kenyan and really sad when our brotehrs have to suffer because of bad policies from people like PS > > JM > > > > ----- Original Message ---- > From: Lizette Kraft <lfkraft@gmail.com> > To: j.maina@ymail.com > Cc: KICTAnet ICT Policy Discussions <kictanet@lists.kictanet.or.ke> > Sent: Tuesday, October 14, 2008 1:52:07 PM > Subject: [kictanet] Fwd: PS Ndemo, ECONET Scandal aand Vested Interests > > > Just my two pennies worth here. > > Kenya is not an Island that it can survive on its own even through local investment. Most times we dont have the funds. I do agree though about the Government and banks not supporting local investors with loans etc. They must start giving them the opportunity to setup local expertise and turn them in money making ventures, if only they wouldn't fleece their own companies. Even America, the giant needs investors!!! You all have a valid point but use it for the best interests of Kenya and its people first and foremost. Not just self interest for the few. And by the way Kenyans come in all shapes, sizes, COLOURS, and creed. So please don't generalise who is kenyan and who is not!!! Kencall directors and owners are Kenyan and not outsiders if I understand correctly. When we are taxed whether individually or coorporately, the money is used for Kenya and Kenyans and not for outsiders who invested! Forcing local partnership in foreign owned companies has > its negative and positive effects. > This needs to be look at more seriously to make it a win-win situation. It has been known in the past that foreign investors with forced local partnership have been subjected to threats and intimidation by the local partners when they wanted more than their fare share, (given to them mind you). Thus the weariness o > of being forced now. This does not attract any investor. But the foreigners should not fleece the country either! > > Let us have some constructive critisism without being racially inclined. Fight to make things right no matter what but without pinpointing nationalities or colours of people. > > > > > On 10/7/08, John Maina <j.maina@ymail.com> wrote: > http://www.wananchiforums.com/showthread.php?p=3150#poest3150 > > _______________________________________________ > kictanet mailing list > kictanet@lists.kictanet.or.ke > http://lists.kictanet.or.ke/mailman/listinfo/kictanet > > This message was sent to: lfkraft@gmail.com > Unsubscribe or change your options at http://lists.kictanet.or.ke/mailman/options/kictanet/lfkraft%40gmail. com > > > > > -- > Lizette Kraft > P.O. Box 18488, 00500 > Nairobi, Kenya > Cell: 0722-800362 > > >
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participants (7)
-
alice -
eadera＠idrc.or.ke -
gachuhi anthony -
James Rege -
John Walubengo -
Joseph Manthi -
Wainaina Mungai