New subject: kictanet Digest, Vol 127, Issue 38

17 Dec 2017

      Question re standards...What are we modelling on?  Who is the standards
body in Silicon Valley?  Estonia? India? South Africa?  How does Google
hire in Kenya? Africa?  Facebook? Who were the ICT practitioners behind
mpesa? Ecitizen? Ushahidi? Etc. Were theya part of KEPSA? Is there a
country in the world where ALL private sector concerns have to go through a
single body to be legit/heard (China?)?  Is there a fantastic ICT skills
Kenyan person struggling to export said skill because of no standards ? Was
the Kictanet 100 days thingy for naught?

Yet to understand how this is not a solution looking for a problem.

But what do I know?

(don't run away)

Sent from my phone, brevity and typos expected.

On 17 Dec 2017 7:24 pm, <kictanet-request@lists.kictanet.or.ke> wrote:

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Today's Topics:

   1. Re: ict practitioners bill is back (Fiona Asonga)

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Message: 1
Date: Sun, 17 Dec 2017 19:20:41 +0300 (EAT)
From: Fiona Asonga <tespok@tespok.co.ke>
To: KICTAnet ICT Policy Discussions <kictanet@lists.kictanet.or.ke>
Subject: Re: [kictanet] ict practitioners bill is back
Message-ID:
        <124527082.64059.1513527641007.JavaMail.zimbra@tespok.co.ke>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8"

Dear Ali

You were with us at KEPSA Offices when we asked that KICATNET nominate
representatives to work with us on the ICT Practitioners Bill. Because we
want to achieve more as an industry we ave continues to work with your
representatives even on the Vision 2030 MTP III plan and other engagements
we have had with the ministry of ICT. It is not about KICTANET being a
member but being a partner and working with TESPOK, DRAKE, KITOS, BAKE,
ICTAK and any other ICT association.

The document we circulated through KEPSA to the Ministry and parliament
included KICATNET as part of KEPSA. You may need to reconsider your
statement to CS Mucheru. Secondly, the KEPSA partnership with KICTANET is
not compulsory. However, it is in the interest of achieving similar set
goals for the ICT sector as a whole. KICATNET is free to pull out of it at
any time just advise KEPSA secretariat on the same.

Together we can achieve more

Kind regards

----- Original Message -----

From: "Ali Hussein via kictanet" <kictanet@lists.kictanet.or.ke>
To: tespok@tespok.co.ke
Cc: "Ali Hussein" <ali@hussein.me.ke>
Sent: Sunday, December 17, 2017 3:11:02 PM
Subject: Re: [kictanet] ict practitioners bill is back

Dear Bwana CS

KICTANet NEVER asked KEPSA to handle engagements on our behalf. We engaged
KEPSA to work as a team. Period. Never, did we abdicate our
responsibilities to KEPSA because we are not KEPSA members. If KEPSA gave
you that belief then I'm afraid that you were misled. And KEPSA should
apologise for misleading you.

Ali Hussein

Principal

Hussein & Associates

T el: +254 713 60 1113

Twitter: @AliHKassim

Skype: abu-jomo

LinkedIn: http://ke.linkedin.com/in/alihkassim

13th Floor , Delta Towers, Oracle Wing,

Chiromo Road, Westlands,

Nairobi, Kenya.
Any information of a personal nature expressed in this email are purely
mine and do not necessarily reflect the official positions of the
organizations that I work with.

On Sun, Dec 17, 2017 at 4:53 PM, Joseph Mucheru via kictanet <
kictanet@lists.kictanet.or.ke > wrote:

Ali Hussein,

This is the reason I keep off this list. You are calling me a liar and yet
your team asked KEPSA to handle the engagements in this matter.

With all respect going forward let's follow the agreed engagements between
government and private sector.

Ahsante Sana!

JM

On 17 Dec 2017 11:17, "Ali Hussein via kictanet" <
kictanet@lists.kictanet.or.ke > wrote:

<blockquote>

Bwana CS

With all due respect. You are a senior government official and shouldn?t
peddle untruths.

KICTANet HAS NEVER BEEN PART OF KEPSA.

We have collaborated only once on the ICT BIll. Most of us don?t believe
KEPSA is representative of the wider ICT Industry.

We welcome dialogue with your ministry and KEPSA on this. We are happy to
be included in the conversation. We however CANNOT endorse a dialogue and
discussions we are not party to.

Ali Hussein
Principal
Hussein & Associates
+254 0713 601113

Twitter: @AliHKassim

Skype: abu-jomo

LinkedIn: http://ke.linkedin.com/in/alihkassim
"We are what we repeatedly do. Excellence, therefore, is not an act but a
habit." ~ Aristotle

Sent from my iPad

On 17 Dec 2017, at 9:04 AM, Julius Njiraini via kictanet <
kictanet@lists.kictanet.or.ke > wrote:

<blockquote>

Digital forensic expert is involved in investigation of fraud, abuse,
embezzlement, larceny, conversion of any digital device, records and
process. The report is supposed to be presented in courtroom and testify as
expert witness. He is also supposed to corroborate evidence with other
segment of crime scene using relevant laws including evidence act, criminal
procedures code and cyber crime laws as best international laws in other
countries
On Dec 17, 2017 8:32 AM, "Julius Njiraini" < njiraini2001@gmail.com > wrote:

<blockquote>

Thanks for your enlightenment. Am just concerned about new emerging fields
like information security and forensics which is mainly concerned with
digital cyber crime and evidence presentation in courtroom. These is
especially concerns for computer security and forensics professionals
On Dec 17, 2017 6:12 AM, "Joseph Mucheru via kictanet" <
kictanet@lists.kictanet.or.ke > wrote:

<blockquote>

The absence of dialogue and relying on media reports is a recipe for
discord. The current views, sentiments and concerns raised in the group are
justified only because there is no dialogue. Kicktanet is part of KEPSA who
we are in constant dialogue even on this topic. Going forward, the need to
dialogue through the agreed channels is key;

So let me try and give a position on where we are;

    * I did state that we will need a Practitioners Bill and even clarified
to media it would not be the current one
    * There is currently NO Bill in parliament. The last one lapsed and we
would need to start afresh
    * The bill identified a need/gap in our sector that requires some
action, especially since ICT is at the heart of the Governments development
agenda
    * The Industry was opposed with the method/solutions proposed by the
Bill but not the fact there is a gap
    * Other Industries have self regulating bodies and if our sector is to
grow, we need to get organised and set this up. Why should government have
to do it?
    * We are exporting our skills regionally and internationally and a need
to standardise and demonstrate our skills is key. This is because we are
not working in isolation, we are competing with other countries and Kenya
must be able to demonstrate consistent and quality skills -- today we are
blacklisted on various online jobs platforms because of a few bad apples,
while we know we have some of the best talents, we are also losing tenders
and business because we have not conformed to specific international
standards and so the rating of our products/services falls short. (KBS is
working on the standards)

And for the accusations...

    * It was a private members bill and not sponsored by Government (We
opposed it in its current form - you know that, otherwise google it).
    * Responding to questions from the sector does not amount to a
"roadside decision", considering the level of engagement we have had on
this issue
    * The Government is there to serve the people of Kenya and not just the
sector in isolation
    * Skills Rating systems used by platforms such as Kuhastle.com ,
upwork.com ., cloudfactory.com , monster.com ..etc are examples of ways
people are able to build and demonstrate skills both technical and otherwise
    * I have had engagements on this topic with KEPSA ( ICT Sector
Committee ) - Mike Macharia being the Chair
    * I saw in social media many of you opposed to ICTAK being enjoined in
the supreme court presidential petition, but none came out (Kicktanet
included) to support/represent the sector, which was at the heart of the
dispute. At the very least ICTAK was willing to come forward.
    * Similar to the Law Society, The Supreme Court should have chosen the
ICT experts from the ICT Industry body?

My advice would be for the sector to take the lead and suggest how this
need/gap of "SKILLS RATING" standards etc.. can be addressed. We are on the
same side. If industry does not take the lead, then Government will step
in. As it stands, industry has various bodies and you need to agree on how
to engage amongst yourselves. We are going to be successful and so let us
push in the same direction.

Finally, today the official engagement between government and the ICT
sector is through KEPSA . (KICTAnet, TESPOK, KITOS etc.. are members and
even when we engaged on the ICT Practitioners bill, the sector was
represented by KEPSA, when we met MPs).

The last discussion on Tuesday 14th December 2017 between KEPSA and the
Ministry covered the following topics;

    1. ICT Policy
    2. Kick-off Industry meetings
    3. Bills / Opinions - ICT Practitioners Bill
    4. PDTP + Ajira Digital (Jobs)
    5. Flagship Projects
    6. Constituency Development Hubs
    7. ICTA Engagement with Counties
    8. Enterprise Kenya
    9. Blockchain
Thank you!

On Sun, Dec 17, 2017 at 3:07 AM, Andrew Alston via kictanet <
kictanet@lists.kictanet.or.ke > wrote:

<blockquote>

Hi All,

So ? having seen an article in the standardmedia in which elements of what
I stated below were quoted ? and to which there seem to have been responses
? I now need to comment further:

(Article found at: https://www.standardmedia.co.ke/business/article/
2001263257/techies-oppose-move-to-introduce-new-ict-watchdog )

Mucheru, however, denies that the Bill will lock out experts without formal
training insisting the reverse will be the case. ?This Bill will benefit
the people who have been working in technical capacity for years but have
not acquired certificates,? he explained. ?If they can demonstrate their
proficiency to the Institute then they can get certified and widen the
scope of jobs they can bid or apply for.?

So ? I have a question ? What will be the method of demonstrating
proficiency and how will this be tested ? and what will it cost ? and how
long will it take.

Now ? let me break the questions down a bit

    1. The ICT field is vast ? are you going to test proficiency in
programming? In networking? In security? In database administration? In
desktop support? In Linux? Freebsd? Microsoft? Solaris? AIX? What is the
test going to be ? and who is going to administer these tests
    2. What makes an industry body more capable of testing proficiency than
Cisco, Juniper, Huawei or any of the other vendors ? the bill does * NOT *
cater for industry standard certification outside of formal education ? it
simply is not in there ? and if you are not going to accept these and are
going to have this industry body determine proficiency ? we need to know
how this will be done and how the people testing proficiency will be
qualified to do it ? and in what fields they are qualified to test
proficiency.
    3. What is the cost of this testing of proficiency ? does an individual
who has certified as a CCIE at the cost of thousands ? and in some cases
tens of thousands ? of dollars suddenly need to pay more to demonstrate
something that he has clearly already demonstrated? Who will it be paid
for? How will the money be utilized? Will this be included in the license
fee for the first year? Or will this suddenly cost extra so someone can
make some money?
    4. How does does it take to ?demonstrate proficiency? ? and if I bring
in someone from outside to train my staff in a new field of technology ? is
he going to be made to sit some kind of exam? Or pay some kind of fee
before he can upskill Kenyans? Because ? lets be real ? that is not going
to happen ? it will be the death of bringing in people to impart knowledge.

Let me be blunt ? more than half the authors of the RFC?s within the IETF
would not qualify under the bill as it stands ? this means they would have
to ?demonstrate? their proficiency ? despite the fact that they have their
names on Internet standards ? and if people expect these individuals to sit
exams or prove to people that they know what they are doing ? despite the
knowledge having been clearly demonstrated (which is why they are being
flown in in the first place, to train Kenyans in skills that are not
available in the country so that those Kenyans can continue to further
upskill and lift up the industry) ? you can kiss goodbye to having cutting
edge people coming into this country ? it simply won?t happen ? and it will
be Kenya that loses out.

Then to comment on this:

Mucheru adds that the Government has held several engagements with
practitioners in the sector on the provisions of the Bill.

Correct ? there was massive engagement ? and the bill was largely defeated
after the industry said it was broken ? after people on this list said it
was broken ? after it was slammed left right and centre ? so yes ? there
was engagement ? but the article is wrong about the fact that the
engagement agreed that this bill in its current form was a good idea or
represented the correct solution.

?There was consensus that we need to establish a professional body to
regulate the industry,? he said.

I have no problem with the concept of a professional body ? I have major
problems with forcing a situation where people who have potentially decades
of experience have to suddenly ?prove? their skills via some entirely
undefined means at some undefined cost to a bunch of people who may or may
not have anywhere close to the experience or knowledge of the person being
tested. If we said that we had a professional body that people could
register to ? and they needed to be registered ? and in the event of
substantiated complaints the individual could be deregistered and
blacklisted ? I would have no problem. It is the arbitrary and
unsubstantiated and undefined criteria for registration that I take
exception to ? and that I believe could result in expensive legal
challenges.

Please ? do not get me wrong ? I do not begrudge anyone who has a desire to
genuinely root out the bad apples and clean up the industry and remove scam
artists and fraudsters. I think that is a noble and pure objective that
should be pursued. I however dispute the fact that this bill is the right
way to go about it ? and I dispute the fact that university degrees have
anything to do with competence in this industry ? particularly with the
rate that technology evolves ? because an individual doing a 3 year degree
who is learning specific technologies in his first year ? by the time he
graduates ? those technologies are history ? and when he walks into the
industry ? he is having to self study it all again ANYWAY. Let me give you
examples of technologies that did not exist a year ago in any real form:

    1. Segment routing ? the foundation of network routing going forward
and the replacement to MPLS ? how do I know this ? because I?ve had my
hands in crafting the specifications and doing a lot of the beta testing
for it ? so who is going to test proficiency here ? it changes the game ?
and the only people qualified to teach it ? or gauge the proficiency in it
? do not themselves qualify under this bill to be registered.
    2. Network telemetry processing ? first introduced in limited form in
Q3 2015 ? and only now becoming main stream ? but within a year of it being
main stream ? it will replace standard network monitoring entirely ? who is
going to teach that with a university degree?
    3. Which university degree teaches BGP? BGP-LU? ISIS? Network
segmentation? IPv6 addressing?

The list is endless ? these are things that cannot be learnt through a
degree ? they are learnt through industry standard certification or
self-skilling by reading documentation.

So, Mr Mucheru ? please ? do not read me wrong ? I have tremendous respect
for the regulator in this country ? and it is testament to how well the
Kenyan industry and the regulatory environment here works that today ?
Kenya has higher average mobile broadband speeds than either the US or
South Africa or a lot of other places. It is testament to the regulatory
environment here that we have the high-speed networks we do ? and that the
pricing is as low as it is ? because the industry is competitive and open
and innovative. This list of things the regulator has gotten right in this
country is long - I do however plead with you, the bill as it stands would
break the industry that all of us ? yourself ? myself ? and so many others
have worked so hard to build. I am NOT against a professional body ? I am
NOT against formalizing things ? but I beg you ? do not walk down the road
of this current bill in its current form ? it will be death to this
industry in this country.

Andrew Alston

From: Andrew Alston < Andrew.Alston@liquidtelecom.com >
Date: Monday, 4 December 2017 at 01:24
To: KICTAnet ICT Policy Discussions < kictanet@lists.kictanet.or.ke >
Cc: Liz Wanjiru < lizwanjiru@gmail.com >
Subject: RE: [kictanet] ict practitioners bill is back

I have to say ? personally I cannot think of a worse piece of legislation
that I have seen in recent history.

Let us look at the net effects of this and the problems with it:

    1. Large companies bring in consultants or external people where
necessary to supplement capacity, to train and upskill Kenyan staff etc,
while those guys are here, even for a week or two, they are compensated,
and my reading of this bill is ? this would be illegal ? because you?d have
to get every consultant you bring in accredited and licensed first ? which
is impractical in the extreme
    2. The list of highly skilled people with 20+ years experience who
would not qualify for accreditation under this bill is extensive, globally
and within Kenya ? this bill completely stops any form of knowledge
transfer from those individuals and in fact will force a situation where
Kenyan?s who wish to learn from some of the biggest names in the industry
would be forced to go internationally to get that knowledge, rather than
bringing those people in to train locally
    3. It forces Kenyans who have spent years learning and honing their
skills without university qualifications out of work and could well result
in large scale job losses looking at the number of highly skilled
individuals I know of who are working without qualifications
    4. It prevents private companies from making what are normal business
decisions ? who they hire and who they pay. That is problematic in the
extreme ? in any normal situation if a private company hires staff that
don?t perform ? those staff either get fired or the market rejects the
company and the company disappears ? standard market dynamics ? in this
case ? if a company finds extremely talented people they may be forced into
a position where they have to hire less skilled people because someone
can?t meet some accreditation requirement.
    5. The bill has no recognition of prior experience ? no recognition of
those who have published papers and are world recognized experts ? does not
specify what the ?recognized? universities are ? does not take into account
industry standard certification (CISSP/CCNA/CCIE/CCDP/JNCIE/JNCIP/JNCIA,
the list is endless)
    6. May well end up in the constitutional court when it deprives a host
of people who have spent their lives working in this industry and have no
other options for a career of the ability to earn a living

The bill relies on the belief that a university qualification some how
makes you better than those without ? it?s reasoning that has been
disproved globally for years and years and years ? and it flies in the face
of the global industry and the way the ICT industry has worked since the
day it began. It is damaging to the industry in Kenya ? it is damaging to
the growth prospects of the economy as a result ? it is damaging to the
people of Kenya ? and it will destroy the position that Kenya is in as one
of the leaders of the ICT industry on the continent (Kenya already has the
highest average broadband speeds on the continent and significantly better
ICT infrastructure than you will find even in South Africa ? it is doing so
well ? why break a system that is proving functional?)

I really hope this does not pass ? and if it does ? will be curious to see
the court challenges and how they play out ? but I think this is madness
personally ? and in the name of stopping a few bad individuals ? penalizes
the entire country and will destroy an industry that employs thousands.

Andrew

From: kictanet [mailto: kictanet-bounces+andrew.alston =
liquidtelecom.com@lists.kictanet.or.ke ] On Behalf Of Liz Wanjiru via
kictanet
Sent: 04 December 2017 06:43
To: Andrew Alston < Andrew.Alston@liquidtelecom.com >
Cc: Liz Wanjiru < lizwanjiru@gmail.com >
Subject: Re: [kictanet] ict practitioners bill is back

Hi,

While trying to push such laws shouldn't they be looking at credentialing
people without formal ICT schooling but have the experience, knowledge and
skills to back them? These people have talent and positively contribute in
the industry. Some countries have learning institutions credentialing
professionals based on their body of work and so long as they can
demonstrate this they are awarded the degrees or other government approved
certifications. Here is an example of such

Link

Liz

On Mon, Dec 4, 2017 at 3:18 PM, Ahmed Mohamed Maawy via kictanet <
kictanet@lists.kictanet.or.ke > wrote:
<blockquote>

I wonder how some of the ground breaking technology companies - such as for
instance Google Kenya, can operate if this bill is passed.

On Sun, Dec 3, 2017 at 4:57 PM, Watila Alex via kictanet <
kictanet@lists.kictanet.or.ke > wrote:

<blockquote>

EricKigada: Kenya?s controversial ICT Practitioners Bill 2016 to be tabled
in parliament again
techmoran.com/kenyas-controv ?
https://twitter.com/EricKigada/status/937309893954031616

Sent from Yahoo Mail on Android

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