Re: [kictanet] Day 5 - Statistics on Affordability- CCKInternetStudyReport
Looks like we are looking to issues around the last mile for which a whole mesh of possibilities, actors and services must be considered, planned for and provided. If monopolies continue, forget lower prices and affordability! The governemnt is right in looking to provide the super highway and so it ought. And in doing so it is in its purview to take any loans from any development banks that it can get and at reasonably low interest rates. My only concern is that the AfDB is nowhere in sight or is it? With such high ROI on th continent from ICT investments as I am told where is the AfDB playing? Some one pls tell me or indeed the national dev banks? Are they any to speak of? O just for news; the Nigerian ICT community is celebrating the hand over of managemnt of the top level domain name .ng to nigerians! Cheers from hot and humid Lagos, FE ----- Original Message ---- From: alice <alice@apc.org> To: feanywhere@yahoo.co.uk Sent: Monday, 7 May, 2007 11:08:31 AM Subject: Re: [kictanet] Day 5 - Statistics on Affordability- CCKInternetStudyReport Dear all Talking about government’s engagement in infrastructure development, the Malaysian government, for example was one of the first to attempt to replicate the Silicon Valley model in a developing country. “In its attempt to move the ICT sector to attract domestic and foreign private investment, the Malaysian government invested in creating a world class physical and information infrastructure. Called the Multimedia Super Corridor, this USD 40 billion initiative now serves as the backbone for the country’s information superhighway. The network is supported by a high-speed link, which connects to Japan, ASEAN, the US and Europe. The network is also capable of supporting extensive public, education and business applications”. Beyond infrastructure, the Malaysian government provides attractive tax incentives for world-class technology-led companies to participate in the MSC initiative. And most importantly, it launched actions to provide a well-educated work force with relevant skill levels ranging from technical to research. I see nothing wrong with the Kenya government investing in infrastructure for public good, while private sector supporting this venture by perhaps focusing on the infrastructure as well, technology aspect, content, applications, skills, civil society assisting by ensuring there is demand at the local/rural level, etc The idea here being partnerships. We do seriously need to consider strategies for partnerships, which would involve leveraging the creative potential of the different actors, allowing them to work on the basis of both established as well as new roles and responsibilities. That implies sharing of resources and responsibilities (sharing not shifting risks). For this to happen there is need to ensure that there is sufficient mutual respect and trust between partners to enable them to work together. (The above comments are is entirely personal and do not reflect any position of the organisations I am affiliated with) alice Kai U. Wulff wrote:
Well,
If you tender the capacity you require in Garissa, we will quote a price and commit a deployment of fiber.
Kai
-----Original Message----- From: kictanet-bounces+kai.wulff=kdn.co.ke@kictanet.or.ke [mailto:kictanet-bounces+kai.wulff=kdn.co.ke@kictanet.or.ke] On Behalf Of bitange@jambo.co.ke Sent: Monday, May 07, 2007 18:10 To: kai.wulff@kdn.co.ke Subject: Re: [kictanet] Day 5 - Statistics on Affordability- CCKInternetStudyReport
Dear All, Please do not be misled. The Government will never compete with anybody. All that is being done is to develop a platform where big and small can reasonably compete. I think Kai is confusing Telkom projects and Government infrastructure projects. If the private sector indeed wanted to do infrastructure projects they will have done so but most private sector have to have a business case first. I wonder why Kai did not do the Garisa route first before heading to Uganda. Please understand that Government has the obligation to provide infrastructure.
Regards
Bitange Ndemo.
My point is:
Yu have limited room for infrastructure since the cost is constant and only increased usage can drop the price. The Government should NOT be a competitor but a price sensitive user!
You will have enough people now competing for the business of the Government and the private users .. That forces prices down. Having a state owned cable or a state owned Telkom is in my opinion not the way forward.
Rgds
Kai
-----Original Message----- From: kictanet-bounces+kai.wulff=kdn.co.ke@kictanet.or.ke [mailto:kictanet-bounces+kai.wulff=kdn.co.ke@kictanet.or.ke] On Behalf Of Wainaina Mungai Sent: Saturday, May 05, 2007 10:35 To: kai.wulff@kdn.co.ke Subject: Re: [kictanet] Day 5 - Statistics on Affordability- CCKInternetStudyReport
Kai said;
The problem is when you create the demand and then some World Bank money starts to compete before you can recover the cost.. ...The private sector needs the Government as a user there as well as the private companies and consumers. [Only then will the prices drop!]
Pricing I would like to assume that competition from government is as good as competition from other market players. The beauty of competition is in the way it forces the private sector to put a smile on the face of every consumer ;-) so as to guarantee revenue. I am convinced that a significant drop in prices results only from fierce competition and some degree of regulation. TESPOK and others fought for years to introduce competition which resulted in the current lower prices of internet and telephony services.
The recent intervention of CCK on the pricing of mobile services is a case that proves that price controls may become necessary to protect consumers. For internet services, we need many 'small scale' providers whose products and pricing would be more market-driven and responsive to fluctuations in consumer needs.
For instance, an internet user paying KShs. 6,000 per month for DSL per month is actually incurring 14 cents per minute for a 30-day month. This is a great deal for any 24 hour user who may even make money through such access to the internet. The same user would be said to incur 28 cents per minute if s/he were to use the link for an average 12 hours per day at the same monthly rate. There may be a catch here but there is a high probability that more businesses can survive on such low rates and pass such rates down to rural consumer.
--- Wainaina Mungai http://www.madeinkenya.org
SUSTAINABLE DEVELOPMENT is development that meets the needs of the present without compromising the ability of future generations to meet their own needs.
FROM: kictanet-bounces+kai.wulff=kdn.co.ke@kictanet.or.ke [mailto:kictanet-bounces+kai.wulff=kdn.co.ke@kictanet.or.ke] ON BEHALF OF Rebecca Wanjiku SENT: Friday, May 04, 2007 10:23 TO: kai.wulff@kdn.co.ke SUBJECT: [kictanet] Day 5 - Statistics on Affordability - CCKInternetStudyReport
thanks Kai for the response, we need many people responding to this issue,
in my opinion, the government should find a way of using the WB money through the private sector, so that the private sector does not see as if the government is competing and killing the profit margin,
in this regard, the government could come up with some MOU with the private sector so that some of the money invested is government's and
some
PS. that way, part of the profits will be ploughed back (it will be mandatory)
i remember during the OFC workshop, Kai shared how IFC funded a private secotor consortium to carry out some survey at USD 300k and a similar survey carried out by govts was valued at USD 3m
maybe this can help reduce costs and provide a way for govt and PS to work together and deliver quality market services, develop the content
and
all..
its just an opinion, its not absolute,
lets hear as many voices as possible, it is at these forums/discussions that great ideas come up,
regards
_KAI WULFF <KAI.WULFF@KDN.CO.KE>_ wrote:
Hello,
we leave it to the ISPs to create the demand. We were hoping that with our rural initiatives, like connecting schools and showing them how to educate the parents (and make money with this) will increase the demand on a natural way.
What we have seen wit some Rural BTS, it takes about 12 month until it is
break even ...
The problem is when you create the demand and then some World Bank money starts to compete before you can recover the cost. It is my strong believe that wherever a device can be operated, there WILL be a market. The private sector needs the Government as a user there as well as the private companies and consumers. Only then will the prices drop! We still focus too much on
the INTERNET, what most people need for a start is LOCAL information and communication .. so I would say: 90% local IP traffic and 10% international ..
Kai
----- Original Message ----- From: "Joan Walumbe" To: Sent: Thursday, May 03, 2007 10:26 Subject: Re: [kictanet] Day 5 - Statistics on Affordability - CCKInternetStudy Report
Walu,
I agree with you that affordablity is a factor especially for rural communities when it comes to access to the internet. But I think that lack of awareness is an even bigger factor. It's fine for the urban folk (who already recognise the benefits to the internet etc.) taking a short break in shags to have the internet access when back home, but it there is no demand for the internet among the residents what is the point?
So does KDN enter a market and then hope to create demand or is their a market that demands the service or is it a little of both?
I understand that Kai would not be venturing into the rural areas if it
did not make any financial sense. Can anyone provide some info/statistics on demand for internet access in rural areas?
Joan Walumbe
----- Original Message ----- From: "John Walubengo" To: Sent: Thursday, May 03, 2007 9:01 AM Subject: [kictanet] Day 5 - Statistics on Affordability - CCK InternetStudy Report
Day 5- Statistics on Affordability.
I acknowledge an interesting thread filtering in on Trust relationships
b/w IGOs/ISPs...feel free to continue contributing on that as well as on today's theme on affordability (multi-tasking encouraged by internet technologies ...)
and just to pick up from Kai's projection of KDN fiber hitting Bungoma in early August 2007. This would be quite a welcome and timely development, but at what cost to the consumer? To what extend will the (internet) services be affordable to the rural/average communities?
Affordability is a subjective term gven that what is considered cheap by the Bill Gates of this world is probably not so for the average Kenyan on the street. In trying to get an objective measurement for affordability, the Report pegged it on the national average incomes. In other words, if the monthly average income in Kenya is around 100USD and if the average monthly cost for internet access is also around 100USD then obviously the average Kenyan will not bother with accessing the Internet - it just becomes way beyond their means or too expensive or not affordable.
The report indicated that access through the more convenient Internet Dial-up/Desktop services costed over 200% the average incomes (too expensive), while the same access through mobile phones was costing just 8% of the average incomes (quite affordable). What needs to be done in order to make Internet Services more afforable to Kenyans?
1 day deliberation on this one.
walu.
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Tel. 254 720 318 925
blog:http://beckyit.blogspot.com/
--------------------
Ahhh...imagining that irresistible "new car" smell? Check out [LINK:
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3oDMTE1YW1jcXJ2BF9TAzk3MTA3MDc2BHNlYwNtYWlsdGFncwRzbGsDbmV3LWNhcnM-]
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Florence, AfDB is locked into EASSy and has left other DFIs to finance Terrestrial networks. You are very right on the Government's involvement. This is the model that was followed by Sweden and as Alice noted, Malaysia. To be honest the private sector in ICT sector has not lived up to the expectations. Check Mombasa Nairobi Fibre link where the prices are still over the roof yet there are two players there. Does anyone need reason why we need to have more players running on the Government built network? Our private sector must embrace low prices but high volume concept. Think of the idle capacity that lay on the route yet there is business. Regards Bitange Ndemo.
Looks like we are looking to issues around the last mile for which a whole mesh of possibilities, actors and services must be considered, planned for and provided. If monopolies continue, forget lower prices and affordability! The governemnt is right in looking to provide the super highway and so it ought. And in doing so it is in its purview to take any loans from any development banks that it can get and at reasonably low interest rates. My only concern is that the AfDB is nowhere in sight or is it? With such high ROI on th continent from ICT investments as I am told where is the AfDB playing? Some one pls tell me or indeed the national dev banks? Are they any to speak of?
O just for news; the Nigerian ICT community is celebrating the hand over of managemnt of the top level domain name .ng to nigerians!
Cheers from hot and humid Lagos, FE
----- Original Message ---- From: alice <alice@apc.org> To: feanywhere@yahoo.co.uk Sent: Monday, 7 May, 2007 11:08:31 AM Subject: Re: [kictanet] Day 5 - Statistics on Affordability- CCKInternetStudyReport
Dear all
Talking about governments engagement in infrastructure development, the Malaysian government, for example was one of the first to attempt to replicate the Silicon Valley model in a developing country. In its attempt to move the ICT sector to attract domestic and foreign private investment, the Malaysian government invested in creating a world class physical and information infrastructure. Called the Multimedia Super Corridor, this USD 40 billion initiative now serves as the backbone for the countrys information superhighway. The network is supported by a high-speed link, which connects to Japan, ASEAN, the US and Europe. The network is also capable of supporting extensive public, education and business applications. Beyond infrastructure, the Malaysian government provides attractive tax incentives for world-class technology-led companies to participate in the MSC initiative. And most importantly, it launched actions to provide a well-educated work force with relevant skill levels ranging from technical to research.
I see nothing wrong with the Kenya government investing in infrastructure for public good, while private sector supporting this venture by perhaps focusing on the infrastructure as well, technology aspect, content, applications, skills, civil society assisting by ensuring there is demand at the local/rural level, etc
The idea here being partnerships. We do seriously need to consider strategies for partnerships, which would involve leveraging the creative potential of the different actors, allowing them to work on the basis of both established as well as new roles and responsibilities. That implies sharing of resources and responsibilities (sharing not shifting risks). For this to happen there is need to ensure that there is sufficient mutual respect and trust between partners to enable them to work together.
(The above comments are is entirely personal and do not reflect any position of the organisations I am affiliated with) alice
Kai U. Wulff wrote:
Well,
If you tender the capacity you require in Garissa, we will quote a price and commit a deployment of fiber.
Kai
-----Original Message----- From: kictanet-bounces+kai.wulff=kdn.co.ke@kictanet.or.ke [mailto:kictanet-bounces+kai.wulff=kdn.co.ke@kictanet.or.ke] On Behalf Of bitange@jambo.co.ke Sent: Monday, May 07, 2007 18:10 To: kai.wulff@kdn.co.ke Subject: Re: [kictanet] Day 5 - Statistics on Affordability- CCKInternetStudyReport
Dear All, Please do not be misled. The Government will never compete with anybody. All that is being done is to develop a platform where big and small can reasonably compete. I think Kai is confusing Telkom projects and Government infrastructure projects. If the private sector indeed wanted to do infrastructure projects they will have done so but most private sector have to have a business case first. I wonder why Kai did not do the Garisa route first before heading to Uganda. Please understand that Government has the obligation to provide infrastructure.
Regards
Bitange Ndemo.
My point is:
Yu have limited room for infrastructure since the cost is constant and only increased usage can drop the price. The Government should NOT be a competitor but a price sensitive user!
You will have enough people now competing for the business of the Government and the private users .. That forces prices down. Having a state owned cable or a state owned Telkom is in my opinion not the way forward.
Rgds
Kai
-----Original Message----- From: kictanet-bounces+kai.wulff=kdn.co.ke@kictanet.or.ke [mailto:kictanet-bounces+kai.wulff=kdn.co.ke@kictanet.or.ke] On Behalf Of Wainaina Mungai Sent: Saturday, May 05, 2007 10:35 To: kai.wulff@kdn.co.ke Subject: Re: [kictanet] Day 5 - Statistics on Affordability- CCKInternetStudyReport
Kai said;
The problem is when you create the demand and then some World Bank money starts to compete before you can recover the cost.. ...The private sector needs the Government as a user there as well as the private companies and consumers. [Only then will the prices drop!]
Pricing I would like to assume that competition from government is as good as competition from other market players. The beauty of competition is in the way it forces the private sector to put a smile on the face of every consumer ;-) so as to guarantee revenue. I am convinced that a significant drop in prices results only from fierce competition and some degree of regulation. TESPOK and others fought for years to introduce competition which resulted in the current lower prices of internet and telephony services.
The recent intervention of CCK on the pricing of mobile services is a case that proves that price controls may become necessary to protect consumers. For internet services, we need many 'small scale' providers whose products and pricing would be more market-driven and responsive to fluctuations in consumer needs.
For instance, an internet user paying KShs. 6,000 per month for DSL per month is actually incurring 14 cents per minute for a 30-day month. This is a great deal for any 24 hour user who may even make money through such access to the internet. The same user would be said to incur 28 cents per minute if s/he were to use the link for an average 12 hours per day at the same monthly rate. There may be a catch here but there is a high probability that more businesses can survive on such low rates and pass such rates down to rural consumer.
--- Wainaina Mungai http://www.madeinkenya.org
SUSTAINABLE DEVELOPMENT is development that meets the needs of the present without compromising the ability of future generations to meet their own needs.
FROM: kictanet-bounces+kai.wulff=kdn.co.ke@kictanet.or.ke [mailto:kictanet-bounces+kai.wulff=kdn.co.ke@kictanet.or.ke] ON BEHALF OF Rebecca Wanjiku SENT: Friday, May 04, 2007 10:23 TO: kai.wulff@kdn.co.ke SUBJECT: [kictanet] Day 5 - Statistics on Affordability - CCKInternetStudyReport
thanks Kai for the response, we need many people responding to this issue,
in my opinion, the government should find a way of using the WB money through the private sector, so that the private sector does not see as if the government is competing and killing the profit margin,
in this regard, the government could come up with some MOU with the private sector so that some of the money invested is government's and
some
PS. that way, part of the profits will be ploughed back (it will be mandatory)
i remember during the OFC workshop, Kai shared how IFC funded a private secotor consortium to carry out some survey at USD 300k and a similar survey carried out by govts was valued at USD 3m
maybe this can help reduce costs and provide a way for govt and PS to work together and deliver quality market services, develop the content
and
all..
its just an opinion, its not absolute,
lets hear as many voices as possible, it is at these forums/discussions that great ideas come up,
regards
_KAI WULFF <KAI.WULFF@KDN.CO.KE>_ wrote:
Hello,
we leave it to the ISPs to create the demand. We were hoping that with our rural initiatives, like connecting schools and showing them how to educate the parents (and make money with this) will increase the demand on a natural way.
What we have seen wit some Rural BTS, it takes about 12 month until it is
break even ...
The problem is when you create the demand and then some World Bank money starts to compete before you can recover the cost. It is my strong believe that wherever a device can be operated, there WILL be a market. The private sector needs the Government as a user there as well as the private companies and consumers. Only then will the prices drop! We still focus too much on
the INTERNET, what most people need for a start is LOCAL information and communication .. so I would say: 90% local IP traffic and 10% international ..
Kai
----- Original Message ----- From: "Joan Walumbe" To: Sent: Thursday, May 03, 2007 10:26 Subject: Re: [kictanet] Day 5 - Statistics on Affordability - CCKInternetStudy Report
Walu,
I agree with you that affordablity is a factor especially for rural communities when it comes to access to the internet. But I think that lack of awareness is an even bigger factor. It's fine for the urban folk (who already recognise the benefits to the internet etc.) taking a short break in shags to have the internet access when back home, but it there is no demand for the internet among the residents what is the point?
So does KDN enter a market and then hope to create demand or is their a market that demands the service or is it a little of both?
I understand that Kai would not be venturing into the rural areas if it
did not make any financial sense. Can anyone provide some info/statistics on demand for internet access in rural areas?
Joan Walumbe
----- Original Message ----- From: "John Walubengo" To: Sent: Thursday, May 03, 2007 9:01 AM Subject: [kictanet] Day 5 - Statistics on Affordability - CCK InternetStudy Report
Day 5- Statistics on Affordability.
I acknowledge an interesting thread filtering in on Trust relationships
b/w IGOs/ISPs...feel free to continue contributing on that as well as on today's theme on affordability (multi-tasking encouraged by internet technologies ...)
and just to pick up from Kai's projection of KDN fiber hitting Bungoma in early August 2007. This would be quite a welcome and timely development, but at what cost to the consumer? To what extend will the (internet) services be affordable to the rural/average communities?
Affordability is a subjective term gven that what is considered cheap by the Bill Gates of this world is probably not so for the average Kenyan on the street. In trying to get an objective measurement for affordability, the Report pegged it on the national average incomes. In other words, if the monthly average income in Kenya is around 100USD and if the average monthly cost for internet access is also around 100USD then obviously the average Kenyan will not bother with accessing the Internet - it just becomes way beyond their means or too expensive or not affordable.
The report indicated that access through the more convenient Internet Dial-up/Desktop services costed over 200% the average incomes (too expensive), while the same access through mobile phones was costing just 8% of the average incomes (quite affordable). What needs to be done in order to make Internet Services more afforable to Kenyans?
1 day deliberation on this one.
walu.
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Rebecca Wanjiku, journalist, p.o box 33515, Nairobi.00600 Kenya.
Tel. 254 720 318 925
blog:http://beckyit.blogspot.com/
--------------------
Ahhh...imagining that irresistible "new car" smell? Check out [LINK:
http://us.rd.yahoo.com/evt=48245/*http:/autos.yahoo.com/new_cars.html;_ylc=X
3oDMTE1YW1jcXJ2BF9TAzk3MTA3MDc2BHNlYwNtYWlsdGFncwRzbGsDbmV3LWNhcnM-]
new cars at Yahoo! Autos. -------------------- _______________________________________________ kictanet mailing list [LINK: compose.php?to=kictanet@kictanet.or.ke] kictanet@kictanet.or.ke [LINK: http://kictanet.or.ke/mailman/listinfo/kictanet] http://kictanet.or.ke/mailman/listinfo/kictanet
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Agree Dr. Ndemo, it should be about partnerships. Where the focus again is on sharing rather than shifting risks. best regards alice bitange@jambo.co.ke wrote:
Florence, AfDB is locked into EASSy and has left other DFIs to finance Terrestrial networks. You are very right on the Government's involvement. This is the model that was followed by Sweden and as Alice noted, Malaysia. To be honest the private sector in ICT sector has not lived up to the expectations. Check Mombasa Nairobi Fibre link where the prices are still over the roof yet there are two players there. Does anyone need reason why we need to have more players running on the Government built network? Our private sector must embrace low prices but high volume concept. Think of the idle capacity that lay on the route yet there is business.
Regards
Bitange Ndemo.
Looks like we are looking to issues around the last mile for which a whole mesh of possibilities, actors and services must be considered, planned for and provided. If monopolies continue, forget lower prices and affordability! The governemnt is right in looking to provide the super highway and so it ought. And in doing so it is in its purview to take any loans from any development banks that it can get and at reasonably low interest rates. My only concern is that the AfDB is nowhere in sight or is it? With such high ROI on th continent from ICT investments as I am told where is the AfDB playing? Some one pls tell me or indeed the national dev banks? Are they any to speak of?
O just for news; the Nigerian ICT community is celebrating the hand over of managemnt of the top level domain name .ng to nigerians!
Cheers from hot and humid Lagos, FE
----- Original Message ---- From: alice <alice@apc.org> To: feanywhere@yahoo.co.uk Sent: Monday, 7 May, 2007 11:08:31 AM Subject: Re: [kictanet] Day 5 - Statistics on Affordability- CCKInternetStudyReport
Dear all
Talking about government’s engagement in infrastructure development, the Malaysian government, for example was one of the first to attempt to replicate the Silicon Valley model in a developing country. “In its attempt to move the ICT sector to attract domestic and foreign private investment, the Malaysian government invested in creating a world class physical and information infrastructure. Called the Multimedia Super Corridor, this USD 40 billion initiative now serves as the backbone for the country’s information superhighway. The network is supported by a high-speed link, which connects to Japan, ASEAN, the US and Europe. The network is also capable of supporting extensive public, education and business applications”. Beyond infrastructure, the Malaysian government provides attractive tax incentives for world-class technology-led companies to participate in the MSC initiative. And most importantly, it launched actions to provide a well-educated work force with relevant skill levels ranging from technical to research.
I see nothing wrong with the Kenya government investing in infrastructure for public good, while private sector supporting this venture by perhaps focusing on the infrastructure as well, technology aspect, content, applications, skills, civil society assisting by ensuring there is demand at the local/rural level, etc
The idea here being partnerships. We do seriously need to consider strategies for partnerships, which would involve leveraging the creative potential of the different actors, allowing them to work on the basis of both established as well as new roles and responsibilities. That implies sharing of resources and responsibilities (sharing not shifting risks). For this to happen there is need to ensure that there is sufficient mutual respect and trust between partners to enable them to work together.
(The above comments are is entirely personal and do not reflect any position of the organisations I am affiliated with) alice
Kai U. Wulff wrote:
Well,
If you tender the capacity you require in Garissa, we will quote a price and commit a deployment of fiber.
Kai
-----Original Message----- From: kictanet-bounces+kai.wulff=kdn.co.ke@kictanet.or.ke [mailto:kictanet-bounces+kai.wulff=kdn.co.ke@kictanet.or.ke] On Behalf Of bitange@jambo.co.ke Sent: Monday, May 07, 2007 18:10 To: kai.wulff@kdn.co.ke Subject: Re: [kictanet] Day 5 - Statistics on Affordability- CCKInternetStudyReport
Dear All, Please do not be misled. The Government will never compete with anybody. All that is being done is to develop a platform where big and small can reasonably compete. I think Kai is confusing Telkom projects and Government infrastructure projects. If the private sector indeed wanted to do infrastructure projects they will have done so but most private sector have to have a business case first. I wonder why Kai did not do the Garisa route first before heading to Uganda. Please understand that Government has the obligation to provide infrastructure.
Regards
Bitange Ndemo.
My point is:
Yu have limited room for infrastructure since the cost is constant and only increased usage can drop the price. The Government should NOT be a competitor but a price sensitive user!
You will have enough people now competing for the business of the Government and the private users .. That forces prices down. Having a state owned cable or a state owned Telkom is in my opinion not the way forward.
Rgds
Kai
-----Original Message----- From: kictanet-bounces+kai.wulff=kdn.co.ke@kictanet.or.ke [mailto:kictanet-bounces+kai.wulff=kdn.co.ke@kictanet.or.ke] On Behalf Of Wainaina Mungai Sent: Saturday, May 05, 2007 10:35 To: kai.wulff@kdn.co.ke Subject: Re: [kictanet] Day 5 - Statistics on Affordability- CCKInternetStudyReport
Kai said;
The problem is when you create the demand and then some World Bank money starts to compete before you can recover the cost.. ...The private sector needs the Government as a user there as well as the private companies and consumers. [Only then will the prices drop!]
Pricing I would like to assume that competition from government is as good as competition from other market players. The beauty of competition is in the way it forces the private sector to put a smile on the face of every consumer ;-) so as to guarantee revenue. I am convinced that a significant drop in prices results only from fierce competition and some degree of regulation. TESPOK and others fought for years to introduce competition which resulted in the current lower prices of internet and telephony services.
The recent intervention of CCK on the pricing of mobile services is a case that proves that price controls may become necessary to protect consumers. For internet services, we need many 'small scale' providers whose products and pricing would be more market-driven and responsive to fluctuations in consumer needs.
For instance, an internet user paying KShs. 6,000 per month for DSL per month is actually incurring 14 cents per minute for a 30-day month. This is a great deal for any 24 hour user who may even make money through such access to the internet. The same user would be said to incur 28 cents per minute if s/he were to use the link for an average 12 hours per day at the same monthly rate. There may be a catch here but there is a high probability that more businesses can survive on such low rates and pass such rates down to rural consumer.
--- Wainaina Mungai http://www.madeinkenya.org
SUSTAINABLE DEVELOPMENT is development that meets the needs of the present without compromising the ability of future generations to meet their own needs.
FROM: kictanet-bounces+kai.wulff=kdn.co.ke@kictanet.or.ke [mailto:kictanet-bounces+kai.wulff=kdn.co.ke@kictanet.or.ke] ON BEHALF OF Rebecca Wanjiku SENT: Friday, May 04, 2007 10:23 TO: kai.wulff@kdn.co.ke SUBJECT: [kictanet] Day 5 - Statistics on Affordability - CCKInternetStudyReport
thanks Kai for the response, we need many people responding to this issue,
in my opinion, the government should find a way of using the WB money through the private sector, so that the private sector does not see as if the government is competing and killing the profit margin,
in this regard, the government could come up with some MOU with the private sector so that some of the money invested is government's and
some
PS. that way, part of the profits will be ploughed back (it will be mandatory)
i remember during the OFC workshop, Kai shared how IFC funded a private secotor consortium to carry out some survey at USD 300k and a similar survey carried out by govts was valued at USD 3m
maybe this can help reduce costs and provide a way for govt and PS to work together and deliver quality market services, develop the content
and
all..
its just an opinion, its not absolute,
lets hear as many voices as possible, it is at these forums/discussions that great ideas come up,
regards
_KAI WULFF <KAI.WULFF@KDN.CO.KE>_ wrote:
Hello,
we leave it to the ISPs to create the demand. We were hoping that with our rural initiatives, like connecting schools and showing them how to educate the parents (and make money with this) will increase the demand on a natural way.
What we have seen wit some Rural BTS, it takes about 12 month until it is
break even ...
The problem is when you create the demand and then some World Bank money starts to compete before you can recover the cost. It is my strong believe that wherever a device can be operated, there WILL be a market. The private sector needs the Government as a user there as well as the private companies and consumers. Only then will the prices drop! We still focus too much on
the INTERNET, what most people need for a start is LOCAL information and communication .. so I would say: 90% local IP traffic and 10% international ..
Kai
----- Original Message ----- From: "Joan Walumbe" To: Sent: Thursday, May 03, 2007 10:26 Subject: Re: [kictanet] Day 5 - Statistics on Affordability - CCKInternetStudy Report
Walu,
I agree with you that affordablity is a factor especially for rural communities when it comes to access to the internet. But I think that lack of awareness is an even bigger factor. It's fine for the urban folk (who already recognise the benefits to the internet etc.) taking a short break in shags to have the internet access when back home, but it there is no demand for the internet among the residents what is the point?
So does KDN enter a market and then hope to create demand or is their a market that demands the service or is it a little of both?
I understand that Kai would not be venturing into the rural areas if it
did not make any financial sense. Can anyone provide some info/statistics on demand for internet access in rural areas?
Joan Walumbe
----- Original Message ----- From: "John Walubengo" To: Sent: Thursday, May 03, 2007 9:01 AM Subject: [kictanet] Day 5 - Statistics on Affordability - CCK InternetStudy Report
Day 5- Statistics on Affordability.
I acknowledge an interesting thread filtering in on Trust relationships
b/w IGOs/ISPs...feel free to continue contributing on that as well as on today's theme on affordability (multi-tasking encouraged by internet technologies ...)
and just to pick up from Kai's projection of KDN fiber hitting Bungoma in early August 2007. This would be quite a welcome and timely development, but at what cost to the consumer? To what extend will the (internet) services be affordable to the rural/average communities?
Affordability is a subjective term gven that what is considered cheap by the Bill Gates of this world is probably not so for the average Kenyan on the street. In trying to get an objective measurement for affordability, the Report pegged it on the national average incomes. In other words, if the monthly average income in Kenya is around 100USD and if the average monthly cost for internet access is also around 100USD then obviously the average Kenyan will not bother with accessing the Internet - it just becomes way beyond their means or too expensive or not affordable.
The report indicated that access through the more convenient Internet Dial-up/Desktop services costed over 200% the average incomes (too expensive), while the same access through mobile phones was costing just 8% of the average incomes (quite affordable). What needs to be done in order to make Internet Services more afforable to Kenyans?
1 day deliberation on this one.
walu.
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Tel. 254 720 318 925
blog:http://beckyit.blogspot.com/
--------------------
Ahhh...imagining that irresistible "new car" smell? Check out [LINK:
http://us.rd.yahoo.com/evt=48245/*http:/autos.yahoo.com/new_cars.html;_ylc=X
3oDMTE1YW1jcXJ2BF9TAzk3MTA3MDc2BHNlYwNtYWlsdGFncwRzbGsDbmV3LWNhcnM-]
new cars at Yahoo! Autos. -------------------- _______________________________________________ kictanet mailing list [LINK: compose.php?to=kictanet@kictanet.or.ke] kictanet@kictanet.or.ke [LINK: http://kictanet.or.ke/mailman/listinfo/kictanet] http://kictanet.or.ke/mailman/listinfo/kictanet
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As mentioned, the price on fiber is a function of usage. The current prices we charge are substantially lower than anything that was there before and are moving downwards. If we had more users (maybe even the Government using it), we could reduce further .. ----- Original Message ----- From: <bitange@jambo.co.ke> To: <kai.wulff@kdn.co.ke> Sent: Friday, May 11, 2007 09:08 Subject: Re: [kictanet] Day 5 - Statistics on Affordability- CCKInternetStudyReport Florence, AfDB is locked into EASSy and has left other DFIs to finance Terrestrial networks. You are very right on the Government's involvement. This is the model that was followed by Sweden and as Alice noted, Malaysia. To be honest the private sector in ICT sector has not lived up to the expectations. Check Mombasa Nairobi Fibre link where the prices are still over the roof yet there are two players there. Does anyone need reason why we need to have more players running on the Government built network? Our private sector must embrace low prices but high volume concept. Think of the idle capacity that lay on the route yet there is business. Regards Bitange Ndemo.
Looks like we are looking to issues around the last mile for which a whole mesh of possibilities, actors and services must be considered, planned for and provided. If monopolies continue, forget lower prices and affordability! The governemnt is right in looking to provide the super highway and so it ought. And in doing so it is in its purview to take any loans from any development banks that it can get and at reasonably low interest rates. My only concern is that the AfDB is nowhere in sight or is it? With such high ROI on th continent from ICT investments as I am told where is the AfDB playing? Some one pls tell me or indeed the national dev banks? Are they any to speak of?
O just for news; the Nigerian ICT community is celebrating the hand over of managemnt of the top level domain name .ng to nigerians!
Cheers from hot and humid Lagos, FE
----- Original Message ---- From: alice <alice@apc.org> To: feanywhere@yahoo.co.uk Sent: Monday, 7 May, 2007 11:08:31 AM Subject: Re: [kictanet] Day 5 - Statistics on Affordability- CCKInternetStudyReport
Dear all
Talking about government's engagement in infrastructure development, the Malaysian government, for example was one of the first to attempt to replicate the Silicon Valley model in a developing country. "In its attempt to move the ICT sector to attract domestic and foreign private investment, the Malaysian government invested in creating a world class physical and information infrastructure. Called the Multimedia Super Corridor, this USD 40 billion initiative now serves as the backbone for the country's information superhighway. The network is supported by a high-speed link, which connects to Japan, ASEAN, the US and Europe. The network is also capable of supporting extensive public, education and business applications". Beyond infrastructure, the Malaysian government provides attractive tax incentives for world-class technology-led companies to participate in the MSC initiative. And most importantly, it launched actions to provide a well-educated work force with relevant skill levels ranging from technical to research.
I see nothing wrong with the Kenya government investing in infrastructure for public good, while private sector supporting this venture by perhaps focusing on the infrastructure as well, technology aspect, content, applications, skills, civil society assisting by ensuring there is demand at the local/rural level, etc
The idea here being partnerships. We do seriously need to consider strategies for partnerships, which would involve leveraging the creative potential of the different actors, allowing them to work on the basis of both established as well as new roles and responsibilities. That implies sharing of resources and responsibilities (sharing not shifting risks). For this to happen there is need to ensure that there is sufficient mutual respect and trust between partners to enable them to work together.
(The above comments are is entirely personal and do not reflect any position of the organisations I am affiliated with) alice
Kai U. Wulff wrote:
Well,
If you tender the capacity you require in Garissa, we will quote a price and commit a deployment of fiber.
Kai
-----Original Message----- From: kictanet-bounces+kai.wulff=kdn.co.ke@kictanet.or.ke [mailto:kictanet-bounces+kai.wulff=kdn.co.ke@kictanet.or.ke] On Behalf Of bitange@jambo.co.ke Sent: Monday, May 07, 2007 18:10 To: kai.wulff@kdn.co.ke Subject: Re: [kictanet] Day 5 - Statistics on Affordability- CCKInternetStudyReport
Dear All, Please do not be misled. The Government will never compete with anybody. All that is being done is to develop a platform where big and small can reasonably compete. I think Kai is confusing Telkom projects and Government infrastructure projects. If the private sector indeed wanted to do infrastructure projects they will have done so but most private sector have to have a business case first. I wonder why Kai did not do the Garisa route first before heading to Uganda. Please understand that Government has the obligation to provide infrastructure.
Regards
Bitange Ndemo.
My point is:
Yu have limited room for infrastructure since the cost is constant and only increased usage can drop the price. The Government should NOT be a competitor but a price sensitive user!
You will have enough people now competing for the business of the Government and the private users .. That forces prices down. Having a state owned cable or a state owned Telkom is in my opinion not the way forward.
Rgds
Kai
-----Original Message----- From: kictanet-bounces+kai.wulff=kdn.co.ke@kictanet.or.ke [mailto:kictanet-bounces+kai.wulff=kdn.co.ke@kictanet.or.ke] On Behalf Of Wainaina Mungai Sent: Saturday, May 05, 2007 10:35 To: kai.wulff@kdn.co.ke Subject: Re: [kictanet] Day 5 - Statistics on Affordability- CCKInternetStudyReport
Kai said;
The problem is when you create the demand and then some World Bank money starts to compete before you can recover the cost.. ...The private sector needs the Government as a user there as well as the private companies and consumers. [Only then will the prices drop!]
Pricing I would like to assume that competition from government is as good as competition from other market players. The beauty of competition is in the way it forces the private sector to put a smile on the face of every consumer ;-) so as to guarantee revenue. I am convinced that a significant drop in prices results only from fierce competition and some degree of regulation. TESPOK and others fought for years to introduce competition which resulted in the current lower prices of internet and telephony services.
The recent intervention of CCK on the pricing of mobile services is a case that proves that price controls may become necessary to protect consumers. For internet services, we need many 'small scale' providers whose products and pricing would be more market-driven and responsive to fluctuations in consumer needs.
For instance, an internet user paying KShs. 6,000 per month for DSL per month is actually incurring 14 cents per minute for a 30-day month. This is a great deal for any 24 hour user who may even make money through such access to the internet. The same user would be said to incur 28 cents per minute if s/he were to use the link for an average 12 hours per day at the same monthly rate. There may be a catch here but there is a high probability that more businesses can survive on such low rates and pass such rates down to rural consumer.
--- Wainaina Mungai http://www.madeinkenya.org
SUSTAINABLE DEVELOPMENT is development that meets the needs of the present without compromising the ability of future generations to meet their own needs.
FROM: kictanet-bounces+kai.wulff=kdn.co.ke@kictanet.or.ke [mailto:kictanet-bounces+kai.wulff=kdn.co.ke@kictanet.or.ke] ON BEHALF OF Rebecca Wanjiku SENT: Friday, May 04, 2007 10:23 TO: kai.wulff@kdn.co.ke SUBJECT: [kictanet] Day 5 - Statistics on Affordability - CCKInternetStudyReport
thanks Kai for the response, we need many people responding to this issue,
in my opinion, the government should find a way of using the WB money through the private sector, so that the private sector does not see as if the government is competing and killing the profit margin,
in this regard, the government could come up with some MOU with the private sector so that some of the money invested is government's and
some
PS. that way, part of the profits will be ploughed back (it will be mandatory)
i remember during the OFC workshop, Kai shared how IFC funded a private secotor consortium to carry out some survey at USD 300k and a similar survey carried out by govts was valued at USD 3m
maybe this can help reduce costs and provide a way for govt and PS to work together and deliver quality market services, develop the content
and
all..
its just an opinion, its not absolute,
lets hear as many voices as possible, it is at these forums/discussions that great ideas come up,
regards
_KAI WULFF <KAI.WULFF@KDN.CO.KE>_ wrote:
Hello,
we leave it to the ISPs to create the demand. We were hoping that with our rural initiatives, like connecting schools and showing them how to educate the parents (and make money with this) will increase the demand on a natural way.
What we have seen wit some Rural BTS, it takes about 12 month until it is
break even ...
The problem is when you create the demand and then some World Bank money starts to compete before you can recover the cost. It is my strong believe that wherever a device can be operated, there WILL be a market. The private sector needs the Government as a user there as well as the private companies and consumers. Only then will the prices drop! We still focus too much on
the INTERNET, what most people need for a start is LOCAL information and communication .. so I would say: 90% local IP traffic and 10% international ..
Kai
----- Original Message ----- From: "Joan Walumbe" To: Sent: Thursday, May 03, 2007 10:26 Subject: Re: [kictanet] Day 5 - Statistics on Affordability - CCKInternetStudy Report
Walu,
I agree with you that affordablity is a factor especially for rural communities when it comes to access to the internet. But I think that lack of awareness is an even bigger factor. It's fine for the urban folk (who already recognise the benefits to the internet etc.) taking a short break in shags to have the internet access when back home, but it there is no demand for the internet among the residents what is the point?
So does KDN enter a market and then hope to create demand or is their a market that demands the service or is it a little of both?
I understand that Kai would not be venturing into the rural areas if it
did not make any financial sense. Can anyone provide some info/statistics on demand for internet access in rural areas?
Joan Walumbe
----- Original Message ----- From: "John Walubengo" To: Sent: Thursday, May 03, 2007 9:01 AM Subject: [kictanet] Day 5 - Statistics on Affordability - CCK InternetStudy Report
Day 5- Statistics on Affordability.
I acknowledge an interesting thread filtering in on Trust relationships
b/w IGOs/ISPs...feel free to continue contributing on that as well as on today's theme on affordability (multi-tasking encouraged by internet technologies ...)
and just to pick up from Kai's projection of KDN fiber hitting Bungoma in early August 2007. This would be quite a welcome and timely development, but at what cost to the consumer? To what extend will the (internet) services be affordable to the rural/average communities?
Affordability is a subjective term gven that what is considered cheap by the Bill Gates of this world is probably not so for the average Kenyan on the street. In trying to get an objective measurement for affordability, the Report pegged it on the national average incomes. In other words, if the monthly average income in Kenya is around 100USD and if the average monthly cost for internet access is also around 100USD then obviously the average Kenyan will not bother with accessing the Internet - it just becomes way beyond their means or too expensive or not affordable.
The report indicated that access through the more convenient Internet Dial-up/Desktop services costed over 200% the average incomes (too expensive), while the same access through mobile phones was costing just 8% of the average incomes (quite affordable). What needs to be done in order to make Internet Services more afforable to Kenyans?
1 day deliberation on this one.
walu.
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Rebecca Wanjiku, journalist, p.o box 33515, Nairobi.00600 Kenya.
Tel. 254 720 318 925
blog:http://beckyit.blogspot.com/
--------------------
Ahhh...imagining that irresistible "new car" smell? Check out [LINK:
http://us.rd.yahoo.com/evt=48245/*http:/autos.yahoo.com/new_cars.html;_ylc=X
3oDMTE1YW1jcXJ2BF9TAzk3MTA3MDc2BHNlYwNtYWlsdGFncwRzbGsDbmV3LWNhcnM-]
new cars at Yahoo! Autos. -------------------- _______________________________________________ kictanet mailing list [LINK: compose.php?to=kictanet@kictanet.or.ke] kictanet@kictanet.or.ke [LINK: http://kictanet.or.ke/mailman/listinfo/kictanet] http://kictanet.or.ke/mailman/listinfo/kictanet
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Kai, i dont want to belittle the business element but really it is a chicken and egg situation, do u reduce drastically down and get more users or ascertain more users to reduce drastically. If there is empirical evidence of much much more traffic then i think KDN would obvious reduce the price to take advantage of volume. Not knowing what is on the ground i think this particular case becomes a business and or government excercise so it would be good if we can take this off a public forum and then get the parties working out the mechanics. Eric here On 11 May 2007, at 09:47, Kai Wulff wrote:
As mentioned, the price on fiber is a function of usage. The current prices we charge are substantially lower than anything that was there before and are moving downwards. If we had more users (maybe even the Government using it), we could reduce further ..
----- Original Message ----- From: <bitange@jambo.co.ke> To: <kai.wulff@kdn.co.ke> Sent: Friday, May 11, 2007 09:08 Subject: Re: [kictanet] Day 5 - Statistics on Affordability- CCKInternetStudyReport
Florence, AfDB is locked into EASSy and has left other DFIs to finance Terrestrial networks. You are very right on the Government's involvement. This is the model that was followed by Sweden and as Alice noted, Malaysia. To be honest the private sector in ICT sector has not lived up to the expectations. Check Mombasa Nairobi Fibre link where the prices are still over the roof yet there are two players there. Does anyone need reason why we need to have more players running on the Government built network? Our private sector must embrace low prices but high volume concept. Think of the idle capacity that lay on the route yet there is business.
Regards
Bitange Ndemo.
Looks like we are looking to issues around the last mile for which a whole mesh of possibilities, actors and services must be considered, planned for and provided. If monopolies continue, forget lower prices and affordability! The governemnt is right in looking to provide the super highway and so it ought. And in doing so it is in its purview to take any loans from any development banks that it can get and at reasonably low interest rates. My only concern is that the AfDB is nowhere in sight or is it? With such high ROI on th continent from ICT investments as I am told where is the AfDB playing? Some one pls tell me or indeed the national dev banks? Are they any to speak of?
O just for news; the Nigerian ICT community is celebrating the hand over of managemnt of the top level domain name .ng to nigerians!
Cheers from hot and humid Lagos, FE
----- Original Message ---- From: alice <alice@apc.org> To: feanywhere@yahoo.co.uk Sent: Monday, 7 May, 2007 11:08:31 AM Subject: Re: [kictanet] Day 5 - Statistics on Affordability- CCKInternetStudyReport
Dear all
Talking about government's engagement in infrastructure development, the Malaysian government, for example was one of the first to attempt to replicate the Silicon Valley model in a developing country. "In its attempt to move the ICT sector to attract domestic and foreign private investment, the Malaysian government invested in creating a world class physical and information infrastructure. Called the Multimedia Super Corridor, this USD 40 billion initiative now serves as the backbone for the country's information superhighway. The network is supported by a high-speed link, which connects to Japan, ASEAN, the US and Europe. The network is also capable of supporting extensive public, education and business applications". Beyond infrastructure, the Malaysian government provides attractive tax incentives for world-class technology-led companies to participate in the MSC initiative. And most importantly, it launched actions to provide a well-educated work force with relevant skill levels ranging from technical to research.
I see nothing wrong with the Kenya government investing in infrastructure for public good, while private sector supporting this venture by perhaps focusing on the infrastructure as well, technology aspect, content, applications, skills, civil society assisting by ensuring there is demand at the local/rural level, etc
The idea here being partnerships. We do seriously need to consider strategies for partnerships, which would involve leveraging the creative potential of the different actors, allowing them to work on the basis of both established as well as new roles and responsibilities. That implies sharing of resources and responsibilities (sharing not shifting risks). For this to happen there is need to ensure that there is sufficient mutual respect and trust between partners to enable them to work together.
(The above comments are is entirely personal and do not reflect any position of the organisations I am affiliated with) alice
Kai U. Wulff wrote:
Well,
If you tender the capacity you require in Garissa, we will quote a price and commit a deployment of fiber.
Kai
-----Original Message----- From: kictanet-bounces+kai.wulff=kdn.co.ke@kictanet.or.ke [mailto:kictanet-bounces+kai.wulff=kdn.co.ke@kictanet.or.ke] On Behalf Of bitange@jambo.co.ke Sent: Monday, May 07, 2007 18:10 To: kai.wulff@kdn.co.ke Subject: Re: [kictanet] Day 5 - Statistics on Affordability- CCKInternetStudyReport
Dear All, Please do not be misled. The Government will never compete with anybody. All that is being done is to develop a platform where big and small can reasonably compete. I think Kai is confusing Telkom projects and Government infrastructure projects. If the private sector indeed wanted to do infrastructure projects they will have done so but most private sector have to have a business case first. I wonder why Kai did not do the Garisa route first before heading to Uganda. Please understand that Government has the obligation to provide infrastructure.
Regards
Bitange Ndemo.
My point is:
Yu have limited room for infrastructure since the cost is constant and only increased usage can drop the price. The Government should NOT be a competitor but a price sensitive user!
You will have enough people now competing for the business of the Government and the private users .. That forces prices down. Having a state owned cable or a state owned Telkom is in my opinion not the way forward.
Rgds
Kai
-----Original Message----- From: kictanet-bounces+kai.wulff=kdn.co.ke@kictanet.or.ke [mailto:kictanet-bounces+kai.wulff=kdn.co.ke@kictanet.or.ke] On Behalf Of Wainaina Mungai Sent: Saturday, May 05, 2007 10:35 To: kai.wulff@kdn.co.ke Subject: Re: [kictanet] Day 5 - Statistics on Affordability- CCKInternetStudyReport
Kai said;
The problem is when you create the demand and then some World Bank money starts to compete before you can recover the cost.. ...The private sector needs the Government as a user there as well as the private companies and consumers. [Only then will the prices drop!]
Pricing I would like to assume that competition from government is as good as competition from other market players. The beauty of competition is in the way it forces the private sector to put a smile on the face of every consumer ;-) so as to guarantee revenue. I am convinced that a significant drop in prices results only from fierce competition and some degree of regulation. TESPOK and others fought for years to introduce competition which resulted in the current lower prices of internet and telephony services.
The recent intervention of CCK on the pricing of mobile services is a case that proves that price controls may become necessary to protect consumers. For internet services, we need many 'small scale' providers whose products and pricing would be more market-driven and responsive to fluctuations in consumer needs.
For instance, an internet user paying KShs. 6,000 per month for DSL per month is actually incurring 14 cents per minute for a 30-day month. This is a great deal for any 24 hour user who may even make money through such access to the internet. The same user would be said to incur 28 cents per minute if s/he were to use the link for an average 12 hours per day at the same monthly rate. There may be a catch here but there is a high probability that more businesses can survive on such low rates and pass such rates down to rural consumer.
--- Wainaina Mungai http://www.madeinkenya.org
SUSTAINABLE DEVELOPMENT is development that meets the needs of the present without compromising the ability of future generations to meet their own needs.
FROM: kictanet-bounces+kai.wulff=kdn.co.ke@kictanet.or.ke [mailto:kictanet-bounces+kai.wulff=kdn.co.ke@kictanet.or.ke] ON BEHALF OF Rebecca Wanjiku SENT: Friday, May 04, 2007 10:23 TO: kai.wulff@kdn.co.ke SUBJECT: [kictanet] Day 5 - Statistics on Affordability - CCKInternetStudyReport
thanks Kai for the response, we need many people responding to this issue,
in my opinion, the government should find a way of using the WB money through the private sector, so that the private sector does not see as if the government is competing and killing the profit margin,
in this regard, the government could come up with some MOU with the private sector so that some of the money invested is government's and
some
PS. that way, part of the profits will be ploughed back (it will be mandatory)
i remember during the OFC workshop, Kai shared how IFC funded a private secotor consortium to carry out some survey at USD 300k and a similar survey carried out by govts was valued at USD 3m
maybe this can help reduce costs and provide a way for govt and PS to work together and deliver quality market services, develop the content
and
all..
its just an opinion, its not absolute,
lets hear as many voices as possible, it is at these forums/discussions that great ideas come up,
regards
_KAI WULFF <KAI.WULFF@KDN.CO.KE>_ wrote:
Hello,
we leave it to the ISPs to create the demand. We were hoping that with our rural initiatives, like connecting schools and showing them how to educate the parents (and make money with this) will increase the demand on a natural way.
What we have seen wit some Rural BTS, it takes about 12 month until it is
break even ...
The problem is when you create the demand and then some World Bank money starts to compete before you can recover the cost. It is my strong believe that wherever a device can be operated, there WILL be a market. The private sector needs the Government as a user there as well as the private companies and consumers. Only then will the prices drop! We still focus too much on
the INTERNET, what most people need for a start is LOCAL information and communication .. so I would say: 90% local IP traffic and 10% international ..
Kai
----- Original Message ----- From: "Joan Walumbe" To: Sent: Thursday, May 03, 2007 10:26 Subject: Re: [kictanet] Day 5 - Statistics on Affordability - CCKInternetStudy Report
Walu,
I agree with you that affordablity is a factor especially for rural communities when it comes to access to the internet. But I think that lack of awareness is an even bigger factor. It's fine for the urban folk (who already recognise the benefits to the internet etc.) taking a short break in shags to have the internet access when back home, but it there is no demand for the internet among the residents what is the point?
So does KDN enter a market and then hope to create demand or is their a market that demands the service or is it a little of both?
I understand that Kai would not be venturing into the rural areas if it
did not make any financial sense. Can anyone provide some info/statistics on demand for internet access in rural areas?
Joan Walumbe
----- Original Message ----- From: "John Walubengo" To: Sent: Thursday, May 03, 2007 9:01 AM Subject: [kictanet] Day 5 - Statistics on Affordability - CCK InternetStudy Report
Day 5- Statistics on Affordability.
I acknowledge an interesting thread filtering in on Trust relationships
b/w IGOs/ISPs...feel free to continue contributing on that as well as on today's theme on affordability (multi-tasking encouraged by internet technologies ...)
and just to pick up from Kai's projection of KDN fiber hitting Bungoma in early August 2007. This would be quite a welcome and timely development, but at what cost to the consumer? To what extend will the (internet) services be affordable to the rural/average communities?
Affordability is a subjective term gven that what is considered cheap by the Bill Gates of this world is probably not so for the average Kenyan on the street. In trying to get an objective measurement for affordability, the Report pegged it on the national average incomes. In other words, if the monthly average income in Kenya is around 100USD and if the average monthly cost for internet access is also around 100USD then obviously the average Kenyan will not bother with accessing the Internet - it just becomes way beyond their means or too expensive or not affordable.
The report indicated that access through the more convenient Internet Dial-up/Desktop services costed over 200% the average incomes (too expensive), while the same access through mobile phones was costing just 8% of the average incomes (quite affordable). What needs to be done in order to make Internet Services more afforable to Kenyans?
1 day deliberation on this one.
walu.
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Eric M.K Osiakwan Executive Secretary AfrISPA (www.afrispa.org) Tel: + 233.21.258800 ext 2031 Fax: + 233.21.258811 Cell: + 233.244.386792 Handle: eosiakwan Snail Mail: Pmb 208, Accra-North Office: BusyInternet - 42 Ring Road Central, Accra-North Blog: http://blogs.law.harvard.edu/eric/ Slang: "Tomorrow Now"
[Eric, You have spoken like three wise men. I too hope it could a public, transparent, reliable communications infrastructure debate (broadcast live TV) that will educate and prepare Kenyans on imminent connectivity transformation which will also boost demand.] Submission: For the first time, this report has given consumers a starting point in addressing connectivity constraining causes and we commend the CCK for undertaking it. We have always known technology wonders but without addressing infrastructural access constraints causes, then to the ordinay folks, all that technological marvels is just but techies 'speaking in tongues' . Perhaps Parliamentary select committee on ICT should be involved on a pro-active mode regarding connectivity, besides their traditional summons to investigate foregone industry issues. Media reports suggest they are interested (Do we exclude them and talk among ourselves?) Commend the local consultants team for the professional study and report presentation. CCK should consider engaging them to shed light on the "demand-side" (consumers). Whoever undertakes that study be assured of "open access" to our content, because this has been our domain for some quite time. Everyone has a role to play in realising benefits from Kenya's liberalised telecoms sector if and when we accept and internalise the saying, "the world has enough for everything that lives on it, but not enough for one greedy person." Otherwise the abuse of dominant industry positions will continue to frustrate connectivity and consumers which in turn holds back equitable prosperity. Consumers would have had a more institutional contribution to this debate, but we are now assured that the registration delay is nearly resolved now. In the meantime "consumers" will do thank you ;-) and "JR" salute! Alex On 5/11/07, Eric Osiakwan <eric@afrispa.org> wrote:
Kai, i dont want to belittle the business element but really it is a chicken and egg situation, do u reduce drastically down and get more users or ascertain more users to reduce drastically.
If there is empirical evidence of much much more traffic then i think KDN would obvious reduce the price to take advantage of volume.
Not knowing what is on the ground i think this particular case becomes a business and or government excercise so it would be good if we can take this off a public forum and then get the parties working out the mechanics.
Eric here
On 11 May 2007, at 09:47, Kai Wulff wrote:
As mentioned, the price on fiber is a function of usage. The current prices we charge are substantially lower than anything that was there before and are moving downwards. If we had more users (maybe even the Government using it), we could reduce further ..
----- Original Message ----- From: <bitange@jambo.co.ke> To: <kai.wulff@kdn.co.ke> Sent: Friday, May 11, 2007 09:08 Subject: Re: [kictanet] Day 5 - Statistics on Affordability- CCKInternetStudyReport
Florence, AfDB is locked into EASSy and has left other DFIs to finance Terrestrial networks. You are very right on the Government's involvement. This is the model that was followed by Sweden and as Alice noted, Malaysia. To be honest the private sector in ICT sector has not lived up to the expectations. Check Mombasa Nairobi Fibre link where the prices are still over the roof yet there are two players there. Does anyone need reason why we need to have more players running on the Government built network? Our private sector must embrace low prices but high volume concept. Think of the idle capacity that lay on the route yet there is business.
Regards
Bitange Ndemo.
Looks like we are looking to issues around the last mile for which a whole mesh of possibilities, actors and services must be considered, planned for and provided. If monopolies continue, forget lower prices and affordability! The governemnt is right in looking to provide the super highway and so it ought. And in doing so it is in its purview to take any loans from any development banks that it can get and at reasonably low interest rates. My only concern is that the AfDB is nowhere in sight or is it? With such high ROI on th continent from ICT investments as I am told where is the AfDB playing? Some one pls tell me or indeed the national dev banks? Are they any to speak of?
O just for news; the Nigerian ICT community is celebrating the hand over of managemnt of the top level domain name .ng to nigerians!
Cheers from hot and humid Lagos, FE
----- Original Message ---- From: alice <alice@apc.org> To: feanywhere@yahoo.co.uk Sent: Monday, 7 May, 2007 11:08:31 AM Subject: Re: [kictanet] Day 5 - Statistics on Affordability- CCKInternetStudyReport
Dear all
Talking about government's engagement in infrastructure development, the Malaysian government, for example was one of the first to attempt to replicate the Silicon Valley model in a developing country. "In its attempt to move the ICT sector to attract domestic and foreign private investment, the Malaysian government invested in creating a world class physical and information infrastructure. Called the Multimedia Super Corridor, this USD 40 billion initiative now serves as the backbone for the country's information superhighway. The network is supported by a high-speed link, which connects to Japan, ASEAN, the US and Europe. The network is also capable of supporting extensive public, education and business applications". Beyond infrastructure, the Malaysian government provides attractive tax incentives for world-class technology-led companies to participate in the MSC initiative. And most importantly, it launched actions to provide a well-educated work force with relevant skill levels ranging from technical to research.
I see nothing wrong with the Kenya government investing in infrastructure for public good, while private sector supporting this venture by perhaps focusing on the infrastructure as well, technology aspect, content, applications, skills, civil society assisting by ensuring there is demand at the local/rural level, etc
The idea here being partnerships. We do seriously need to consider strategies for partnerships, which would involve leveraging the creative potential of the different actors, allowing them to work on the basis of both established as well as new roles and responsibilities. That implies sharing of resources and responsibilities (sharing not shifting risks). For this to happen there is need to ensure that there is sufficient mutual respect and trust between partners to enable them to work together.
(The above comments are is entirely personal and do not reflect any position of the organisations I am affiliated with) alice
Kai U. Wulff wrote:
Well,
If you tender the capacity you require in Garissa, we will quote a price and commit a deployment of fiber.
Kai
-----Original Message----- From: kictanet-bounces+kai.wulff=kdn.co.ke@kictanet.or.ke [mailto:kictanet-bounces <kictanet-bounces>+kai.wulff= kdn.co.ke@kictanet.or.ke] On Behalf Of bitange@jambo.co.ke Sent: Monday, May 07, 2007 18:10 To: kai.wulff@kdn.co.ke Subject: Re: [kictanet] Day 5 - Statistics on Affordability- CCKInternetStudyReport
Dear All, Please do not be misled. The Government will never compete with anybody. All that is being done is to develop a platform where big and small can reasonably compete. I think Kai is confusing Telkom projects and Government infrastructure projects. If the private sector indeed wanted to do infrastructure projects they will have done so but most private sector have to have a business case first. I wonder why Kai did not do the Garisa route first before heading to Uganda. Please understand that Government has the obligation to provide infrastructure.
Regards
Bitange Ndemo.
My point is:
Yu have limited room for infrastructure since the cost is constant and only increased usage can drop the price. The Government should NOT be a competitor but a price sensitive user!
You will have enough people now competing for the business of the Government and the private users .. That forces prices down. Having a state owned cable or a state owned Telkom is in my opinion not the way forward.
Rgds
Kai
-----Original Message----- From: kictanet-bounces+kai.wulff=kdn.co.ke@kictanet.or.ke [mailto:kictanet-bounces <kictanet-bounces>+kai.wulff= kdn.co.ke@kictanet.or.ke] On Behalf Of Wainaina Mungai Sent: Saturday, May 05, 2007 10:35 To: kai.wulff@kdn.co.ke Subject: Re: [kictanet] Day 5 - Statistics on Affordability- CCKInternetStudyReport
Kai said;
The problem is when you create the demand and then some World Bank money starts to compete before you can recover the cost.. ...The private sector needs the Government as a user there as well as the private companies and consumers. [Only then will the prices drop!]
Pricing I would like to assume that competition from government is as good as competition from other market players. The beauty of competition is in the way it forces the private sector to put a smile on the face of every consumer ;-) so as to guarantee revenue. I am convinced that a significant drop in prices results only from fierce competition and some degree of regulation. TESPOK and others fought for years to introduce competition which resulted in the current lower prices of internet and telephony services.
The recent intervention of CCK on the pricing of mobile services is a case that proves that price controls may become necessary to protect consumers. For internet services, we need many 'small scale' providers whose products and pricing would be more market-driven and responsive to fluctuations in consumer needs.
For instance, an internet user paying KShs. 6,000 per month for DSL per month is actually incurring 14 cents per minute for a 30-day month. This is a great deal for any 24 hour user who may even make money through such access to the internet. The same user would be said to incur 28 cents per minute if s/he were to use the link for an average 12 hours per day at the same monthly rate. There may be a catch here but there is a high probability that more businesses can survive on such low rates and pass such rates down to rural consumer.
--- Wainaina Mungai http://www.madeinkenya.org
SUSTAINABLE DEVELOPMENT is development that meets the needs of the present without compromising the ability of future generations to meet their own needs.
FROM: kictanet-bounces+kai.wulff=kdn.co.ke@kictanet.or.ke [mailto:kictanet-bounces <kictanet-bounces>+kai.wulff= kdn.co.ke@kictanet.or.ke] ON BEHALF OF Rebecca Wanjiku SENT: Friday, May 04, 2007 10:23 TO: kai.wulff@kdn.co.ke SUBJECT: [kictanet] Day 5 - Statistics on Affordability - CCKInternetStudyReport
thanks Kai for the response, we need many people responding to this issue,
in my opinion, the government should find a way of using the WB money through the private sector, so that the private sector does not see as if the government is competing and killing the profit margin,
in this regard, the government could come up with some MOU with the private sector so that some of the money invested is government's and
some
PS. that way, part of the profits will be ploughed back (it will be mandatory)
i remember during the OFC workshop, Kai shared how IFC funded a private secotor consortium to carry out some survey at USD 300k and a similar survey carried out by govts was valued at USD 3m
maybe this can help reduce costs and provide a way for govt and PS to work together and deliver quality market services, develop the content
and
all..
its just an opinion, its not absolute,
lets hear as many voices as possible, it is at these forums/discussions that great ideas come up,
regards
_KAI WULFF <KAI.WULFF@KDN.CO.KE>_ wrote:
Hello,
we leave it to the ISPs to create the demand. We were hoping that with our rural initiatives, like connecting schools and showing them how to educate the parents (and make money with this) will increase the demand on a natural way.
What we have seen wit some Rural BTS, it takes about 12 month until it is
break even ...
The problem is when you create the demand and then some World Bank money starts to compete before you can recover the cost. It is my strong believe that wherever a device can be operated, there WILL be a market. The private sector needs the Government as a user there as well as the private companies and consumers. Only then will the prices drop! We still focus too much on
the INTERNET, what most people need for a start is LOCAL information and communication .. so I would say: 90% local IP traffic and 10% international ..
Kai
----- Original Message ----- From: "Joan Walumbe" To: Sent: Thursday, May 03, 2007 10:26 Subject: Re: [kictanet] Day 5 - Statistics on Affordability - CCKInternetStudy Report
Walu,
I agree with you that affordablity is a factor especially for rural communities when it comes to access to the internet. But I think
that lack
of awareness is an even bigger factor. It's fine for the urban folk
(who
already recognise the benefits to the internet etc.) taking a short
break
in shags to have the internet access when back home, but it there is
no
demand for the internet among the residents what is the point?
So does KDN enter a market and then hope to create demand or is
their a
market that demands the service or is it a little of both?
I understand that Kai would not be venturing into the rural areas
if it
did not make any financial sense. Can anyone provide some
info/statistics on
demand for internet access in rural areas?
Joan Walumbe
----- Original Message ----- From: "John Walubengo" To: Sent: Thursday, May 03, 2007 9:01 AM Subject: [kictanet] Day 5 - Statistics on Affordability - CCK InternetStudy Report
Day 5- Statistics on Affordability.
I acknowledge an interesting thread filtering in on Trust
relationships
b/w IGOs/ISPs...feel free to continue contributing on that as well as
on
today's theme on affordability (multi-tasking encouraged by internet technologies ...)
and just to pick up from Kai's projection of KDN fiber hitting
Bungoma in
early August 2007. This would be quite a welcome and timely
development,
but at what cost to the consumer? To what extend will the
(internet)
services be affordable to the rural/average communities?
Affordability is a subjective term gven that what is considered
cheap by
the Bill Gates of this world is probably not so for the average Kenyan
on the
street. In trying to get an objective measurement for
affordability, the
Report pegged it on the national average incomes. In other words,
if the
monthly average income in Kenya is around 100USD and if the average monthly cost for internet access is also around 100USD then obviously the
average
Kenyan will not bother with accessing the Internet - it just
becomes way
beyond their means or too expensive or not affordable.
The report indicated that access through the more convenient
Internet
Dial-up/Desktop services costed over 200% the average incomes (too expensive), while the same access through mobile phones was costing
just
8% of the average incomes (quite affordable). What needs to be done in order to make Internet Services more afforable to Kenyans?
1 day deliberation on this one.
walu.
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Eric M.K Osiakwan Executive Secretary AfrISPA (www.afrispa.org) Tel: + 233.21.258800 ext 2031 Fax: + 233.21.258811 Cell: + 233.244.386792 Handle: eosiakwan Snail Mail: Pmb 208, Accra-North Office: BusyInternet - 42 Ring Road Central, Accra-North Blog: http://blogs.law.harvard.edu/eric/ Slang: "Tomorrow Now"
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Actually Kai - I would also venture to add that usage is a function of pricing :-) Lower prices yield higher volumes .... is generally the rule of thumb - but only for those who are looking to tap into the bottom or the middle of the pyramid The way I see it currently - operators and service providers are more interested in fighting for the cream before they begin to eat the cake - let's hope that the cake has not gone bad by the time the cream runs out ...... Brian On May 11, 2007, at 9:47 AM, Kai Wulff wrote:
As mentioned, the price on fiber is a function of usage. The current prices we charge are substantially lower than anything that was there before and are moving downwards. If we had more users (maybe even the Government using it), we could reduce further ..
----- Original Message ----- From: <bitange@jambo.co.ke> To: <kai.wulff@kdn.co.ke> Sent: Friday, May 11, 2007 09:08 Subject: Re: [kictanet] Day 5 - Statistics on Affordability- CCKInternetStudyReport
Florence, AfDB is locked into EASSy and has left other DFIs to finance Terrestrial networks. You are very right on the Government's involvement. This is the model that was followed by Sweden and as Alice noted, Malaysia. To be honest the private sector in ICT sector has not lived up to the expectations. Check Mombasa Nairobi Fibre link where the prices are still over the roof yet there are two players there. Does anyone need reason why we need to have more players running on the Government built network? Our private sector must embrace low prices but high volume concept. Think of the idle capacity that lay on the route yet there is business.
Regards
Bitange Ndemo.
Looks like we are looking to issues around the last mile for which a whole mesh of possibilities, actors and services must be considered, planned for and provided. If monopolies continue, forget lower prices and affordability! The governemnt is right in looking to provide the super highway and so it ought. And in doing so it is in its purview to take any loans from any development banks that it can get and at reasonably low interest rates. My only concern is that the AfDB is nowhere in sight or is it? With such high ROI on th continent from ICT investments as I am told where is the AfDB playing? Some one pls tell me or indeed the national dev banks? Are they any to speak of?
O just for news; the Nigerian ICT community is celebrating the hand over of managemnt of the top level domain name .ng to nigerians!
Cheers from hot and humid Lagos, FE
----- Original Message ---- From: alice <alice@apc.org> To: feanywhere@yahoo.co.uk Sent: Monday, 7 May, 2007 11:08:31 AM Subject: Re: [kictanet] Day 5 - Statistics on Affordability- CCKInternetStudyReport
Dear all
Talking about government's engagement in infrastructure development, the Malaysian government, for example was one of the first to attempt to replicate the Silicon Valley model in a developing country. "In its attempt to move the ICT sector to attract domestic and foreign private investment, the Malaysian government invested in creating a world class physical and information infrastructure. Called the Multimedia Super Corridor, this USD 40 billion initiative now serves as the backbone for the country's information superhighway. The network is supported by a high-speed link, which connects to Japan, ASEAN, the US and Europe. The network is also capable of supporting extensive public, education and business applications". Beyond infrastructure, the Malaysian government provides attractive tax incentives for world-class technology-led companies to participate in the MSC initiative. And most importantly, it launched actions to provide a well-educated work force with relevant skill levels ranging from technical to research.
I see nothing wrong with the Kenya government investing in infrastructure for public good, while private sector supporting this venture by perhaps focusing on the infrastructure as well, technology aspect, content, applications, skills, civil society assisting by ensuring there is demand at the local/rural level, etc
The idea here being partnerships. We do seriously need to consider strategies for partnerships, which would involve leveraging the creative potential of the different actors, allowing them to work on the basis of both established as well as new roles and responsibilities. That implies sharing of resources and responsibilities (sharing not shifting risks). For this to happen there is need to ensure that there is sufficient mutual respect and trust between partners to enable them to work together.
(The above comments are is entirely personal and do not reflect any position of the organisations I am affiliated with) alice
Kai U. Wulff wrote:
Well,
If you tender the capacity you require in Garissa, we will quote a price and commit a deployment of fiber.
Kai
-----Original Message----- From: kictanet-bounces+kai.wulff=kdn.co.ke@kictanet.or.ke [mailto:kictanet-bounces+kai.wulff=kdn.co.ke@kictanet.or.ke] On Behalf Of bitange@jambo.co.ke Sent: Monday, May 07, 2007 18:10 To: kai.wulff@kdn.co.ke Subject: Re: [kictanet] Day 5 - Statistics on Affordability- CCKInternetStudyReport
Dear All, Please do not be misled. The Government will never compete with anybody. All that is being done is to develop a platform where big and small can reasonably compete. I think Kai is confusing Telkom projects and Government infrastructure projects. If the private sector indeed wanted to do infrastructure projects they will have done so but most private sector have to have a business case first. I wonder why Kai did not do the Garisa route first before heading to Uganda. Please understand that Government has the obligation to provide infrastructure.
Regards
Bitange Ndemo.
My point is:
Yu have limited room for infrastructure since the cost is constant and only increased usage can drop the price. The Government should NOT be a competitor but a price sensitive user!
You will have enough people now competing for the business of the Government and the private users .. That forces prices down. Having a state owned cable or a state owned Telkom is in my opinion not the way forward.
Rgds
Kai
-----Original Message----- From: kictanet-bounces+kai.wulff=kdn.co.ke@kictanet.or.ke [mailto:kictanet-bounces+kai.wulff=kdn.co.ke@kictanet.or.ke] On Behalf Of Wainaina Mungai Sent: Saturday, May 05, 2007 10:35 To: kai.wulff@kdn.co.ke Subject: Re: [kictanet] Day 5 - Statistics on Affordability- CCKInternetStudyReport
Kai said;
The problem is when you create the demand and then some World Bank money starts to compete before you can recover the cost.. ...The private sector needs the Government as a user there as well as the private companies and consumers. [Only then will the prices drop!]
Pricing I would like to assume that competition from government is as good as competition from other market players. The beauty of competition is in the way it forces the private sector to put a smile on the face of every consumer ;-) so as to guarantee revenue. I am convinced that a significant drop in prices results only from fierce competition and some degree of regulation. TESPOK and others fought for years to introduce competition which resulted in the current lower prices of internet and telephony services.
The recent intervention of CCK on the pricing of mobile services is a case that proves that price controls may become necessary to protect consumers. For internet services, we need many 'small scale' providers whose products and pricing would be more market-driven and responsive to fluctuations in consumer needs.
For instance, an internet user paying KShs. 6,000 per month for DSL per month is actually incurring 14 cents per minute for a 30-day month. This is a great deal for any 24 hour user who may even make money through such access to the internet. The same user would be said to incur 28 cents per minute if s/he were to use the link for an average 12 hours per day at the same monthly rate. There may be a catch here but there is a high probability that more businesses can survive on such low rates and pass such rates down to rural consumer.
--- Wainaina Mungai http://www.madeinkenya.org
SUSTAINABLE DEVELOPMENT is development that meets the needs of the present without compromising the ability of future generations to meet their own needs.
FROM: kictanet-bounces+kai.wulff=kdn.co.ke@kictanet.or.ke [mailto:kictanet-bounces+kai.wulff=kdn.co.ke@kictanet.or.ke] ON BEHALF OF Rebecca Wanjiku SENT: Friday, May 04, 2007 10:23 TO: kai.wulff@kdn.co.ke SUBJECT: [kictanet] Day 5 - Statistics on Affordability - CCKInternetStudyReport
thanks Kai for the response, we need many people responding to this issue,
in my opinion, the government should find a way of using the WB money through the private sector, so that the private sector does not see as if the government is competing and killing the profit margin,
in this regard, the government could come up with some MOU with the private sector so that some of the money invested is government's and
some
PS. that way, part of the profits will be ploughed back (it will be mandatory)
i remember during the OFC workshop, Kai shared how IFC funded a private secotor consortium to carry out some survey at USD 300k and a similar survey carried out by govts was valued at USD 3m
maybe this can help reduce costs and provide a way for govt and PS to work together and deliver quality market services, develop the content
and
all..
its just an opinion, its not absolute,
lets hear as many voices as possible, it is at these forums/discussions that great ideas come up,
regards
_KAI WULFF <KAI.WULFF@KDN.CO.KE>_ wrote:
Hello,
we leave it to the ISPs to create the demand. We were hoping that with our rural initiatives, like connecting schools and showing them how to educate the parents (and make money with this) will increase the demand on a natural way.
What we have seen wit some Rural BTS, it takes about 12 month until it is
break even ...
The problem is when you create the demand and then some World Bank money starts to compete before you can recover the cost. It is my strong believe that wherever a device can be operated, there WILL be a market. The private sector needs the Government as a user there as well as the private companies and consumers. Only then will the prices drop! We still focus too much on
the INTERNET, what most people need for a start is LOCAL information and communication .. so I would say: 90% local IP traffic and 10% international ..
Kai
----- Original Message ----- From: "Joan Walumbe" To: Sent: Thursday, May 03, 2007 10:26 Subject: Re: [kictanet] Day 5 - Statistics on Affordability - CCKInternetStudy Report
Walu,
I agree with you that affordablity is a factor especially for rural communities when it comes to access to the internet. But I think that lack of awareness is an even bigger factor. It's fine for the urban folk (who already recognise the benefits to the internet etc.) taking a short break in shags to have the internet access when back home, but it there is no demand for the internet among the residents what is the point?
So does KDN enter a market and then hope to create demand or is their a market that demands the service or is it a little of both?
I understand that Kai would not be venturing into the rural areas if it
did not make any financial sense. Can anyone provide some info/statistics on demand for internet access in rural areas?
Joan Walumbe
----- Original Message ----- From: "John Walubengo" To: Sent: Thursday, May 03, 2007 9:01 AM Subject: [kictanet] Day 5 - Statistics on Affordability - CCK InternetStudy Report
Day 5- Statistics on Affordability.
I acknowledge an interesting thread filtering in on Trust relationships
b/w IGOs/ISPs...feel free to continue contributing on that as well as on today's theme on affordability (multi-tasking encouraged by internet technologies ...)
and just to pick up from Kai's projection of KDN fiber hitting Bungoma in early August 2007. This would be quite a welcome and timely development, but at what cost to the consumer? To what extend will the (internet) services be affordable to the rural/average communities?
Affordability is a subjective term gven that what is considered cheap by the Bill Gates of this world is probably not so for the average Kenyan on the street. In trying to get an objective measurement for affordability, the Report pegged it on the national average incomes. In other words, if the monthly average income in Kenya is around 100USD and if the average monthly cost for internet access is also around 100USD then obviously the average Kenyan will not bother with accessing the Internet - it just becomes way beyond their means or too expensive or not affordable.
The report indicated that access through the more convenient Internet Dial-up/Desktop services costed over 200% the average incomes (too expensive), while the same access through mobile phones was costing just 8% of the average incomes (quite affordable). What needs to be done in order to make Internet Services more afforable to Kenyans?
1 day deliberation on this one.
walu.
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Tel. 254 720 318 925
blog:http://beckyit.blogspot.com/
--------------------
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Looks like we are looking to issues around the last mile for which a whole mesh of possibilities, actors and services must be considered, planned for and provided. If monopolies continue, forget lower prices and affordability! The governemnt is right in looking to provide the super highway and so it ought. And in doing so it is in its purview to take any loans from any development banks that it can get and at reasonably low interest rates. My only concern is that the AfDB is nowhere in sight or is it? With such high ROI on th continent from ICT investments as I am told where is the AfDB playing? Some one pls tell me or indeed the national dev banks? Are
any to speak of?
O just for news; the Nigerian ICT community is celebrating the hand over of managemnt of the top level domain name .ng to nigerians!
Cheers from hot and humid Lagos, FE
----- Original Message ---- From: alice <alice@apc.org> To: feanywhere@yahoo.co.uk Sent: Monday, 7 May, 2007 11:08:31 AM Subject: Re: [kictanet] Day 5 - Statistics on Affordability- CCKInternetStudyReport
Dear all
Talking about government's engagement in infrastructure development,
Malaysian government, for example was one of the first to attempt to replicate the Silicon Valley model in a developing country. "In its attempt to move the ICT sector to attract domestic and foreign private investment, the Malaysian government invested in creating a world class physical and information infrastructure. Called the Multimedia Super Corridor, this USD 40 billion initiative now serves as the backbone for the country's information superhighway. The network is supported by a high-speed link, which connects to Japan, ASEAN, the US and Europe. The network is also capable of supporting extensive public, education and business applications". Beyond infrastructure, the Malaysian government provides attractive tax incentives for world-class technology-led companies to participate in the MSC initiative. And most importantly, it launched actions to provide a well-educated work force with relevant skill levels ranging from technical to research.
I see nothing wrong with the Kenya government investing in infrastructure for public good, while private sector supporting this venture by perhaps focusing on the infrastructure as well, technology aspect, content, applications, skills, civil society assisting by ensuring there is demand at the local/rural level, etc
The idea here being partnerships. We do seriously need to consider strategies for partnerships, which would involve leveraging the creative potential of the different actors, allowing them to work on the basis of both established as well as new roles and responsibilities. That implies sharing of resources and responsibilities (sharing not shifting risks). For this to happen there is need to ensure that there is sufficient mutual respect and trust between partners to enable them to work together.
(The above comments are is entirely personal and do not reflect any position of the organisations I am affiliated with) alice
Kai U. Wulff wrote:
Well,
If you tender the capacity you require in Garissa, we will quote a
and commit a deployment of fiber.
Kai
-----Original Message----- From: kictanet-bounces+kai.wulff=kdn.co.ke@kictanet.or.ke [mailto:kictanet-bounces+kai.wulff=kdn.co.ke@kictanet.or.ke] On Behalf Of bitange@jambo.co.ke Sent: Monday, May 07, 2007 18:10 To: kai.wulff@kdn.co.ke Subject: Re: [kictanet] Day 5 - Statistics on Affordability- CCKInternetStudyReport
Dear All, Please do not be misled. The Government will never compete with anybody. All that is being done is to develop a platform where big and small can reasonably compete. I think Kai is confusing Telkom projects and Government infrastructure projects. If the private sector indeed wanted to do infrastructure projects they will have done so but most private sector have to have a business case first. I wonder why Kai did not do the Garisa route first before heading to Uganda. Please understand
Government has the obligation to provide infrastructure.
Regards
Bitange Ndemo.
My point is:
Yu have limited room for infrastructure since the cost is constant and only increased usage can drop the price. The Government should NOT be a competitor but a price sensitive user!
You will have enough people now competing for the business of the Government and the private users .. That forces prices down. Having a state owned cable or a state owned Telkom is in my opinion not the way forward.
Rgds
Kai
-----Original Message----- From: kictanet-bounces+kai.wulff=kdn.co.ke@kictanet.or.ke [mailto:kictanet-bounces+kai.wulff=kdn.co.ke@kictanet.or.ke] On Behalf Of Wainaina Mungai Sent: Saturday, May 05, 2007 10:35 To: kai.wulff@kdn.co.ke Subject: Re: [kictanet] Day 5 - Statistics on Affordability- CCKInternetStudyReport
Kai said;
The problem is when you create the demand and then some World Bank money starts to compete before you can recover the cost.. ...The private sector needs the Government as a user there as well as the private companies and consumers. [Only then will the prices drop!]
Pricing I would like to assume that competition from government is as good as competition from other market players. The beauty of competition is in the way it forces the private sector to put a smile on the face of every consumer ;-) so as to guarantee revenue. I am convinced that a significant drop in prices results only from fierce competition and some degree of regulation. TESPOK and others fought for years to introduce competition which resulted in the current lower prices of internet and telephony services.
The recent intervention of CCK on the pricing of mobile services is a case that proves that price controls may become necessary to protect consumers. For internet services, we need many 'small scale' providers whose products and pricing would be more market-driven and responsive to fluctuations in consumer needs.
For instance, an internet user paying KShs. 6,000 per month for DSL
month is actually incurring 14 cents per minute for a 30-day month. This is a great deal for any 24 hour user who may even make money through such access to the internet. The same user would be said to incur 28 cents per minute if s/he were to use the link for an average 12 hours per day at the same monthly rate. There may be a catch here but there is a high probability that more businesses can survive on such low rates and pass such rates down to rural consumer.
--- Wainaina Mungai http://www.madeinkenya.org
SUSTAINABLE DEVELOPMENT is development that meets the needs of the present without compromising the ability of future generations to meet their own needs.
FROM: kictanet-bounces+kai.wulff=kdn.co.ke@kictanet.or.ke [mailto:kictanet-bounces+kai.wulff=kdn.co.ke@kictanet.or.ke] ON BEHALF OF Rebecca Wanjiku SENT: Friday, May 04, 2007 10:23 TO: kai.wulff@kdn.co.ke SUBJECT: [kictanet] Day 5 - Statistics on Affordability - CCKInternetStudyReport
thanks Kai for the response, we need many people responding to this issue,
in my opinion, the government should find a way of using the WB money through the private sector, so that the private sector does not see as if the government is competing and killing the profit margin,
in this regard, the government could come up with some MOU with
private sector so that some of the money invested is government's and
some
PS. that way, part of the profits will be ploughed back (it will be mandatory)
i remember during the OFC workshop, Kai shared how IFC funded a private secotor consortium to carry out some survey at USD 300k and a similar survey carried out by govts was valued at USD 3m
maybe this can help reduce costs and provide a way for govt and PS to work together and deliver quality market services, develop the content
and
all..
its just an opinion, its not absolute,
lets hear as many voices as possible, it is at these forums/discussions that great ideas come up,
regards
_KAI WULFF <KAI.WULFF@KDN.CO.KE>_ wrote:
Hello,
we leave it to the ISPs to create the demand. We were hoping that with our rural initiatives, like connecting schools and showing them how to educate the parents (and make money with this) will increase the demand on a natural way.
What we have seen wit some Rural BTS, it takes about 12 month until it is
break even ...
The problem is when you create the demand and then some World Bank money starts to compete before you can recover the cost. It is my strong believe that wherever a device can be operated, there WILL be a market. The private sector needs the Government as a user there as well as the private companies and consumers. Only then will the prices drop! We still focus too much on
the INTERNET, what most people need for a start is LOCAL information and communication .. so I would say: 90% local IP traffic and 10% international ..
Kai
----- Original Message ----- From: "Joan Walumbe" To: Sent: Thursday, May 03, 2007 10:26 Subject: Re: [kictanet] Day 5 - Statistics on Affordability - CCKInternetStudy Report
Walu,
I agree with you that affordablity is a factor especially for rural communities when it comes to access to the internet. But I think that lack of awareness is an even bigger factor. It's fine for the urban folk (who already recognise the benefits to the internet etc.) taking a short break in shags to have the internet access when back home, but it there is no demand for the internet among the residents what is the point?
So does KDN enter a market and then hope to create demand or is their a market that demands the service or is it a little of both?
I understand that Kai would not be venturing into the rural areas if it
did not make any financial sense. Can anyone provide some info/statistics on demand for internet access in rural areas?
Joan Walumbe
----- Original Message ----- From: "John Walubengo" To: Sent: Thursday, May 03, 2007 9:01 AM Subject: [kictanet] Day 5 - Statistics on Affordability - CCK InternetStudy Report
Day 5- Statistics on Affordability.
I acknowledge an interesting thread filtering in on Trust relationships
b/w IGOs/ISPs...feel free to continue contributing on that as well as on today's theme on affordability (multi-tasking encouraged by internet technologies ...)
and just to pick up from Kai's projection of KDN fiber hitting Bungoma in early August 2007. This would be quite a welcome and timely development, but at what cost to the consumer? To what extend will the (internet) services be affordable to the rural/average communities?
Affordability is a subjective term gven that what is considered cheap by the Bill Gates of this world is probably not so for the average Kenyan on the street. In trying to get an objective measurement for affordability, the Report pegged it on the national average incomes. In other words, if the monthly average income in Kenya is around 100USD and if the average monthly cost for internet access is also around 100USD then obviously
It is worth noting at this junction that pricing is not the only factor but service delivery, reliability, availability and, in general, industry standard SLAs that will encourage operators to lease more capacity. As operators we will need more and more transmission capacity both within and outside the country and therefore are looking seriously at all the various proposals that are on the table. Therefore we are looking forward to reviewing the detailed plans for the Regional Fiber Optic network, including dates or termination points, pricing etc so that we may plan accordingly. Michael CEO Safaricom Limited -----Original Message----- From: kictanet-bounces+mjoseph=safaricom.co.ke@kictanet.or.ke [mailto:kictanet-bounces+mjoseph=safaricom.co.ke@kictanet.or.ke] On Behalf Of bitange@jambo.co.ke Sent: Friday, May 11, 2007 9:09 AM To: Michael Joseph Subject: Re: [kictanet] Day 5 - Statistics on Affordability- CCKInternetStudyReport Florence, AfDB is locked into EASSy and has left other DFIs to finance Terrestrial networks. You are very right on the Government's involvement. This is the model that was followed by Sweden and as Alice noted, Malaysia. To be honest the private sector in ICT sector has not lived up to the expectations. Check Mombasa Nairobi Fibre link where the prices are still over the roof yet there are two players there. Does anyone need reason why we need to have more players running on the Government built network? Our private sector must embrace low prices but high volume concept. Think of the idle capacity that lay on the route yet there is business. Regards Bitange Ndemo. they the price that per the the
average
Kenyan will not bother with accessing the Internet - it just becomes way beyond their means or too expensive or not affordable.
The report indicated that access through the more convenient Internet Dial-up/Desktop services costed over 200% the average incomes (too expensive), while the same access through mobile phones was costing just 8% of the average incomes (quite affordable). What needs to be done in order to make Internet Services more afforable to Kenyans?
1 day deliberation on this one.
walu.
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participants (8)
-
Alex Gakuru -
alice -
bitange＠jambo.co.ke -
Brian Longwe -
Eric Osiakwan -
Florence Etta -
Kai Wulff -
Michael Joseph