Re: [kictanet] RATIONALE OF ICT ASSOCIATIONS MERGER
Hi Sam, The rationale for federations is based on the fact that many issues in sub sub sectors are CROSS CUTTING. e.g. all sectors in all industries across the country have a problem with power, security etc. so its make no sense for government to give audience to 1000 industry representatives to hear the same exact thing. that s why KEPSA was formed to distill the sector issues and give the government ONE PAGE OF PRIORITY ISSUES. cheers all Charles Nduati On Fri, 09 Apr 2010 08:32 EEST Sam Aguyo wrote:
Hello Colleagues,
I wonder wether it would be possible to merge the various associations into one. First we need to ask ourselves why they are formed, who finances them and the mandate of each.
ICT is dynamic - self destructing, the associations may follow the same principle. A more feasible approach is to ensure they deliver on there mandate.
Sam hi Walu,
I ment that constatine was the first pope of the merged factions of which he made christianity compulsory more like the KANU of the 90s i.e. BABA NA MAMA. st. peter was more like george okado the founding chairman of computer society
Thanks shah for keeping the KIF spirit alive.
charles
On Thu, 08 Apr 2010 08:19 EEST Walubengo J wrote:
Charles,
At the risk of starting a religious debate, ...jst wanted to clarify. 1st Pope was never Constantine but St. Peter...in the 1st Century. Constantine came on the scene 300years later.... http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Constantine_I ...
walu.
--- On Thu, 4/8/10, charles nduati <[email protected]> wrote:
From: charles nduati <[email protected]> Subject: Re: [kictanet] ICT ASSOCIATIONS MERGER To: [email protected] Cc: [email protected] Date: Thursday, April 8, 2010, 7:49 AM
Hi listers,
I have truly enjoyed this debate especially having been the first founding executive director of KENYA ICT FEDERATION (KIF) With other industry captains like mike eldon our founder chairman and all chairmen of the then 12 existing ICT associations i.e. 2003. our vision was exactly what this debate is about and we anchored KIF under KEPSA. as Dr. siganga said, there is no need of recreating the wheel. just contact Dr. kevit desai the KIF governor at KEPSA and ask him to adopt all ICT associations and stakeholders in KEPSA through KIF.
believe me folks, if the ROMAN KING CONSTANTINE hadn t merged all christian sects and made himself the first POPE, christianity would not have survived 2000 years and be so successful in its mission
good day all
charles nduati
On Wed, 07 Apr 2010 21:34 EEST Harry Delano wrote:
Al Kags,
That is why this town hall meeting may be important. Actually Harry (Hare), came up with a more brilliant idea that would require us to make this to be more of an evaluation process - that would create a "need" for either overhaul or improvement in structures and processes. This could be enacted by Govt, either through legislation, or an executive decision.
Mr. Kukubo, also had a good suggestion that we cast the net wider, to draw in as many stakeholers as we can. This, I suppose would be be a perfect chance for us, to tick each of these agencies off the list, enumerating their roles, mandate, and how this all should fit in the bigger picture across the national ICT Landscape. I suppose, we need to hold to account those tasked with a mandate..
So I suppose, the question we should be asking ourselves, is where do we first start - The town hall meeting..? And how do we cast this net wider for participation..?
Harry
_____
From: [email protected] [mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf Of Al Kags Sent: Wednesday, April 07, 2010 8:45 PM To: [email protected] Cc: KICTAnet ICT Policy Discussions Subject: Re: [kictanet] Who is ICT Board? Hijacked
Gilda, you are right that all organisations need to meet their obligations effectively. I wonder though whether some of them are not duplicated? especially some that we have seen listed on this thread?
On Wed, Apr 7, 2010 at 4:40 PM, <[email protected]> wrote:
Hi Harry,
I believe the various organisations are all playing their own unique roles. Key thing is for each to meet it's obligations effectively. Tim Waema's proposal on the discussion of various organisations and their mandate is no doubt a good idea to get things cleared and for industry to continue giving their input so that the organisations are well designed.
Best,
Gilda
Quoting Harry Delano <[email protected]>:
S. Murigi,
Hey is it an ipad you typing on....?? Anyways, just on a lighter note...
So, what could be the best way forward? It seems, we just got a whole
of organizations out here, some of them I'm hearing for the 1st time..
Harry
-----Original Message----- From: [email protected] [mailto:kictanet-bounces+harry <mailto:kictanet-bounces%2Bharry> [email protected]] On Behalf Of S.Murigi Muraya Sent: Wednesday, April 07, 2010 3:25 PM To: [email protected] Cc: KICTAnet ICT Policy Discussions Subject: Re: [kictanet] Who is ICT Board? Hijacked
About 2 years ago went to the KICTB offices then at Waiyaki Way. My
then was to find out what they were about.
Was referred to a visibly irritated fellow who was done with me in less
1 minute only telling me to check the KICTB website.
Have waited to see what they would come up with and am not too disappointed. For one they organize, co sponsor or market industry events that yuppies can be involved in without falling asleep. Being sort of experienced in the professional tech skills development field this can authoritatively say
myriad purpose than this
is one of the 'enabling situations' we have lacked locally.
We need skills but companies are not willing to train unethical techies who jump ship immediately after being sharpened. On the other hand techies are unable to effectively educate themselves without corporate or tech community support eg. www.ihub.co.ke
Training centers are not too doing well financially & cannot hire the best (often more experienced) techies because corporates are not training as much as they should. By working with industry giants (eg Google, Microsoft, Oracle) & their partners the KICTB is somehow helping educate techies via these industry events.
If anything, the KICTB needs to exist for this purpose -> to help build capacity in the local tech industry. They are exposing budding software entreprenuers to Indian outsourcing practices to name another 'situation' they are enabling. GITS, NCS etc do not do this as far as I know.
Nimechoka - typing on a mobile.
SMM
-----Original Message----- From: Barrack Otieno <[email protected]> Sent: Monday, April 05, 2010 16:52 To: [email protected] Cc: KICTAnet ICT Policy Discussions <[email protected]> Subject: Re: [kictanet] Who is ICT Board? Hijacked
Dr. Siganga,
Your write up makes sense, i guess we have been mixing too many issues, in other words we handle government agencies and industry associations separately, sounds like the meeting is a welcome idea, i suggest government agencies first.
Regards
Hi Evans, all - we have discussed the issue of a statutory body to regulate ICT professionalism on this list in the past and the discussion did not go far. Some said that we would be interfering with "innovation". Some mentioned Bill Gates as a guy who has done much but does not have any professional qualification. Yet others had other stories (e.g. the three blind men story from Brian and his note to Walu on 7/7/08:
I beg to differ. ICT is too large, too deep and too wide to have a single, authoritative, representative body. What you refer to would probably be more appropriate to some of the professional disciplines within the ICT sector e.g. Software Developers Guild, System Administrators Association, CIO/CTO Society - within which there can be certain codes of behavior, ethics, values, best practices etc...
On 10/9/08 on this list I re-introduced the topic of a statutory body such as LSK,ICPAK, ... to guide the ICT profession. In my mail I even included a "draft ICT Professionals Act". The idea received cold water except from Kamotho.
One distinction between "profession" and "Industry". In my mind I see statutory bodies as more regulating "profession" rather than "industry". Industry bodies are normally private sector initiatives formed by interested persons to achieve common goals. I can be surprised to hear the government being asked to help set up an "industry" association of any type. Private sector associations engage the government, so how can the same government be involved in their set up? The other axiomatic thing about associations is that the ones that do not deliver invariably die a natural death - and there are many examples of this in Kenya even within ICT. It is not difficult to set up a membership association (just like a Church or Club which are set up under
On Mon, Apr 5, 2010 at 3:03 PM, waudo siganga <[email protected]> wrote: the same "Societies Act").
People cannot be stopped from setting up associations because the Constitution guarantees freedom of association. This means those who have any bright ideas that are not accommodated by existing associations cannot have an excuse or choose to take up the role of professional hecklers of existing associations.
Within ICT we agreed some years to accommodate multiple associations which then converge under KEPSA umbrella to offer a unified voice. This I think is working very well as recently exemplified at the Prime Minister's Round Table where ICT issues were very well articulated.
With regard to Prof's suggestion to discuss government agencies and private sector associations at the same meeting I think that would create much confusion and even opportunities for red herrings to be thrown around. It is mixing oranges and apples. The word "association" is actually a short form. The exact terminology is "membership association". An association is made up of members who voluntarily come together and run their interests. The members have their own channels to discuss their issues. It does not take much imagination to realize that someone who is NOT a "member" is unlikely to have overflowing goodwill towards (leave alone information about) the association. However, associations face a lot of challenges and a specific get together of associations to discuss best practices and ways of being sustainable and more effective would be welcome. The Business Advocacy Fund is for example doing a great and positive job in the direction of capacity building and funding. Well done to them. Another useful type of meeting is the type you refer to that was held at KICC a couple of years ago where associations can inform a wider audience about their activities and roles and, perhaps, recruit more members. Overall, an associations' meeting should be a focused one and not be mixed up with one for government agencies; and guest list should be expanded from Prof's limiting suggestion of "the plethora of ICT industry associations that are not effective" to include those which are effective so that others can learn from them as well.
Waudo www.cskonline.org
On Mon, 05 Apr 2010 02:38 -0500, [email protected] wrote:
Dear listers, Did we not have a similar meeting not too long ago? I think it was about two years or so. Cant remember who had organized it but it was there at KICC. Same theme of taking stock of all ICT bodies. Cant remember if the Government agencies were represented.
Not that I have a problem with yet another similar meeting, but we need to clearly set out what we want to achieve with that kind of gathering. Its common knowledge that the ICT industry is awash with all manner of associations/organizations and Government bodies. Isn't it time that we had the sort of organization that we see with other professions like Accountants and Lawyers etc? Isn't it time that the Government created a statutory industry association? This can easily be achieved by such legislation as the policy document presented by the PS the other day, or the Communications Act that was passed not too long ago.
Inasmuch as the Government so believes in the increasing importance that ICT plays in the economy, then its imperative that we have an industry body that would take care of all others, say like a CSK that is recognized by an Act of parliament.
Regards, Ikua
Quoting Mwololo Tim <[email protected]>:
> Dear all, > The discussion needs to be on the institutional framework for ICTs > in Kenya, not just on KICTB. It needs to cover KICTB, NCS and > DEG/GITS. It also needs to include the plethora of ICT industry associations that are not effective. > I can organize such a townhall meeting in Chiromo like the first one. > However, for such a meeting to be useful, it needs to be preceded > by some guided discussion on the same. Alternatively, one or two > persons can prepare presenations to guide the discussions, with > these presentations being made available earlier for participants > to acquint with them. I am also prepared to be one of those > persons. tim > > On Sun, Apr 4, 2010 at 9:10 PM, Barrack Otieno > <[email protected]>wrote: > >> Daktari, >> >> Thank you for setting the ball rolling, not sure i saw the >> document as well it must have been hijacked. A town hall meeting >> is a welcome idea i second it, Kippra felt sufficiently >> philanthropic before the last town hall meeting i wonder whether >> they can double their offer during this easter season, bwn Magolo >> can we count on you. Walu can set the agenda. >> >> Regards >> >> On Sun, Apr 4, 2010 at 7:28 PM, Solomon Mburu Kamau >> <[email protected]> wrote: >> > On 04/04/2010, [email protected] <[email protected]> wrote: >> >> Barrack, >> >> Several posts have come by on the role of ICT and I think it >> >> will be >> wise >> >> if we sorted this in a town hall meeting similar to one we had >> >> on >> Malili. >> >> Honestly it feels as though some Neanderthal decided to create >> >> these agencies without putting some thought to it. Criticisms >> >> are good only when you point out where there are gaps. >> >> >> >> The other day I posted a policy proposal for comments but only >> >> one >> person >> >> did respond. What it means then is that this forum ni ya >> >> kuchongoana >> tu. >> > >> > Dakitari, with due respect, would you mind resending the policy >> > proposals as a new thread so that interested parties may respond? >> > If sent within this thread, I'm afraid they'll be swallowed >> > along the >> way. >> > >> >> Which really is unfortunate. I have four other policy >> >> proposals that I really think should push through then arouse >> >> sufficient interest from >> the >> >> membership here. >> > >> > I also think you should send them so that we react to the contents! >> >> >> >> >> >> Ndemo. >> >> >> >> >> >>> This is truly "Jicho Pevu", i think some answers to this >> >>> questions are very much in order as we celebrate Easter, can >> >>> someone provide us with a list of all agencies involved in >> >>> ICTs and ICT4D so that we can do some tooth comb analysis, i >> >>> saw a post from Paul on what the board has achieved early >> >>> this year, that was very much in order we need something from NCS as well plus any other agencies. >> >>> >> >>> Regards >> >>> >> >>> On Sat, Apr 3, 2010 at 12:50 PM, Vitalis Olunga >> >>> <[email protected]> >> wrote: >> >>>> There is also another body , National Communications >> >>>> Secretarait. What is the diffrence between NCS and ICT Baord >> >>>> and how do the two bodies >> relate >> >>>> with respect to advisory services to the governement on ICT matters? >> >>>> >> >>>> Regards >> >>>> >> >>>> >> >>>> Vitalis >> >>>> >> >>>> ________________________________ >> >>>> From: robert yawe <[email protected]> >> >>>> To: [email protected] >> >>>> Cc: KICTAnet ICT Policy Discussions >> >>>> <[email protected]> >> >>>> Sent: Sat, April 3, 2010 12:03:22 PM >> >>>> Subject: Re: [kictanet] Who is ICT Board? Hijacked >> >>>> >> >>>> Hi, >> >>>> I rest my case on this issue, the ICT Board is a monolith, >> >>>> Try reading this... (pdf file), as I feared it is mandated to >> >>>> do anything and everything under the sun that could be called >> >>>> ICT which includes your microwave oven and copier. >> >>>> Functions of Kenya ICT Board >> >>>> The core functions of Kenya ICT Board as documented in the >> >>>> Kenya >> Gazette >> >>>> Legal Notice No 26 of the May 2007: >> >>>> ? To advice the government on all relevant matters >> >>>> pertaining to development, coordination (remember the PM >> >>>> post) and promotion of ICT industries in the country. >> >>>> ? Promote both locally and internationally the opportunities >> >>>> for investments in ICT technology ? Facilitate and manage >> >>>> ICT industrial incubation parks and >> technology >> >>>> parks together with associated facilities on sites, estates and land. >> >>>> ? Partner with agents within and without the country to >> >>>> carry out >> such >> >>>> functions as it may consider necessary. >> >>>> ? To transform and empower society through deployment and >> >>>> use of >> ICTs. >> >>>> ? Carry out any other activity to promote and develop ICT >> >>>> products >> and >> >>>> services. >> >>>> Have a restful Easter as we await the limited range 4G, yes >> >>>> you >> guessed >> >>>> it I >> >>>> still have a 3G issue and I am in Nairobi. >> >>>> Regards >> >>>> >> >>>> >> >>>> >> >>>> >> >>>> _______________________________________________ >> >>>> kictanet mailing list >> >>>> [email protected] >> >>>> http://lists.kictanet.or.ke/mailman/listinfo/kictanet >> >>>> >> >>>> This message was sent to: [email protected] >> >>>> Unsubscribe or change your options at >> >>>> >> http://lists.kictanet.or.ke/mailman/options/kictanet/otieno.barrac >> k%40gmail.com >> >>>> >> >>>> >> >>> >> >>> >> >>> >> >>> -- >> >>> Barrack O. Otieno >> >>> Geneva >> >>> Skype: barrack.otieno >> >>> >> >>> _______________________________________________ >> >>> kictanet mailing list >> >>> [email protected] >> >>> http://lists.kictanet.or.ke/mailman/listinfo/kictanet >> >>> >> >>> This message was sent to: [email protected] Unsubscribe or >> >>> change your options at >> >>> >> http://lists.kictanet.or.ke/mailman/options/kictanet/bitange%40jam >> bo.co.ke >> >>> >> >>> ---------------------------------------------- >> >>> This message has been scanned for viruses and dangerous >> >>> content by Jambo MailScanner, and is believed to be clean. >> >>> --------------------------------------------- >> >>> "easy access to the world" >> >>> >> >>> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> ---------------------------------------------- >> >> This message has been scanned for viruses and dangerous content >> >> by Jambo MailScanner, and is believed to be clean. >> >> --------------------------------------------- >> >> "easy access to the world" >> >> >> >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> >> kictanet mailing list >> >> [email protected] >> >> http://lists.kictanet.or.ke/mailman/listinfo/kictanet >> >> >> >> This message was sent to: [email protected] Unsubscribe or >> >> change your options at >> >> >> http://lists.kictanet.or.ke/mailman/options/kictanet/solo.mburu%40 >> gmail.com >> >> >> > >> > >> > -- >> > Solomon Mb?r? Kamau >> > P.O. Box 19343 - 00202 Nairobi >> > Cell: (+254-0) 735 431041 >> > >> > Man is a gregarious animal and enjoys agreement as cows will >> > graze all the same way to the side of a hill! >> > >> > AND >> > >> > It is better to die in dignity than in the ignomity of ambiguous >> generosity! >> > >> > http://dawn-in-kenya.blogspot.com http://smiley2.wordpress.com >> > http://mburu.sikika.co.ke >> > >> > _______________________________________________ >> > kictanet mailing list >> > [email protected] >> > http://lists.kictanet.or.ke/mailman/listinfo/kictanet >> > >> > This message was sent to: [email protected] Unsubscribe >> > or change your options at >> http://lists.kictanet.or.ke/mailman/options/kictanet/otieno.barrac >> k%40gmail.com >> > >> >> >> >> -- >> Barrack O. 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Charles, That is very true. For instance, all the bodies that fall under KEPSA still maintain their identity. So, having one main ICT federation does not mean that we for instance will cease existing as LPA and pursuing our own agenda. But we have a sumit body through which we can easily get heard. Its like the surveyors who share one body with Architects and Quantity Surveyors etc. They are chapters within the main body but they still have their own identity. Ikua Quoting charles nduati <[email protected]>:
Hi Sam,
The rationale for federations is based on the fact that many issues in sub sub sectors are CROSS CUTTING. e.g. all sectors in all industries across the country have a problem with power, security etc. so its make no sense for government to give audience to 1000 industry representatives to hear the same exact thing. that s why KEPSA was formed to distill the sector issues and give the government ONE PAGE OF PRIORITY ISSUES.
cheers all
Charles Nduati
On Fri, 09 Apr 2010 08:32 EEST Sam Aguyo wrote:
Hello Colleagues,
I wonder wether it would be possible to merge the various associations into one. First we need to ask ourselves why they are formed, who finances them and the mandate of each.
ICT is dynamic - self destructing, the associations may follow the same principle. A more feasible approach is to ensure they deliver on there mandate.
Sam hi Walu,
I ment that constatine was the first pope of the merged factions of which he made christianity compulsory more like the KANU of the 90s i.e. BABA NA MAMA. st. peter was more like george okado the founding chairman of computer society
Thanks shah for keeping the KIF spirit alive.
charles
On Thu, 08 Apr 2010 08:19 EEST Walubengo J wrote:
Charles,
At the risk of starting a religious debate, ...jst wanted to clarify. 1st Pope was never Constantine but St. Peter...in the 1st Century. Constantine came on the scene 300years later.... http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Constantine_I ...
walu.
--- On Thu, 4/8/10, charles nduati <[email protected]> wrote:
From: charles nduati <[email protected]> Subject: Re: [kictanet] ICT ASSOCIATIONS MERGER To: [email protected] Cc: [email protected] Date: Thursday, April 8, 2010, 7:49 AM
Hi listers,
I have truly enjoyed this debate especially having been the first founding executive director of KENYA ICT FEDERATION (KIF) With other industry captains like mike eldon our founder chairman and all chairmen of the then 12 existing ICT associations i.e. 2003. our vision was exactly what this debate is about and we anchored KIF under KEPSA. as Dr. siganga said, there is no need of recreating the wheel. just contact Dr. kevit desai the KIF governor at KEPSA and ask him to adopt all ICT associations and stakeholders in KEPSA through KIF.
believe me folks, if the ROMAN KING CONSTANTINE hadn t merged all christian sects and made himself the first POPE, christianity would not have survived 2000 years and be so successful in its mission
good day all
charles nduati
On Wed, 07 Apr 2010 21:34 EEST Harry Delano wrote:
Al Kags,
That is why this town hall meeting may be important. Actually Harry (Hare), came up with a more brilliant idea that would require us to make this to be more of an evaluation process - that would create a "need" for either overhaul or improvement in structures and processes. This could be enacted by Govt, either through legislation, or an executive decision.
Mr. Kukubo, also had a good suggestion that we cast the net wider, to draw in as many stakeholers as we can. This, I suppose would be be a perfect chance for us, to tick each of these agencies off the list, enumerating their roles, mandate, and how this all should fit in the bigger picture across the national ICT Landscape. I suppose, we need to hold to account those tasked with a mandate..
So I suppose, the question we should be asking ourselves, is where do we first start - The town hall meeting..? And how do we cast this net wider for participation..?
Harry
_____
From: [email protected] [mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf Of Al Kags Sent: Wednesday, April 07, 2010 8:45 PM To: [email protected] Cc: KICTAnet ICT Policy Discussions Subject: Re: [kictanet] Who is ICT Board? Hijacked
Gilda, you are right that all organisations need to meet their obligations effectively. I wonder though whether some of them are not duplicated? especially some that we have seen listed on this thread?
On Wed, Apr 7, 2010 at 4:40 PM, <[email protected]> wrote:
Hi Harry,
I believe the various organisations are all playing their own unique roles. Key thing is for each to meet it's obligations effectively. Tim Waema's proposal on the discussion of various organisations and their mandate is no doubt a good idea to get things cleared and for industry to continue giving their input so that the organisations are well designed.
Best,
Gilda
Quoting Harry Delano <[email protected]>:
S. Murigi,
Hey is it an ipad you typing on....?? Anyways, just on a lighter note...
So, what could be the best way forward? It seems, we just got a whole
of organizations out here, some of them I'm hearing for the 1st time..
Harry
-----Original Message----- From: [email protected] [mailto:kictanet-bounces+harry <mailto:kictanet-bounces%2Bharry> [email protected]] On Behalf Of S.Murigi Muraya Sent: Wednesday, April 07, 2010 3:25 PM To: [email protected] Cc: KICTAnet ICT Policy Discussions Subject: Re: [kictanet] Who is ICT Board? Hijacked
About 2 years ago went to the KICTB offices then at Waiyaki Way. My
then was to find out what they were about.
Was referred to a visibly irritated fellow who was done with me in less
1 minute only telling me to check the KICTB website.
Have waited to see what they would come up with and am not too disappointed. For one they organize, co sponsor or market industry events that yuppies can be involved in without falling asleep. Being sort of experienced in the professional tech skills development field this can authoritatively say
myriad purpose than this
is one of the 'enabling situations' we have lacked locally.
We need skills but companies are not willing to train unethical techies who jump ship immediately after being sharpened. On the other hand techies are unable to effectively educate themselves without corporate or tech community support eg. www.ihub.co.ke
Training centers are not too doing well financially & cannot hire the best (often more experienced) techies because corporates are not training as much as they should. By working with industry giants (eg Google, Microsoft, Oracle) & their partners the KICTB is somehow helping educate techies via these industry events.
If anything, the KICTB needs to exist for this purpose -> to help build capacity in the local tech industry. They are exposing budding software entreprenuers to Indian outsourcing practices to name another 'situation' they are enabling. GITS, NCS etc do not do this as far as I know.
Nimechoka - typing on a mobile.
SMM
-----Original Message----- From: Barrack Otieno <[email protected]> Sent: Monday, April 05, 2010 16:52 To: [email protected] Cc: KICTAnet ICT Policy Discussions <[email protected]> Subject: Re: [kictanet] Who is ICT Board? Hijacked
Dr. Siganga,
Your write up makes sense, i guess we have been mixing too many issues, in other words we handle government agencies and industry associations separately, sounds like the meeting is a welcome idea, i suggest government agencies first.
Regards
Hi Evans, all - we have discussed the issue of a statutory body to regulate ICT professionalism on this list in the past and the discussion did not go far. Some said that we would be interfering with "innovation". Some mentioned Bill Gates as a guy who has done much but does not have any professional qualification. Yet others had other stories (e.g. the three blind men story from Brian and his note to Walu on 7/7/08: > I beg to differ. ICT is too large, too deep and too wide to have a > single, authoritative, representative body. What you refer to would > probably be more appropriate to some of the professional disciplines > within the ICT sector e.g. Software Developers Guild, System > Administrators Association, CIO/CTO Society - within which there can > be certain codes of behavior, ethics, values, best practices etc...
On 10/9/08 on this list I re-introduced the topic of a statutory body such as LSK,ICPAK, ... to guide the ICT profession. In my mail I even included a "draft ICT Professionals Act". The idea received cold water except from Kamotho.
One distinction between "profession" and "Industry". In my mind I see statutory bodies as more regulating "profession" rather than "industry". Industry bodies are normally private sector initiatives formed by interested persons to achieve common goals. I can be surprised to hear the government being asked to help set up an "industry" association of any type. Private sector associations engage the government, so how can the same government be involved in their set up? The other axiomatic thing about associations is that the ones that do not deliver invariably die a natural death - and there are many examples of this in Kenya even within ICT. It is not difficult to set up a membership association (just like a Church or Club which are set up under
On Mon, Apr 5, 2010 at 3:03 PM, waudo siganga <[email protected]> wrote: the same "Societies Act").
People cannot be stopped from setting up associations because the Constitution guarantees freedom of association. This means those who have any bright ideas that are not accommodated by existing associations cannot have an excuse or choose to take up the role of professional hecklers of existing associations.
Within ICT we agreed some years to accommodate multiple associations which then converge under KEPSA umbrella to offer a unified voice. This I think is working very well as recently exemplified at the Prime Minister's Round Table where ICT issues were very well articulated.
With regard to Prof's suggestion to discuss government agencies and private sector associations at the same meeting I think that would create much confusion and even opportunities for red herrings to be thrown around. It is mixing oranges and apples. The word "association" is actually a short form. The exact terminology is "membership association". An association is made up of members who voluntarily come together and run their interests. The members have their own channels to discuss their issues. It does not take much imagination to realize that someone who is NOT a "member" is unlikely to have overflowing goodwill towards (leave alone information about) the association. However, associations face a lot of challenges and a specific get together of associations to discuss best practices and ways of being sustainable and more effective would be welcome. The Business Advocacy Fund is for example doing a great and positive job in the direction of capacity building and funding. Well done to them. Another useful type of meeting is the type you refer to that was held at KICC a couple of years ago where associations can inform a wider audience about their activities and roles and, perhaps, recruit more members. Overall, an associations' meeting should be a focused one and not be mixed up with one for government agencies; and guest list should be expanded from Prof's limiting suggestion of "the plethora of ICT industry associations that are not effective" to include those which are effective so that others can learn from them as well.
Waudo www.cskonline.org
On Mon, 05 Apr 2010 02:38 -0500, [email protected] wrote: > Dear listers, > Did we not have a similar meeting not too long ago? I think it was > about two years or so. Cant remember who had organized it but it was > there at KICC. Same theme of taking stock of all ICT bodies. Cant > remember if the Government agencies were represented. > > Not that I have a problem with yet another similar meeting, but we > need to clearly set out what we want to achieve with that kind of > gathering. Its common knowledge that the ICT industry is awash with > all manner of associations/organizations and Government bodies. Isn't > it time that we had the sort of organization that we see with other > professions like Accountants and Lawyers etc? Isn't it time that the > Government created a statutory industry association? This can easily > be achieved by such legislation as the policy document presented by > the PS the other day, or the Communications Act that was passed not > too long ago. > > Inasmuch as the Government so believes in the increasing importance > that ICT plays in the economy, then its imperative that we have an > industry body that would take care of all others, say like a CSK that > is recognized by an Act of parliament. > > Regards, > Ikua > > Quoting Mwololo Tim <[email protected]>: > > > Dear all, > > The discussion needs to be on the institutional framework for ICTs > > in Kenya, not just on KICTB. It needs to cover KICTB, NCS and > > DEG/GITS. It also needs to include the plethora of ICT industry associations that are not effective. > > I can organize such a townhall meeting in Chiromo like the first one. > > However, for such a meeting to be useful, it needs to be preceded > > by some guided discussion on the same. Alternatively, one or two > > persons can prepare presenations to guide the discussions, with > > these presentations being made available earlier for participants > > to acquint with them. I am also prepared to be one of those > > persons. tim > > > > On Sun, Apr 4, 2010 at 9:10 PM, Barrack Otieno > > <[email protected]>wrote: > > > >> Daktari, > >> > >> Thank you for setting the ball rolling, not sure i saw the > >> document as well it must have been hijacked. A town hall meeting > >> is a welcome idea i second it, Kippra felt sufficiently > >> philanthropic before the last town hall meeting i wonder whether > >> they can double their offer during this easter season, bwn Magolo > >> can we count on you. Walu can set the agenda. > >> > >> Regards > >> > >> On Sun, Apr 4, 2010 at 7:28 PM, Solomon Mburu Kamau > >> <[email protected]> wrote: > >> > On 04/04/2010, [email protected] <[email protected]> wrote: > >> >> Barrack, > >> >> Several posts have come by on the role of ICT and I think it > >> >> will be > >> wise > >> >> if we sorted this in a town hall meeting similar to one we had > >> >> on > >> Malili. > >> >> Honestly it feels as though some Neanderthal decided to create > >> >> these agencies without putting some thought to it. Criticisms > >> >> are good only when you point out where there are gaps. > >> >> > >> >> The other day I posted a policy proposal for comments but only > >> >> one > >> person > >> >> did respond. What it means then is that this forum ni ya > >> >> kuchongoana > >> tu. > >> > > >> > Dakitari, with due respect, would you mind resending the policy > >> > proposals as a new thread so that interested parties may respond? > >> > If sent within this thread, I'm afraid they'll be swallowed > >> > along the > >> way. > >> > > >> >> Which really is unfortunate. I have four other policy > >> >> proposals that I really think should push through then arouse > >> >> sufficient interest from > >> the > >> >> membership here. > >> > > >> > I also think you should send them so that we react to the contents! > >> >> > >> >> > >> >> Ndemo. > >> >> > >> >> > >> >>> This is truly "Jicho Pevu", i think some answers to this > >> >>> questions are very much in order as we celebrate Easter, can > >> >>> someone provide us with a list of all agencies involved in > >> >>> ICTs and ICT4D so that we can do some tooth comb analysis, i > >> >>> saw a post from Paul on what the board has achieved early > >> >>> this year, that was very much in order we need something from NCS as well plus any other agencies. > >> >>> > >> >>> Regards > >> >>> > >> >>> On Sat, Apr 3, 2010 at 12:50 PM, Vitalis Olunga > >> >>> <[email protected]> > >> wrote: > >> >>>> There is also another body , National Communications > >> >>>> Secretarait. What is the diffrence between NCS and ICT Baord > >> >>>> and how do the two bodies > >> relate > >> >>>> with respect to advisory services to the governement on ICT matters? > >> >>>> > >> >>>> Regards > >> >>>> > >> >>>> > >> >>>> Vitalis > >> >>>> > >> >>>> ________________________________ > >> >>>> From: robert yawe <[email protected]> > >> >>>> To: [email protected] > >> >>>> Cc: KICTAnet ICT Policy Discussions > >> >>>> <[email protected]> > >> >>>> Sent: Sat, April 3, 2010 12:03:22 PM > >> >>>> Subject: Re: [kictanet] Who is ICT Board? Hijacked > >> >>>> > >> >>>> Hi, > >> >>>> I rest my case on this issue, the ICT Board is a monolith, > >> >>>> Try reading this... (pdf file), as I feared it is mandated to > >> >>>> do anything and everything under the sun that could be called > >> >>>> ICT which includes your microwave oven and copier. > >> >>>> Functions of Kenya ICT Board > >> >>>> The core functions of Kenya ICT Board as documented in the > >> >>>> Kenya > >> Gazette > >> >>>> Legal Notice No 26 of the May 2007: > >> >>>> ? To advice the government on all relevant matters > >> >>>> pertaining to development, coordination (remember the PM > >> >>>> post) and promotion of ICT industries in the country. > >> >>>> ? Promote both locally and internationally the opportunities > >> >>>> for investments in ICT technology ? Facilitate and manage > >> >>>> ICT industrial incubation parks and > >> technology > >> >>>> parks together with associated facilities on sites, estates and land. > >> >>>> ? Partner with agents within and without the country to > >> >>>> carry out > >> such > >> >>>> functions as it may consider necessary. > >> >>>> ? To transform and empower society through deployment and > >> >>>> use of > >> ICTs. > >> >>>> ? Carry out any other activity to promote and develop ICT > >> >>>> products > >> and > >> >>>> services. > >> >>>> Have a restful Easter as we await the limited range 4G, yes > >> >>>> you > >> guessed > >> >>>> it I > >> >>>> still have a 3G issue and I am in Nairobi. > >> >>>> Regards > >> >>>> > >> >>>> > >> >>>> > >> >>>> > >> >>>> _______________________________________________ > >> >>>> kictanet mailing list > >> >>>> [email protected] > >> >>>> http://lists.kictanet.or.ke/mailman/listinfo/kictanet > >> >>>> > >> >>>> This message was sent to: [email protected] > >> >>>> Unsubscribe or change your options at > >> >>>> > >> http://lists.kictanet.or.ke/mailman/options/kictanet/otieno.barrac > >> k%40gmail.com > >> >>>> > >> >>>> > >> >>> > >> >>> > >> >>> > >> >>> -- > >> >>> Barrack O. Otieno > >> >>> Geneva > >> >>> Skype: barrack.otieno > >> >>> > >> >>> _______________________________________________ > >> >>> kictanet mailing list > >> >>> [email protected] > >> >>> http://lists.kictanet.or.ke/mailman/listinfo/kictanet > >> >>> > >> >>> This message was sent to: [email protected] Unsubscribe or > >> >>> change your options at > >> >>> > >> http://lists.kictanet.or.ke/mailman/options/kictanet/bitange%40jam > >> bo.co.ke > >> >>> > >> >>> ---------------------------------------------- > >> >>> This message has been scanned for viruses and dangerous > >> >>> content by Jambo MailScanner, and is believed to be clean. > >> >>> --------------------------------------------- > >> >>> "easy access to the world" > >> >>> > >> >>> > >> >> > >> >> > >> >> > >> >> ---------------------------------------------- > >> >> This message has been scanned for viruses and dangerous content > >> >> by Jambo MailScanner, and is believed to be clean. > >> >> --------------------------------------------- > >> >> "easy access to the world" > >> >> > >> >> > >> >> _______________________________________________ > >> >> kictanet mailing list > >> >> [email protected] > >> >> http://lists.kictanet.or.ke/mailman/listinfo/kictanet > >> >> > >> >> This message was sent to: [email protected] Unsubscribe or > >> >> change your options at > >> >> > >> http://lists.kictanet.or.ke/mailman/options/kictanet/solo.mburu%40 > >> gmail.com > >> >> > >> > > >> > > >> > -- > >> > Solomon Mb?r? Kamau > >> > P.O. Box 19343 - 00202 Nairobi > >> > Cell: (+254-0) 735 431041 > >> > > >> > Man is a gregarious animal and enjoys agreement as cows will > >> > graze all the same way to the side of a hill! > >> > > >> > AND > >> > > >> > It is better to die in dignity than in the ignomity of ambiguous > >> generosity! > >> > > >> > http://dawn-in-kenya.blogspot.com http://smiley2.wordpress.com > >> > http://mburu.sikika.co.ke > >> > > >> > _______________________________________________ > >> > kictanet mailing list > >> > [email protected] > >> > http://lists.kictanet.or.ke/mailman/listinfo/kictanet > >> > > >> > This message was sent to: [email protected] Unsubscribe > >> > or change your options at > >> http://lists.kictanet.or.ke/mailman/options/kictanet/otieno.barrac > >> k%40gmail.com > >> > > >> > >> > >> > >> -- > >> Barrack O. 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Charles - I agree with Evans completely. The title of your mail refers to "Associations Merger" while in the substance of the mail you talk of "Federation". In a federation individual associations maintain their identity while in a merger they are swallowed up by one behemothic entity. A federation is practical where, as Charles indicates, over-arching and cross-cutting issues need to be addressed. There is also a practical aspect when engaging government. Otherwise specialist associations keep coming up according to need and technology changes and someone trying to stop or curtail them would be doing a dis-service. Just the other day on this list I was reading of a new association for those interested in software testing. That's OK. It will move the country ahead. A Federation should be a "thin" entity rather than a full-blown association to avoid competing or duplicating what the sub-associatons are doing. It can even operate with just one member of staff as it is just a "special service vehicle". For it to be widely accepted it is important for it to be developed BOTTOM-UP with the full participation of the underlying associations. A federation that is set up and then imposed can never work. Just to repeat that in our case of a couple of years ago we agreed to implement federation for INDUSTRY associations through the KEPSA ICT Board and so far that is working very very well. Kind Regards, Waudo On Wed, 14 Apr 2010 03:00 -0500, [email protected] wrote:
Charles, That is very true. For instance, all the bodies that fall under KEPSA still maintain their identity. So, having one main ICT federation does not mean that we for instance will cease existing as LPA and pursuing our own agenda. But we have a sumit body through which we can easily get heard.
Its like the surveyors who share one body with Architects and Quantity Surveyors etc. They are chapters within the main body but they still have their own identity.
Ikua
Quoting charles nduati <[email protected]>:
Hi Sam,
The rationale for federations is based on the fact that many issues in sub sub sectors are CROSS CUTTING. e.g. all sectors in all industries across the country have a problem with power, security etc. so its make no sense for government to give audience to 1000 industry representatives to hear the same exact thing. that s why KEPSA was formed to distill the sector issues and give the government ONE PAGE OF PRIORITY ISSUES.
cheers all
Charles Nduati
On Fri, 09 Apr 2010 08:32 EEST Sam Aguyo wrote:
Hello Colleagues,
I wonder wether it would be possible to merge the various associations into one. First we need to ask ourselves why they are formed, who finances them and the mandate of each.
ICT is dynamic - self destructing, the associations may follow the same principle. A more feasible approach is to ensure they deliver on there mandate.
Sam hi Walu,
I ment that constatine was the first pope of the merged factions of which he made christianity compulsory more like the KANU of the 90s i.e. BABA NA MAMA. st. peter was more like george okado the founding chairman of computer society
Thanks shah for keeping the KIF spirit alive.
charles
On Thu, 08 Apr 2010 08:19 EEST Walubengo J wrote:
Charles,
At the risk of starting a religious debate, ...jst wanted to clarify. 1st Pope was never Constantine but St. Peter...in the 1st Century. Constantine came on the scene 300years later.... http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Constantine_I ...
walu.
--- On Thu, 4/8/10, charles nduati <[email protected]> wrote:
From: charles nduati <[email protected]> Subject: Re: [kictanet] ICT ASSOCIATIONS MERGER To: [email protected] Cc: [email protected] Date: Thursday, April 8, 2010, 7:49 AM
Hi listers,
I have truly enjoyed this debate especially having been the first founding executive director of KENYA ICT FEDERATION (KIF) With other industry captains like mike eldon our founder chairman and all chairmen of the then 12 existing ICT associations i.e. 2003. our vision was exactly what this debate is about and we anchored KIF under KEPSA. as Dr. siganga said, there is no need of recreating the wheel. just contact Dr. kevit desai the KIF governor at KEPSA and ask him to adopt all ICT associations and stakeholders in KEPSA through KIF.
believe me folks, if the ROMAN KING CONSTANTINE hadn t merged all christian sects and made himself the first POPE, christianity would not have survived 2000 years and be so successful in its mission
good day all
charles nduati
On Wed, 07 Apr 2010 21:34 EEST Harry Delano wrote:
Al Kags,
That is why this town hall meeting may be important. Actually Harry (Hare), came up with a more brilliant idea that would require us to make this to be more of an evaluation process - that would create a "need" for either overhaul or improvement in structures and processes. This could be enacted by Govt, either through legislation, or an executive decision.
Mr. Kukubo, also had a good suggestion that we cast the net wider, to draw in as many stakeholers as we can. This, I suppose would be be a perfect chance for us, to tick each of these agencies off the list, enumerating their roles, mandate, and how this all should fit in the bigger picture across the national ICT Landscape. I suppose, we need to hold to account those tasked with a mandate..
So I suppose, the question we should be asking ourselves, is where do we first start - The town hall meeting..? And how do we cast this net wider for participation..?
Harry
_____
From: [email protected] [mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf Of Al Kags Sent: Wednesday, April 07, 2010 8:45 PM To: [email protected] Cc: KICTAnet ICT Policy Discussions Subject: Re: [kictanet] Who is ICT Board? Hijacked
Gilda, you are right that all organisations need to meet their obligations effectively. I wonder though whether some of them are not duplicated? especially some that we have seen listed on this thread?
On Wed, Apr 7, 2010 at 4:40 PM, <[email protected]> wrote:
Hi Harry,
I believe the various organisations are all playing their own unique roles. Key thing is for each to meet it's obligations effectively. Tim Waema's proposal on the discussion of various organisations and their mandate is no doubt a good idea to get things cleared and for industry to continue giving their input so that the organisations are well designed.
Best,
Gilda
Quoting Harry Delano <[email protected]>:
S. Murigi,
Hey is it an ipad you typing on....?? Anyways, just on a lighter note...
So, what could be the best way forward? It seems, we just got a whole
of organizations out here, some of them I'm hearing for the 1st time..
Harry
-----Original Message----- From: [email protected] [mailto:kictanet-bounces+harry <mailto:kictanet-bounces%2Bharry> [email protected]] On Behalf Of S.Murigi Muraya Sent: Wednesday, April 07, 2010 3:25 PM To: [email protected] Cc: KICTAnet ICT Policy Discussions Subject: Re: [kictanet] Who is ICT Board? Hijacked
About 2 years ago went to the KICTB offices then at Waiyaki Way. My
then was to find out what they were about.
Was referred to a visibly irritated fellow who was done with me in less
1 minute only telling me to check the KICTB website.
Have waited to see what they would come up with and am not too disappointed. For one they organize, co sponsor or market industry events that yuppies can be involved in without falling asleep. Being sort of experienced in the professional tech skills development field this can authoritatively say
myriad purpose than this
is one of the 'enabling situations' we have lacked locally.
We need skills but companies are not willing to train unethical techies who jump ship immediately after being sharpened. On the other hand techies are unable to effectively educate themselves without corporate or tech community support eg. www.ihub.co.ke
Training centers are not too doing well financially & cannot hire the best (often more experienced) techies because corporates are not training as much as they should. By working with industry giants (eg Google, Microsoft, Oracle) & their partners the KICTB is somehow helping educate techies via these industry events.
If anything, the KICTB needs to exist for this purpose -> to help build capacity in the local tech industry. They are exposing budding software entreprenuers to Indian outsourcing practices to name another 'situation' they are enabling. GITS, NCS etc do not do this as far as I know.
Nimechoka - typing on a mobile.
SMM
-----Original Message----- From: Barrack Otieno <[email protected]> Sent: Monday, April 05, 2010 16:52 To: [email protected] Cc: KICTAnet ICT Policy Discussions <[email protected]> Subject: Re: [kictanet] Who is ICT Board? Hijacked
Dr. Siganga,
Your write up makes sense, i guess we have been mixing too many issues, in other words we handle government agencies and industry associations separately, sounds like the meeting is a welcome idea, i suggest government agencies first.
Regards
On Mon, Apr 5, 2010 at 3:03 PM, waudo siganga <[email protected]> wrote: > Hi Evans, all - we have discussed the issue of a statutory body to > regulate ICT professionalism on this list in the past and the > discussion did not go far. Some said that we would be interfering with > "innovation". Some mentioned Bill Gates as a guy who has done much but > does not have any professional qualification. Yet others had other > stories (e.g. the three blind men story from Brian and his note to > Walu on 7/7/08: >> I beg to differ. ICT is too large, too deep and too wide to have a >> single, authoritative, representative body. What you refer to would >> probably be more appropriate to some of the professional disciplines >> within the ICT sector e.g. Software Developers Guild, System >> Administrators Association, CIO/CTO Society - within which there can >> be certain codes of behavior, ethics, values, best practices etc... > > On 10/9/08 on this list I re-introduced the topic of a statutory body > such as LSK,ICPAK, ... to guide the ICT profession. In my mail I even > included a "draft ICT Professionals Act". The idea received cold > water except from Kamotho. > > One distinction between "profession" and "Industry". In my mind I see > statutory bodies as more regulating "profession" rather than "industry". > Industry bodies are normally private sector initiatives formed by > interested persons to achieve common goals. I can be surprised to hear > the government being asked to help set up an "industry" association of > any type. Private sector associations engage the government, so how > can the same government be involved in their set up? The other > axiomatic thing about associations is that the ones that do not > deliver invariably die a natural death - and there are many examples > of this in Kenya even within ICT. It is not difficult to set up a > membership association (just like a Church or Club which are set up under the same "Societies Act"). > People cannot be stopped from setting up associations because the > Constitution guarantees freedom of association. This means those who > have any bright ideas that are not accommodated by existing > associations cannot have an excuse or choose to take up the role of > professional hecklers of existing associations. > > Within ICT we agreed some years to accommodate multiple associations > which then converge under KEPSA umbrella to offer a unified voice. > This I think is working very well as recently exemplified at the Prime > Minister's Round Table where ICT issues were very well articulated. > > With regard to Prof's suggestion to discuss government agencies and > private sector associations at the same meeting I think that would > create much confusion and even opportunities for red herrings to be > thrown around. It is mixing oranges and apples. The word "association" > is actually a short form. The exact terminology is "membership > association". An association is made up of members who voluntarily > come together and run their interests. The members have their own > channels to discuss their issues. It does not take much imagination to > realize that someone who is NOT a "member" is unlikely to have > overflowing goodwill towards (leave alone information about) the > association. However, associations face a lot of challenges and a > specific get together of associations to discuss best practices and > ways of being sustainable and more effective would be welcome. The > Business Advocacy Fund is for example doing a great and positive job > in the direction of capacity building and funding. Well done to them. > Another useful type of meeting is the type you refer to that was held > at KICC a couple of years ago where associations can inform a wider > audience about their activities and roles and, perhaps, recruit more members. Overall, an associations' > meeting should be a focused one and not be mixed up with one for > government agencies; and guest list should be expanded from Prof's > limiting suggestion of "the plethora of ICT industry associations that > are not effective" to include those which are effective so that others > can learn from them as well. > > Waudo > www.cskonline.org > > > On Mon, 05 Apr 2010 02:38 -0500, [email protected] wrote: >> Dear listers, >> Did we not have a similar meeting not too long ago? I think it was >> about two years or so. Cant remember who had organized it but it was >> there at KICC. Same theme of taking stock of all ICT bodies. Cant >> remember if the Government agencies were represented. >> >> Not that I have a problem with yet another similar meeting, but we >> need to clearly set out what we want to achieve with that kind of >> gathering. Its common knowledge that the ICT industry is awash with >> all manner of associations/organizations and Government bodies. Isn't >> it time that we had the sort of organization that we see with other >> professions like Accountants and Lawyers etc? Isn't it time that the >> Government created a statutory industry association? This can easily >> be achieved by such legislation as the policy document presented by >> the PS the other day, or the Communications Act that was passed not >> too long ago. >> >> Inasmuch as the Government so believes in the increasing importance >> that ICT plays in the economy, then its imperative that we have an >> industry body that would take care of all others, say like a CSK that >> is recognized by an Act of parliament. >> >> Regards, >> Ikua >> >> Quoting Mwololo Tim <[email protected]>: >> >> > Dear all, >> > The discussion needs to be on the institutional framework for ICTs >> > in Kenya, not just on KICTB. It needs to cover KICTB, NCS and >> > DEG/GITS. It also needs to include the plethora of ICT industry associations that are not effective. >> > I can organize such a townhall meeting in Chiromo like the first one. >> > However, for such a meeting to be useful, it needs to be preceded >> > by some guided discussion on the same. Alternatively, one or two >> > persons can prepare presenations to guide the discussions, with >> > these presentations being made available earlier for participants >> > to acquint with them. I am also prepared to be one of those >> > persons. tim >> > >> > On Sun, Apr 4, 2010 at 9:10 PM, Barrack Otieno >> > <[email protected]>wrote: >> > >> >> Daktari, >> >> >> >> Thank you for setting the ball rolling, not sure i saw the >> >> document as well it must have been hijacked. A town hall meeting >> >> is a welcome idea i second it, Kippra felt sufficiently >> >> philanthropic before the last town hall meeting i wonder whether >> >> they can double their offer during this easter season, bwn Magolo >> >> can we count on you. Walu can set the agenda. >> >> >> >> Regards >> >> >> >> On Sun, Apr 4, 2010 at 7:28 PM, Solomon Mburu Kamau >> >> <[email protected]> wrote: >> >> > On 04/04/2010, [email protected] <[email protected]> wrote: >> >> >> Barrack, >> >> >> Several posts have come by on the role of ICT and I think it >> >> >> will be >> >> wise >> >> >> if we sorted this in a town hall meeting similar to one we had >> >> >> on >> >> Malili. >> >> >> Honestly it feels as though some Neanderthal decided to create >> >> >> these agencies without putting some thought to it. Criticisms >> >> >> are good only when you point out where there are gaps. >> >> >> >> >> >> The other day I posted a policy proposal for comments but only >> >> >> one >> >> person >> >> >> did respond. What it means then is that this forum ni ya >> >> >> kuchongoana >> >> tu. >> >> > >> >> > Dakitari, with due respect, would you mind resending the policy >> >> > proposals as a new thread so that interested parties may respond? >> >> > If sent within this thread, I'm afraid they'll be swallowed >> >> > along the >> >> way. >> >> > >> >> >> Which really is unfortunate. I have four other policy >> >> >> proposals that I really think should push through then arouse >> >> >> sufficient interest from >> >> the >> >> >> membership here. >> >> > >> >> > I also think you should send them so that we react to the contents! >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> Ndemo. >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >>> This is truly "Jicho Pevu", i think some answers to this >> >> >>> questions are very much in order as we celebrate Easter, can >> >> >>> someone provide us with a list of all agencies involved in >> >> >>> ICTs and ICT4D so that we can do some tooth comb analysis, i >> >> >>> saw a post from Paul on what the board has achieved early >> >> >>> this year, that was very much in order we need something from NCS as well plus any other agencies. >> >> >>> >> >> >>> Regards >> >> >>> >> >> >>> On Sat, Apr 3, 2010 at 12:50 PM, Vitalis Olunga >> >> >>> <[email protected]> >> >> wrote: >> >> >>>> There is also another body , National Communications >> >> >>>> Secretarait. What is the diffrence between NCS and ICT Baord >> >> >>>> and how do the two bodies >> >> relate >> >> >>>> with respect to advisory services to the governement on ICT matters? >> >> >>>> >> >> >>>> Regards >> >> >>>> >> >> >>>> >> >> >>>> Vitalis >> >> >>>> >> >> >>>> ________________________________ >> >> >>>> From: robert yawe <[email protected]> >> >> >>>> To: [email protected] >> >> >>>> Cc: KICTAnet ICT Policy Discussions >> >> >>>> <[email protected]> >> >> >>>> Sent: Sat, April 3, 2010 12:03:22 PM >> >> >>>> Subject: Re: [kictanet] Who is ICT Board? Hijacked >> >> >>>> >> >> >>>> Hi, >> >> >>>> I rest my case on this issue, the ICT Board is a monolith, >> >> >>>> Try reading this... (pdf file), as I feared it is mandated to >> >> >>>> do anything and everything under the sun that could be called >> >> >>>> ICT which includes your microwave oven and copier. >> >> >>>> Functions of Kenya ICT Board >> >> >>>> The core functions of Kenya ICT Board as documented in the >> >> >>>> Kenya >> >> Gazette >> >> >>>> Legal Notice No 26 of the May 2007: >> >> >>>> ? To advice the government on all relevant matters >> >> >>>> pertaining to development, coordination (remember the PM >> >> >>>> post) and promotion of ICT industries in the country. >> >> >>>> ? Promote both locally and internationally the opportunities >> >> >>>> for investments in ICT technology ? Facilitate and manage >> >> >>>> ICT industrial incubation parks and >> >> technology >> >> >>>> parks together with associated facilities on sites, estates and land. >> >> >>>> ? Partner with agents within and without the country to >> >> >>>> carry out >> >> such >> >> >>>> functions as it may consider necessary. >> >> >>>> ? To transform and empower society through deployment and >> >> >>>> use of >> >> ICTs. >> >> >>>> ? Carry out any other activity to promote and develop ICT >> >> >>>> products >> >> and >> >> >>>> services. >> >> >>>> Have a restful Easter as we await the limited range 4G, yes >> >> >>>> you >> >> guessed >> >> >>>> it I >> >> >>>> still have a 3G issue and I am in Nairobi. >> >> >>>> Regards >> >> >>>> >> >> >>>> >> >> >>>> >> >> >>>> >> >> >>>> _______________________________________________ >> >> >>>> kictanet mailing list >> >> >>>> [email protected] >> >> >>>> http://lists.kictanet.or.ke/mailman/listinfo/kictanet >> >> >>>> >> >> >>>> This message was sent to: [email protected] >> >> >>>> Unsubscribe or change your options at >> >> >>>> >> >> http://lists.kictanet.or.ke/mailman/options/kictanet/otieno.barrac >> >> k%40gmail.com >> >> >>>> >> >> >>>> >> >> >>> >> >> >>> >> >> >>> >> >> >>> -- >> >> >>> Barrack O. Otieno >> >> >>> Geneva >> >> >>> Skype: barrack.otieno >> >> >>> >> >> >>> _______________________________________________ >> >> >>> kictanet mailing list >> >> >>> [email protected] >> >> >>> http://lists.kictanet.or.ke/mailman/listinfo/kictanet >> >> >>> >> >> >>> This message was sent to: [email protected] Unsubscribe or >> >> >>> change your options at >> >> >>> >> >> http://lists.kictanet.or.ke/mailman/options/kictanet/bitange%40jam >> >> bo.co.ke >> >> >>> >> >> >>> ---------------------------------------------- >> >> >>> This message has been scanned for viruses and dangerous >> >> >>> content by Jambo MailScanner, and is believed to be clean. >> >> >>> --------------------------------------------- >> >> >>> "easy access to the world" >> >> >>> >> >> >>> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> ---------------------------------------------- >> >> >> This message has been scanned for viruses and dangerous content >> >> >> by Jambo MailScanner, and is believed to be clean. >> >> >> --------------------------------------------- >> >> >> "easy access to the world" >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> >> >> kictanet mailing list >> >> >> [email protected] >> >> >> http://lists.kictanet.or.ke/mailman/listinfo/kictanet >> >> >> >> >> >> This message was sent to: [email protected] Unsubscribe or >> >> >> change your options at >> >> >> >> >> http://lists.kictanet.or.ke/mailman/options/kictanet/solo.mburu%40 >> >> gmail.com >> >> >> >> >> > >> >> > >> >> > -- >> >> > Solomon Mb?r? Kamau >> >> > P.O. Box 19343 - 00202 Nairobi >> >> > Cell: (+254-0) 735 431041 >> >> > >> >> > Man is a gregarious animal and enjoys agreement as cows will >> >> > graze all the same way to the side of a hill! >> >> > >> >> > AND >> >> > >> >> > It is better to die in dignity than in the ignomity of ambiguous >> >> generosity! >> >> > >> >> > http://dawn-in-kenya.blogspot.com http://smiley2.wordpress.com >> >> > http://mburu.sikika.co.ke >> >> > >> >> > _______________________________________________ >> >> > kictanet mailing list >> >> > [email protected] >> >> > http://lists.kictanet.or.ke/mailman/listinfo/kictanet >> >> > >> >> > This message was sent to: [email protected] Unsubscribe >> >> > or change your options at >> >> http://lists.kictanet.or.ke/mailman/options/kictanet/otieno.barrac >> >> k%40gmail.com >> >> > >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> -- >> >> Barrack O. Otieno >> >> Palais de Nations Genéve >> >> Skype: barrack.otieno >> >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> >> kictanet mailing list >> >> [email protected] >> >> http://lists.kictanet.or.ke/mailman/listinfo/kictanet >> >> >> >> This message was sent to: [email protected] Unsubscribe or >> >> change your options at >> >> http://lists.kictanet.or.ke/mailman/options/kictanet/timwololo%40g >> >> mail.com >> >> >> > >> >> >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> kictanet mailing list >> [email protected] >> http://lists.kictanet.or.ke/mailman/listinfo/kictanet >> >> This message was sent to: [email protected] Unsubscribe or >> change your options at >> http://lists.kictanet.or.ke/mailman/options/kictanet/emailsignet%40ma >> ilcan.com >> > > _______________________________________________ > kictanet mailing list > [email protected] > http://lists.kictanet.or.ke/mailman/listinfo/kictanet > > This message was sent to: [email protected] Unsubscribe or > change your options at > http://lists.kictanet.or.ke/mailman/options/kictanet/otieno.barrack%40 > gmail.com >
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Thanks Charles for your feedback, however if you go back to the previous discussions as well as the title of the subject, members discussed ways and means of merging the varied associations which in my opinion is not feasible. I think this thread came from Charles,
I ment that ...... was the first ....... of the merged factions of which he made christianity compulsory more like the KANU of the 90s i.e. BABA NA MAMA. .........was more like george okado the founding chairman of computer society...... Regards,
Sam ________________________________ From: waudo siganga <[email protected]> To: [email protected] Cc: KICTAnet ICT Policy Discussions <[email protected]> Sent: Wed, April 14, 2010 11:51:46 AM Subject: Re: [kictanet] RATIONALE OF ICT ASSOCIATIONS MERGER Charles - I agree with Evans completely. The title of your mail refers to "Associations Merger" while in the substance of the mail you talk of "Federation". In a federation individual associations maintain their identity while in a merger they are swallowed up by one behemothic entity. A federation is practical where, as Charles indicates, over-arching and cross-cutting issues need to be addressed. There is also a practical aspect when engaging government. Otherwise specialist associations keep coming up according to need and technology changes and someone trying to stop or curtail them would be doing a dis-service. Just the other day on this list I was reading of a new association for those interested in software testing. That's OK. It will move the country ahead. A Federation should be a "thin" entity rather than a full-blown association to avoid competing or duplicating what the sub-associatons are doing. It can even operate with just one member of staff as it is just a "special service vehicle". For it to be widely accepted it is important for it to be developed BOTTOM-UP with the full participation of the underlying associations. A federation that is set up and then imposed can never work. Just to repeat that in our case of a couple of years ago we agreed to implement federation for INDUSTRY associations through the KEPSA ICT Board and so far that is working very very well. Kind Regards, Waudo On Wed, 14 Apr 2010 03:00 -0500, [email protected] wrote:
Charles, That is very true. For instance, all the bodies that fall under KEPSA still maintain their identity. So, having one main ICT federation does not mean that we for instance will cease existing as LPA and pursuing our own agenda. But we have a sumit body through which we can easily get heard.
Its like the surveyors who share one body with Architects and Quantity Surveyors etc. They are chapters within the main body but they still have their own identity.
Ikua
Quoting charles nduati <[email protected]>:
Hi Sam,
The rationale for federations is based on the fact that many issues in sub sub sectors are CROSS CUTTING. e.g. all sectors in all industries across the country have a problem with power, security etc. so its make no sense for government to give audience to 1000 industry representatives to hear the same exact thing. that s why KEPSA was formed to distill the sector issues and give the government ONE PAGE OF PRIORITY ISSUES.
cheers all
Charles Nduati
On Fri, 09 Apr 2010 08:32 EEST Sam Aguyo wrote:
Hello Colleagues,
I wonder wether it would be possible to merge the various associations into one. First we need to ask ourselves why they are formed, who finances them and the mandate of each.
ICT is dynamic - self destructing, the associations may follow the same principle. A more feasible approach is to ensure they deliver on there mandate.
Sam hi Walu,
I ment that constatine was the first pope of the merged factions of which he made christianity compulsory more like the KANU of the 90s i.e. BABA NA MAMA. st. peter was more like george okado the founding chairman of computer society
Thanks shah for keeping the KIF spirit alive.
charles
On Thu, 08 Apr 2010 08:19 EEST Walubengo J wrote:
Charles,
At the risk of starting a religious debate, ...jst wanted to clarify. 1st Pope was never Constantine but St. Peter...in the 1st Century. Constantine came on the scene 300years later.... http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Constantine_I ...
walu.
--- On Thu, 4/8/10, charles nduati <[email protected]> wrote:
From: charles nduati <[email protected]> Subject: Re: [kictanet] ICT ASSOCIATIONS MERGER To: [email protected] Cc: [email protected] Date: Thursday, April 8, 2010, 7:49 AM
Hi listers,
I have truly enjoyed this debate especially having been the first founding executive director of KENYA ICT FEDERATION (KIF) With other industry captains like mike eldon our founder chairman and all chairmen of the then 12 existing ICT associations i.e. 2003. our vision was exactly what this debate is about and we anchored KIF under KEPSA. as Dr. siganga said, there is no need of recreating the wheel. just contact Dr. kevit desai the KIF governor at KEPSA and ask him to adopt all ICT associations and stakeholders in KEPSA through KIF.
believe me folks, if the ROMAN KING CONSTANTINE hadn t merged all christian sects and made himself the first POPE, christianity would not have survived 2000 years and be so successful in its mission
good day all
charles nduati
On Wed, 07 Apr 2010 21:34 EEST Harry Delano wrote:
Al Kags,
That is why this town hall meeting may be important. Actually Harry (Hare), came up with a more brilliant idea that would require us to make this to be more of an evaluation process - that would create a "need" for either overhaul or improvement in structures and processes. This could be enacted by Govt, either through legislation, or an executive decision.
Mr. Kukubo, also had a good suggestion that we cast the net wider, to draw in as many stakeholers as we can. This, I suppose would be be a perfect chance for us, to tick each of these agencies off the list, enumerating their roles, mandate, and how this all should fit in the bigger picture across the national ICT Landscape. I suppose, we need to hold to account those tasked with a mandate..
So I suppose, the question we should be asking ourselves, is where do we first start - The town hall meeting..? And how do we cast this net wider for participation..?
Harry
_____
From: [email protected] [mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf Of Al Kags Sent: Wednesday, April 07, 2010 8:45 PM To: [email protected] Cc: KICTAnet ICT Policy Discussions Subject: Re: [kictanet] Who is ICT Board? Hijacked
Gilda, you are right that all organisations need to meet their obligations effectively. I wonder though whether some of them are not duplicated? especially some that we have seen listed on this thread?
On Wed, Apr 7, 2010 at 4:40 PM, <[email protected]> wrote:
Hi Harry,
I believe the various organisations are all playing their own unique roles. Key thing is for each to meet it's obligations effectively. Tim Waema's proposal on the discussion of various organisations and their mandate is no doubt a good idea to get things cleared and for industry to continue giving their input so that the organisations are well designed.
Best,
Gilda
Quoting Harry Delano <[email protected]>:
S. Murigi,
Hey is it an ipad you typing on....?? Anyways, just on a lighter note...
So, what could be the best way forward? It seems, we just got a whole
of organizations out here, some of them I'm hearing for the 1st time..
Harry
-----Original Message----- From: [email protected] [mailto:kictanet-bounces+harry <mailto:kictanet-bounces%2Bharry> [email protected]] On Behalf Of S.Murigi Muraya Sent: Wednesday, April 07, 2010 3:25 PM To: [email protected] Cc: KICTAnet ICT Policy Discussions Subject: Re: [kictanet] Who is ICT Board? Hijacked
About 2 years ago went to the KICTB offices then at Waiyaki Way. My
then was to find out what they were about.
Was referred to a visibly irritated fellow who was done with me in less
1 minute only telling me to check the KICTB website.
Have waited to see what they would come up with and am not too disappointed. For one they organize, co sponsor or market industry events that yuppies can be involved in without falling asleep. Being sort of experienced in the professional tech skills development field this can authoritatively say
myriad purpose than this
is one of the 'enabling situations' we have lacked locally.
We need skills but companies are not willing to train unethical techies who jump ship immediately after being sharpened. On the other hand techies are unable to effectively educate themselves without corporate or tech community support eg. www.ihub.co.ke
Training centers are not too doing well financially & cannot hire the best (often more experienced) techies because corporates are not training as much as they should. By working with industry giants (eg Google, Microsoft, Oracle) & their partners the KICTB is somehow helping educate techies via these industry events.
If anything, the KICTB needs to exist for this purpose -> to help build capacity in the local tech industry. They are exposing budding software entreprenuers to Indian outsourcing practices to name another 'situation' they are enabling. GITS, NCS etc do not do this as far as I know.
Nimechoka - typing on a mobile.
SMM
-----Original Message----- From: Barrack Otieno <[email protected]> Sent: Monday, April 05, 2010 16:52 To: [email protected] Cc: KICTAnet ICT Policy Discussions <[email protected]> Subject: Re: [kictanet] Who is ICT Board? Hijacked
Dr. Siganga,
Your write up makes sense, i guess we have been mixing too many issues, in other words we handle government agencies and industry associations separately, sounds like the meeting is a welcome idea, i suggest government agencies first.
Regards
On Mon, Apr 5, 2010 at 3:03 PM, waudo siganga <[email protected]> wrote: > Hi Evans, all - we have discussed the issue of a statutory body to > regulate ICT professionalism on this list in the past and the > discussion did not go far. Some said that we would be interfering with > "innovation". Some mentioned Bill Gates as a guy who has done much but > does not have any professional qualification. Yet others had other > stories (e.g. the three blind men story from Brian and his note to > Walu on 7/7/08: >> I beg to differ. ICT is too large, too deep and too wide to have a >> single, authoritative, representative body. What you refer to would >> probably be more appropriate to some of the professional disciplines >> within the ICT sector e.g. Software Developers Guild, System >> Administrators Association, CIO/CTO Society - within which there can >> be certain codes of behavior, ethics, values, best practices etc... > > On 10/9/08 on this list I re-introduced the topic of a statutory body > such as LSK,ICPAK, ... to guide the ICT profession. In my mail I even > included a "draft ICT Professionals Act". The idea received cold > water except from Kamotho. > > One distinction between "profession" and "Industry". In my mind I see > statutory bodies as more regulating "profession" rather than "industry". > Industry bodies are normally private sector initiatives formed by > interested persons to achieve common goals. I can be surprised to hear > the government being asked to help set up an "industry" association of > any type. Private sector associations engage the government, so how > can the same government be involved in their set up? The other > axiomatic thing about associations is that the ones that do not > deliver invariably die a natural death - and there are many examples > of this in Kenya even within ICT. It is not difficult to set up a > membership association (just like a Church or Club which are set up under the same "Societies Act"). > People cannot be stopped from setting up associations because the > Constitution guarantees freedom of association. This means those who > have any bright ideas that are not accommodated by existing > associations cannot have an excuse or choose to take up the role of > professional hecklers of existing associations. > > Within ICT we agreed some years to accommodate multiple associations > which then converge under KEPSA umbrella to offer a unified voice. > This I think is working very well as recently exemplified at the Prime > Minister's Round Table where ICT issues were very well articulated. > > With regard to Prof's suggestion to discuss government agencies and > private sector associations at the same meeting I think that would > create much confusion and even opportunities for red herrings to be > thrown around. It is mixing oranges and apples. The word "association" > is actually a short form. The exact terminology is "membership > association". An association is made up of members who voluntarily > come together and run their interests. The members have their own > channels to discuss their issues. It does not take much imagination to > realize that someone who is NOT a "member" is unlikely to have > overflowing goodwill towards (leave alone information about) the > association. However, associations face a lot of challenges and a > specific get together of associations to discuss best practices and > ways of being sustainable and more effective would be welcome. The > Business Advocacy Fund is for example doing a great and positive job > in the direction of capacity building and funding. Well done to them. > Another useful type of meeting is the type you refer to that was held > at KICC a couple of years ago where associations can inform a wider > audience about their activities and roles and, perhaps, recruit more members. Overall, an associations' > meeting should be a focused one and not be mixed up with one for > government agencies; and guest list should be expanded from Prof's > limiting suggestion of "the plethora of ICT industry associations that > are not effective" to include those which are effective so that others > can learn from them as well. > > Waudo > www.cskonline.org > > > On Mon, 05 Apr 2010 02:38 -0500, [email protected] wrote: >> Dear listers, >> Did we not have a similar meeting not too long ago? I think it was >> about two years or so. Cant remember who had organized it but it was >> there at KICC. Same theme of taking stock of all ICT bodies. Cant >> remember if the Government agencies were represented. >> >> Not that I have a problem with yet another similar meeting, but we >> need to clearly set out what we want to achieve with that kind of >> gathering. Its common knowledge that the ICT industry is awash with >> all manner of associations/organizations and Government bodies. Isn't >> it time that we had the sort of organization that we see with other >> professions like Accountants and Lawyers etc? Isn't it time that the >> Government created a statutory industry association? This can easily >> be achieved by such legislation as the policy document presented by >> the PS the other day, or the Communications Act that was passed not >> too long ago. >> >> Inasmuch as the Government so believes in the increasing importance >> that ICT plays in the economy, then its imperative that we have an >> industry body that would take care of all others, say like a CSK that >> is recognized by an Act of parliament. >> >> Regards, >> Ikua >> >> Quoting Mwololo Tim <[email protected]>: >> >> > Dear all, >> > The discussion needs to be on the institutional framework for ICTs >> > in Kenya, not just on KICTB. It needs to cover KICTB, NCS and >> > DEG/GITS. It also needs to include the plethora of ICT industry associations that are not effective. >> > I can organize such a townhall meeting in Chiromo like the first one. >> > However, for such a meeting to be useful, it needs to be preceded >> > by some guided discussion on the same. Alternatively, one or two >> > persons can prepare presenations to guide the discussions, with >> > these presentations being made available earlier for participants >> > to acquint with them. I am also prepared to be one of those >> > persons. tim >> > >> > On Sun, Apr 4, 2010 at 9:10 PM, Barrack Otieno >> > <[email protected]>wrote: >> > >> >> Daktari, >> >> >> >> Thank you for setting the ball rolling, not sure i saw the >> >> document as well it must have been hijacked. A town hall meeting >> >> is a welcome idea i second it, Kippra felt sufficiently >> >> philanthropic before the last town hall meeting i wonder whether >> >> they can double their offer during this easter season, bwn Magolo >> >> can we count on you. Walu can set the agenda. >> >> >> >> Regards >> >> >> >> On Sun, Apr 4, 2010 at 7:28 PM, Solomon Mburu Kamau >> >> <[email protected]> wrote: >> >> > On 04/04/2010, [email protected] <[email protected]> wrote: >> >> >> Barrack, >> >> >> Several posts have come by on the role of ICT and I think it >> >> >> will be >> >> wise >> >> >> if we sorted this in a town hall meeting similar to one we had >> >> >> on >> >> Malili. >> >> >> Honestly it feels as though some Neanderthal decided to create >> >> >> these agencies without putting some thought to it. Criticisms >> >> >> are good only when you point out where there are gaps. >> >> >> >> >> >> The other day I posted a policy proposal for comments but only >> >> >> one >> >> person >> >> >> did respond. What it means then is that this forum ni ya >> >> >> kuchongoana >> >> tu. >> >> > >> >> > Dakitari, with due respect, would you mind resending the policy >> >> > proposals as a new thread so that interested parties may respond? >> >> > If sent within this thread, I'm afraid they'll be swallowed >> >> > along the >> >> way. >> >> > >> >> >> Which really is unfortunate. I have four other policy >> >> >> proposals that I really think should push through then arouse >> >> >> sufficient interest from >> >> the >> >> >> membership here. >> >> > >> >> > I also think you should send them so that we react to the contents! >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> Ndemo. >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >>> This is truly "Jicho Pevu", i think some answers to this >> >> >>> questions are very much in order as we celebrate Easter, can >> >> >>> someone provide us with a list of all agencies involved in >> >> >>> ICTs and ICT4D so that we can do some tooth comb analysis, i >> >> >>> saw a post from Paul on what the board has achieved early >> >> >>> this year, that was very much in order we need something from NCS as well plus any other agencies. >> >> >>> >> >> >>> Regards >> >> >>> >> >> >>> On Sat, Apr 3, 2010 at 12:50 PM, Vitalis Olunga >> >> >>> <[email protected]> >> >> wrote: >> >> >>>> There is also another body , National Communications >> >> >>>> Secretarait. What is the diffrence between NCS and ICT Baord >> >> >>>> and how do the two bodies >> >> relate >> >> >>>> with respect to advisory services to the governement on ICT matters? >> >> >>>> >> >> >>>> Regards >> >> >>>> >> >> >>>> >> >> >>>> Vitalis >> >> >>>> >> >> >>>> ________________________________ >> >> >>>> From: robert yawe <[email protected]> >> >> >>>> To: [email protected] >> >> >>>> Cc: KICTAnet ICT Policy Discussions >> >> >>>> <[email protected]> >> >> >>>> Sent: Sat, April 3, 2010 12:03:22 PM >> >> >>>> Subject: Re: [kictanet] Who is ICT Board? Hijacked >> >> >>>> >> >> >>>> Hi, >> >> >>>> I rest my case on this issue, the ICT Board is a monolith, >> >> >>>> Try reading this... (pdf file), as I feared it is mandated to >> >> >>>> do anything and everything under the sun that could be called >> >> >>>> ICT which includes your microwave oven and copier. >> >> >>>> Functions of Kenya ICT Board >> >> >>>> The core functions of Kenya ICT Board as documented in the >> >> >>>> Kenya >> >> Gazette >> >> >>>> Legal Notice No 26 of the May 2007: >> >> >>>> ? To advice the government on all relevant matters >> >> >>>> pertaining to development, coordination (remember the PM >> >> >>>> post) and promotion of ICT industries in the country. >> >> >>>> ? Promote both locally and internationally the opportunities >> >> >>>> for investments in ICT technology ? Facilitate and manage >> >> >>>> ICT industrial incubation parks and >> >> technology >> >> >>>> parks together with associated facilities on sites, estates and land. >> >> >>>> ? Partner with agents within and without the country to >> >> >>>> carry out >> >> such >> >> >>>> functions as it may consider necessary. >> >> >>>> ? To transform and empower society through deployment and >> >> >>>> use of >> >> ICTs. >> >> >>>> ? Carry out any other activity to promote and develop ICT >> >> >>>> products >> >> and >> >> >>>> services. >> >> >>>> Have a restful Easter as we await the limited range 4G, yes >> >> >>>> you >> >> guessed >> >> >>>> it I >> >> >>>> still have a 3G issue and I am in Nairobi. >> >> >>>> Regards >> >> >>>> >> >> >>>> >> >> >>>> >> >> >>>> >> >> >>>> _______________________________________________ >> >> >>>> kictanet mailing list >> >> >>>> [email protected] >> >> >>>> http://lists.kictanet.or.ke/mailman/listinfo/kictanet >> >> >>>> >> >> >>>> This message was sent to: [email protected] >> >> >>>> Unsubscribe or change your options at >> >> >>>> >> >> http://lists.kictanet.or.ke/mailman/options/kictanet/otieno.barrac >> >> k%40gmail.com >> >> >>>> >> >> >>>> >> >> >>> >> >> >>> >> >> >>> >> >> >>> -- >> >> >>> Barrack O. 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Talking of town-halls ... There should be one to look at all associations, goals, work done {recently}, plans and potential impact - Then those of us who are new to the Kenyan IT scene can pick which to join. Also, There is a software testing board coming up. Having looked at the material they offer, the certifications that need to be done and the return on investment, I would recommend those of you in software development to consider joining There will be a meeting Saturday Morning at Jacaranda Hotel to formalize and elect leaders ( hold office for 6 month terms) Having worked in Kenyan software outsourcing industry for the last 3 years, potential clients are usually concerned about Quality and Cost. Kenya is ok cost-wise ... if we can continue to improve on quality .. there is massive potential so yes ... am lobbying that those interested in software come for the meeting Thanks On Wed, Apr 14, 2010 at 12:07 PM, Sam Aguyo <[email protected]> wrote:
Thanks Charles for your feedback, however if you go back to the previous discussions as well as the title of the subject, members discussed ways and means of merging the varied associations which in my opinion is not feasible. I think this thread came from Charles,
I ment that ...... was the first ....... of the *merged factions* of
which he made christianity compulsory more like the KANU of the 90s i.e. BABA NA MAMA. .........was more like george okado the founding chairman of computer society......
Regards,
Sam
------------------------------ *From:* waudo siganga <[email protected]> *To:* [email protected]
*Cc:* KICTAnet ICT Policy Discussions <[email protected]> *Sent:* Wed, April 14, 2010 11:51:46 AM *Subject:* Re: [kictanet] RATIONALE OF ICT ASSOCIATIONS MERGER
Charles - I agree with Evans completely. The title of your mail refers to "Associations Merger" while in the substance of the mail you talk of "Federation". In a federation individual associations maintain their identity while in a merger they are swallowed up by one behemothic entity. A federation is practical where, as Charles indicates, over-arching and cross-cutting issues need to be addressed. There is also a practical aspect when engaging government. Otherwise specialist associations keep coming up according to need and technology changes and someone trying to stop or curtail them would be doing a dis-service. Just the other day on this list I was reading of a new association for those interested in software testing. That's OK. It will move the country ahead.
A Federation should be a "thin" entity rather than a full-blown association to avoid competing or duplicating what the sub-associatons are doing. It can even operate with just one member of staff as it is just a "special service vehicle". For it to be widely accepted it is important for it to be developed BOTTOM-UP with the full participation of the underlying associations. A federation that is set up and then imposed can never work.
Just to repeat that in our case of a couple of years ago we agreed to implement federation for INDUSTRY associations through the KEPSA ICT Board and so far that is working very very well.
Kind Regards, Waudo
Charles, That is very true. For instance, all the bodies that fall under KEPSA still maintain their identity. So, having one main ICT federation does not mean that we for instance will cease existing as LPA and pursuing our own agenda. But we have a sumit body through which we can easily get heard.
Its like the surveyors who share one body with Architects and Quantity Surveyors etc. They are chapters within the main body but they still have their own identity.
Ikua
Quoting charles nduati <[email protected]>:
Hi Sam,
The rationale for federations is based on the fact that many issues in sub sub sectors are CROSS CUTTING. e.g. all sectors in all industries across the country have a problem with power, security etc. so its make no sense for government to give audience to 1000 industry representatives to hear the same exact thing. that s why KEPSA was formed to distill the sector issues and give the government ONE PAGE OF PRIORITY ISSUES.
cheers all
Charles Nduati
On Fri, 09 Apr 2010 08:32 EEST Sam Aguyo wrote:
Hello Colleagues,
I wonder wether it would be possible to merge the various associations into one. First we need to ask ourselves why they are formed, who finances them and the mandate of each.
ICT is dynamic - self destructing, the associations may follow the same principle. A more feasible approach is to ensure they deliver on there mandate.
Sam
hi Walu,
I ment that constatine was the first pope of the merged factions of which he made christianity compulsory more like the KANU of the 90s i.e. BABA NA MAMA. st. peter was more like george okado the founding chairman of computer society
Thanks shah for keeping the KIF spirit alive.
charles
On Thu, 08 Apr 2010 08:19 EEST Walubengo J wrote:
Charles,
At the risk of starting a religious debate, ...jst wanted to clarify. 1st Pope was never Constantine but St. Peter...in the 1st Century. Constantine came on the scene 300years later.... http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Constantine_I ...
walu.
--- On Thu, 4/8/10, charles nduati <[email protected]> wrote:
From: charles nduati <[email protected]> Subject: Re: [kictanet] ICT ASSOCIATIONS MERGER To: [email protected] Cc: [email protected] Date: Thursday, April 8, 2010, 7:49 AM
Hi listers,
I have truly enjoyed this debate especially having been the first founding executive director of KENYA ICT FEDERATION (KIF) With other industry captains like mike eldon our founder chairman and all chairmen of the then 12 existing ICT associations i.e. 2003. our vision was exactly what this debate is about and we anchored KIF under KEPSA. as Dr. siganga said, there is no need of recreating the wheel. just contact Dr. kevit desai the KIF governor at KEPSA and ask him to adopt all ICT associations and stakeholders in KEPSA through KIF.
believe me folks, if the ROMAN KING CONSTANTINE hadn t merged all christian sects and made himself the first POPE, christianity would not have survived 2000 years and be so successful in its mission
good day all
charles nduati
On Wed, 07 Apr 2010 21:34 EEST Harry Delano wrote:
Al Kags,
That is why this town hall meeting may be important. Actually Harry (Hare), came up with a more brilliant idea that would require us to make this to be more of an evaluation process - that would create a "need" for either overhaul or improvement in structures and processes. This could be enacted by Govt, either through legislation, or an executive decision.
Mr. Kukubo, also had a good suggestion that we cast the net wider, to draw in as many stakeholers as we can. This, I suppose would be be a perfect chance for us, to tick each of these agencies off the list, enumerating their roles, mandate, and how this all should fit in the bigger picture across the national ICT Landscape. I suppose, we need to hold to account those tasked with a mandate..
So I suppose, the question we should be asking ourselves, is where do we first start - The town hall meeting..? And how do we cast this net wider for participation..?
Harry
_____
From: [email protected] [mailto:kictanet-bounces+harry <kictanet-bounces%2Bharry>= [email protected]] On Behalf Of Al Kags Sent: Wednesday, April 07, 2010 8:45 PM To: [email protected] Cc: KICTAnet ICT Policy Discussions Subject: Re: [kictanet] Who is ICT Board? Hijacked
Gilda, you are right that all organisations need to meet their obligations effectively. I wonder though whether some of them are not duplicated? especially some that we have seen listed on this thread?
On Wed, Apr 7, 2010 at 4:40 PM, <[email protected]> wrote:
Hi Harry,
I believe the various organisations are all playing their own unique roles. Key thing is for each to meet it's obligations effectively. Tim Waema's proposal on the discussion of various organisations and
mandate is no doubt a good idea to get things cleared and for industry to continue giving their input so that the organisations are well designed.
Best,
Gilda
Quoting Harry Delano <[email protected]>:
> > S. Murigi, > > Hey is it an ipad you typing on....?? Anyways, just on a lighter note... > > So, what could be the best way forward? It seems, we just got a whole myriad > of organizations out here, some of them I'm hearing for the 1st time.. > > Harry > > -----Original Message----- > From: [email protected] > [mailto:kictanet-bounces+harry <kictanet-bounces%2Bharry> <mailto: kictanet-bounces%2Bharry <kictanet-bounces%252Bharry>> [email protected]] On > Behalf Of S.Murigi Muraya > Sent: Wednesday, April 07, 2010 3:25 PM > To: [email protected] > Cc: KICTAnet ICT Policy Discussions > Subject: Re: [kictanet] Who is ICT Board? Hijacked > > About 2 years ago went to the KICTB offices then at Waiyaki Way. My purpose > then was to find out what they were about. > > Was referred to a visibly irritated fellow who was done with me in less than > 1 minute only telling me to check the KICTB website. > > Have waited to see what they would come up with and am not too disappointed. > For one they organize, co sponsor or market industry events that yuppies can > be involved in without falling asleep. Being sort of experienced in
> professional tech skills development field this can authoritatively say this > is one of the 'enabling situations' we have lacked locally. > > We need skills but companies are not willing to train unethical techies who > jump ship immediately after being sharpened. On the other hand > techies are > unable to effectively educate themselves without corporate or tech community > support eg. www.ihub.co.ke > > Training centers are not too doing well financially & cannot > hire the best > (often more experienced) techies because corporates are not
much > as they should. By working with industry giants (eg Google, Microsoft, > Oracle) & their partners the KICTB is somehow helping educate techies via > these industry events. > > If anything, the KICTB needs to exist for this purpose -> to help build > capacity in the local tech industry. They are exposing budding software > entreprenuers to Indian outsourcing practices to name another 'situation' > they are enabling. GITS, NCS etc do not do this as far as I know. > > Nimechoka - typing on a mobile. > > SMM > > -----Original Message----- > From: Barrack Otieno <[email protected]> > Sent: Monday, April 05, 2010 16:52 > To: [email protected] > Cc: KICTAnet ICT Policy Discussions <[email protected]
> Subject: Re: [kictanet] Who is ICT Board? Hijacked > > Dr. Siganga, > > Your write up makes sense, i guess we have been mixing too many issues, in > other words we handle government agencies and industry associations > separately, sounds like the meeting is a welcome idea, i suggest government > agencies first. > > Regards > > On Mon, Apr 5, 2010 at 3:03 PM, waudo siganga < [email protected]> > wrote: > > Hi Evans, all - we have discussed the issue of a statutory body to > > regulate ICT professionalism on this list in the past and the > > discussion did not go far. Some said that we would be interfering with > > "innovation". Some mentioned Bill Gates as a guy who has done much but > > does not have any professional qualification. Yet others had other > > stories (e.g. the three blind men story from Brian and his note to > > Walu on 7/7/08: > >> I beg to differ. ICT is too large, too deep and too wide to have a > >> single, authoritative, representative body. What you refer to would > >> probably be more appropriate to some of the professional disciplines > >> within the ICT sector e.g. Software Developers Guild, System > >> Administrators Association, CIO/CTO Society - within which there can > >> be certain codes of behavior, ethics, values, best practices etc... > > > > On 10/9/08 on this list I re-introduced the topic of a statutory
> > such as LSK,ICPAK, ... to guide the ICT profession. In my mail I even > > included a "draft ICT Professionals Act". The idea received cold > > water except from Kamotho. > > > > One distinction between "profession" and "Industry". In my mind I see > > statutory bodies as more regulating "profession" rather than > "industry". > > Industry bodies are normally private sector initiatives formed by > > interested persons to achieve common goals. I can be surprised to hear > > the government being asked to help set up an "industry" association of > > any type. Private sector associations engage the government, so how > > can the same government be involved in their set up? The other > > axiomatic thing about associations is that the ones that do not > > deliver invariably die a natural death - and there are many examples > > of this in Kenya even within ICT. It is not difficult to set up a > > membership association (just like a Church or Club which are set up under > the same "Societies Act"). > > People cannot be stopped from setting up associations because the > > Constitution guarantees freedom of association. This means those who > > have any bright ideas that are not accommodated by existing > > associations cannot have an excuse or choose to take up the role of > > professional hecklers of existing associations. > > > > Within ICT we agreed some years to accommodate multiple associations > > which then converge under KEPSA umbrella to offer a unified voice. > > This I think is working very well as recently exemplified at the Prime > > Minister's Round Table where ICT issues were very well articulated. > > > > With regard to Prof's suggestion to discuss government agencies and > > private sector associations at the same meeting I think that would > > create much confusion and even opportunities for red herrings to be > > thrown around. It is mixing oranges and apples. The word "association" > > is actually a short form. The exact terminology is "membership > > association". An association is made up of members who voluntarily > > come together and run their interests. The members have their own > > channels to discuss their issues. It does not take much imagination to > > realize that someone who is NOT a "member" is unlikely to have > > overflowing goodwill towards (leave alone information about) the > > association. However, associations face a lot of challenges and a > > specific get together of associations to discuss best practices and > > ways of being sustainable and more effective would be welcome. The > > Business Advocacy Fund is for example doing a great and positive job > > in the direction of capacity building and funding. Well done to
> > Another useful type of meeting is the type you refer to that was held > > at KICC a couple of years ago where associations can inform a wider > > audience about their activities and roles and, perhaps, recruit more > members. Overall, an associations' > > meeting should be a focused one and not be mixed up with one for > > government agencies; and guest list should be expanded from Prof's > > limiting suggestion of "the plethora of ICT industry associations
> > are not effective" to include those which are effective so that others > > can learn from them as well. > > > > Waudo > > www.cskonline.org > > > > > > On Mon, 05 Apr 2010 02:38 -0500, [email protected] wrote: > >> Dear listers, > >> Did we not have a similar meeting not too long ago? I think it was > >> about two years or so. Cant remember who had organized it but it was > >> there at KICC. Same theme of taking stock of all ICT bodies. Cant > >> remember if the Government agencies were represented. > >> > >> Not that I have a problem with yet another similar meeting, but we > >> need to clearly set out what we want to achieve with that kind of > >> gathering. Its common knowledge that the ICT industry is awash with > >> all manner of associations/organizations and Government bodies. Isn't > >> it time that we had the sort of organization that we see with other > >> professions like Accountants and Lawyers etc? Isn't it time that
> >> Government created a statutory industry association? This can easily > >> be achieved by such legislation as the policy document presented by > >> the PS the other day, or the Communications Act that was passed not > >> too long ago. > >> > >> Inasmuch as the Government so believes in the increasing importance > >> that ICT plays in the economy, then its imperative that we have an > >> industry body that would take care of all others, say like a CSK
> >> is recognized by an Act of parliament. > >> > >> Regards, > >> Ikua > >> > >> Quoting Mwololo Tim <[email protected]>: > >> > >> > Dear all, > >> > The discussion needs to be on the institutional framework for ICTs > >> > in Kenya, not just on KICTB. It needs to cover KICTB, NCS and > >> > DEG/GITS. It also needs to include the plethora of ICT industry > associations that are not effective. > >> > I can organize such a townhall meeting in Chiromo like the > first one. > >> > However, for such a meeting to be useful, it needs to be
> >> > by some guided discussion on the same. Alternatively, one or two > >> > persons can prepare presenations to guide the discussions, with > >> > these presentations being made available earlier for
> >> > to acquint with them. I am also prepared to be one of those > >> > persons. tim > >> > > >> > On Sun, Apr 4, 2010 at 9:10 PM, Barrack Otieno > >> > <[email protected]>wrote: > >> > > >> >> Daktari, > >> >> > >> >> Thank you for setting the ball rolling, not sure i saw the > >> >> document as well it must have been hijacked. A town hall meeting > >> >> is a welcome idea i second it, Kippra felt sufficiently > >> >> philanthropic before the last town hall meeting i wonder whether > >> >> they can double their offer during this easter season, bwn Magolo > >> >> can we count on you. Walu can set the agenda. > >> >> > >> >> Regards > >> >> > >> >> On Sun, Apr 4, 2010 at 7:28 PM, Solomon Mburu Kamau > >> >> <[email protected]> wrote: > >> >> > On 04/04/2010, [email protected] <[email protected]> wrote: > >> >> >> Barrack, > >> >> >> Several posts have come by on the role of ICT and I think it > >> >> >> will be > >> >> wise > >> >> >> if we sorted this in a town hall meeting similar to one we had > >> >> >> on > >> >> Malili. > >> >> >> Honestly it feels as though some Neanderthal decided to create > >> >> >> these agencies without putting some thought to it. Criticisms > >> >> >> are good only when you point out where there are gaps. > >> >> >> > >> >> >> The other day I posted a policy proposal for comments but only > >> >> >> one > >> >> person > >> >> >> did respond. What it means then is that this forum ni ya > >> >> >> kuchongoana > >> >> tu. > >> >> > > >> >> > Dakitari, with due respect, would you mind resending the
> >> >> > proposals as a new thread so that interested parties may respond? > >> >> > If sent within this thread, I'm afraid they'll be swallowed > >> >> > along the > >> >> way. > >> >> > > >> >> >> Which really is unfortunate. I have four other policy > >> >> >> proposals that I really think should push through then arouse > >> >> >> sufficient interest from > >> >> the > >> >> >> membership here. > >> >> > > >> >> > I also think you should send them so that we react to the contents! > >> >> >> > >> >> >> > >> >> >> Ndemo. > >> >> >> > >> >> >> > >> >> >>> This is truly "Jicho Pevu", i think some answers to this > >> >> >>> questions are very much in order as we celebrate Easter, can > >> >> >>> someone provide us with a list of all agencies involved in > >> >> >>> ICTs and ICT4D so that we can do some tooth comb analysis, i > >> >> >>> saw a post from Paul on what the board has achieved early > >> >> >>> this year, that was very much in order we need something from NCS > as well plus any other agencies. > >> >> >>> > >> >> >>> Regards > >> >> >>> > >> >> >>> On Sat, Apr 3, 2010 at 12:50 PM, Vitalis Olunga > >> >> >>> <[email protected]> > >> >> wrote: > >> >> >>>> There is also another body , National Communications > >> >> >>>> Secretarait. What is the diffrence between NCS and ICT Baord > >> >> >>>> and how do the two bodies > >> >> relate > >> >> >>>> with respect to advisory services to the governement on ICT > matters? > >> >> >>>> > >> >> >>>> Regards > >> >> >>>> > >> >> >>>> > >> >> >>>> Vitalis > >> >> >>>> > >> >> >>>> ________________________________ > >> >> >>>> From: robert yawe <[email protected]> > >> >> >>>> To: [email protected] > >> >> >>>> Cc: KICTAnet ICT Policy Discussions > >> >> >>>> <[email protected]> > >> >> >>>> Sent: Sat, April 3, 2010 12:03:22 PM > >> >> >>>> Subject: Re: [kictanet] Who is ICT Board? Hijacked > >> >> >>>> > >> >> >>>> Hi, > >> >> >>>> I rest my case on this issue, the ICT Board is a monolith, > >> >> >>>> Try reading this... (pdf file), as I feared it is mandated to > >> >> >>>> do anything and everything under the sun that could be called > >> >> >>>> ICT which includes your microwave oven and copier. > >> >> >>>> Functions of Kenya ICT Board > >> >> >>>> The core functions of Kenya ICT Board as documented in
On Wed, 14 Apr 2010 03:00 -0500, [email protected] wrote: their the training as body them. that the that preceded participants policy the
> >> >> >>>> Kenya > >> >> Gazette > >> >> >>>> Legal Notice No 26 of the May 2007: > >> >> >>>> ? To advice the government on all relevant matters > >> >> >>>> pertaining to development, coordination (remember the PM > >> >> >>>> post) and promotion of ICT industries in the country. > >> >> >>>> ? Promote both locally and internationally the opportunities > >> >> >>>> for investments in ICT technology ? Facilitate and manage > >> >> >>>> ICT industrial incubation parks and > >> >> technology > >> >> >>>> parks together with associated facilities on sites, > estates and > land. > >> >> >>>> ? Partner with agents within and without the country to > >> >> >>>> carry out > >> >> such > >> >> >>>> functions as it may consider necessary. > >> >> >>>> ? To transform and empower society through deployment and > >> >> >>>> use of > >> >> ICTs. > >> >> >>>> ? Carry out any other activity to promote and develop ICT > >> >> >>>> products > >> >> and > >> >> >>>> services. > >> >> >>>> Have a restful Easter as we await the limited range 4G, yes > >> >> >>>> you > >> >> guessed > >> >> >>>> it I > >> >> >>>> still have a 3G issue and I am in Nairobi. > >> >> >>>> Regards > >> >> >>>> > >> >> >>>> > >> >> >>>> > >> >> >>>> > >> >> >>>> _______________________________________________ > >> >> >>>> kictanet mailing list > >> >> >>>> [email protected] > >> >> >>>> http://lists.kictanet.or.ke/mailman/listinfo/kictanet > >> >> >>>> > >> >> >>>> This message was sent to: [email protected] > >> >> >>>> Unsubscribe or change your options at > >> >> >>>> > >> >> http://lists.kictanet.or.ke/mailman/options/kictanet/otieno.barrac > >> >> k%40gmail.com > >> >> >>>> > >> >> >>>> > >> >> >>> > >> >> >>> > >> >> >>> > >> >> >>> -- > >> >> >>> Barrack O. 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I tend to support and fully agree with those suggesting having in place a body empowered to provide "strategic leadership and governance of ICT" to the nation. A body that oversees the strategic ICT activities (e.g. strategy formulation and implementation of ICT activities). An ICT governance framework should therefore be developed, and structures follow. Also the required capabilities/competencies developed, for innovation and sustainable development. It is high time to go back on the drawing board, and move away from focusing on a few areas such as, marketting, BPOs, etc, as the main things. We need an "umbrella' body, with resources capable of developing, evaluating, formulating and implementing decisions on ICT development. I tend to disagree with those suggesting the "merging of the many private assocaitions", as this approach "will not work no matter what". Many new associations will keep on emerging with diverse interests, diverse activities or diverse activism, this beeing a dynamic industry. What is required is a body with competencies and capability to give direction, and provide strategic leadership and governance to the ICT sector, and to link these strategic activities to strategies of other sectors in the economy. This "umbrella strategic" body may be ellusive at the moment, but it is necessary to move towards this direction, so that the many fragmented organizations can have some sort of cohesiveness in their national, regional and international activities. The goverment organizations with duplicated and conflicting mandates can be reviewed and streamlined. There are some interesting contributions and suggestions (e.g. Lilian; Matunda) that could be useful as a foundation in formulation of a framework for this kind of "umbrella" organization for this sector. Regards Vitalis On Wed, Apr 14, 2010 at 12:07 PM, Sam Aguyo <[email protected]> wrote: Thanks Charles for your feedback, however if you go back to the previous discussions as well as the title of the subject, members discussed ways and means of merging the varied associations which in my opinion is not feasible. I think this thread came from Charles,
I ment that ...... was the first ....... of the merged factions of
which he made christianity compulsory more like the KANU of the 90s i.e. BABA NA MAMA. .........was more like george okado the founding chairman of computer society...... Regards,
Sam
________________________________ From: waudo siganga <[email protected]>
Cc: KICTAnet ICT Policy Discussions <[email protected]> Sent: Wed, April 14, 2010 11:51:46 AM Subject: Re: [kictanet] RATIONALE OF ICT ASSOCIATIONS MERGER
Charles - I agree with Evans completely. The title of your mail refers to "Associations Merger" while in the substance of the mail you talk of "Federation". In a federation individual associations maintain their identity while in a merger they are swallowed up by one behemothic entity. A federation is practical where, as Charles indicates, over-arching and cross-cutting issues need to be addressed. There is also a practical aspect when engaging government. Otherwise specialist associations keep coming up according to need and technology changes and someone trying to stop or curtail them would be doing a dis-service. Just the other day on this list I was reading of a new association for those interested in software testing. That's OK. It will move the country ahead.
A Federation should be a "thin" entity rather than a full-blown association to avoid competing or duplicating what the sub-associatons are doing. It can even operate with just one member of staff as it is just a "special service vehicle". For it to be widely accepted it is important for it to be developed BOTTOM-UP with the full participation of the underlying associations. A federation that is set up and then imposed can never work.
Just to repeat that in our case of a couple of years ago we agreed to implement federation for INDUSTRY associations through the KEPSA ICT Board and so far that is working very very well.
Kind Regards, Waudo
On Wed, 14 Apr 2010 03:00 -0500, [email protected] wrote:
Charles, That is very true. For instance, all the bodies that fall under KEPSA still maintain their identity. So, having one main ICT federation does not mean that we for instance will cease existing as LPA and pursuing our own agenda. But we have a sumit body through which we can easily get heard.
Its like the surveyors who share one body with Architects and Quantity Surveyors etc. They are chapters within the main body but they still have their own identity.
Ikua
Quoting charles nduati <[email protected]>:
Hi Sam,
The rationale for federations is based on the fact that many issues in sub sub sectors are CROSS CUTTING. e.g. all sectors in all industries across the country have a problem with power, security etc. so its make no sense for government to give audience to 1000 industry representatives to hear the same exact thing. that s why KEPSA was formed to distill the sector issues and give the government ONE PAGE OF PRIORITY ISSUES.
cheers all
Charles Nduati
On Fri, 09 Apr 2010 08:32 EEST Sam Aguyo wrote:
Hello Colleagues,
I wonder wether it would be possible to merge the various associations into one. First we need to ask ourselves why they are formed, who finances them and the mandate of each.
ICT is dynamic - self destructing, the associations may follow the same principle. A more feasible approach is to ensure they deliver on there mandate.
Sam hi Walu,
I ment that constatine was the first pope of the merged factions of which he made christianity compulsory more like the KANU of the 90s i.e. BABA NA MAMA. st. peter was more like george okado the founding chairman of computer society
Thanks shah for keeping the KIF spirit alive.
charles
On Thu, 08 Apr 2010 08:19 EEST Walubengo J wrote:
Charles,
At the risk of starting a religious debate, ...jst wanted to clarify. 1st Pope was never Constantine but St. Peter...in the 1st Century. Constantine came on the scene 300years later.... http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Constantine_I ...
walu.
--- On Thu, 4/8/10, charles nduati <[email protected]> wrote:
From: charles nduati <[email protected]> Subject: Re: [kictanet] ICT ASSOCIATIONS MERGER To: [email protected] Cc: [email protected] Date: Thursday, April 8, 2010, 7:49 AM
Hi listers,
I have truly enjoyed this debate especially having been the first founding executive director of KENYA ICT FEDERATION (KIF) With other industry captains like mike eldon our founder chairman and all chairmen of the then 12 existing ICT associations i.e. 2003. our vision was exactly what this debate is about and we anchored KIF under KEPSA. as Dr. siganga said, there is no need of recreating the wheel. just contact Dr. kevit desai the KIF governor at KEPSA and ask him to adopt all ICT associations and stakeholders in KEPSA through KIF.
believe me folks, if the ROMAN KING CONSTANTINE hadn t merged all christian sects and made himself the first POPE, christianity would not have survived 2000 years and be so successful in its mission
good day all
charles nduati
On Wed, 07 Apr 2010 21:34 EEST Harry Delano wrote:
Al Kags,
That is why this town hall meeting may be important. Actually Harry (Hare), came up with a more brilliant idea that would require us to make this to be more of an evaluation process - that would create a "need" for either overhaul or improvement in structures and processes. This could be enacted by Govt, either through legislation, or an executive decision.
Mr. Kukubo, also had a good suggestion that we cast the net wider, to draw in as many stakeholers as we can. This, I suppose would be be a perfect chance for us, to tick each of these agencies off the list, enumerating their roles, mandate, and how this all should fit in the bigger picture across the national ICT Landscape. I suppose, we need to hold to account those tasked with a mandate..
So I suppose, the question we should be asking ourselves, is where do we first start - The town hall meeting..? And how do we cast this net wider for participation..?
Harry
_____
From: [email protected] [mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf Of Al Kags Sent: Wednesday, April 07, 2010 8:45 PM To: [email protected] Cc: KICTAnet ICT Policy Discussions Subject: Re: [kictanet] Who is ICT Board? Hijacked
Gilda, you are right that all organisations need to meet their obligations effectively. I wonder though whether some of them are not duplicated? especially some that we have seen listed on this thread?
On Wed, Apr 7, 2010 at 4:40 PM, <[email protected]> wrote:
Hi Harry,
I believe the various organisations are all playing their own unique roles. Key thing is for each to meet it's obligations effectively. Tim Waema's proposal on the discussion of various organisations and their mandate is no doubt a good idea to get things cleared and for industry to continue giving their input so that the organisations are well designed.
Best,
Gilda
Quoting Harry Delano <[email protected]>:
> > S. Murigi, > > Hey is it an ipad you typing on....?? Anyways, just on a lighter note... > > So, what could be the best way forward? It seems, we just got a whole myriad > of organizations out here, some of them I'm hearing for the 1st time.. > > Harry > > -----Original Message----- > From: [email protected] > [mailto:kictanet-bounces+harry <mailto:kictanet-bounces%2Bharry> [email protected]] On > Behalf Of S.Murigi Muraya > Sent: Wednesday, April 07, 2010 3:25 PM > To: [email protected] > Cc: KICTAnet ICT Policy Discussions > Subject: Re: [kictanet] Who is ICT Board? Hijacked > > About 2 years ago went to the KICTB offices then at Waiyaki Way. My purpose > then was to find out what they were about. > > Was referred to a visibly irritated fellow who was done with me in less than > 1 minute only telling me to check the KICTB website. > > Have waited to see what they would come up with and am not too disappointed. > For one they organize, co sponsor or market industry events that yuppies can > be involved in without falling asleep. Being sort of experienced in the > professional tech skills development field this can authoritatively say this > is one of the 'enabling situations' we have lacked locally. > > We need skills but companies are not willing to train unethical techies who > jump ship immediately after being sharpened. On the other hand > techies are > unable to effectively educate themselves without corporate or tech community > support eg. www.ihub.co.ke > > Training centers are not too doing well financially & cannot > hire the best > (often more experienced) techies because corporates are not training as much > as they should. By working with industry giants (eg Google, Microsoft, > Oracle) & their partners the KICTB is somehow helping educate techies via > these industry events. > > If anything, the KICTB needs to exist for this purpose -> to help build > capacity in the local tech industry. They are exposing budding software > entreprenuers to Indian outsourcing practices to name another 'situation' > they are enabling. GITS, NCS etc do not do this as far as I know. > > Nimechoka - typing on a mobile. > > SMM > > -----Original Message----- > From: Barrack Otieno <[email protected]> > Sent: Monday, April 05, 2010 16:52 > To: [email protected] > Cc: KICTAnet ICT Policy Discussions <[email protected]> > Subject: Re: [kictanet] Who is ICT Board? Hijacked > > Dr. Siganga, > > Your write up makes sense, i guess we have been mixing too many issues, in > other words we handle government agencies and industry associations > separately, sounds like the meeting is a welcome idea, i suggest government > agencies first. > > Regards > > On Mon, Apr 5, 2010 at 3:03 PM, waudo siganga <[email protected]> > wrote: > > Hi Evans, all - we have discussed the issue of a statutory body to > > regulate ICT professionalism on this list in the past and the > > discussion did not go far. Some said that we would be interfering with > > "innovation". Some mentioned Bill Gates as a guy who has done much but > > does not have any professional qualification. Yet others had other > > stories (e.g. the three blind men story from Brian and his note to > > Walu on 7/7/08: > >> I beg to differ. ICT is too large, too deep and too wide to have a > >> single, authoritative, representative body. What you refer to would > >> probably be more appropriate to some of the professional disciplines > >> within the ICT sector e.g. Software Developers Guild, System > >> Administrators Association, CIO/CTO Society - within which there can > >> be certain codes of behavior, ethics, values, best practices etc... > > > > On 10/9/08 on this list I re-introduced the topic of a statutory body > > such as LSK,ICPAK, ... to guide the ICT profession. In my mail I even > > included a "draft ICT Professionals Act". The idea received cold > > water except from Kamotho. > > > > One distinction between "profession" and "Industry". In my mind I see > > statutory bodies as more regulating "profession" rather than > "industry". > > Industry bodies are normally private sector initiatives formed by > > interested persons to achieve common goals. I can be surprised to hear > > the government being asked to help set up an "industry" association of > > any type. Private sector associations engage the government, so how > > can the same government be involved in their set up? The other > > axiomatic thing about associations is that the ones that do not > > deliver invariably die a natural death - and there are many examples > > of this in Kenya even within ICT. It is not difficult to set up a > > membership association (just like a Church or Club which are set up under > the same "Societies Act"). > > People cannot be stopped from setting up associations because the > > Constitution guarantees freedom of association. This means those who > > have any bright ideas that are not accommodated by existing > > associations cannot have an excuse or choose to take up the role of > > professional hecklers of existing associations. > > > > Within ICT we agreed some years to accommodate multiple associations > > which then converge under KEPSA umbrella to offer a unified voice. > > This I think is working very well as recently exemplified at the Prime > > Minister's Round Table where ICT issues were very well articulated. > > > > With regard to Prof's suggestion to discuss government agencies and > > private sector associations at the same meeting I think that would > > create much confusion and even opportunities for red herrings to be > > thrown around. It is mixing oranges and apples. The word "association" > > is actually a short form. The exact terminology is "membership > > association". An association is made up of members who voluntarily > > come together and run their interests. The members have their own > > channels to discuss their issues. It does not take much imagination to > > realize that someone who is NOT a "member" is unlikely to have > > overflowing goodwill towards (leave alone information about) the > > association. However, associations face a lot of challenges and a > > specific get together of associations to discuss best practices and > > ways of being sustainable and more effective would be welcome. The > > Business Advocacy Fund is for example doing a great and positive job > > in the direction of capacity building and funding. Well done to them. > > Another useful type of meeting is the type you refer to that was held > > at KICC a couple of years ago where associations can inform a wider > > audience about their activities and roles and, perhaps, recruit more > members. Overall, an associations' > > meeting should be a focused one and not be mixed up with one for > > government agencies; and guest list should be expanded from Prof's > > limiting suggestion of "the plethora of ICT industry associations that > > are not effective" to include those which are effective so that others > > can learn from them as well. > > > > Waudo > > www.cskonline.org > > > > > > On Mon, 05 Apr 2010 02:38 -0500, [email protected] wrote: > >> Dear listers, > >> Did we not have a similar meeting not too long ago? I think it was > >> about two years or so. Cant remember who had organized it but it was > >> there at KICC. Same theme of taking stock of all ICT bodies. Cant > >> remember if the Government agencies were represented. > >> > >> Not that I have a problem with yet another similar meeting, but we > >> need to clearly set out what we want to achieve with that kind of > >> gathering. Its common knowledge that the ICT industry is awash with > >> all manner of associations/organizations and Government bodies. Isn't > >> it time that we had the sort of organization that we see with other > >> professions like Accountants and Lawyers etc? Isn't it time that the > >> Government created a statutory industry association? This can easily > >> be achieved by such legislation as the policy document presented by > >> the PS the other day, or the Communications Act that was passed not > >> too long ago. > >> > >> Inasmuch as the Government so believes in the increasing importance > >> that ICT plays in the economy, then its imperative that we have an > >> industry body that would take care of all others, say like a CSK that > >> is recognized by an Act of parliament. > >> > >> Regards, > >> Ikua > >> > >> Quoting Mwololo Tim <[email protected]>: > >> > >> > Dear all, > >> > The discussion needs to be on the institutional framework for ICTs > >> > in Kenya, not just on KICTB. It needs to cover KICTB, NCS and > >> > DEG/GITS. It also needs to include the plethora of ICT industry > associations that are not effective. > >> > I can organize such a townhall meeting in Chiromo like the > first one. > >> > However, for such a meeting to be useful, it needs to be preceded > >> > by some guided discussion on the same. Alternatively, one or two > >> > persons can prepare presenations to guide the discussions, with > >> > these presentations being made available earlier for participants > >> > to acquint with them. I am also prepared to be one of those > >> > persons. tim > >> > > >> > On Sun, Apr 4, 2010 at 9:10 PM, Barrack Otieno > >> > <[email protected]>wrote: > >> > > >> >> Daktari, > >> >> > >> >> Thank you for setting the ball rolling, not sure i saw the > >> >> document as well it must have been hijacked. A town hall meeting > >> >> is a welcome idea i second it, Kippra felt sufficiently > >> >> philanthropic before the last town hall meeting i wonder whether > >> >> they can double their offer during this easter season, bwn Magolo > >> >> can we count on you. Walu can set the agenda. > >> >> > >> >> Regards > >> >> > >> >> On Sun, Apr 4, 2010 at 7:28 PM, Solomon Mburu Kamau > >> >> <[email protected]> wrote: > >> >> > On 04/04/2010, [email protected] <[email protected]> wrote: > >> >> >> Barrack, > >> >> >> Several posts have come by on the role of ICT and I think it > >> >> >> will be > >> >> wise > >> >> >> if we sorted this in a town hall meeting similar to one we had > >> >> >> on > >> >> Malili. > >> >> >> Honestly it feels as though some Neanderthal decided to create > >> >> >> these agencies without putting some thought to it. Criticisms > >> >> >> are good only when you point out where there are gaps. > >> >> >> > >> >> >> The other day I posted a policy proposal for comments but only > >> >> >> one > >> >> person > >> >> >> did respond. What it means then is that this forum ni ya > >> >> >> kuchongoana > >> >> tu. > >> >> > > >> >> > Dakitari, with due respect, would you mind resending the policy > >> >> > proposals as a new thread so that interested parties may respond? > >> >> > If sent within this thread, I'm afraid they'll be swallowed > >> >> > along the > >> >> way. > >> >> > > >> >> >> Which really is unfortunate. I have four other policy > >> >> >> proposals that I really think should push through then arouse > >> >> >> sufficient interest from > >> >> the > >> >> >> membership here. > >> >> > > >> >> > I also think you should send them so that we react to the contents! > >> >> >> > >> >> >> > >> >> >> Ndemo. > >> >> >> > >> >> >> > >> >> >>> This is truly "Jicho Pevu", i think some answers to this > >> >> >>> questions are very much in order as we celebrate Easter, can > >> >> >>> someone provide us with a list of all agencies involved in > >> >> >>> ICTs and ICT4D so that we can do some tooth comb analysis, i > >> >> >>> saw a post from Paul on what the board has achieved early > >> >> >>> this year, that was very much in order we need something from NCS > as well plus any other agencies. > >> >> >>> > >> >> >>> Regards > >> >> >>> > >> >> >>> On Sat, Apr 3, 2010 at 12:50 PM, Vitalis Olunga > >> >> >>> <[email protected]> > >> >> wrote: > >> >> >>>> There is also another body , National Communications > >> >> >>>> Secretarait. What is the diffrence between NCS and ICT Baord > >> >> >>>> and how do the two bodies > >> >> relate > >> >> >>>> with respect to advisory services to the governement on ICT > matters? > >> >> >>>> > >> >> >>>> Regards > >> >> >>>> > >> >> >>>> > >> >> >>>> Vitalis > >> >> >>>> > >> >> >>>> ________________________________ > >> >> >>>> From: robert yawe <[email protected]> > >> >> >>>> To: [email protected] > >> >> >>>> Cc: KICTAnet ICT Policy Discussions > >> >> >>>> <[email protected]> > >> >> >>>> Sent: Sat, April 3, 2010 12:03:22 PM > >> >> >>>> Subject: Re: [kictanet] Who is ICT Board? Hijacked > >> >> >>>> > >> >> >>>> Hi, > >> >> >>>> I rest my case on this issue, the ICT Board is a monolith, > >> >> >>>> Try reading this... (pdf file), as I feared it is mandated to > >> >> >>>> do anything and everything under the sun that could be called > >> >> >>>> ICT which includes your microwave oven and copier. > >> >> >>>> Functions of Kenya ICT Board > >> >> >>>> The core functions of Kenya ICT Board as documented in the > >> >> >>>> Kenya > >> >> Gazette > >> >> >>>> Legal Notice No 26 of the May 2007: > >> >> >>>> ? To advice the government on all relevant matters > >> >> >>>> pertaining to development, coordination (remember the PM > >> >> >>>> post) and promotion of ICT industries in the country. > >> >> >>>> ? Promote both locally and internationally the opportunities > >> >> >>>> for investments in ICT technology ? Facilitate and manage > >> >> >>>> ICT industrial incubation parks and > >> >> technology > >> >> >>>> parks together with associated facilities on sites, > estates and > land. > >> >> >>>> ? Partner with agents within and without the country to > >> >> >>>> carry out > >> >> such > >> >> >>>> functions as it may consider necessary. > >> >> >>>> ? To transform and empower society through deployment and > >> >> >>>> use of > >> >> ICTs. > >> >> >>>> ? Carry out any other activity to promote and develop ICT > >> >> >>>> products > >> >> and > >> >> >>>> services. > >> >> >>>> Have a restful Easter as we await the limited range 4G, yes > >> >> >>>> you > >> >> guessed > >> >> >>>> it I > >> >> >>>> still have a 3G issue and I am in Nairobi. > >> >> >>>> Regards > >> >> >>>> > >> >> >>>> > >> >> >>>> > >> >> >>>> > >> >> >>>> _______________________________________________ > >> >> >>>> kictanet mailing list > >> >> >>>> [email protected] > >> >> >>>> http://lists.kictanet.or.ke/mailman/listinfo/kictanet > >> >> >>>> > >> >> >>>> This message was sent to: [email protected] > >> >> >>>> Unsubscribe or change your options at > >> >> >>>> > >> >> http://lists.kictanet.or.ke/mailman/options/kictanet/otieno.barrac > >> >> k%40gmail.com > >> >> >>>> > >> >> >>>> > >> >> >>> > >> >> >>> > >> >> >>> > >> >> >>> -- > >> >> >>> Barrack O. 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Listers, The call by Listers towards the direction of an umbrella body is right and reasonable. As noted by Vitalis the drive towards this aspiration bound to be elusive but its worth the indulgence. During one of my contributions last week, I adverted to an observable trend among Kenyan ICT folk - "a peculiar propensity to form splinter Associations". Its therefore no coincidence that another Association is now in the offing as evidenced by the invitation in circulation. This also goes to confirm that I possess some "unique" ability to foretell for the ICT sector. In other words, the foregoing circumstances are sufficient to qualify me as a competent and reliable prophet. And if that holds, I will proceed to make some further "prophecies" in view of the subject in discussion: 1. Every honest member of the ICT fraternity concedes the fact that the existing outlook of our profession is not admirable. The industry appears to move faster than the profession yet the profession is supposed to drive and guide the industry. 2. There is no common reference point for the industry. Any lay person seeking help from the Kenyan ICT world would be lost in the forest of Associations that purport to represent "cross sections of ICT interests". As things stand today none of the Associations is publicly perceived to have any compelling credibility. As a fact, if any person or the government decided to give audience to all of them then it would simply be forced to attend to nothing else. 3. A respectable umbrella body for the ICT profession is due now more than ever. As far as I am aware, ICT is the only profession that seems cormfortable to be housed by KEPSA. If other professions like accountancy, lawyers, medics, matatu crew etc have formidable institutional arrangements why not a noble profession like ICT? 4. For the dream of a united ICT roadmap to be realized, there must be sacrifices. Vested interests will be put into jeopardy. Those of us with controlling interests within existing Associations will feel the threat. Its no secret that these Associations are exclusive clubs.. But through consultative crafting, all the interests can be safeguarded within an improved outfit. Truly it would be better to be an ordinary member of the lions kingdom than to be a king among the rats. 5. Though ICT has multiple components they are part of a single system, they are dependent and interrelated. Therefore the justification for us to keep disecting the various ICT sub-domains into Associations can easily be ridiculed. 6. Since the current state of a weak institutional set up flies in the face of multiple associations, ALL the existing associations have very little to show or to justify their existence. They are visibly moribund. They will be better off if they voluntarily dissolve and proceed to chart the course for a praiseworthy vehicle which all eligible members will not hesitate to identify with. It is highly in order at this time that the convener of the town hall meeting begins to solicit for an amicable date for the same. Kamotho Njenga On 4/14/10, Vitalis Olunga <[email protected]> wrote:
I tend to support and fully agree with those suggesting having in place a body empowered to provide "strategic leadership and governance of ICT" to the nation. A body that oversees the strategic ICT activities (e.g. strategy formulation and implementation of ICT activities). An ICT governance framework should therefore be developed, and structures follow. Also the required capabilities/competencies developed, for innovation and sustainable development. It is high time to go back on the drawing board, and move away from focusing on a few areas such as, marketting, BPOs, etc, as the main things. We need an "umbrella' body, with resources capable of developing, evaluating, formulating and implementing decisions on ICT development.
I tend to disagree with those suggesting the "merging of the many private assocaitions", as this approach "will not work no matter what". Many new associations will keep on emerging with diverse interests, diverse activities or diverse activism, this beeing a dynamic industry. What is required is a body with competencies and capability to give direction, and provide strategic leadership and governance to the ICT sector, and to link these strategic activities to strategies of other sectors in the economy. This "umbrella strategic" body may be ellusive at the moment, but it is necessary to move towards this direction, so that the many fragmented organizations can have some sort of cohesiveness in their national, regional and international activities. The goverment organizations with duplicated and conflicting mandates can be reviewed and streamlined. There are some interesting contributions and suggestions (e.g. Lilian; Matunda) that could be useful as a foundation in formulation of a framework for this kind of "umbrella" organization for this sector.
Regards
Vitalis
On Wed, Apr 14, 2010 at 12:07 PM, Sam Aguyo <[email protected]> wrote:
Thanks Charles for your feedback, however if you go back to the previous discussions as well as the title of the subject, members discussed ways and means of merging the varied associations which in my opinion is not feasible. I think this thread came from Charles,
I ment that ...... was the first ....... of the *merged factions* of
which he made christianity compulsory more like the KANU of the
90s i.e. BABA NA MAMA. .........was more like george okado the founding chairman of computer society......
Regards,
Sam
------------------------------ *From:* waudo siganga <[email protected]> *To:* [email protected]
*Cc:* KICTAnet ICT Policy Discussions <[email protected]>
*Sent:* Wed, April 14, 2010 11:51:46 AM *Subject:* Re: [kictanet] RATIONALE OF ICT ASSOCIATIONS MERGER
Charles - I agree with Evans completely. The title of your mail refers to "Associations Merger" while in the substance of the mail you talk of "Federation". In a federation individual associations maintain their identity while in a merger they are swallowed up by one behemothic entity. A federation is practical where, as Charles indicates, over-arching and cross-cutting issues need to be addressed. There is also a practical aspect when engaging government. Otherwise specialist associations keep coming up according to need and technology changes and someone trying to stop or curtail them would be doing a dis-service. Just the other day on this list I was reading of a new association for those interested in software testing. That's OK. It will move the country ahead.
A Federation should be a "thin" entity rather than a full-blown association to avoid competing or duplicating what the sub-associatons are doing. It can even operate with just one member of staff as it is just a "special service vehicle". For it to be widely accepted it is important for it to be developed BOTTOM-UP with the full participation of the underlying associations. A federation that is set up and then imposed can never work.
Just to repeat that in our case of a couple of years ago we agreed to implement federation for INDUSTRY associations through the KEPSA ICT Board and so far that is working very very well.
Kind Regards, Waudo
Charles, That is very true. For instance, all the bodies that fall under KEPSA still maintain their identity. So, having one main ICT federation does not mean that we for instance will cease existing as LPA and pursuing our own agenda. But we have a sumit body through which we can easily get heard.
Its like the surveyors who share one body with Architects and Quantity Surveyors etc. They are chapters within the main body but they still have their own identity.
Ikua
Quoting charles nduati <[email protected]>:
Hi Sam,
The rationale for federations is based on the fact that many issues in sub sub sectors are CROSS CUTTING. e.g. all sectors in all industries across the country have a problem with power, security etc. so its make no sense for government to give audience to 1000 industry representatives to hear the same exact thing. that s why KEPSA was formed to distill the sector issues and give the government ONE PAGE OF PRIORITY ISSUES.
cheers all
Charles Nduati
On Fri, 09 Apr 2010 08:32 EEST Sam Aguyo wrote:
Hello Colleagues,
I wonder wether it would be possible to merge the various associations into one. First we need to ask ourselves why they are formed, who finances them and the mandate of each.
ICT is dynamic - self destructing, the associations may follow the same principle. A more feasible approach is to ensure they deliver on there mandate.
Sam
hi Walu,
I ment that constatine was the first pope of the merged factions of which he made christianity compulsory more like the KANU of the 90s i.e. BABA NA MAMA. st. peter was more like george okado the founding chairman of computer society
Thanks shah for keeping the KIF spirit alive.
charles
On Thu, 08 Apr 2010 08:19 EEST Walubengo J wrote:
Charles,
At the risk of starting a religious debate, ...jst wanted to clarify. 1st Pope was never Constantine but St. Peter...in the 1st Century. Constantine came on the scene 300years later.... http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Constantine_I ...
walu.
--- On Thu, 4/8/10, charles nduati <[email protected]> wrote:
From: charles nduati <[email protected]> Subject: Re: [kictanet] ICT ASSOCIATIONS MERGER To: [email protected] Cc: [email protected] Date: Thursday, April 8, 2010, 7:49 AM
Hi listers,
I have truly enjoyed this debate especially having been the first founding executive director of KENYA ICT FEDERATION (KIF) With other industry captains like mike eldon our founder chairman and all chairmen of the then 12 existing ICT associations i.e. 2003. our vision was exactly what this debate is about and we anchored KIF under KEPSA. as Dr. siganga said, there is no need of recreating the wheel. just contact Dr. kevit desai the KIF governor at KEPSA and ask him to adopt all ICT associations and stakeholders in KEPSA through KIF.
believe me folks, if the ROMAN KING CONSTANTINE hadn t merged all christian sects and made himself the first POPE, christianity would not have survived 2000 years and be so successful in its mission
good day all
charles nduati
On Wed, 07 Apr 2010 21:34 EEST Harry Delano wrote:
> Al Kags, > > That is why this town hall meeting may be important. Actually > Harry (Hare), > came up with a more brilliant > idea that would require us to make this to be more of an > evaluation process > - that would create a "need" for > either overhaul or improvement in structures and processes. This could be > enacted by Govt, either through > legislation, or an executive decision. > > Mr. Kukubo, also had a good suggestion that we cast the net wider, to draw > in as many stakeholers as > we can. This, I suppose would be be a perfect chance for us, to > tick each of > these agencies off the list, > enumerating their roles, mandate, and how this all should fit in > the bigger > picture across the national ICT > Landscape. I suppose, we need to hold to account those tasked with a > mandate.. > > So I suppose, the question we should be asking ourselves, is where do we > first start - The town hall meeting..? > And how do we cast this net wider for participation..? > > Harry > > _____ > > From: [email protected] > [mailto:kictanet-bounces+harry <kictanet-bounces%2Bharry>= [email protected]] On > Behalf Of Al Kags > Sent: Wednesday, April 07, 2010 8:45 PM > To: [email protected] > Cc: KICTAnet ICT Policy Discussions > Subject: Re: [kictanet] Who is ICT Board? Hijacked > > > Gilda, you are right that all organisations need to meet their obligations > effectively. I wonder though whether some of them are not duplicated? > especially some that we have seen listed on this thread? > > > On Wed, Apr 7, 2010 at 4:40 PM, <[email protected]> wrote: > > > > Hi Harry, > > I believe the various organisations are all playing their own > unique roles. > Key thing is for each to meet it's obligations effectively. > Tim Waema's proposal on the discussion of various organisations and
> mandate is no doubt a good idea to get things cleared and for industry to > continue giving their input so that the organisations are well designed. > > Best, > > Gilda > > > Quoting Harry Delano <[email protected]>: > >> >> S. Murigi, >> >> Hey is it an ipad you typing on....?? Anyways, just on a lighter note... >> >> So, what could be the best way forward? It seems, we just got a whole > myriad >> of organizations out here, some of them I'm hearing for the 1st time.. >> >> Harry >> >> -----Original Message----- >> From: [email protected] >> [mailto:kictanet-bounces+harry <kictanet-bounces%2Bharry><mailto: kictanet-bounces%2Bharry <kictanet-bounces%252Bharry>> > [email protected]] On >> Behalf Of S.Murigi Muraya >> Sent: Wednesday, April 07, 2010 3:25 PM >> To: [email protected] >> Cc: KICTAnet ICT Policy Discussions >> Subject: Re: [kictanet] Who is ICT Board? Hijacked >> >> About 2 years ago went to the KICTB offices then at Waiyaki Way. My > purpose >> then was to find out what they were about. >> >> Was referred to a visibly irritated fellow who was done with me in less > than >> 1 minute only telling me to check the KICTB website. >> >> Have waited to see what they would come up with and am not too > disappointed. >> For one they organize, co sponsor or market industry events that yuppies > can >> be involved in without falling asleep. Being sort of experienced in the >> professional tech skills development field this can authoritatively say > this >> is one of the 'enabling situations' we have lacked locally. >> >> We need skills but companies are not willing to train unethical techies > who >> jump ship immediately after being sharpened. On the other hand >> techies are >> unable to effectively educate themselves without corporate or tech > community >> support eg. www.ihub.co.ke >> >> Training centers are not too doing well financially & cannot >> hire the best >> (often more experienced) techies because corporates are not
> much >> as they should. By working with industry giants (eg Google, Microsoft, >> Oracle) & their partners the KICTB is somehow helping educate techies via >> these industry events. >> >> If anything, the KICTB needs to exist for this purpose -> to help build >> capacity in the local tech industry. They are exposing budding software >> entreprenuers to Indian outsourcing practices to name another 'situation' >> they are enabling. GITS, NCS etc do not do this as far as I know. >> >> Nimechoka - typing on a mobile. >> >> SMM >> >> -----Original Message----- >> From: Barrack Otieno <[email protected]> >> Sent: Monday, April 05, 2010 16:52 >> To: [email protected] >> Cc: KICTAnet ICT Policy Discussions < [email protected]> >> Subject: Re: [kictanet] Who is ICT Board? Hijacked >> >> Dr. Siganga, >> >> Your write up makes sense, i guess we have been mixing too many issues, > in >> other words we handle government agencies and industry associations >> separately, sounds like the meeting is a welcome idea, i suggest > government >> agencies first. >> >> Regards >> >> On Mon, Apr 5, 2010 at 3:03 PM, waudo siganga < [email protected]> >> wrote: >> > Hi Evans, all - we have discussed the issue of a statutory body to >> > regulate ICT professionalism on this list in the past and the >> > discussion did not go far. Some said that we would be interfering with >> > "innovation". Some mentioned Bill Gates as a guy who has done much but >> > does not have any professional qualification. Yet others had other >> > stories (e.g. the three blind men story from Brian and his note to >> > Walu on 7/7/08: >> >> I beg to differ. ICT is too large, too deep and too wide to have a >> >> single, authoritative, representative body. What you refer to would >> >> probably be more appropriate to some of the professional disciplines >> >> within the ICT sector e.g. Software Developers Guild, System >> >> Administrators Association, CIO/CTO Society - within which
>> >> be certain codes of behavior, ethics, values, best practices etc... >> > >> > On 10/9/08 on this list I re-introduced the topic of a statutory
On Wed, 14 Apr 2010 03:00 -0500, [email protected] wrote: their training as there can body
>> > such as LSK,ICPAK, ... to guide the ICT profession. In my mail I even >> > included a "draft ICT Professionals Act". The idea received
cold > >>>>> > water except from Kamotho. > >>>>> > > >>>>> > One distinction between "profession" and "Industry". In my mind I see > >>>>> > statutory bodies as more regulating "profession" rather than > >>>>> "industry". > >>>>> > Industry bodies are normally private sector initiatives formed by > >>>>> > interested persons to achieve common goals. I can be surprised to hear > >>>>> > the government being asked to help set up an "industry" association of > >>>>> > any type. Private sector associations engage the government, so how > >>>>> > can the same government be involved in their set up? The other > >>>>> > axiomatic thing about associations is that the ones that do not > >>>>> > deliver invariably die a natural death - and there are many examples > >>>>> > of this in Kenya even within ICT. It is not difficult to set up a > >>>>> > membership association (just like a Church or Club which are set up > >>>> under > >>>>> the same "Societies Act"). > >>>>> > People cannot be stopped from setting up associations because the > >>>>> > Constitution guarantees freedom of association. This means those who > >>>>> > have any bright ideas that are not accommodated by existing > >>>>> > associations cannot have an excuse or choose to take up the role of > >>>>> > professional hecklers of existing associations. > >>>>> > > >>>>> > Within ICT we agreed some years to accommodate multiple associations > >>>>> > which then converge under KEPSA umbrella to offer a unified voice. > >>>>> > This I think is working very well as recently exemplified at the Prime > >>>>> > Minister's Round Table where ICT issues were very well articulated. > >>>>> > > >>>>> > With regard to Prof's suggestion to discuss government agencies and > >>>>> > private sector associations at the same meeting I think that would > >>>>> > create much confusion and even opportunities for red herrings to be > >>>>> > thrown around. It is mixing oranges and apples. The word "association" > >>>>> > is actually a short form. The exact terminology is "membership > >>>>> > association". An association is made up of members who voluntarily > >>>>> > come together and run their interests. The members have their own > >>>>> > channels to discuss their issues. It does not take much imagination to > >>>>> > realize that someone who is NOT a "member" is unlikely to have > >>>>> > overflowing goodwill towards (leave alone information about) the > >>>>> > association. However, associations face a lot of challenges and a > >>>>> > specific get together of associations to discuss best practices and > >>>>> > ways of being sustainable and more effective would be welcome. The > >>>>> > Business Advocacy Fund is for example doing a great and positive job > >>>>> > in the direction of capacity building and funding. Well done to them. > >>>>> > Another useful type of meeting is the type you refer to that was held > >>>>> > at KICC a couple of years ago where associations can inform a wider > >>>>> > audience about their activities and roles and, perhaps, recruit more > >>>>> members. Overall, an associations' > >>>>> > meeting should be a focused one and not be mixed up with one for > >>>>> > government agencies; and guest list should be expanded from Prof's > >>>>> > limiting suggestion of "the plethora of ICT industry associations that > >>>>> > are not effective" to include those which are effective so that others > >>>>> > can learn from them as well. > >>>>> > > >>>>> > Waudo > >>>>> > www.cskonline.org > >>>>> > > >>>>> > > >>>>> > On Mon, 05 Apr 2010 02:38 -0500, [email protected] wrote: > >>>>> >> Dear listers, > >>>>> >> Did we not have a similar meeting not too long ago? I think it was > >>>>> >> about two years or so. Cant remember who had organized it but it was > >>>>> >> there at KICC. Same theme of taking stock of all ICT bodies. Cant > >>>>> >> remember if the Government agencies were represented. > >>>>> >> > >>>>> >> Not that I have a problem with yet another similar meeting, but we > >>>>> >> need to clearly set out what we want to achieve with that kind of > >>>>> >> gathering. Its common knowledge that the ICT industry is awash with > >>>>> >> all manner of associations/organizations and Government bodies. Isn't > >>>>> >> it time that we had the sort of organization that we see with other > >>>>> >> professions like Accountants and Lawyers etc? Isn't it time that the > >>>>> >> Government created a statutory industry association? This can easily > >>>>> >> be achieved by such legislation as the policy document presented by > >>>>> >> the PS the other day, or the Communications Act that was passed not > >>>>> >> too long ago. > >>>>> >> > >>>>> >> Inasmuch as the Government so believes in the increasing importance > >>>>> >> that ICT plays in the economy, then its imperative that we have an > >>>>> >> industry body that would take care of all others, say like a CSK that > >>>>> >> is recognized by an Act of parliament. > >>>>> >> > >>>>> >> Regards, > >>>>> >> Ikua > >>>>> >> > >>>>> >> Quoting Mwololo Tim <[email protected]>: > >>>>> >> > >>>>> >> > Dear all, > >>>>> >> > The discussion needs to be on the institutional framework for ICTs > >>>>> >> > in Kenya, not just on KICTB. It needs to cover KICTB, NCS and > >>>>> >> > DEG/GITS. It also needs to include the plethora of ICT industry > >>>>> associations that are not effective. > >>>>> >> > I can organize such a townhall meeting in Chiromo like the > >>>>> first one. > >>>>> >> > However, for such a meeting to be useful, it needs to be preceded > >>>>> >> > by some guided discussion on the same. Alternatively, one or two > >>>>> >> > persons can prepare presenations to guide the discussions, with > >>>>> >> > these presentations being made available earlier for participants > >>>>> >> > to acquint with them. I am also prepared to be one of those > >>>>> >> > persons. tim > >>>>> >> > > >>>>> >> > On Sun, Apr 4, 2010 at 9:10 PM, Barrack Otieno > >>>>> >> > <[email protected]>wrote: > >>>>> >> > > >>>>> >> >> Daktari, > >>>>> >> >> > >>>>> >> >> Thank you for setting the ball rolling, not sure i saw the > >>>>> >> >> document as well it must have been hijacked. A town hall meeting > >>>>> >> >> is a welcome idea i second it, Kippra felt sufficiently > >>>>> >> >> philanthropic before the last town hall meeting i wonder whether > >>>>> >> >> they can double their offer during this easter season, bwn Magolo > >>>>> >> >> can we count on you. Walu can set the agenda. > >>>>> >> >> > >>>>> >> >> Regards > >>>>> >> >> > >>>>> >> >> On Sun, Apr 4, 2010 at 7:28 PM, Solomon Mburu Kamau > >>>>> >> >> <[email protected]> wrote: > >>>>> >> >> > On 04/04/2010, [email protected] <[email protected]> wrote: > >>>>> >> >> >> Barrack, > >>>>> >> >> >> Several posts have come by on the role of ICT and I think it > >>>>> >> >> >> will be > >>>>> >> >> wise > >>>>> >> >> >> if we sorted this in a town hall meeting similar to one we had > >>>>> >> >> >> on > >>>>> >> >> Malili. > >>>>> >> >> >> Honestly it feels as though some Neanderthal decided to create > >>>>> >> >> >> these agencies without putting some thought to it. Criticisms > >>>>> >> >> >> are good only when you point out where there are gaps. > >>>>> >> >> >> > >>>>> >> >> >> The other day I posted a policy proposal for comments but only > >>>>> >> >> >> one > >>>>> >> >> person > >>>>> >> >> >> did respond. What it means then is that this forum ni ya > >>>>> >> >> >> kuchongoana > >>>>> >> >> tu. > >>>>> >> >> > > >>>>> >> >> > Dakitari, with due respect, would you mind resending the policy > >>>>> >> >> > proposals as a new thread so that interested parties may respond? > >>>>> >> >> > If sent within this thread, I'm afraid they'll be swallowed > >>>>> >> >> > along the > >>>>> >> >> way. > >>>>> >> >> > > >>>>> >> >> >> Which really is unfortunate. I have four other policy > >>>>> >> >> >> proposals that I really think should push through then arouse > >>>>> >> >> >> sufficient interest from > >>>>> >> >> the > >>>>> >> >> >> membership here. > >>>>> >> >> > > >>>>> >> >> > I also think you should send them so that we react to the > >>>> contents! > >>>>> >> >> >> > >>>>> >> >> >> > >>>>> >> >> >> Ndemo. > >>>>> >> >> >> > >>>>> >> >> >> > >>>>> >> >> >>> This is truly "Jicho Pevu", i think some answers to this > >>>>> >> >> >>> questions are very much in order as we celebrate Easter, can > >>>>> >> >> >>> someone provide us with a list of all agencies involved in > >>>>> >> >> >>> ICTs and ICT4D so that we can do some tooth comb analysis, i > >>>>> >> >> >>> saw a post from Paul on what the board has achieved early > >>>>> >> >> >>> this year, that was very much in order we need something from > >>>> NCS > >>>>> as well plus any other agencies. > >>>>> >> >> >>> > >>>>> >> >> >>> Regards > >>>>> >> >> >>> > >>>>> >> >> >>> On Sat, Apr 3, 2010 at 12:50 PM, Vitalis Olunga > >>>>> >> >> >>> <[email protected]> > >>>>> >> >> wrote: > >>>>> >> >> >>>> There is also another body , National Communications > >>>>> >> >> >>>> Secretarait. What is the diffrence between NCS and ICT Baord > >>>>> >> >> >>>> and how do the two bodies > >>>>> >> >> relate > >>>>> >> >> >>>> with respect to advisory services to the governement on ICT > >>>>> matters? > >>>>> >> >> >>>> > >>>>> >> >> >>>> Regards > >>>>> >> >> >>>> > >>>>> >> >> >>>> > >>>>> >> >> >>>> Vitalis > >>>>> >> >> >>>> > >>>>> >> >> >>>> ________________________________ > >>>>> >> >> >>>> From: robert yawe <[email protected]> > >>>>> >> >> >>>> To: [email protected] > >>>>> >> >> >>>> Cc: KICTAnet ICT Policy Discussions > >>>>> >> >> >>>> <[email protected]> > >>>>> >> >> >>>> Sent: Sat, April 3, 2010 12:03:22 PM > >>>>> >> >> >>>> Subject: Re: [kictanet] Who is ICT Board? Hijacked > >>>>> >> >> >>>> > >>>>> >> >> >>>> Hi, > >>>>> >> >> >>>> I rest my case on this issue, the ICT Board is a monolith, > >>>>> >> >> >>>> Try reading this... (pdf file), as I feared it is mandated to > >>>>> >> >> >>>> do anything and everything under the sun that could be called > >>>>> >> >> >>>> ICT which includes your microwave oven and copier. > >>>>> >> >> >>>> Functions of Kenya ICT Board > >>>>> >> >> >>>> The core functions of Kenya ICT Board as documented in the > >>>>> >> >> >>>> Kenya > >>>>> >> >> Gazette > >>>>> >> >> >>>> Legal Notice No 26 of the May 2007: > >>>>> >> >> >>>> ? To advice the government on all relevant matters > >>>>> >> >> >>>> pertaining to development, coordination (remember the PM > >>>>> >> >> >>>> post) and promotion of ICT industries in the country. > >>>>> >> >> >>>> ? Promote both locally and internationally the opportunities > >>>>> >> >> >>>> for investments in ICT technology ? Facilitate and manage > >>>>> >> >> >>>> ICT industrial incubation parks and > >>>>> >> >> technology > >>>>> >> >> >>>> parks together with associated facilities on sites, > >>>>> estates and > >>>>> land. > >>>>> >> >> >>>> ? Partner with agents within and without the country to > >>>>> >> >> >>>> carry out > >>>>> >> >> such > >>>>> >> >> >>>> functions as it may consider necessary. > >>>>> >> >> >>>> ? To transform and empower society through deployment and > >>>>> >> >> >>>> use of > >>>>> >> >> ICTs. > >>>>> >> >> >>>> ? Carry out any other activity to promote and develop ICT > >>>>> >> >> >>>> products > >>>>> >> >> and > >>>>> >> >> >>>> services. > >>>>> >> >> >>>> Have a restful Easter as we await the limited range 4G, yes > >>>>> >> >> >>>> you > >>>>> >> >> guessed > >>>>> >> >> >>>> it I > >>>>> >> >> >>>> still have a 3G issue and I am in Nairobi. > >>>>> >> >> >>>> Regards > >>>>> >> >> >>>> > >>>>> >> >> >>>> > >>>>> >> >> >>>> > >>>>> >> >> >>>> > >>>>> >> >> >>>> _______________________________________________ > >>>>> >> >> >>>> kictanet mailing list > >>>>> >> >> >>>> [email protected] > >>>>> >> >> >>>> http://lists.kictanet.or.ke/mailman/listinfo/kictanet > >>>>> >> >> >>>> > >>>>> >> >> >>>> This message was sent to: [email protected] > >>>>> >> >> >>>> Unsubscribe or change your options at > >>>>> >> >> >>>> > >>>>> >> >> http://lists.kictanet.or.ke/mailman/options/kictanet/otieno.barrac > >>>>> >> >> k%40gmail.com > >>>>> >> >> >>>> > >>>>> >> >> >>>> > >>>>> >> >> >>> > >>>>> >> >> >>> > >>>>> >> >> >>> > >>>>> >> >> >>> -- > >>>>> >> >> >>> Barrack O. Otieno > >>>>> >> >> >>> Geneva > >>>>> >> >> >>> Skype: barrack.otieno > >>>>> >> >> >>> > >>>>> >> >> >>> _______________________________________________ > >>>>> >> >> >>> kictanet mailing list > >>>>> >> >> >>> [email protected] > >>>>> >> >> >>> http://lists.kictanet.or.ke/mailman/listinfo/kictanet > >>>>> >> >> >>> > >>>>> >> >> >>> This message was sent to: [email protected] or > >>>>> >> >> >>> change your options at > >>>>> >> >> >>> > >>>>> >> >> http://lists.kictanet.or.ke/mailman/options/kictanet/bitange%40jam > >>>>> >> >> bo.co.ke > >>>>> >> >> >>> > >>>>> >> >> >>> ---------------------------------------------- > >>>>> >> >> >>> This message has been scanned for viruses and dangerous > >>>>> >> >> >>> content by Jambo MailScanner, and is believed to be clean. > >>>>> >> >> >>> --------------------------------------------- > >>>>> >> >> >>> "easy access to the world" > >>>>> >> >> >>> > >>>>> >> >> >>> > >>>>> >> >> >> > >>>>> >> >> >> > >>>>> >> >> >> > >>>>> >> >> >> ---------------------------------------------- > >>>>> >> >> >> This message has been scanned for viruses and dangerous content > >>>>> >> >> >> by Jambo MailScanner, and is believed to be clean. > >>>>> >> >> >> --------------------------------------------- > >>>>> >> >> >> "easy access to the world" > >>>>> >> >> >> > >>>>> >> >> >> > >>>>> >> >> >> _______________________________________________ > >>>>> >> >> >> kictanet mailing list > >>>>> >> >> >> [email protected] > >>>>> >> >> >> http://lists.kictanet.or.ke/mailman/listinfo/kictanet > >>>>> >> >> >> > >>>>> >> >> >> This message was sent to: [email protected] or > >>>>> >> >> >> change your options at > >>>>> >> >> >> > >>>>> >> >> http://lists.kictanet.or.ke/mailman/options/kictanet/solo.mburu%40 > >>>>> >> >> gmail.com > >>>>> >> >> >> > >>>>> >> >> > > >>>>> >> >> > > >>>>> >> >> > -- > >>>>> >> >> > Solomon Mb?r? Kamau > >>>>> >> >> > P.O. Box 19343 - 00202 Nairobi > >>>>> >> >> > Cell: (+254-0) 735 431041 > >>>>> >> >> > > >>>>> >> >> > Man is a gregarious animal and enjoys agreement as cows will > >>>>> >> >> > graze all the same way to the side of a hill! > >>>>> >> >> > > >>>>> >> >> > AND > >>>>> >> >> > > >>>>> >> >> > It is better to die in dignity than in the ignomity of ambiguous > >>>>> >> >> generosity! > >>>>> >> >> > > >>>>> >> >> > http://dawn-in-kenya.blogspot.com http://smiley2.wordpress.com > >>>>> >> >> > http://mburu.sikika.co.ke > >>>>> >> >> > > >>>>> >> >> > _______________________________________________ > >>>>> >> >> > kictanet mailing list > >>>>> >> >> > [email protected] > >>>>> >> >> > http://lists.kictanet.or.ke/mailman/listinfo/kictanet > >>>>> >> >> > > >>>>> >> >> > This message was sent to: [email protected] > >>>>> >> >> > or change your options at > >>>>> >> >> http://lists.kictanet.or.ke/mailman/options/kictanet/otieno.barrac > >>>>> >> >> k%40gmail.com > >>>>> >> >> > > >>>>> >> >> > >>>>> >> >> > >>>>> >> >> > >>>>> >> >> -- > >>>>> >> >> Barrack O. Otieno > >>>>> >> >> Palais de Nations Genéve > >>>>> >> >> Skype: barrack.otieno > >>>>> >> >> > >>>>> >> >> _______________________________________________ > >>>>> >> >> kictanet mailing list > >>>>> >> >> [email protected] > >>>>> >> >> http://lists.kictanet.or.ke/mailman/listinfo/kictanet > >>>>> >> >> > >>>>> >> >> This message was sent to: [email protected] Unsubscribe or > >>>>> >> >> change your options at > >>>>> >> >> http://lists.kictanet.or.ke/mailman/options/kictanet/timwololo%40g > >>>>> >> >> mail.com > >>>>> >> >> > >>>>> >> > > >>>>> >> > >>>>> >> > >>>>> >> > >>>>> >> > >>>>> >> _______________________________________________ > >>>>> >> kictanet mailing list > >>>>> >> [email protected] > >>>>> >> http://lists.kictanet.or.ke/mailman/listinfo/kictanet > >>>>> >> > >>>>> >> This message was sent to: [email protected] Unsubscribe or > >>>>> >> change your options at > >>>>> >> http://lists.kictanet.or.ke/mailman/options/kictanet/emailsignet%40ma > >>>>> >> ilcan.com > >>>>> >> > >>>>> > > >>>>> > _______________________________________________ > >>>>> > kictanet mailing list > >>>>> > [email protected] > >>>>> > http://lists.kictanet.or.ke/mailman/listinfo/kictanet > >>>>> > > >>>>> > This message was sent to: [email protected] Unsubscribe or > >>>>> > change your options at > >>>>> > http://lists.kictanet.or.ke/mailman/options/kictanet/otieno.barrack%40 > >>>>> > gmail.com > >>>>> > > >>>>> > >>>>> > >>>>> > >>>>> -- > >>>>> Barrack O. 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participants (7)
-
Agosta Liko -
charles nduati -
ikua＠lpakenya.org -
Kamotho Njenga -
Sam Aguyo -
Vitalis Olunga -
waudo siganga