Convergence that was brought by the Internet has taken away most of the jobs that the regulators were doing. It is only natural that they justify their existence. Even self regulation requires regulation :-) Regards On Fri, 2 Nov 2018 10:41 Mwanah Cephas Okoth via kictanet, < kictanet@lists.kictanet.or.ke> wrote:

Yes Ali,

Been trying to wonder -- what's the end game here. Is it really value addition or just mere regulation?

On Fri, Nov 2, 2018 at 6:15 AM Ali Hussein via kictanet < kictanet@lists.kictanet.or.ke> wrote:

...

@GG

Thanks for sharing. I’m curious as to what the world is coming to. Everyone wants to snoop and regulate. Can the CA tell us what’s the major value proposition to increasing snooping on us?

Regulators need to spend more time enabling the sector they are supposed to grow and the CA has really been progressive in many ways. Once in a while though they try to go back to the bad old KANU days. The onus is on us to remind them that Kenyans shut that door kitambo sana.

*Ali Hussein* *Principal* *AHK & Associates* +254 0713 601113

Twitter: @AliHKassim

Skype: abu-jomo

LinkedIn: http://ke.linkedin.com/in/alihkassim

"We are what we repeatedly do. Excellence, therefore, is not an act but a habit." ~ Aristotle

Sent from my iPad

On 1 Nov 2018, at 10:57 PM, Grace Githaiga via kictanet < kictanet@lists.kictanet.or.ke> wrote:

Kenya is considering regulating online services such as WhatsApp and Skype in a radical move that could force the internet-based service providers to share data with the government.

The Communications Authority of Kenya (CA) is in search of a consultant to study and determine how the so-called over-the-top services (OTTS) operated by groups such as Facebook, which runs WhatsApp, and Skype owner Microsoft, could be regulated. Read on: https://www.nation.co.ke/business/Telcos-regulator-seeks-to-monitor-WhatsApp...

Best regards

Githaiga, Grace

Co-Convenor Kenya ICT Action Network (KICTANet) Twitter:@ggithaiga Tel: 254722701495 Skype: gracegithaiga Alternate email: ggithaiga@hotmail.com Linkedin: https://www.linkedin.com/in/gracegithaiga www.kictanet.or.ke

"Change only happens when ordinary people get involved, get engaged and come together to demand it. I am asking you to believe. Not in my ability to bring about change – but in yours"---Barrack Obama.

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The Kenya ICT Action Network (KICTANet) is a multi-stakeholder platform for people and institutions interested and involved in ICT policy and regulation. The network aims to act as a catalyst for reform in the ICT sector in support of the national aim of ICT enabled growth and development.

KICTANetiquette : Adhere to the same standards of acceptable behaviors online that you follow in real life: respect people's times and bandwidth, share knowledge, don't flame or abuse or personalize, respect privacy, do not spam, do not market your wares or qualifications.

Thanks Wambua. Just to clarify, and even rubbish that article, we need to understand that a platform like whatsapp uses end to end encryption, and cannot be snooped on, not even by Facebook. End-to-end encryption When end-to-end encrypted, your messages, photos, videos, voice messages, documents, status updates and calls are secured from falling into the wrong hands. WhatsApp end-to-end encryption ensures only you and the person you're communicating with can read what's sent, and nobody in between, not even WhatsApp. Your messages are secured with locks, and only the recipient and you have the special keys needed to unlock and read your messages. For added protection, every message you send has an unique lock and key. All of this happens automatically: No need to turn on settings or set up special secret chats to secure your messages. Important: End-to-end encryption is always activated. There's no way to turn off end-to-end encryption. OK, Now that we have debunked the possibility of CA reading your whatsapp, let us look at the types of regulations CA can put on over the top services. Remember Uganda social media tax? What about Ethiopia restriction of Skype? Yes those are the two most popular regulatory interventions that backward regimes use. 1. Censorship, filtering, and blockage 2. Taxation On Fri, Nov 2, 2018, 11:50 AM Wambua, Christopher via kictanet < kictanet@lists.kictanet.or.ke> wrote:

Listers

For purposes of clarity on the objects of the tender in question, I wish to refer listers to the public tender document which is available on CA’s website at https://ca.go.ke/wp-content/uploads/2018/10/Consultancy-Services-For-The-Stu...

In brief, the Authority, under its strategic objective of enabling widespread deployment of infrastructure and services through promotion of new and emerging technologies, plans to undertake a study to determine the regulatory mechanisms that can be employed to cater for new and emerging areas with specific focus on over the top services. The consultant shall be expected to propose the regulatory approach that the Authority can take in respect to OTTs. CA takes this opportunity to invite listers who meet the requirements set out in the tender documents to submit their bids by 14th November 2018.

CA wishes to assure listers that we have not interest whatsoever in snooping into your WhatsApp conversations as that would be against the spirit and letter of the constitution. We have however noted that the headlines on the articles on this tender are misleading, and the Authority is taking up this matter with the respective editors.

I hope this clarification puts this matter to rest.

Regards

Christopher Wambua

Ag. Director/Consumer & Public Affairs | Consumer and Public Affairs

[image: Description: Description: http://digital.scanad.com/casignature/img/logo.png]

Tel: +254 20 4242000/284

Office Mobile: +254 730 042284/

+254 730172284

P.O. Box 14448 Nairobi 00800

[image: Description: Description: http://digital.scanad.com/casignature/img/mail.png]*wambua@ca.go.ke <wambua@ca.go.ke> *[image: Description: Description: http://digital.scanad.com/casignature/img/facebook.png]Communications Authority of Kenya <https://www.facebook.com/CAOKenya?ref=hl> [image: Description: Description: http://digital.scanad.com/casignature/img/twitter.png]ca_kenya <https://twitter.com/CA_Kenya>[image: Description: Description: http://digital.scanad.com/casignature/img/web.png]www.ca.go.ke <http://www.ca.go.ke/>

[image: Description: Description: http://digital.scanad.com/signature/banner.jpg]

From: kictanet <kictanet-bounces+wambua=ca.go.ke@lists.kictanet.or.ke> on behalf of KICTAnet Discussions <kictanet@lists.kictanet.or.ke> Reply-To: KICTAnet Discussions <kictanet@lists.kictanet.or.ke> Date: Friday, 2 November 2018 at 05:07 To: Christopher Wambua <wambua@ca.go.ke> Cc: Ali Hussein <ali@hussein.me.ke> Subject: Re: [kictanet] Telcos regulator seeks to monitor WhatsApp

@GG

Thanks for sharing. I’m curious as to what the world is coming to. Everyone wants to snoop and regulate. Can the CA tell us what’s the major value proposition to increasing snooping on us?

Regulators need to spend more time enabling the sector they are supposed to grow and the CA has really been progressive in many ways. Once in a while though they try to go back to the bad old KANU days. The onus is on us to remind them that Kenyans shut that door kitambo sana.

*Ali Hussein* *Principal* *AHK & Associates* +254 0713 601113

Twitter: @AliHKassim

Skype: abu-jomo

LinkedIn: http://ke.linkedin.com/in/alihkassim

"We are what we repeatedly do. Excellence, therefore, is not an act but a habit." ~ Aristotle

Sent from my iPad

On 1 Nov 2018, at 10:57 PM, Grace Githaiga via kictanet < kictanet@lists.kictanet.or.ke> wrote:

Kenya is considering regulating online services such as WhatsApp and Skype in a radical move that could force the internet-based service providers to share data with the government.

The Communications Authority of Kenya (CA) is in search of a consultant to study and determine how the so-called over-the-top services (OTTS) operated by groups such as Facebook, which runs WhatsApp, and Skype owner Microsoft, could be regulated. Read on: https://www.nation.co.ke/business/Telcos-regulator-seeks-to-monitor-WhatsApp...

Best regards

Githaiga, Grace

Co-Convenor Kenya ICT Action Network (KICTANet) Twitter:@ggithaiga Tel: 254722701495 Skype: gracegithaiga Alternate email: ggithaiga@hotmail.com Linkedin: https://www.linkedin.com/in/gracegithaiga www.kictanet.or.ke

"Change only happens when ordinary people get involved, get engaged and come together to demand it. I am asking you to believe. Not in my ability to bring about change – but in yours"---Barrack Obama.

_______________________________________________ kictanet mailing list kictanet@lists.kictanet.or.ke https://lists.kictanet.or.ke/mailman/listinfo/kictanet Twitter: http://twitter.com/kictanet Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/KICTANet/ Domain Registration sponsored by www.eacdirectory.co.ke

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KICTANetiquette : Adhere to the same standards of acceptable behaviors online that you follow in real life: respect people's times and bandwidth, share knowledge, don't flame or abuse or personalize, respect privacy, do not spam, do not market your wares or qualifications.

_______________________________________________ kictanet mailing list kictanet@lists.kictanet.or.ke https://lists.kictanet.or.ke/mailman/listinfo/kictanet Twitter: http://twitter.com/kictanet Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/KICTANet/ Domain Registration sponsored by www.eacdirectory.co.ke

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The Kenya ICT Action Network (KICTANet) is a multi-stakeholder platform for people and institutions interested and involved in ICT policy and regulation. The network aims to act as a catalyst for reform in the ICT sector in support of the national aim of ICT enabled growth and development.

KICTANetiquette : Adhere to the same standards of acceptable behaviors online that you follow in real life: respect people's times and bandwidth, share knowledge, don't flame or abuse or personalize, respect privacy, do not spam, do not market your wares or qualifications.

I am not sure if this has already been posted, but this article says the regulator wants the data stored on WhatsApp and Skype to be shared by the Govt. https://www.businessdailyafrica.com/economy/Telcos-regulator-seeks-to-monito... On Fri, 2 Nov 2018 at 16:56, Mark Elkins via kictanet < kictanet@lists.kictanet.or.ke> wrote:

As a follow on to WhatsApp and its end-to-end security - one can do something quite similar for e-mail.

Practising what I preach...

At Posix Systems - customers can send e-mail to my mail relay server. This is running Mail Submission on port 587 with username/password authentication over TLS (The session is encrypted). This has the distinct advantage of working from any Internet connection my customer is on and everything is encrypted whilst over the wire. Additionally, if you are an ISP with your own customer infrastructure - you can now block port 25 and reduce SPAM from Virus' on customer PC's. Customers can also fetch e-mail (POP3/IMAP) over TLS (Ports 995 and 993 respectively) - so both the e-mail and passwords are also securely encrypted when fetching/downloading email.

Whilst email-server to email-server can opportunistically also run TLS (encryption) between MTA's (Mail Transport Agents), I also run DANE. This means if the target mail system advertises their TLS info in a TLSA DNS record (Advertise their SSL Certificate in the DNS System) - I KNOW they have TLS (a Security Certificate) and WHAT IT SHOULD LOOK LIKE - so if a connection is made and either the TLS signature is incorrect or does not exist (perhaps a man-in-the-middle attack) - the mail will not be delivered. The only issue with this is the target TLSA record must be in a DNSSEC signed zone - and obviously, the sending MTU must use a DNSSEC aware DNS Resolver to check the Target Mail system.

This setup though gives end-to-end encryption of e-mail that no one can intercept. The MTA's though do have the e-mail in an unencrypted form. I'd presume the e-mail customers can trust their ISP's.

(Although technical - I hope this brief description is understandable)

On 11/02/2018 12:16 PM, Mwendwa Kivuva via kictanet wrote:

Thanks Wambua.

Just to clarify, and even rubbish that article, we need to understand that a platform like whatsapp uses end to end encryption, and cannot be snooped on, not even by Facebook.

End-to-end encryption

When end-to-end encrypted, your messages, photos, videos, voice messages, documents, status updates and calls are secured from falling into the wrong hands.

WhatsApp end-to-end encryption ensures only you and the person you're communicating with can read what's sent, and nobody in between, not even WhatsApp. Your messages are secured with locks, and only the recipient and you have the special keys needed to unlock and read your messages. For added protection, every message you send has an unique lock and key. All of this happens automatically: No need to turn on settings or set up special secret chats to secure your messages.

Important: End-to-end encryption is always activated. There's no way to turn off end-to-end encryption.

OK, Now that we have debunked the possibility of CA reading your whatsapp, let us look at the types of regulations CA can put on over the top services. Remember Uganda social media tax? What about Ethiopia restriction of Skype? Yes those are the two most popular regulatory interventions that backward regimes use.

1. Censorship, filtering, and blockage

2. Taxation

On Fri, Nov 2, 2018, 11:50 AM Wambua, Christopher via kictanet < kictanet@lists.kictanet.or.ke> wrote:

...

Listers

For purposes of clarity on the objects of the tender in question, I wish to refer listers to the public tender document which is available on CA’s website at https://ca.go.ke/wp-content/uploads/2018/10/Consultancy-Services-For-The-Stu...

In brief, the Authority, under its strategic objective of enabling widespread deployment of infrastructure and services through promotion of new and emerging technologies, plans to undertake a study to determine the regulatory mechanisms that can be employed to cater for new and emerging areas with specific focus on over the top services. The consultant shall be expected to propose the regulatory approach that the Authority can take in respect to OTTs. CA takes this opportunity to invite listers who meet the requirements set out in the tender documents to submit their bids by 14th November 2018.

CA wishes to assure listers that we have not interest whatsoever in snooping into your WhatsApp conversations as that would be against the spirit and letter of the constitution. We have however noted that the headlines on the articles on this tender are misleading, and the Authority is taking up this matter with the respective editors.

I hope this clarification puts this matter to rest.

Regards

Christopher Wambua

Ag. Director/Consumer & Public Affairs | Consumer and Public Affairs

[image: Description: Description: http://digital.scanad.com/casignature/img/logo.png]

Tel: +254 20 4242000/284

Office Mobile: +254 730 042284/

+254 730172284

P.O. Box 14448 Nairobi 00800

[image: Description: Description: http://digital.scanad.com/casignature/img/mail.png]*wambua@ca.go.ke <wambua@ca.go.ke> *[image: Description: Description: http://digital.scanad.com/casignature/img/facebook.png]Communications Authority of Kenya <https://www.facebook.com/CAOKenya?ref=hl> [image: Description: Description: http://digital.scanad.com/casignature/img/twitter.png]ca_kenya <https://twitter.com/CA_Kenya>[image: Description: Description: http://digital.scanad.com/casignature/img/web.png]www.ca.go.ke <http://www.ca.go.ke/>

[image: Description: Description: http://digital.scanad.com/signature/banner.jpg]

From: kictanet <kictanet-bounces+wambua=ca.go.ke@lists.kictanet.or.ke> on behalf of KICTAnet Discussions <kictanet@lists.kictanet.or.ke> Reply-To: KICTAnet Discussions <kictanet@lists.kictanet.or.ke> Date: Friday, 2 November 2018 at 05:07 To: Christopher Wambua <wambua@ca.go.ke> Cc: Ali Hussein <ali@hussein.me.ke> Subject: Re: [kictanet] Telcos regulator seeks to monitor WhatsApp

@GG

Thanks for sharing. I’m curious as to what the world is coming to. Everyone wants to snoop and regulate. Can the CA tell us what’s the major value proposition to increasing snooping on us?

Regulators need to spend more time enabling the sector they are supposed to grow and the CA has really been progressive in many ways. Once in a while though they try to go back to the bad old KANU days. The onus is on us to remind them that Kenyans shut that door kitambo sana.

*Ali Hussein* *Principal* *AHK & Associates* +254 0713 601113

Twitter: @AliHKassim

Skype: abu-jomo

LinkedIn: http://ke.linkedin.com/in/alihkassim

"We are what we repeatedly do. Excellence, therefore, is not an act but a habit." ~ Aristotle

Sent from my iPad

On 1 Nov 2018, at 10:57 PM, Grace Githaiga via kictanet < kictanet@lists.kictanet.or.ke> wrote:

Kenya is considering regulating online services such as WhatsApp and Skype in a radical move that could force the internet-based service providers to share data with the government.

The Communications Authority of Kenya (CA) is in search of a consultant to study and determine how the so-called over-the-top services (OTTS) operated by groups such as Facebook, which runs WhatsApp, and Skype owner Microsoft, could be regulated. Read on: https://www.nation.co.ke/business/Telcos-regulator-seeks-to-monitor-WhatsApp...

Best regards

Githaiga, Grace

Co-Convenor Kenya ICT Action Network (KICTANet) Twitter:@ggithaiga Tel: 254722701495 Skype: gracegithaiga Alternate email: ggithaiga@hotmail.com Linkedin: https://www.linkedin.com/in/gracegithaiga www.kictanet.or.ke

"Change only happens when ordinary people get involved, get engaged and come together to demand it. I am asking you to believe. Not in my ability to bring about change – but in yours"---Barrack Obama.

_______________________________________________ kictanet mailing list kictanet@lists.kictanet.or.ke https://lists.kictanet.or.ke/mailman/listinfo/kictanet Twitter: http://twitter.com/kictanet Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/KICTANet/ Domain Registration sponsored by www.eacdirectory.co.ke

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The Kenya ICT Action Network (KICTANet) is a multi-stakeholder platform for people and institutions interested and involved in ICT policy and regulation. The network aims to act as a catalyst for reform in the ICT sector in support of the national aim of ICT enabled growth and development.

KICTANetiquette : Adhere to the same standards of acceptable behaviors online that you follow in real life: respect people's times and bandwidth, share knowledge, don't flame or abuse or personalize, respect privacy, do not spam, do not market your wares or qualifications.

_______________________________________________ kictanet mailing list kictanet@lists.kictanet.or.ke https://lists.kictanet.or.ke/mailman/listinfo/kictanet Twitter: http://twitter.com/kictanet Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/KICTANet/ Domain Registration sponsored by www.eacdirectory.co.ke

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The Kenya ICT Action Network (KICTANet) is a multi-stakeholder platform for people and institutions interested and involved in ICT policy and regulation. The network aims to act as a catalyst for reform in the ICT sector in support of the national aim of ICT enabled growth and development.

KICTANetiquette : Adhere to the same standards of acceptable behaviors online that you follow in real life: respect people's times and bandwidth, share knowledge, don't flame or abuse or personalize, respect privacy, do not spam, do not market your wares or qualifications.

_______________________________________________ kictanet mailing listkictanet@lists.kictanet.or.kehttps://lists.kictanet.or.ke/mailman/listinfo/kictanet Twitter: http://twitter.com/kictanet Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/KICTANet/ Domain Registration sponsored by www.eacdirectory.co.ke

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The Kenya ICT Action Network (KICTANet) is a multi-stakeholder platform for people and institutions interested and involved in ICT policy and regulation. The network aims to act as a catalyst for reform in the ICT sector in support of the national aim of ICT enabled growth and development.

KICTANetiquette : Adhere to the same standards of acceptable behaviors online that you follow in real life: respect people's times and bandwidth, share knowledge, don't flame or abuse or personalize, respect privacy, do not spam, do not market your wares or qualifications.

-- Mark James ELKINS - Posix Systems - (South) Africamje@posix.co.za Tel: +27.128070590 Cell: +27.826010496 For fast, reliable, low cost Internet in ZA: https://ftth.posix.co.za

_______________________________________________ kictanet mailing list kictanet@lists.kictanet.or.ke https://lists.kictanet.or.ke/mailman/listinfo/kictanet Twitter: http://twitter.com/kictanet Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/KICTANet/ Domain Registration sponsored by www.eacdirectory.co.ke

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The Kenya ICT Action Network (KICTANet) is a multi-stakeholder platform for people and institutions interested and involved in ICT policy and regulation. The network aims to act as a catalyst for reform in the ICT sector in support of the national aim of ICT enabled growth and development.

KICTANetiquette : Adhere to the same standards of acceptable behaviors online that you follow in real life: respect people's times and bandwidth, share knowledge, don't flame or abuse or personalize, respect privacy, do not spam, do not market your wares or qualifications.

-- Sent from Gmail Mobile

Wambua Thanks for the clarifications. We are watching 😀 Ali Hussein +254 0713 601113 Twitter: @AliHKassim Skype: abu-jomo LinkedIn: http://ke.linkedin.com/in/alihkassim Blog: www.alyhussein.com "Discovery consists in seeing what everyone else has seen and thinking what no one else has thought". ~ Albert Szent-Györgyi Sent from my iPad

On 2 Nov 2018, at 11:50 AM, Wambua, Christopher via kictanet <kictanet@lists.kictanet.or.ke> wrote:

Listers

For purposes of clarity on the objects of the tender in question, I wish to refer listers to the public tender document which is available on CA’s website at https://ca.go.ke/wp-content/uploads/2018/10/Consultancy-Services-For-The-Stu...

In brief, the Authority, under its strategic objective of enabling widespread deployment of infrastructure and services through promotion of new and emerging technologies, plans to undertake a study to determine the regulatory mechanisms that can be employed to cater for new and emerging areas with specific focus on over the top services. The consultant shall be expected to propose the regulatory approach that the Authority can take in respect to OTTs. CA takes this opportunity to invite listers who meet the requirements set out in the tender documents to submit their bids by 14th November 2018.

CA wishes to assure listers that we have not interest whatsoever in snooping into your WhatsApp conversations as that would be against the spirit and letter of the constitution. We have however noted that the headlines on the articles on this tender are misleading, and the Authority is taking up this matter with the respective editors.

I hope this clarification puts this matter to rest.

Regards

Christopher Wambua Ag. Director/Consumer & Public Affairs | Consumer and Public Affairs

Tel: +254 20 4242000/284 Office Mobile: +254 730 042284/ +254 730172284 P.O. Box 14448 Nairobi 00800 <179248EF-1290-4491-91E8-8836B67E74D5[2].png>wambua@ca.go.ke <439BA291-2CE2-4EF0-A749-2F6EA4DE4509[2].png>Communications Authority of Kenya <3A72261F-3506-4380-BB85-634B1D584128[2].png>ca_kenya www.ca.go.ke

From: kictanet <kictanet-bounces+wambua=ca.go.ke@lists.kictanet.or.ke> on behalf of KICTAnet Discussions <kictanet@lists.kictanet.or.ke> Reply-To: KICTAnet Discussions <kictanet@lists.kictanet.or.ke> Date: Friday, 2 November 2018 at 05:07 To: Christopher Wambua <wambua@ca.go.ke> Cc: Ali Hussein <ali@hussein.me.ke> Subject: Re: [kictanet] Telcos regulator seeks to monitor WhatsApp

@GG

Thanks for sharing. I’m curious as to what the world is coming to. Everyone wants to snoop and regulate. Can the CA tell us what’s the major value proposition to increasing snooping on us?

Regulators need to spend more time enabling the sector they are supposed to grow and the CA has really been progressive in many ways. Once in a while though they try to go back to the bad old KANU days. The onus is on us to remind them that Kenyans shut that door kitambo sana.

Ali Hussein Principal AHK & Associates +254 0713 601113

Twitter: @AliHKassim Skype: abu-jomo LinkedIn: http://ke.linkedin.com/in/alihkassim

"We are what we repeatedly do. Excellence, therefore, is not an act but a habit." ~ Aristotle

Sent from my iPad

On 1 Nov 2018, at 10:57 PM, Grace Githaiga via kictanet <kictanet@lists.kictanet.or.ke> wrote:

...

Kenya is considering regulating online services such as WhatsApp and Skype in a radical move that could force the internet-based service providers to share data with the government.

The Communications Authority of Kenya (CA) is in search of a consultant to study and determine how the so-called over-the-top services (OTTS) operated by groups such as Facebook, which runs WhatsApp, and Skype owner Microsoft, could be regulated.

Read on: https://www.nation.co.ke/business/Telcos-regulator-seeks-to-monitor-WhatsApp...

Best regards

Githaiga, Grace

Co-Convenor Kenya ICT Action Network (KICTANet) Twitter:@ggithaiga Tel: 254722701495 Skype: gracegithaiga Alternate email: ggithaiga@hotmail.com Linkedin: https://www.linkedin.com/in/gracegithaiga www.kictanet.or.ke

"Change only happens when ordinary people get involved, get engaged and come together to demand it. I am asking you to believe. Not in my ability to bring about change – but in yours"---Barrack Obama. _______________________________________________ kictanet mailing list kictanet@lists.kictanet.or.ke https://lists.kictanet.or.ke/mailman/listinfo/kictanet Twitter: http://twitter.com/kictanet Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/KICTANet/ Domain Registration sponsored by www.eacdirectory.co.ke

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The Kenya ICT Action Network (KICTANet) is a multi-stakeholder platform for people and institutions interested and involved in ICT policy and regulation. The network aims to act as a catalyst for reform in the ICT sector in support of the national aim of ICT enabled growth and development.

KICTANetiquette : Adhere to the same standards of acceptable behaviors online that you follow in real life: respect people's times and bandwidth, share knowledge, don't flame or abuse or personalize, respect privacy, do not spam, do not market your wares or qualifications.

Morning Mr Patrick Maina, You mention how messaging apps facilitate fake news, crime and other things. You also lay peace,development on a scale versus human rights such as free speech and privacy. Sir, it is good to be objective and factual. Last year Kenya had 10 months of hot politics. Research shows that the Kenyan authorities did not attempt to control, disrupt or shutdown the internet. Hence this tired line of the country going into flames because of the internet (messaging apps) doesn't hold any weight. The number of Kenyan users of these messaging apps and other factors such as social class of users, bots affect the impact of the internet in democratic transitions. The broadcast media shut down in January should tell which communication medium has more impact on the Kenyan society. 😉 I believe your intention was to state why companies that offer over the top services should pay taxes here. That is a different argument all together with a different set of facts unless you are advocating for a blanket over the top tax to be paid by users to avoid 'spread of gossip and lies' just like in Uganda. On Fri, 2 Nov 2018, 13:26 Patrick A. M. Maina via kictanet, < kictanet@lists.kictanet.or.ke> wrote:

These messaging apps facilitate fake news, crime, foreign meddling (to subvert democracy), brainwashing and hate speech on a massive scale. We know this for a fact.

So as citizens and stakeholders in our country, we need to ask: what do we value more, is it things that improve peace, stability, economic development and democracy, OR, is it some utopian, unbounded notion of free speech and privacy that is disconnected from our contextual reality (e.g. protects criminals, malicious defamers and violence mongers in equal proportion as law abiding citizens)?

The companies running these uncontrolled messaging platforms will not be impacted if our country goes up in flames. They cost governments tons of money in maintaining internal security (especially during democratic transitions - sometimes to existential levels) yet they don't pay any taxes... and mark you, they are *billion dollar* companies! This also means that funds that ought to have bought, say, medicine to save lives gets diverted to fix an *imported problem* with no path to holding the parent company accountable for damage caused.

Gok needs to modernize our tax laws, which currently are based on the traditional "for profit" enterprise model and thus out of touch with Silicon Valley's "make losses by design" model. The basic assumption that entrepreneurship is a profit oriented endeavour does not hold for Silicon Valley VC subsidized companies. They are designed to operate as loss makers for decades (but still move *massive* amounts of financial resources at massive scale). This has the technical effect of *tax avoidance* because massive profits *are* still being made by the offshore VCs - which denies governments billions in taxes (despite imposing local burdens as illustrated above).

A smart government would create modernized laws to tax VC funded Silicon Valley companies e.g. on the basis of *funding rounds* and *valuations* because this is their *real* business i.e. its how the investors intend to make money from day one - and the primary reason they push for perpetual losses!

There should also be a turnover tax and VAT on online revenue earned in Kenya by foreign billion dollar internet companies (e.g. advertisement revenue and appstore revenue), to level the tax playing field for local businesses. Similar to what other countries like the UK are working on:

https://www.wired.co.uk/article/facebook-uk-tax-bill

CA will obviously have a hard time monitoring and enforcing though, under the current traditional framework due to technical barriers (e.g. encryption) and also due to jurisdictional challenges.

So the other thing that CA really needs to do once the rules are set is to consider blocking non-compliant foreign apps completely at ISP level (especially now that political temperatures are cool and people and thinking clearly). Lets have local startups filling any gaps with copycat apps China-style.

To be clear, I support free speech and privacy. But I also support peace, stability, safe neighbourhoods, democracy, sovereignty and economic predictability!

A delicate balance is needed to maximise the rights of law abiding citizens while minimising the ability of those with evil intent to exploit basic rights in order to harm the innocent.

Good day. Patrick.

On Thursday, November 1, 2018, 11:00:44 PM GMT+3, Grace Githaiga via kictanet <kictanet@lists.kictanet.or.ke> wrote:

Kenya is considering regulating online services such as WhatsApp and Skype in a radical move that could force the internet-based service providers to share data with the government.

The Communications Authority of Kenya (CA) is in search of a consultant to study and determine how the so-called over-the-top services (OTTS) operated by groups such as Facebook, which runs WhatsApp, and Skype owner Microsoft, could be regulated. Read on: https://www.nation.co.ke/business/Telcos-regulator-seeks-to-monitor-WhatsApp...

Best regards

Githaiga, Grace

Co-Convenor Kenya ICT Action Network (KICTANet) Twitter:@ggithaiga Tel: 254722701495 Skype: gracegithaiga Alternate email: ggithaiga@hotmail.com Linkedin: https://www.linkedin.com/in/gracegithaiga www.kictanet.or.ke

"Change only happens when ordinary people get involved, get engaged and come together to demand it. I am asking you to believe. Not in my ability to bring about change – but in yours"---Barrack Obama.

_______________________________________________ kictanet mailing list kictanet@lists.kictanet.or.ke https://lists.kictanet.or.ke/mailman/listinfo/kictanet Twitter: http://twitter.com/kictanet Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/KICTANet/ Domain Registration sponsored by www.eacdirectory.co.ke

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The Kenya ICT Action Network (KICTANet) is a multi-stakeholder platform for people and institutions interested and involved in ICT policy and regulation. The network aims to act as a catalyst for reform in the ICT sector in support of the national aim of ICT enabled growth and development.

KICTANetiquette : Adhere to the same standards of acceptable behaviors online that you follow in real life: respect people's times and bandwidth, share knowledge, don't flame or abuse or personalize, respect privacy, do not spam, do not market your wares or qualifications. _______________________________________________ kictanet mailing list kictanet@lists.kictanet.or.ke https://lists.kictanet.or.ke/mailman/listinfo/kictanet Twitter: http://twitter.com/kictanet Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/KICTANet/ Domain Registration sponsored by www.eacdirectory.co.ke

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The Kenya ICT Action Network (KICTANet) is a multi-stakeholder platform for people and institutions interested and involved in ICT policy and regulation. The network aims to act as a catalyst for reform in the ICT sector in support of the national aim of ICT enabled growth and development.

KICTANetiquette : Adhere to the same standards of acceptable behaviors online that you follow in real life: respect people's times and bandwidth, share knowledge, don't flame or abuse or personalize, respect privacy, do not spam, do not market your wares or qualifications.

This is debate on government control of technology is just ridiculous in my own opinion. The vey nature of technology is to disrupt the very nature of controls that are enacted by governments, and that has been the case in our history regardless of technology. The more controls you try and put on such an ecosystem, the more technology will evolve..There is no way a government will be able to keep up, unless it wants to restrict complete access to information which China tries, but it still fails miserably as citizens are more resilient than one thinks.. Governments are the one's that fuel most of the fake news, it is not the irresponsible citizens which at time are in a minority. The question is not about who controls what which the government is trying to do but in a more sadistic way. The question is that technology is disruptive, and how does a country become a progressive nation to embrace such disruptiveness, you cannot stop this technology revolution, in fact it gets even more difficult from hereon. Just my two cents.. Regards, Bhaves Shah Founder-CEO JabJab Group Ltd +254 707 306639 website - www.jabjabgroup.com twitter - https://twitter.com/jabjabgroup facebook - https://www.facebook.com/jabjabgroup/ On Tue, Nov 6, 2018 at 10:45 AM evelyne wanjiku via kictanet < kictanet@lists.kictanet.or.ke> wrote:

Dear All,

In suppport of Mr. Patrick Mainas Maina's input.

The government needs to consider taxing the platforms. This is because they make money from us trade in our data and the revenue genereted benefits their countries and not ours given that they do not pay taxes here. This has been considered in Europe. In africa however, no country can apply this taxes on its own due to our 'economically colonised' position our countries find ourselves in. This means that the easiest option for our government becomes the easy route which is taxing the end user. This is counterproductive especially for those who use social media for productive activities. Therefore only a united african front would be succesful in getting these giants to pay up and keep our governments from considering taxing citizens. It is also important to consider that calls made on whatsapp, skype,viber cost less. This means that there is revenue reduction for the companies providing voice services. Considering that these companies are locally based and pay taxes to our government, why should their revenue be reduced by services that do not pay taxes to us? I suppose this is the logic used by countries like the UAE that block the use of whatsapp to make calls whithin their borders.

As for the ability of whatsapp to cause chaos, this is true and has been proven and whatsapp itself has acknowlegded this fact in countries like India and Pakistan. These are countries where fake news and inflammatory messages delivered mainly through whatsapp have led to chaos that have led to deaths of many people. Whatsapp has responded by putting in measures to ensure that such spread of hate news can be controlled from their end. Whatsapp also remains open open to suggestions as to how this can be contolled and is actively leading research in this area.

The question therefore should be, should we leave Whatsapp to be in charge of what is transfered on their platform and the consequences that follow? Should government have a role in monitoring how whatsapp is being used for harmful activities. Overall what is the role of government and the various platforms in ensuring this platform and others are used responsibly?

Good day to all

On Tuesday, November 6, 2018, 3:44:22 AM GMT+3, Francis Monyango via kictanet <kictanet@lists.kictanet.or.ke> wrote:

Morning Mr Patrick Maina,

You mention how messaging apps facilitate fake news, crime and other things. You also lay peace,development on a scale versus human rights such as free speech and privacy. Sir, it is good to be objective and factual. Last year Kenya had 10 months of hot politics. Research shows that the Kenyan authorities did not attempt to control, disrupt or shutdown the internet. Hence this tired line of the country going into flames because of the internet (messaging apps) doesn't hold any weight. The number of Kenyan users of these messaging apps and other factors such as social class of users, bots affect the impact of the internet in democratic transitions. The broadcast media shut down in January should tell which communication medium has more impact on the Kenyan society. 😉

I believe your intention was to state why companies that offer over the top services should pay taxes here. That is a different argument all together with a different set of facts unless you are advocating for a blanket over the top tax to be paid by users to avoid 'spread of gossip and lies' just like in Uganda.

On Fri, 2 Nov 2018, 13:26 Patrick A. M. Maina via kictanet, < kictanet@lists.kictanet.or.ke> wrote:

These messaging apps facilitate fake news, crime, foreign meddling (to subvert democracy), brainwashing and hate speech on a massive scale. We know this for a fact.

So as citizens and stakeholders in our country, we need to ask: what do we value more, is it things that improve peace, stability, economic development and democracy, OR, is it some utopian, unbounded notion of free speech and privacy that is disconnected from our contextual reality (e.g. protects criminals, malicious defamers and violence mongers in equal proportion as law abiding citizens)?

The companies running these uncontrolled messaging platforms will not be impacted if our country goes up in flames. They cost governments tons of money in maintaining internal security (especially during democratic transitions - sometimes to existential levels) yet they don't pay any taxes... and mark you, they are *billion dollar* companies! This also means that funds that ought to have bought, say, medicine to save lives gets diverted to fix an *imported problem* with no path to holding the parent company accountable for damage caused.

Gok needs to modernize our tax laws, which currently are based on the traditional "for profit" enterprise model and thus out of touch with Silicon Valley's "make losses by design" model. The basic assumption that entrepreneurship is a profit oriented endeavour does not hold for Silicon Valley VC subsidized companies. They are designed to operate as loss makers for decades (but still move *massive* amounts of financial resources at massive scale). This has the technical effect of *tax avoidance* because massive profits *are* still being made by the offshore VCs - which denies governments billions in taxes (despite imposing local burdens as illustrated above).

A smart government would create modernized laws to tax VC funded Silicon Valley companies e.g. on the basis of *funding rounds* and *valuations* because this is their *real* business i.e. its how the investors intend to make money from day one - and the primary reason they push for perpetual losses!

There should also be a turnover tax and VAT on online revenue earned in Kenya by foreign billion dollar internet companies (e.g. advertisement revenue and appstore revenue), to level the tax playing field for local businesses. Similar to what other countries like the UK are working on:

https://www.wired.co.uk/article/facebook-uk-tax-bill

CA will obviously have a hard time monitoring and enforcing though, under the current traditional framework due to technical barriers (e.g. encryption) and also due to jurisdictional challenges.

So the other thing that CA really needs to do once the rules are set is to consider blocking non-compliant foreign apps completely at ISP level (especially now that political temperatures are cool and people and thinking clearly). Lets have local startups filling any gaps with copycat apps China-style.

To be clear, I support free speech and privacy. But I also support peace, stability, safe neighbourhoods, democracy, sovereignty and economic predictability!

A delicate balance is needed to maximise the rights of law abiding citizens while minimising the ability of those with evil intent to exploit basic rights in order to harm the innocent.

Good day. Patrick.

On Thursday, November 1, 2018, 11:00:44 PM GMT+3, Grace Githaiga via kictanet <kictanet@lists.kictanet.or.ke> wrote:

Kenya is considering regulating online services such as WhatsApp and Skype in a radical move that could force the internet-based service providers to share data with the government.

The Communications Authority of Kenya (CA) is in search of a consultant to study and determine how the so-called over-the-top services (OTTS) operated by groups such as Facebook, which runs WhatsApp, and Skype owner Microsoft, could be regulated. Read on: https://www.nation.co.ke/business/Telcos-regulator-seeks-to-monitor-WhatsApp...

Best regards

Githaiga, Grace

Co-Convenor Kenya ICT Action Network (KICTANet) Twitter:@ggithaiga Tel: 254722701495 Skype: gracegithaiga Alternate email: ggithaiga@hotmail.com Linkedin: https://www.linkedin.com/in/gracegithaiga www.kictanet.or.ke

"Change only happens when ordinary people get involved, get engaged and come together to demand it. I am asking you to believe. Not in my ability to bring about change – but in yours"---Barrack Obama.

_______________________________________________ kictanet mailing list kictanet@lists.kictanet.or.ke https://lists.kictanet.or.ke/mailman/listinfo/kictanet Twitter: http://twitter.com/kictanet Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/KICTANet/ Domain Registration sponsored by www.eacdirectory.co.ke

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KICTANetiquette : Adhere to the same standards of acceptable behaviors online that you follow in real life: respect people's times and bandwidth, share knowledge, don't flame or abuse or personalize, respect privacy, do not spam, do not market your wares or qualifications. _______________________________________________ kictanet mailing list kictanet@lists.kictanet.or.ke https://lists.kictanet.or.ke/mailman/listinfo/kictanet Twitter: http://twitter.com/kictanet Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/KICTANet/ Domain Registration sponsored by www.eacdirectory.co.ke

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KICTANetiquette : Adhere to the same standards of acceptable behaviors online that you follow in real life: respect people's times and bandwidth, share knowledge, don't flame or abuse or personalize, respect privacy, do not spam, do not market your wares or qualifications.

_______________________________________________ kictanet mailing list kictanet@lists.kictanet.or.ke https://lists.kictanet.or.ke/mailman/listinfo/kictanet Twitter: http://twitter.com/kictanet Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/KICTANet/ Domain Registration sponsored by www.eacdirectory.co.ke

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KICTANetiquette : Adhere to the same standards of acceptable behaviors online that you follow in real life: respect people's times and bandwidth, share knowledge, don't flame or abuse or personalize, respect privacy, do not spam, do not market your wares or qualifications. _______________________________________________ kictanet mailing list kictanet@lists.kictanet.or.ke https://lists.kictanet.or.ke/mailman/listinfo/kictanet Twitter: http://twitter.com/kictanet Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/KICTANet/ Domain Registration sponsored by www.eacdirectory.co.ke

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The Kenya ICT Action Network (KICTANet) is a multi-stakeholder platform for people and institutions interested and involved in ICT policy and regulation. The network aims to act as a catalyst for reform in the ICT sector in support of the national aim of ICT enabled growth and development.

KICTANetiquette : Adhere to the same standards of acceptable behaviors online that you follow in real life: respect people's times and bandwidth, share knowledge, don't flame or abuse or personalize, respect privacy, do not spam, do not market your wares or qualifications.

Hi Ebele, You are best placed to give us guidance on that question. The reason why this conversation is getting complicated is lack of statistics on the so called benefits carriers are losing because of OTTs. Might you be having any statistics on the same. It appears unanimity among regulators in our region on the issue is growing. Regards On 11/6/18, Ebele Okobi via kictanet <kictanet@lists.kictanet.or.ke> wrote:

This is a fascinating and very timely conversation. As I’m sure all can imagine, I have many thoughts. 😁 I do have a question, first-how much revenue does WhatsApp derive from Kenya?

On Nov 6, 2018, at 7:45 AM, evelyne wanjiku via kictanet <kictanet@lists.kictanet.or.ke<mailto:kictanet@lists.kictanet.or.ke>> wrote:

Dear All,

In suppport of Mr. Patrick Mainas Maina's input.

The government needs to consider taxing the platforms. This is because they make money from us trade in our data and the revenue genereted benefits their countries and not ours given that they do not pay taxes here. This has been considered in Europe. In africa however, no country can apply this taxes on its own due to our 'economically colonised' position our countries find ourselves in. This means that the easiest option for our government becomes the easy route which is taxing the end user. This is counterproductive especially for those who use social media for productive activities. Therefore only a united african front would be succesful in getting these giants to pay up and keep our governments from considering taxing citizens. It is also important to consider that calls made on whatsapp, skype,viber cost less. This means that there is revenue reduction for the companies providing voice services. Considering that these companies are locally based and pay taxes to our government, why should their revenue be reduced by services that do not pay taxes to us? I suppose this is the logic used by countries like the UAE that block the use of whatsapp to make calls whithin their borders.

As for the ability of whatsapp to cause chaos, this is true and has been proven and whatsapp itself has acknowlegded this fact in countries like India and Pakistan. These are countries where fake news and inflammatory messages delivered mainly through whatsapp have led to chaos that have led to deaths of many people. Whatsapp has responded by putting in measures to ensure that such spread of hate news can be controlled from their end. Whatsapp also remains open open to suggestions as to how this can be contolled and is actively leading research in this area.

The question therefore should be, should we leave Whatsapp to be in charge of what is transfered on their platform and the consequences that follow? Should government have a role in monitoring how whatsapp is being used for harmful activities. Overall what is the role of government and the various platforms in ensuring this platform and others are used responsibly?

Good day to all

On Tuesday, November 6, 2018, 3:44:22 AM GMT+3, Francis Monyango via kictanet <kictanet@lists.kictanet.or.ke<mailto:kictanet@lists.kictanet.or.ke>> wrote:

Morning Mr Patrick Maina,

You mention how messaging apps facilitate fake news, crime and other things. You also lay peace,development on a scale versus human rights such as free speech and privacy. Sir, it is good to be objective and factual. Last year Kenya had 10 months of hot politics. Research shows that the Kenyan authorities did not attempt to control, disrupt or shutdown the internet. Hence this tired line of the country going into flames because of the internet (messaging apps) doesn't hold any weight. The number of Kenyan users of these messaging apps and other factors such as social class of users, bots affect the impact of the internet in democratic transitions. The broadcast media shut down in January should tell which communication medium has more impact on the Kenyan society. 😉

I believe your intention was to state why companies that offer over the top services should pay taxes here. That is a different argument all together with a different set of facts unless you are advocating for a blanket over the top tax to be paid by users to avoid 'spread of gossip and lies' just like in Uganda.

On Fri, 2 Nov 2018, 13:26 Patrick A. M. Maina via kictanet, <kictanet@lists.kictanet.or.ke<mailto:kictanet@lists.kictanet.or.ke>> wrote: These messaging apps facilitate fake news, crime, foreign meddling (to subvert democracy), brainwashing and hate speech on a massive scale. We know this for a fact.

So as citizens and stakeholders in our country, we need to ask: what do we value more, is it things that improve peace, stability, economic development and democracy, OR, is it some utopian, unbounded notion of free speech and privacy that is disconnected from our contextual reality (e.g. protects criminals, malicious defamers and violence mongers in equal proportion as law abiding citizens)?

The companies running these uncontrolled messaging platforms will not be impacted if our country goes up in flames. They cost governments tons of money in maintaining internal security (especially during democratic transitions - sometimes to existential levels) yet they don't pay any taxes... and mark you, they are *billion dollar* companies! This also means that funds that ought to have bought, say, medicine to save lives gets diverted to fix an *imported problem* with no path to holding the parent company accountable for damage caused.

Gok needs to modernize our tax laws, which currently are based on the traditional "for profit" enterprise model and thus out of touch with Silicon Valley's "make losses by design" model. The basic assumption that entrepreneurship is a profit oriented endeavour does not hold for Silicon Valley VC subsidized companies. They are designed to operate as loss makers for decades (but still move *massive* amounts of financial resources at massive scale). This has the technical effect of *tax avoidance* because massive profits *are* still being made by the offshore VCs - which denies governments billions in taxes (despite imposing local burdens as illustrated above).

A smart government would create modernized laws to tax VC funded Silicon Valley companies e.g. on the basis of *funding rounds* and *valuations* because this is their *real* business i.e. its how the investors intend to make money from day one - and the primary reason they push for perpetual losses!

There should also be a turnover tax and VAT on online revenue earned in Kenya by foreign billion dollar internet companies (e.g. advertisement revenue and appstore revenue), to level the tax playing field for local businesses. Similar to what other countries like the UK are working on:

https://www.wired.co.uk/article/facebook-uk-tax-bill<https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=https-3A__www.wired.co.uk_article_facebook-2Duk-2Dtax-2Dbill&d=DwMFaQ&c=5VD0RTtNlTh3ycd41b3MUw&r=ArvepG4_wcNu_X9xi3nb_Xa9WsGLVfmK6mwPdVONOTE&m=t74BOKebo761FiLlF3RuH-SUnKGeYceUv24Gp4-Sj5E&s=JpThF3QS5XBibcjJ1Aylg-RSK6s4MaGJtnzz9ILzC9k&e=>

CA will obviously have a hard time monitoring and enforcing though, under the current traditional framework due to technical barriers (e.g. encryption) and also due to jurisdictional challenges.

So the other thing that CA really needs to do once the rules are set is to consider blocking non-compliant foreign apps completely at ISP level (especially now that political temperatures are cool and people and thinking clearly). Lets have local startups filling any gaps with copycat apps China-style.

To be clear, I support free speech and privacy. But I also support peace, stability, safe neighbourhoods, democracy, sovereignty and economic predictability!

A delicate balance is needed to maximise the rights of law abiding citizens while minimising the ability of those with evil intent to exploit basic rights in order to harm the innocent.

Good day. Patrick.

On Thursday, November 1, 2018, 11:00:44 PM GMT+3, Grace Githaiga via kictanet <kictanet@lists.kictanet.or.ke<mailto:kictanet@lists.kictanet.or.ke>> wrote:

Kenya is considering regulating online services such as WhatsApp and Skype in a radical move that could force the internet-based service providers to share data with the government.

The Communications Authority of Kenya (CA) is in search of a consultant to study and determine how the so-called over-the-top services (OTTS) operated by groups such as Facebook, which runs WhatsApp, and Skype owner Microsoft, could be regulated.

Read on: https://www.nation.co.ke/business/Telcos-regulator-seeks-to-monitor-WhatsApp/996-4833020-fn9u7s/index.html<https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=https-3A__www.nation.co.ke_business_Telcos-2Dregulator-2Dseeks-2Dto-2Dmonitor-2DWhatsApp_996-2D4833020-2Dfn9u7s_index.html&d=DwMFaQ&c=5VD0RTtNlTh3ycd41b3MUw&r=ArvepG4_wcNu_X9xi3nb_Xa9WsGLVfmK6mwPdVONOTE&m=t74BOKebo761FiLlF3RuH-SUnKGeYceUv24Gp4-Sj5E&s=cndeiTd4wVC4D6EsU4xGNLbSnmIyYUhzbfcRXK3rLjQ&e=>

Best regards

Githaiga, Grace

Co-Convenor Kenya ICT Action Network (KICTANet) Twitter:@ggithaiga Tel: 254722701495 Skype: gracegithaiga Alternate email: ggithaiga@hotmail.com<mailto:ggithaiga@hotmail.com> Linkedin: https://www.linkedin.com/in/gracegithaiga<https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=https-3A__www.linkedin.com_in_gracegithaiga&d=DwMFaQ&c=5VD0RTtNlTh3ycd41b3MUw&r=ArvepG4_wcNu_X9xi3nb_Xa9WsGLVfmK6mwPdVONOTE&m=t74BOKebo761FiLlF3RuH-SUnKGeYceUv24Gp4-Sj5E&s=SPbDCZGLkvuvhrwZZV8pDdaTSmOKiuLCuepKMWmx2h4&e=> www.kictanet.or.ke<https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=http-3A__www.kictanet.or.ke&d=DwMFaQ&c=5VD0RTtNlTh3ycd41b3MUw&r=ArvepG4_wcNu_X9xi3nb_Xa9WsGLVfmK6mwPdVONOTE&m=t74BOKebo761FiLlF3RuH-SUnKGeYceUv24Gp4-Sj5E&s=HLU_9MXcBS2L_UcONeSbPQJHXMOeVSLcRzPrilhch8E&e=>

"Change only happens when ordinary people get involved, get engaged and come together to demand it. I am asking you to believe. Not in my ability to bring about change – but in yours"---Barrack Obama.

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The Kenya ICT Action Network (KICTANet) is a multi-stakeholder platform for people and institutions interested and involved in ICT policy and regulation. The network aims to act as a catalyst for reform in the ICT sector in support of the national aim of ICT enabled growth and development.

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The Kenya ICT Action Network (KICTANet) is a multi-stakeholder platform for people and institutions interested and involved in ICT policy and regulation. The network aims to act as a catalyst for reform in the ICT sector in support of the national aim of ICT enabled growth and development.

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-- Barrack O. Otieno +254721325277 +254733206359 Skype: barrack.otieno PGP ID: 0x2611D86A

WhatsApp generates no revenue from Kenya. 0 KSh. While I note Ms. Wanjiku’s theory regarding data, there does not yet exist, in any country, a tax regime that extrapolates tax based upon data an online service holds, and a regime that did so would affect many entities, not just WhatsApp. I would be curious to know, however, how exactly tax would be assessed on that basis, and whether it would only apply to data, (and if so, what kind of data, etc.?) or whether it should also apply to any asset that has the potential to be valuable. It seems as well that if we are assessing intangibles, it’s critical to include the tangible economic and social benefits that citizens and governments derive from the use of services like WhatsApp, and the impact of taxing non revenue generating services. I think the points about safety and the extent to which online platforms can be used to reflect existing societal tensions are critically important. It’s one we have been grappling with as a company, as those who engage with us know very well. We recognize the extent to which our platforms provide voice, especially for communities who do not have access to traditional outlets, so balancing the risks against the benefits while maximizing the space for openness is one of our most pressing problems. Stay tuned for more on this topic! That said-it’s not at all clear to me what one has to do with the other. What is the connection between a tax on WhatsApp and the latter issue? How would the tax solve that problem? Is the tax meant to be a direct tax on citizens, and thus onerous enough to keep them from using WhatsApp entirely? Or is the tax meant to be a deterrent to Facebook from offering WhatsApp in Kenya? So is this meant to serve as an economic ban on expression, casting a very wide net and affecting all kinds of expression? Even in the case of Facebook-Facebook does derive some revenue in Kenya. We release revenue figures in our major markets, but not yet in markets across Africa where those figures are a tiny fraction of the global revenue. My team is pushing internally to be able to release these figures in some format across the Continent, because that would greatly inform these conversations. If the goal is to derive tax revenue, understanding the figures will give a much more realistic view, given that the digital ad market across Africa is so small (a fact i would very much like to change, by the way!), Facebook’s revenue share is even smaller, and a tax on that would be very, very far from the windfall governments may be eagerly anticipating. But again-it’s not clear to me what one has to do with the other, or what purpose is served by conflating them, unless the goal is to reduce all forms of online speech. On Nov 6, 2018, at 8:09 AM, Barrack Otieno <otieno.barrack@gmail.com<mailto:otieno.barrack@gmail.com>> wrote: Hi Ebele, You are best placed to give us guidance on that question. The reason why this conversation is getting complicated is lack of statistics on the so called benefits carriers are losing because of OTTs. Might you be having any statistics on the same. It appears unanimity among regulators in our region on the issue is growing. Regards On 11/6/18, Ebele Okobi via kictanet <kictanet@lists.kictanet.or.ke<mailto:kictanet@lists.kictanet.or.ke>> wrote: This is a fascinating and very timely conversation. As I’m sure all can imagine, I have many thoughts. 😁 I do have a question, first-how much revenue does WhatsApp derive from Kenya? On Nov 6, 2018, at 7:45 AM, evelyne wanjiku via kictanet <kictanet@lists.kictanet.or.ke<mailto:kictanet@lists.kictanet.or.ke><mailto:kictanet@lists.kictanet.or.ke>> wrote: Dear All, In suppport of Mr. Patrick Mainas Maina's input. The government needs to consider taxing the platforms. This is because they make money from us trade in our data and the revenue genereted benefits their countries and not ours given that they do not pay taxes here. This has been considered in Europe. In africa however, no country can apply this taxes on its own due to our 'economically colonised' position our countries find ourselves in. This means that the easiest option for our government becomes the easy route which is taxing the end user. This is counterproductive especially for those who use social media for productive activities. Therefore only a united african front would be succesful in getting these giants to pay up and keep our governments from considering taxing citizens. It is also important to consider that calls made on whatsapp, skype,viber cost less. This means that there is revenue reduction for the companies providing voice services. Considering that these companies are locally based and pay taxes to our government, why should their revenue be reduced by services that do not pay taxes to us? I suppose this is the logic used by countries like the UAE that block the use of whatsapp to make calls whithin their borders. As for the ability of whatsapp to cause chaos, this is true and has been proven and whatsapp itself has acknowlegded this fact in countries like India and Pakistan. These are countries where fake news and inflammatory messages delivered mainly through whatsapp have led to chaos that have led to deaths of many people. Whatsapp has responded by putting in measures to ensure that such spread of hate news can be controlled from their end. Whatsapp also remains open open to suggestions as to how this can be contolled and is actively leading research in this area. The question therefore should be, should we leave Whatsapp to be in charge of what is transfered on their platform and the consequences that follow? Should government have a role in monitoring how whatsapp is being used for harmful activities. Overall what is the role of government and the various platforms in ensuring this platform and others are used responsibly? Good day to all On Tuesday, November 6, 2018, 3:44:22 AM GMT+3, Francis Monyango via kictanet <kictanet@lists.kictanet.or.ke<mailto:kictanet@lists.kictanet.or.ke><mailto:kictanet@lists.kictanet.or.ke>> wrote: Morning Mr Patrick Maina, You mention how messaging apps facilitate fake news, crime and other things. You also lay peace,development on a scale versus human rights such as free speech and privacy. Sir, it is good to be objective and factual. Last year Kenya had 10 months of hot politics. Research shows that the Kenyan authorities did not attempt to control, disrupt or shutdown the internet. Hence this tired line of the country going into flames because of the internet (messaging apps) doesn't hold any weight. The number of Kenyan users of these messaging apps and other factors such as social class of users, bots affect the impact of the internet in democratic transitions. The broadcast media shut down in January should tell which communication medium has more impact on the Kenyan society. 😉 I believe your intention was to state why companies that offer over the top services should pay taxes here. That is a different argument all together with a different set of facts unless you are advocating for a blanket over the top tax to be paid by users to avoid 'spread of gossip and lies' just like in Uganda. On Fri, 2 Nov 2018, 13:26 Patrick A. M. Maina via kictanet, <kictanet@lists.kictanet.or.ke<mailto:kictanet@lists.kictanet.or.ke><mailto:kictanet@lists.kictanet.or.ke>> wrote: These messaging apps facilitate fake news, crime, foreign meddling (to subvert democracy), brainwashing and hate speech on a massive scale. We know this for a fact. So as citizens and stakeholders in our country, we need to ask: what do we value more, is it things that improve peace, stability, economic development and democracy, OR, is it some utopian, unbounded notion of free speech and privacy that is disconnected from our contextual reality (e.g. protects criminals, malicious defamers and violence mongers in equal proportion as law abiding citizens)? The companies running these uncontrolled messaging platforms will not be impacted if our country goes up in flames. They cost governments tons of money in maintaining internal security (especially during democratic transitions - sometimes to existential levels) yet they don't pay any taxes... and mark you, they are *billion dollar* companies! This also means that funds that ought to have bought, say, medicine to save lives gets diverted to fix an *imported problem* with no path to holding the parent company accountable for damage caused. Gok needs to modernize our tax laws, which currently are based on the traditional "for profit" enterprise model and thus out of touch with Silicon Valley's "make losses by design" model. The basic assumption that entrepreneurship is a profit oriented endeavour does not hold for Silicon Valley VC subsidized companies. They are designed to operate as loss makers for decades (but still move *massive* amounts of financial resources at massive scale). This has the technical effect of *tax avoidance* because massive profits *are* still being made by the offshore VCs - which denies governments billions in taxes (despite imposing local burdens as illustrated above). A smart government would create modernized laws to tax VC funded Silicon Valley companies e.g. on the basis of *funding rounds* and *valuations* because this is their *real* business i.e. its how the investors intend to make money from day one - and the primary reason they push for perpetual losses! There should also be a turnover tax and VAT on online revenue earned in Kenya by foreign billion dollar internet companies (e.g. advertisement revenue and appstore revenue), to level the tax playing field for local businesses. Similar to what other countries like the UK are working on: https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=https-3A__www.wired.co.uk_article_facebook-2Duk-2Dtax-2Dbill&d=DwIFaQ&c=5VD0RTtNlTh3ycd41b3MUw&r=ArvepG4_wcNu_X9xi3nb_Xa9WsGLVfmK6mwPdVONOTE&m=4ftjmKibWdxoCB4LQ4lGQm-PG-xSys0r2d0wtrK5LCg&s=ec_MFycetv5Y_WOdUciMsYRvCQl1GHmCHUJ0LEsMzfQ&e=<https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=https-3A__www.wired.co.uk_article_facebook-2Duk-2Dtax-2Dbill&d=DwMFaQ&c=5VD0RTtNlTh3ycd41b3MUw&r=ArvepG4_wcNu_X9xi3nb_Xa9WsGLVfmK6mwPdVONOTE&m=t74BOKebo761FiLlF3RuH-SUnKGeYceUv24Gp4-Sj5E&s=JpThF3QS5XBibcjJ1Aylg-RSK6s4MaGJtnzz9ILzC9k&e=> CA will obviously have a hard time monitoring and enforcing though, under the current traditional framework due to technical barriers (e.g. encryption) and also due to jurisdictional challenges. So the other thing that CA really needs to do once the rules are set is to consider blocking non-compliant foreign apps completely at ISP level (especially now that political temperatures are cool and people and thinking clearly). Lets have local startups filling any gaps with copycat apps China-style. To be clear, I support free speech and privacy. But I also support peace, stability, safe neighbourhoods, democracy, sovereignty and economic predictability! A delicate balance is needed to maximise the rights of law abiding citizens while minimising the ability of those with evil intent to exploit basic rights in order to harm the innocent. Good day. Patrick. On Thursday, November 1, 2018, 11:00:44 PM GMT+3, Grace Githaiga via kictanet <kictanet@lists.kictanet.or.ke<mailto:kictanet@lists.kictanet.or.ke><mailto:kictanet@lists.kictanet.or.ke>> wrote: Kenya is considering regulating online services such as WhatsApp and Skype in a radical move that could force the internet-based service providers to share data with the government. The Communications Authority of Kenya (CA) is in search of a consultant to study and determine how the so-called over-the-top services (OTTS) operated by groups such as Facebook, which runs WhatsApp, and Skype owner Microsoft, could be regulated. 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Whatsapp is not monetised and does not derive any revenue from anywhere yet (this will change next year). This should have no bearing at all on whether Whatsapp should be taxed or not. It is a billion dollar multinational company operating on a non-traditional business model. This means that it is our tax regulations which need to be *modernized* to rope in 21st century global business models that add a local cost burden on the government (e.g. increasing costs of security, turning kids into narcissistic screen zombies - with resulting impact on learning and metal health etc) yet do not contribute to the local kitty - which is unfair considering that they are *billion dollar* companies.  To put it differently, any shilling that Government spends to mitigate the risks of fake news in whatsapp or Facebook (e.g. buying ads to push correct position) is a subsidy paid to Facebook and Whatsapp. This is money that could have gone to health sector to buy medicine, sanitation for clean water or agriculture for food security. Instead it goes to fix a problem created by an entity that has net negative value to the economy. Not all innovation is good or beneficial! How to tax Silicon valley business models: Use the same metrics investors use:1. Estimated number of users /  downloads2. Risk / benefit factor (e.g. security risks or impact on jobs/wages)3. Valuation (funds raised) Silicon valley companies are designed to make losses for decades even as they move massive amounts of money (literally avoiding taxes by exploiting obsolete legislation). The real business they are in is the fundraising business but that is under the tax radar. Signing off. Will check back later for updates. Patrick On Tuesday, November 6, 2018, 2:45:18 PM GMT+3, Ebele Okobi via kictanet <kictanet@lists.kictanet.or.ke> wrote: This is a fascinating and very timely conversation. As I’m sure all can imagine, I have many thoughts. 😁I do have a question, first-how much revenue does WhatsApp derive from Kenya? On Nov 6, 2018, at 7:45 AM, evelyne wanjiku via kictanet <kictanet@lists.kictanet.or.ke> wrote: Dear All, In suppport of Mr. Patrick Mainas Maina's input. The government needs to consider taxing the platforms. This is because they make money from us trade in our data and the revenue genereted benefits their countries and not ours given that they do not pay taxes here. This has been considered in Europe. In africa however, no country can apply this taxes on its own due to our 'economically colonised' position our countries find ourselves in. This means that the easiest option for our government becomes the easy route which is taxing the end user. This is counterproductive especially for those who use social media for productive activities. Therefore only a united african front would be succesful in getting these giants to pay up and keep our governments from considering taxing citizens. It is also important to consider that calls made on whatsapp, skype,viber cost less. This means that there is revenue reduction for the companies providing voice services. Considering that these companies are locally based and pay taxes to our government, why should their revenue be reduced by services that do not pay taxes to us? I suppose this is the logic used by countries like the UAE that block the use of whatsapp to make calls whithin their borders.  As for the ability of whatsapp to cause chaos, this is true and has been proven and whatsapp itself has acknowlegded this fact in countries like India and Pakistan. These are countries where fake news and inflammatory messages delivered mainly through whatsapp have led to chaos that have led to deaths of many people.  Whatsapp has responded by putting in measures to ensure that such spread of hate news can be controlled from their end. Whatsapp also remains open open to suggestions as to how this can be contolled and is actively leading research in this area. The question therefore should be, should we leave Whatsapp to be in charge of what is transfered on their platform and the consequences that follow?  Should government have a role in monitoring how whatsapp is being used for harmful activities. Overall what is the role of government and the various platforms in ensuring this platform and others are used responsibly? Good day to all On Tuesday, November 6, 2018, 3:44:22 AM GMT+3, Francis Monyango via kictanet <kictanet@lists.kictanet.or.ke> wrote: Morning Mr Patrick Maina, You mention how messaging apps facilitate fake news, crime and other things. You also lay peace,development on a scale versus human rights such as free speech and privacy. Sir, it is good to be objective and factual. Last year Kenya had 10 months of hot politics. Research shows that the Kenyan authorities did not attempt to control, disrupt or shutdown the internet. Hence this tired line of the country going into flames because of the internet (messaging apps) doesn't hold any weight. The number of Kenyan users of these messaging apps and other factors such as social class of users, bots affect the impact of the internet in democratic transitions. The broadcast media shut down in January should tell which communication medium has more impact on the Kenyan society. 😉 I believe your intention was to state why companies that offer over the top services should pay taxes here. That is a different argument all together with a different set of facts unless you are advocating for a blanket over the top tax to be paid by users to avoid 'spread of gossip and lies' just like in Uganda. On Fri, 2 Nov 2018, 13:26 Patrick A. M. Maina via kictanet, <kictanet@lists.kictanet.or.ke> wrote: These messaging apps facilitate fake news, crime, foreign meddling (to subvert democracy), brainwashing and hate speech on a massive scale. We know this for a fact.  So as citizens and stakeholders in our country, we need to ask: what do we value more, is it things that improve peace, stability, economic development and democracy, OR, is it some utopian, unbounded notion of free speech and privacy that is disconnected from our contextual reality (e.g. protects criminals, malicious defamers and violence mongers in equal proportion as law abiding citizens)? The companies running these uncontrolled messaging platforms will not be impacted if our country goes up in flames. They cost governments tons of money in maintaining internal security (especially during democratic transitions - sometimes to existential levels) yet they don't pay any taxes... and mark you, they are *billion dollar* companies! This also means that funds that ought to have bought, say, medicine to save lives gets diverted to fix an *imported problem* with no path to holding the parent company accountable for damage caused. Gok needs to modernize our tax laws, which currently are based on the traditional "for profit" enterprise model and thus out of touch with Silicon Valley's "make losses by design" model. The basic assumption that entrepreneurship is a profit oriented endeavour does not hold for Silicon Valley VC subsidized companies. They are designed to operate as loss makers for decades (but still move *massive* amounts of financial resources at massive scale). This has the technical effect of *tax avoidance* because massive profits *are* still being made by the offshore VCs - which denies governments billions in taxes (despite imposing local burdens as illustrated above).  A smart government would create modernized laws to tax VC funded Silicon Valley companies e.g. on the basis of *funding rounds* and *valuations* because this is their *real* business i.e. its how the investors intend to make money from day one - and the primary reason they push for perpetual losses! There should also be a turnover tax and VAT on online revenue earned in Kenya by foreign billion dollar internet companies (e.g. advertisement revenue and appstore revenue), to level the tax playing field for local businesses. Similar to what other countries like the UK are working on:  https://www.wired.co.uk/article/facebook-uk-tax-bill CA will obviously have a hard time monitoring and enforcing though, under the current traditional framework due to technical barriers (e.g. encryption) and also due to jurisdictional challenges.  So the other thing that CA really needs to do once the rules are set is to consider blocking non-compliant foreign apps completely at ISP level (especially now that political temperatures are cool and people and thinking clearly). Lets have local startups filling any gaps with copycat apps China-style.  To be clear, I support free speech and privacy. But I also support peace, stability, safe neighbourhoods, democracy, sovereignty and economic predictability! A delicate balance is needed to maximise the rights of law abiding citizens while minimising the ability of those with evil intent to exploit basic rights in order to harm the innocent. Good day.Patrick. On Thursday, November 1, 2018, 11:00:44 PM GMT+3, Grace Githaiga via kictanet <kictanet@lists.kictanet.or.ke> wrote: Kenya is considering regulating online services such as WhatsApp and Skype in a radical move that could force the internet-based service providers to share data with the government. The Communications Authority of Kenya (CA) is in search of a consultant to study and determine how the so-called over-the-top services (OTTS) operated by groups such as Facebook, which runs WhatsApp, and Skype owner Microsoft, could be regulated. Read on:https://www.nation.co.ke/business/Telcos-regulator-seeks-to-monitor-WhatsApp... Best regards Githaiga, Grace Co-Convenor Kenya ICT Action Network (KICTANet) Twitter:@ggithaiga Tel: 254722701495 Skype: gracegithaiga Alternate email: ggithaiga@hotmail.com Linkedin: https://www.linkedin.com/in/gracegithaiga www.kictanet.or.ke "Change only happens when ordinary people get involved, get engaged and come together to demand it. I am asking you to believe. Not in my ability to bring about change – but in yours"---Barrack Obama. _______________________________________________ kictanet mailing list kictanet@lists.kictanet.or.ke https://lists.kictanet.or.ke/mailman/listinfo/kictanet Twitter: http://twitter.com/kictanet Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/KICTANet/ Domain Registration sponsored by www.eacdirectory.co.ke Unsubscribe or change your options at https://lists.kictanet.or.ke/mailman/options/kictanet/pmaina2000%40yahoo.com The Kenya ICT Action Network (KICTANet) is a multi-stakeholder platform for people and institutions interested and involved in ICT policy and regulation. The network aims to act as a catalyst for reform in the ICT sector in support of the national aim of ICT enabled growth and development. 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KICTANetiquette : Adhere to the same standards of acceptable behaviors online that you follow in real life: respect people's times and bandwidth, share knowledge, don't flame or abuse or personalize, respect privacy, do not spam, do not market your wares or qualifications. _______________________________________________ kictanet mailing list kictanet@lists.kictanet.or.ke https://lists.kictanet.or.ke/mailman/listinfo/kictanet Twitter: http://twitter.com/kictanet Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/KICTANet/ Domain Registration sponsored by www.eacdirectory.co.ke Unsubscribe or change your options at https://lists.kictanet.or.ke/mailman/options/kictanet/ewanjiku2005%40yahoo.c... The Kenya ICT Action Network (KICTANet) is a multi-stakeholder platform for people and institutions interested and involved in ICT policy and regulation. The network aims to act as a catalyst for reform in the ICT sector in support of the national aim of ICT enabled growth and development. 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The network aims to act as a catalyst for reform in the ICT sector in support of the national aim of ICT enabled growth and development. KICTANetiquette : Adhere to the same standards of acceptable behaviors online that you follow in real life: respect people's times and bandwidth, share knowledge, don't flame or abuse or personalize, respect privacy, do not spam, do not market your wares or qualifications. _______________________________________________ kictanet mailing list kictanet@lists.kictanet.or.ke https://lists.kictanet.or.ke/mailman/listinfo/kictanet Twitter: http://twitter.com/kictanet Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/KICTANet/ Domain Registration sponsored by www.eacdirectory.co.ke Unsubscribe or change your options at https://lists.kictanet.or.ke/mailman/options/kictanet/pmaina2000%40yahoo.com The Kenya ICT Action Network (KICTANet) is a multi-stakeholder platform for people and institutions interested and involved in ICT policy and regulation. The network aims to act as a catalyst for reform in the ICT sector in support of the national aim of ICT enabled growth and development. KICTANetiquette : Adhere to the same standards of acceptable behaviors online that you follow in real life: respect people's times and bandwidth, share knowledge, don't flame or abuse or personalize, respect privacy, do not spam, do not market your wares or qualifications.

If your model is not revenue based, then what you are talking about is not a tax, it’s a fine. I’m curious as to what data you are using to determine that online services are “net negative”? Is this your assessment for Kenya specifically, or is your contention that globally, all online services provide net negative value to the world? There are multiple studies on the economic and social benefit of online services, so I am quite interested in learning of those which substantiate the net negative claim. Also, is this specific to Facebook products, or all online services, including those created by Kenyans? And would this tax regime be a global tax-in other words, should it also apply to Kenyan companies operating globally? For example, for those on this list with Kenyan companies offering online services, should this tax regime apply to them in Kenya? Should, for ex., Uganda apply a similar regime for Kenyan companies offering online services there? In terms of the metrics you propose-Facebook is a public company, as are many companies offering online services. What is the relevance of funds raised in this context? In addition-valuation for a public company is a completely different metric than funds raised-curious as to how this would be made predictable, given that a good environment for economic growth depends to a great extent on a rationalized policy and regulatory environment? As for the security issues-i have acknowledged previously the challenges and there, and there is excellent opportunity for collective thinking on how to deal with platforms that are a mirror of the divisions and risks in societies (which we are doing!) but nothing recommended below addresses or mitigates any of those risks. I am mindful that the most violent periods politically in Kenya predated Facebook and WhatsApp, so the notion that these platforms cause violence, or that taxing them would remove security risk is unsupported by any data whatsoever. On Nov 6, 2018, at 12:12 PM, Patrick A. M. Maina <pmaina2000@yahoo.com<mailto:pmaina2000@yahoo.com>> wrote: Whatsapp is not monetised and does not derive any revenue from anywhere yet (this will change next year). This should have no bearing at all on whether Whatsapp should be taxed or not. It is a billion dollar multinational company operating on a non-traditional business model. This means that it is our tax regulations which need to be *modernized* to rope in 21st century global business models that add a local cost burden on the government (e.g. increasing costs of security, turning kids into narcissistic screen zombies - with resulting impact on learning and metal health etc) yet do not contribute to the local kitty - which is unfair considering that they are *billion dollar* companies. To put it differently, any shilling that Government spends to mitigate the risks of fake news in whatsapp or Facebook (e.g. buying ads to push correct position) is a subsidy paid to Facebook and Whatsapp. This is money that could have gone to health sector to buy medicine, sanitation for clean water or agriculture for food security. Instead it goes to fix a problem created by an entity that has net negative value to the economy. Not all innovation is good or beneficial! How to tax Silicon valley business models: Use the same metrics investors use: 1. Estimated number of users / downloads 2. Risk / benefit factor (e.g. security risks or impact on jobs/wages) 3. Valuation (funds raised) Silicon valley companies are designed to make losses for decades even as they move massive amounts of money (literally avoiding taxes by exploiting obsolete legislation). The real business they are in is the fundraising business but that is under the tax radar. Signing off. Will check back later for updates. Patrick On Tuesday, November 6, 2018, 2:45:18 PM GMT+3, Ebele Okobi via kictanet <kictanet@lists.kictanet.or.ke<mailto:kictanet@lists.kictanet.or.ke>> wrote: This is a fascinating and very timely conversation. As I’m sure all can imagine, I have many thoughts. 😁 I do have a question, first-how much revenue does WhatsApp derive from Kenya? On Nov 6, 2018, at 7:45 AM, evelyne wanjiku via kictanet <kictanet@lists.kictanet.or.ke<mailto:kictanet@lists.kictanet.or.ke>> wrote: Dear All, In suppport of Mr. Patrick Mainas Maina's input. The government needs to consider taxing the platforms. This is because they make money from us trade in our data and the revenue genereted benefits their countries and not ours given that they do not pay taxes here. This has been considered in Europe. In africa however, no country can apply this taxes on its own due to our 'economically colonised' position our countries find ourselves in. This means that the easiest option for our government becomes the easy route which is taxing the end user. This is counterproductive especially for those who use social media for productive activities. Therefore only a united african front would be succesful in getting these giants to pay up and keep our governments from considering taxing citizens. It is also important to consider that calls made on whatsapp, skype,viber cost less. This means that there is revenue reduction for the companies providing voice services. Considering that these companies are locally based and pay taxes to our government, why should their revenue be reduced by services that do not pay taxes to us? I suppose this is the logic used by countries like the UAE that block the use of whatsapp to make calls whithin their borders. As for the ability of whatsapp to cause chaos, this is true and has been proven and whatsapp itself has acknowlegded this fact in countries like India and Pakistan. These are countries where fake news and inflammatory messages delivered mainly through whatsapp have led to chaos that have led to deaths of many people. Whatsapp has responded by putting in measures to ensure that such spread of hate news can be controlled from their end. Whatsapp also remains open open to suggestions as to how this can be contolled and is actively leading research in this area. The question therefore should be, should we leave Whatsapp to be in charge of what is transfered on their platform and the consequences that follow? Should government have a role in monitoring how whatsapp is being used for harmful activities. Overall what is the role of government and the various platforms in ensuring this platform and others are used responsibly? Good day to all On Tuesday, November 6, 2018, 3:44:22 AM GMT+3, Francis Monyango via kictanet <kictanet@lists.kictanet.or.ke<mailto:kictanet@lists.kictanet.or.ke>> wrote: Morning Mr Patrick Maina, You mention how messaging apps facilitate fake news, crime and other things. You also lay peace,development on a scale versus human rights such as free speech and privacy. Sir, it is good to be objective and factual. Last year Kenya had 10 months of hot politics. Research shows that the Kenyan authorities did not attempt to control, disrupt or shutdown the internet. Hence this tired line of the country going into flames because of the internet (messaging apps) doesn't hold any weight. The number of Kenyan users of these messaging apps and other factors such as social class of users, bots affect the impact of the internet in democratic transitions. The broadcast media shut down in January should tell which communication medium has more impact on the Kenyan society. 😉 I believe your intention was to state why companies that offer over the top services should pay taxes here. That is a different argument all together with a different set of facts unless you are advocating for a blanket over the top tax to be paid by users to avoid 'spread of gossip and lies' just like in Uganda. On Fri, 2 Nov 2018, 13:26 Patrick A. M. Maina via kictanet, <kictanet@lists.kictanet.or.ke<mailto:kictanet@lists.kictanet.or.ke>> wrote: These messaging apps facilitate fake news, crime, foreign meddling (to subvert democracy), brainwashing and hate speech on a massive scale. We know this for a fact. So as citizens and stakeholders in our country, we need to ask: what do we value more, is it things that improve peace, stability, economic development and democracy, OR, is it some utopian, unbounded notion of free speech and privacy that is disconnected from our contextual reality (e.g. protects criminals, malicious defamers and violence mongers in equal proportion as law abiding citizens)? The companies running these uncontrolled messaging platforms will not be impacted if our country goes up in flames. They cost governments tons of money in maintaining internal security (especially during democratic transitions - sometimes to existential levels) yet they don't pay any taxes... and mark you, they are *billion dollar* companies! This also means that funds that ought to have bought, say, medicine to save lives gets diverted to fix an *imported problem* with no path to holding the parent company accountable for damage caused. Gok needs to modernize our tax laws, which currently are based on the traditional "for profit" enterprise model and thus out of touch with Silicon Valley's "make losses by design" model. The basic assumption that entrepreneurship is a profit oriented endeavour does not hold for Silicon Valley VC subsidized companies. They are designed to operate as loss makers for decades (but still move *massive* amounts of financial resources at massive scale). This has the technical effect of *tax avoidance* because massive profits *are* still being made by the offshore VCs - which denies governments billions in taxes (despite imposing local burdens as illustrated above). A smart government would create modernized laws to tax VC funded Silicon Valley companies e.g. on the basis of *funding rounds* and *valuations* because this is their *real* business i.e. its how the investors intend to make money from day one - and the primary reason they push for perpetual losses! There should also be a turnover tax and VAT on online revenue earned in Kenya by foreign billion dollar internet companies (e.g. advertisement revenue and appstore revenue), to level the tax playing field for local businesses. Similar to what other countries like the UK are working on: https://www.wired.co.uk/article/facebook-uk-tax-bill<https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=https-3A__www.wired.co.uk_article_facebook-2Duk-2Dtax-2Dbill&d=DwMFaQ&c=5VD0RTtNlTh3ycd41b3MUw&r=ArvepG4_wcNu_X9xi3nb_Xa9WsGLVfmK6mwPdVONOTE&m=t74BOKebo761FiLlF3RuH-SUnKGeYceUv24Gp4-Sj5E&s=JpThF3QS5XBibcjJ1Aylg-RSK6s4MaGJtnzz9ILzC9k&e=> CA will obviously have a hard time monitoring and enforcing though, under the current traditional framework due to technical barriers (e.g. encryption) and also due to jurisdictional challenges. So the other thing that CA really needs to do once the rules are set is to consider blocking non-compliant foreign apps completely at ISP level (especially now that political temperatures are cool and people and thinking clearly). Lets have local startups filling any gaps with copycat apps China-style. To be clear, I support free speech and privacy. But I also support peace, stability, safe neighbourhoods, democracy, sovereignty and economic predictability! A delicate balance is needed to maximise the rights of law abiding citizens while minimising the ability of those with evil intent to exploit basic rights in order to harm the innocent. Good day. Patrick. On Thursday, November 1, 2018, 11:00:44 PM GMT+3, Grace Githaiga via kictanet <kictanet@lists.kictanet.or.ke<mailto:kictanet@lists.kictanet.or.ke>> wrote: Kenya is considering regulating online services such as WhatsApp and Skype in a radical move that could force the internet-based service providers to share data with the government. The Communications Authority of Kenya (CA) is in search of a consultant to study and determine how the so-called over-the-top services (OTTS) operated by groups such as Facebook, which runs WhatsApp, and Skype owner Microsoft, could be regulated. 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Patrick: Your argument is moot.. A very simple analogy when email was introduced and now used by the entire world - are you taxing email platforms..So why hold the same argument for these OTT applications - why pay for services that the government never invented in the first place.. The basic premise is that without technology disruption our society will never advance and governments are the worst culprits of such hindrance to society’s advancement in this world.. Governments love to control and that fact alone is a motivator to circumvent such an ecosystem..The premise of human advancement is adapting to new revolutions and disruptions.. Governments should not hinder progress and when it comes to collecting revenues from so called innovators and disruptors then bring such companies to Kenya to set up base and provide them with incentives and ask them to employ Kenyan citizens etc - drive such an encouragement with finding suitable models for advancement of societies.. Taxation is just a cheap way of protectionism - it does not work..It impedes human progress.. Cheers! Bhaves

On 6 Nov 2018, at 5:18 PM, Patrick A. M. Maina via kictanet <kictanet@lists.kictanet.or.ke> wrote:

OK I'm back (briefly). Thanks for your points Mr. Okobi,

Actually the only difference between "taxes" and "fines" is the definition. Taxes can be based on anything - not just earnings. Example: What is VAT? A tax on consumption! Why should you pay extra tax on consumption after you have already been taxed on income? Does that make sense? Is that not fining or penalizing people for enjoying their *already taxed* money?

Another example: why tax food or books? These are essential must-have items. I should not be taxed to eat or educate my kids. Isn't that not a form of "existence tax"? What about tax on sanitary pads? Is that not discriminating against girls (they end up paying more taxes than boys because its a gender-specific essential purchase). Why tax people for keeping clean babies (diaper tax)? Why tax people for going to work (fuel VAT)? etc etc. I'd love to hear your views about the rationality of these taxes.

Oh, btw, even the fines one pays in court are a form of compliance/obedience tax. Those who follow the rules pay less taxes (thus encouraging compliance). Anyway, lets not get stuck on definitions but I'd urge you to read some good books on taxation & economics to get a grip of this.

Okay, who has said anything about taxing "online services" or "all online services"? That is a strawman argument that diverts attention from the real issue. I am only talking about online apps with high potential for *abuse at scale*, which imposes a heavy cost burden on Governments and/or society (e.g. Facebook, Whatsapp, Telegram etc). These apps (and their problematic architectures) are well known and Governments worldwide are scrambling to find solutions to the problems that they have enabled/amplified by design.

Why should Kenyan taxpayers *subsidize* the fixing of costly problems caused/facilitated/amplified by these foreign billion dollar apps who don't contribute their share of taxes locally or accept their share of responsibility? This is a form of reverse taxation where our Government is effectively "paying" taxes to Facebook and Whatsapp!

Tobacco analogy might help elucidate the issue: When tax funds are spent on lung cancer treatment for cigarette smokers, isn't that a subsidy paid by taxpayers - including non-smokers, to Tobacco companies? Looks like a no-brainer nowadays but it took a while (and similar debates) for Tobacco companies to accept because it takes decades for lung cancer to form. Many even paid for fake scientific studies to disprove claims that Tobacco smoking is harmful. Very similar to what some notorious data aggregating multinationals have been accused of doing.

Glad that you accept that there is indeed a cost burden for Government (and society) from fake news that is amplified by these social media platforms like Facebook and whatsapp. At least we have a common understanding that there is a real problem.

Is there data? Yes, the data does exist which directly associates these apps (e.g. Whatsapp & facebook) to crime, addiction, subversion, mob violence and deaths. See my earlier post on this with several links.

Why are we so attached to these apps? How many jobs do they create here? How do we benefit from them such that they are not irreplaceable by local clones? Perhaps that is the question that we should be asking.

The 21st Century tax innovations that I am proposing may be difficult to grasp because they does not yet exist and require a non-traditional view of how businesses operate (especially those based on the Silicon Valley VC and Data Mining model). But that is where the world is heading.

Citizens data is a national product. Should off-shore data aggregation / mining multinationals get it for free? Should they be allowed to manipulate/brainwash us or our children - in order to monetize the ensuing engagement - and then let us bear whatever consequences that ensue downstream? Should they be allowed to facilitate the spread of disinformation by design - even with the risk of causing harm or deaths to innocent victims? Should they impose new/heavier cost burdens on governments. Should they be allowed to facilitate and protect criminals by design?

These are 21st century issues that didn't even exist 10 years ago. They require 21st century thinking and solutions.

Cheers & have a great evening! Patrick.

On Tuesday, November 6, 2018, 3:47:48 PM GMT+3, Ebele Okobi <ebeleokobi@fb.com> wrote:

If your model is not revenue based, then what you are talking about is not a tax, it’s a fine.

I’m curious as to what data you are using to determine that online services are “net negative”? Is this your assessment for Kenya specifically, or is your contention that globally, all online services provide net negative value to the world? There are multiple studies on the economic and social benefit of online services, so I am quite interested in learning of those which substantiate the net negative claim.

Also, is this specific to Facebook products, or all online services, including those created by Kenyans?

And would this tax regime be a global tax-in other words, should it also apply to Kenyan companies operating globally? For example, for those on this list with Kenyan companies offering online services, should this tax regime apply to them in Kenya? Should, for ex., Uganda apply a similar regime for Kenyan companies offering online services there?

In terms of the metrics you propose-Facebook is a public company, as are many companies offering online services. What is the relevance of funds raised in this context? In addition-valuation for a public company is a completely different metric than funds raised-curious as to how this would be made predictable, given that a good environment for economic growth depends to a great extent on a rationalized policy and regulatory environment?

As for the security issues-i have acknowledged previously the challenges and there, and there is excellent opportunity for collective thinking on how to deal with platforms that are a mirror of the divisions and risks in societies (which we are doing!) but nothing recommended below addresses or mitigates any of those risks. I am mindful that the most violent periods politically in Kenya predated Facebook and WhatsApp, so the notion that these platforms cause violence, or that taxing them would remove security risk is unsupported by any data whatsoever.

On Nov 6, 2018, at 12:12 PM, Patrick A. M. Maina <pmaina2000@yahoo.com> wrote:

...

Whatsapp is not monetised and does not derive any revenue from anywhere yet (this will change next year). This should have no bearing at all on whether Whatsapp should be taxed or not. It is a billion dollar multinational company operating on a non-traditional business model. This means that it is our tax regulations which need to be *modernized* to rope in 21st century global business models that add a local cost burden on the government (e.g. increasing costs of security, turning kids into narcissistic screen zombies - with resulting impact on learning and metal health etc) yet do not contribute to the local kitty - which is unfair considering that they are *billion dollar* companies.

To put it differently, any shilling that Government spends to mitigate the risks of fake news in whatsapp or Facebook (e.g. buying ads to push correct position) is a subsidy paid to Facebook and Whatsapp. This is money that could have gone to health sector to buy medicine, sanitation for clean water or agriculture for food security. Instead it goes to fix a problem created by an entity that has net negative value to the economy. Not all innovation is good or beneficial!

How to tax Silicon valley business models: Use the same metrics investors use: 1. Estimated number of users / downloads 2. Risk / benefit factor (e.g. security risks or impact on jobs/wages) 3. Valuation (funds raised)

Silicon valley companies are designed to make losses for decades even as they move massive amounts of money (literally avoiding taxes by exploiting obsolete legislation). The real business they are in is the fundraising business but that is under the tax radar.

Signing off. Will check back later for updates.

Patrick

On Tuesday, November 6, 2018, 2:45:18 PM GMT+3, Ebele Okobi via kictanet <kictanet@lists.kictanet.or.ke> wrote:

This is a fascinating and very timely conversation. As I’m sure all can imagine, I have many thoughts. 😁 I do have a question, first-how much revenue does WhatsApp derive from Kenya?

On Nov 6, 2018, at 7:45 AM, evelyne wanjiku via kictanet <kictanet@lists.kictanet.or.ke> wrote:

...

Dear All,

In suppport of Mr. Patrick Mainas Maina's input.

The government needs to consider taxing the platforms. This is because they make money from us trade in our data and the revenue genereted benefits their countries and not ours given that they do not pay taxes here. This has been considered in Europe. In africa however, no country can apply this taxes on its own due to our 'economically colonised' position our countries find ourselves in. This means that the easiest option for our government becomes the easy route which is taxing the end user. This is counterproductive especially for those who use social media for productive activities. Therefore only a united african front would be succesful in getting these giants to pay up and keep our governments from considering taxing citizens. It is also important to consider that calls made on whatsapp, skype,viber cost less. This means that there is revenue reduction for the companies providing voice services. Considering that these companies are locally based and pay taxes to our government, why should their revenue be reduced by services that do not pay taxes to us? I suppose this is the logic used by countries like the UAE that block the use of whatsapp to make calls whithin their borders.

As for the ability of whatsapp to cause chaos, this is true and has been proven and whatsapp itself has acknowlegded this fact in countries like India and Pakistan. These are countries where fake news and inflammatory messages delivered mainly through whatsapp have led to chaos that have led to deaths of many people. Whatsapp has responded by putting in measures to ensure that such spread of hate news can be controlled from their end. Whatsapp also remains open open to suggestions as to how this can be contolled and is actively leading research in this area.

The question therefore should be, should we leave Whatsapp to be in charge of what is transfered on their platform and the consequences that follow? Should government have a role in monitoring how whatsapp is being used for harmful activities. Overall what is the role of government and the various platforms in ensuring this platform and others are used responsibly?

Good day to all

On Tuesday, November 6, 2018, 3:44:22 AM GMT+3, Francis Monyango via kictanet <kictanet@lists.kictanet.or.ke> wrote:

Morning Mr Patrick Maina,

You mention how messaging apps facilitate fake news, crime and other things. You also lay peace,development on a scale versus human rights such as free speech and privacy. Sir, it is good to be objective and factual. Last year Kenya had 10 months of hot politics. Research shows that the Kenyan authorities did not attempt to control, disrupt or shutdown the internet. Hence this tired line of the country going into flames because of the internet (messaging apps) doesn't hold any weight. The number of Kenyan users of these messaging apps and other factors such as social class of users, bots affect the impact of the internet in democratic transitions. The broadcast media shut down in January should tell which communication medium has more impact on the Kenyan society. 😉

I believe your intention was to state why companies that offer over the top services should pay taxes here. That is a different argument all together with a different set of facts unless you are advocating for a blanket over the top tax to be paid by users to avoid 'spread of gossip and lies' just like in Uganda.

On Fri, 2 Nov 2018, 13:26 Patrick A. M. Maina via kictanet, <kictanet@lists.kictanet.or.ke> wrote: These messaging apps facilitate fake news, crime, foreign meddling (to subvert democracy), brainwashing and hate speech on a massive scale. We know this for a fact.

So as citizens and stakeholders in our country, we need to ask: what do we value more, is it things that improve peace, stability, economic development and democracy, OR, is it some utopian, unbounded notion of free speech and privacy that is disconnected from our contextual reality (e.g. protects criminals, malicious defamers and violence mongers in equal proportion as law abiding citizens)?

The companies running these uncontrolled messaging platforms will not be impacted if our country goes up in flames. They cost governments tons of money in maintaining internal security (especially during democratic transitions - sometimes to existential levels) yet they don't pay any taxes... and mark you, they are *billion dollar* companies! This also means that funds that ought to have bought, say, medicine to save lives gets diverted to fix an *imported problem* with no path to holding the parent company accountable for damage caused.

Gok needs to modernize our tax laws, which currently are based on the traditional "for profit" enterprise model and thus out of touch with Silicon Valley's "make losses by design" model. The basic assumption that entrepreneurship is a profit oriented endeavour does not hold for Silicon Valley VC subsidized companies. They are designed to operate as loss makers for decades (but still move *massive* amounts of financial resources at massive scale). This has the technical effect of *tax avoidance* because massive profits *are* still being made by the offshore VCs - which denies governments billions in taxes (despite imposing local burdens as illustrated above).

A smart government would create modernized laws to tax VC funded Silicon Valley companies e.g. on the basis of *funding rounds* and *valuations* because this is their *real* business i.e. its how the investors intend to make money from day one - and the primary reason they push for perpetual losses!

There should also be a turnover tax and VAT on online revenue earned in Kenya by foreign billion dollar internet companies (e.g. advertisement revenue and appstore revenue), to level the tax playing field for local businesses. Similar to what other countries like the UK are working on:

https://www.wired.co.uk/article/facebook-uk-tax-bill

CA will obviously have a hard time monitoring and enforcing though, under the current traditional framework due to technical barriers (e.g. encryption) and also due to jurisdictional challenges.

So the other thing that CA really needs to do once the rules are set is to consider blocking non-compliant foreign apps completely at ISP level (especially now that political temperatures are cool and people and thinking clearly). Lets have local startups filling any gaps with copycat apps China-style.

To be clear, I support free speech and privacy. But I also support peace, stability, safe neighbourhoods, democracy, sovereignty and economic predictability!

A delicate balance is needed to maximise the rights of law abiding citizens while minimising the ability of those with evil intent to exploit basic rights in order to harm the innocent.

Good day. Patrick.

On Thursday, November 1, 2018, 11:00:44 PM GMT+3, Grace Githaiga via kictanet <kictanet@lists.kictanet.or.ke> wrote:

Kenya is considering regulating online services such as WhatsApp and Skype in a radical move that could force the internet-based service providers to share data with the government.

The Communications Authority of Kenya (CA) is in search of a consultant to study and determine how the so-called over-the-top services (OTTS) operated by groups such as Facebook, which runs WhatsApp, and Skype owner Microsoft, could be regulated.

Read on: https://www.nation.co.ke/business/Telcos-regulator-seeks-to-monitor-WhatsApp...

Best regards

Githaiga, Grace

Co-Convenor Kenya ICT Action Network (KICTANet) Twitter:@ggithaiga Tel: 254722701495 Skype: gracegithaiga Alternate email: ggithaiga@hotmail.com Linkedin: https://www.linkedin.com/in/gracegithaiga www.kictanet.or.ke

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Patrick: This is my personal opinion, so when I am referring to your point being moot it is my own opinion, however it does not mean that my opinion is the only out there, everyone is there contribute. As for answering your questions see below: 1. The scope is social media apps like Facebook, Whatsapp and Telegram that have been associated with facilitating crime or chaos due to the way they have been designed. Are these apps irreplaceable (e.g. by local legally compliant copycats)? Why? Firstly, technology is about evolution and these apps have evolved. It is not the apps that are creating the content, these are platforms where people are free to create the content, however as the apps have become large scale the issues related to facilitate crime or chaos has also evolved, but in the same manner the ecosystem will also thrive to safeguard with new innovations from abuse. The biggest culprits of the abuse is always governments itself. There is something called choice, no one has imposed these apps on anyone, each individual has a right to use them as they deem fit. However, everyone should know the risks, and that comes through education not government control. 2. Do these apps impose a burden on Government when they are abused? Who should pay for that burden? Why? What burden are your referring to, when national security is at stake, there could be case of such instances, however like I have said these apps have been abused by the same governments to control the masses within the ecosystem. There should be mechanisms or safeguards for abuse, however having full control of such apps and denying citizens to use these platforms for dissemination of information should not be constrained. Are we thriving to become a "police" state where every conversation is looked as a threat to governments. 3. Should they cooperate with Gov to eliminate risks of criminal abuse? If not, why not? Like any legal requirement if there is a criminal element to the dissemination of information, then the burden of proof is for the government to furnish the proof for these companies to comply with the law. However, just by saying "this is a threat" to a government, that does not hold water, the state must prove it's argument, otherwise just as well shut the entire ecosystem, and then deal with the masses and the consequences of free speech. 4. When these apps collect data (resource extraction - just like oil/gold extraction) should a country be compensated? If not, why not? The collection of data happens with every software you use, it is a choice a consumer makes for one to use such an app. The better the informed public is about the data, the better choices one makes. In my opinion parts of GDPR are good for privacy for citizens, and maybe those should be adapted locally if done properly, it should not be a copy and paste exercise. 5. When these apps manipulate people psychologically to promote repeated engagement (thereby distracting local human resources from engaging in local economic activity or reducing productivity) should they pay for that engagement? If not why not? Keep in mind user engagement is a billion dollar 21st century resource! Like any business everything is being manipulated. Look at consumer goods companies that sell their products, there is a form of manipulation going on. For example look at the way the food and beverage companies manipulate people to believing their products are good for health etc when in actual fact they are not good for health. Manipulation of the mind for any product or service is the end game for one to be a customer for that particular product or service - everyone has a choice to make. Its all about education.. 6. Should we mortgage our future by allowing irresponsible apps to use advanced psychology to target juveniles and turn them into screen *addicts* and *narcissists*? If yes, how do we gain from that? There is no one mortgaging the future, we all know that there are good and bad with every product and service, millions of people are being abused even by not using these apps, but using physical goods made by consumer companies. The issue is that technology revolution, innovation and disruption will remain no matter how we look at it, there is nothing going to stop that, but like I said everyone needs to play their part in educating the people of the good and evil...Controls don't achieve anything, it just breeds a behaviour of circumvention especially with the younger generation who are growing up in the era of information and technology. I hope my views are accepted, just as a side note, I am not imposing my beliefs on anyone, everyone has a right to choose and decide, I believe in that freedom of choice, I am of less control, but more education. Bhaves Shah Founder-CEO JabJab Group Ltd +254 707 306639 website - www.jabjabgroup.com twitter - https://twitter.com/jabjabgroup facebook - https://www.facebook.com/jabjabgroup/ On Tue, Nov 6, 2018 at 6:16 PM Patrick A. M. Maina <pmaina2000@yahoo.com> wrote:

Thanks for your comment Bhaves,

Firstly an argument can't be moot just because you say so hehe (on a light note). You are not addressing the specific points that I have raised: Can you address them so that the refutation is clear and on point?

1. The scope is social media apps like Facebook, Whatsapp and Telegram that have been associated with facilitating crime or chaos due to the way they have been designed. Are these apps irreplaceable (e.g. by local legally compliant copycats)? Why?

2. Do these apps impose a burden on Government when they are abused? Who should pay for that burden? Why?

3. Should they cooperate with Gov to eliminate risks of criminal abuse? If not, why not?

4. When these apps collect data (resource extraction - just like oil/gold extraction) should a country be compensated? If not, why not?

5. When these apps manipulate people psychologically to promote repeated engagement (thereby distracting local human resources from engaging in local economic activity or reducing productivity) should they pay for that engagement? If not why not? Keep in mind user engagement is a billion dollar 21st century resource!

6. Should we mortgage our future by allowing irresponsible apps to use advanced psychology to target juveniles and turn them into screen *addicts* and *narcissists*? If yes, how do we gain from that?

I'd love to read your specific views on each of these points.

Brgds, Patrick.

On Tuesday, November 6, 2018, 5:44:35 PM GMT+3, Bhaves Shah < bhaves.shah@jabjabgroup.com> wrote:

Patrick:

Your argument is moot..

A very simple analogy when email was introduced and now used by the entire world - are you taxing email platforms..So why hold the same argument for these OTT applications - why pay for services that the government never invented in the first place..

The basic premise is that without technology disruption our society will never advance and governments are the worst culprits of such hindrance to society’s advancement in this world..

Governments love to control and that fact alone is a motivator to circumvent such an ecosystem..The premise of human advancement is adapting to new revolutions and disruptions..

Governments should not hinder progress and when it comes to collecting revenues from so called innovators and disruptors then bring such companies to Kenya to set up base and provide them with incentives and ask them to employ Kenyan citizens etc - drive such an encouragement with finding suitable models for advancement of societies..

Taxation is just a cheap way of protectionism - it does not work..It impedes human progress..

Cheers! Bhaves

On 6 Nov 2018, at 5:18 PM, Patrick A. M. Maina via kictanet < kictanet@lists.kictanet.or.ke> wrote:

OK I'm back (briefly). Thanks for your points Mr. Okobi,

Actually the only difference between "taxes" and "fines" is the definition. Taxes can be based on anything - not just earnings. Example: What is VAT? A tax on consumption! Why should you pay extra tax on consumption after you have already been taxed on income? Does that make sense? Is that not fining or penalizing people for enjoying their *already taxed* money?

Another example: why tax food or books? These are essential must-have items. I should not be taxed to eat or educate my kids. Isn't that not a form of "existence tax"? What about tax on sanitary pads? Is that not discriminating against girls (they end up paying more taxes than boys because its a gender-specific essential purchase). Why tax people for keeping clean babies (diaper tax)? Why tax people for going to work (fuel VAT)? etc etc. I'd love to hear your views about the rationality of these taxes.

Oh, btw, even the fines one pays in court are a form of compliance/obedience tax. Those who follow the rules pay less taxes (thus encouraging compliance). Anyway, lets not get stuck on definitions but I'd urge you to read some good books on taxation & economics to get a grip of this.

Okay, who has said anything about taxing "online services" or "all online services"? That is a strawman argument that diverts attention from the real issue. I am only talking about online apps with high potential for *abuse at scale*, which imposes a heavy cost burden on Governments and/or society (e.g. Facebook, Whatsapp, Telegram etc). These apps (and their problematic architectures) are well known and Governments worldwide are scrambling to find solutions to the problems that they have enabled/amplified by design.

Why should Kenyan taxpayers *subsidize* the fixing of costly problems caused/facilitated/amplified by these foreign billion dollar apps who don't contribute their share of taxes locally or accept their share of responsibility? This is a form of reverse taxation where our Government is effectively "paying" taxes to Facebook and Whatsapp!

Tobacco analogy might help elucidate the issue: When tax funds are spent on lung cancer treatment for cigarette smokers, isn't that a subsidy paid by taxpayers - including non-smokers, to Tobacco companies? Looks like a no-brainer nowadays but it took a while (and similar debates) for Tobacco companies to accept because it takes decades for lung cancer to form. Many even paid for fake scientific studies to disprove claims that Tobacco smoking is harmful. Very similar to what some notorious data aggregating multinationals have been accused of doing.

Glad that you accept that there is indeed a cost burden for Government (and society) from fake news that is amplified by these social media platforms like Facebook and whatsapp. At least we have a common understanding that there is a real problem.

Is there data? Yes, the data does exist which directly associates these apps (e.g. Whatsapp & facebook) to crime, addiction, subversion, mob violence and deaths. See my earlier post on this with several links.

Why are we so attached to these apps? How many jobs do they create here? How do we benefit from them such that they are not irreplaceable by local clones? Perhaps that is the question that we should be asking.

The 21st Century tax innovations that I am proposing may be difficult to grasp because they does not yet exist and require a non-traditional view of how businesses operate (especially those based on the Silicon Valley VC and Data Mining model). But that is where the world is heading.

Citizens data is a national product. Should off-shore data aggregation / mining multinationals get it for free? Should they be allowed to manipulate/brainwash us or our children - in order to monetize the ensuing engagement - and then let us bear whatever consequences that ensue downstream? Should they be allowed to facilitate the spread of disinformation by design - even with the risk of causing harm or deaths to innocent victims? Should they impose new/heavier cost burdens on governments. Should they be allowed to facilitate and protect criminals by design?

These are 21st century issues that didn't even exist 10 years ago. They require 21st century thinking and solutions.

Cheers & have a great evening! Patrick.

On Tuesday, November 6, 2018, 3:47:48 PM GMT+3, Ebele Okobi < ebeleokobi@fb.com> wrote:

If your model is not revenue based, then what you are talking about is not a tax, it’s a fine.

I’m curious as to what data you are using to determine that online services are “net negative”? Is this your assessment for Kenya specifically, or is your contention that globally, all online services provide net negative value to the world? There are multiple studies on the economic and social benefit of online services, so I am quite interested in learning of those which substantiate the net negative claim.

Also, is this specific to Facebook products, or all online services, including those created by Kenyans?

And would this tax regime be a global tax-in other words, should it also apply to Kenyan companies operating globally? For example, for those on this list with Kenyan companies offering online services, should this tax regime apply to them in Kenya? Should, for ex., Uganda apply a similar regime for Kenyan companies offering online services there?

In terms of the metrics you propose-Facebook is a public company, as are many companies offering online services. What is the relevance of funds raised in this context? In addition-valuation for a public company is a completely different metric than funds raised-curious as to how this would be made predictable, given that a good environment for economic growth depends to a great extent on a rationalized policy and regulatory environment?

As for the security issues-i have acknowledged previously the challenges and there, and there is excellent opportunity for collective thinking on how to deal with platforms that are a mirror of the divisions and risks in societies (which we are doing!) but nothing recommended below addresses or mitigates any of those risks. I am mindful that the most violent periods politically in Kenya predated Facebook and WhatsApp, so the notion that these platforms cause violence, or that taxing them would remove security risk is unsupported by any data whatsoever.

On Nov 6, 2018, at 12:12 PM, Patrick A. M. Maina <pmaina2000@yahoo.com> wrote:

Whatsapp is not monetised and does not derive any revenue from anywhere yet (this will change next year). This should have no bearing at all on whether Whatsapp should be taxed or not. It is a billion dollar multinational company operating on a non-traditional business model. This means that it is our tax regulations which need to be *modernized* to rope in 21st century global business models that add a local cost burden on the government (e.g. increasing costs of security, turning kids into narcissistic screen zombies - with resulting impact on learning and metal health etc) yet do not contribute to the local kitty - which is unfair considering that they are *billion dollar* companies.

To put it differently, any shilling that Government spends to mitigate the risks of fake news in whatsapp or Facebook (e.g. buying ads to push correct position) is a subsidy paid to Facebook and Whatsapp. This is money that could have gone to health sector to buy medicine, sanitation for clean water or agriculture for food security. Instead it goes to fix a problem created by an entity that has net negative value to the economy. Not all innovation is good or beneficial!

How to tax Silicon valley business models: Use the same metrics investors use: 1. Estimated number of users / downloads 2. Risk / benefit factor (e.g. security risks or impact on jobs/wages) 3. Valuation (funds raised)

Silicon valley companies are designed to make losses for decades even as they move massive amounts of money (literally avoiding taxes by exploiting obsolete legislation). The real business they are in is the fundraising business but that is under the tax radar.

Signing off. Will check back later for updates.

Patrick

On Tuesday, November 6, 2018, 2:45:18 PM GMT+3, Ebele Okobi via kictanet < kictanet@lists.kictanet.or.ke> wrote:

This is a fascinating and very timely conversation. As I’m sure all can imagine, I have many thoughts. 😁 I do have a question, first-how much revenue does WhatsApp derive from Kenya?

On Nov 6, 2018, at 7:45 AM, evelyne wanjiku via kictanet < kictanet@lists.kictanet.or.ke> wrote:

Dear All,

In suppport of Mr. Patrick Mainas Maina's input.

The government needs to consider taxing the platforms. This is because they make money from us trade in our data and the revenue genereted benefits their countries and not ours given that they do not pay taxes here. This has been considered in Europe. In africa however, no country can apply this taxes on its own due to our 'economically colonised' position our countries find ourselves in. This means that the easiest option for our government becomes the easy route which is taxing the end user. This is counterproductive especially for those who use social media for productive activities. Therefore only a united african front would be succesful in getting these giants to pay up and keep our governments from considering taxing citizens. It is also important to consider that calls made on whatsapp, skype,viber cost less. This means that there is revenue reduction for the companies providing voice services. Considering that these companies are locally based and pay taxes to our government, why should their revenue be reduced by services that do not pay taxes to us? I suppose this is the logic used by countries like the UAE that block the use of whatsapp to make calls whithin their borders.

As for the ability of whatsapp to cause chaos, this is true and has been proven and whatsapp itself has acknowlegded this fact in countries like India and Pakistan. These are countries where fake news and inflammatory messages delivered mainly through whatsapp have led to chaos that have led to deaths of many people. Whatsapp has responded by putting in measures to ensure that such spread of hate news can be controlled from their end. Whatsapp also remains open open to suggestions as to how this can be contolled and is actively leading research in this area.

The question therefore should be, should we leave Whatsapp to be in charge of what is transfered on their platform and the consequences that follow? Should government have a role in monitoring how whatsapp is being used for harmful activities. Overall what is the role of government and the various platforms in ensuring this platform and others are used responsibly?

Good day to all

On Tuesday, November 6, 2018, 3:44:22 AM GMT+3, Francis Monyango via kictanet <kictanet@lists.kictanet.or.ke> wrote:

Morning Mr Patrick Maina,

You mention how messaging apps facilitate fake news, crime and other things. You also lay peace,development on a scale versus human rights such as free speech and privacy. Sir, it is good to be objective and factual. Last year Kenya had 10 months of hot politics. Research shows that the Kenyan authorities did not attempt to control, disrupt or shutdown the internet. Hence this tired line of the country going into flames because of the internet (messaging apps) doesn't hold any weight. The number of Kenyan users of these messaging apps and other factors such as social class of users, bots affect the impact of the internet in democratic transitions. The broadcast media shut down in January should tell which communication medium has more impact on the Kenyan society. 😉

I believe your intention was to state why companies that offer over the top services should pay taxes here. That is a different argument all together with a different set of facts unless you are advocating for a blanket over the top tax to be paid by users to avoid 'spread of gossip and lies' just like in Uganda.

On Fri, 2 Nov 2018, 13:26 Patrick A. M. Maina via kictanet, < kictanet@lists.kictanet.or.ke> wrote:

These messaging apps facilitate fake news, crime, foreign meddling (to subvert democracy), brainwashing and hate speech on a massive scale. We know this for a fact.

So as citizens and stakeholders in our country, we need to ask: what do we value more, is it things that improve peace, stability, economic development and democracy, OR, is it some utopian, unbounded notion of free speech and privacy that is disconnected from our contextual reality (e.g. protects criminals, malicious defamers and violence mongers in equal proportion as law abiding citizens)?

The companies running these uncontrolled messaging platforms will not be impacted if our country goes up in flames. They cost governments tons of money in maintaining internal security (especially during democratic transitions - sometimes to existential levels) yet they don't pay any taxes... and mark you, they are *billion dollar* companies! This also means that funds that ought to have bought, say, medicine to save lives gets diverted to fix an *imported problem* with no path to holding the parent company accountable for damage caused.

Gok needs to modernize our tax laws, which currently are based on the traditional "for profit" enterprise model and thus out of touch with Silicon Valley's "make losses by design" model. The basic assumption that entrepreneurship is a profit oriented endeavour does not hold for Silicon Valley VC subsidized companies. They are designed to operate as loss makers for decades (but still move *massive* amounts of financial resources at massive scale). This has the technical effect of *tax avoidance* because massive profits *are* still being made by the offshore VCs - which denies governments billions in taxes (despite imposing local burdens as illustrated above).

A smart government would create modernized laws to tax VC funded Silicon Valley companies e.g. on the basis of *funding rounds* and *valuations* because this is their *real* business i.e. its how the investors intend to make money from day one - and the primary reason they push for perpetual losses!

There should also be a turnover tax and VAT on online revenue earned in Kenya by foreign billion dollar internet companies (e.g. advertisement revenue and appstore revenue), to level the tax playing field for local businesses. Similar to what other countries like the UK are working on:

https://www.wired.co.uk/article/facebook-uk-tax-bill <https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=https-3A__www.wired.co.uk_article_facebook-2Duk-2Dtax-2Dbill&d=DwMFaQ&c=5VD0RTtNlTh3ycd41b3MUw&r=ArvepG4_wcNu_X9xi3nb_Xa9WsGLVfmK6mwPdVONOTE&m=t74BOKebo761FiLlF3RuH-SUnKGeYceUv24Gp4-Sj5E&s=JpThF3QS5XBibcjJ1Aylg-RSK6s4MaGJtnzz9ILzC9k&e=>

CA will obviously have a hard time monitoring and enforcing though, under the current traditional framework due to technical barriers (e.g. encryption) and also due to jurisdictional challenges.

So the other thing that CA really needs to do once the rules are set is to consider blocking non-compliant foreign apps completely at ISP level (especially now that political temperatures are cool and people and thinking clearly). Lets have local startups filling any gaps with copycat apps China-style.

To be clear, I support free speech and privacy. But I also support peace, stability, safe neighbourhoods, democracy, sovereignty and economic predictability!

A delicate balance is needed to maximise the rights of law abiding citizens while minimising the ability of those with evil intent to exploit basic rights in order to harm the innocent.

Good day. Patrick.

On Thursday, November 1, 2018, 11:00:44 PM GMT+3, Grace Githaiga via kictanet <kictanet@lists.kictanet.or.ke> wrote:

Kenya is considering regulating online services such as WhatsApp and Skype in a radical move that could force the internet-based service providers to share data with the government.

The Communications Authority of Kenya (CA) is in search of a consultant to study and determine how the so-called over-the-top services (OTTS) operated by groups such as Facebook, which runs WhatsApp, and Skype owner Microsoft, could be regulated. Read on: https://www.nation.co.ke/business/Telcos-regulator-seeks-to-monitor-WhatsApp... <https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=https-3A__www.nation.co.ke_business_Telcos-2Dregulator-2Dseeks-2Dto-2Dmonitor-2DWhatsApp_996-2D4833020-2Dfn9u7s_index.html&d=DwMFaQ&c=5VD0RTtNlTh3ycd41b3MUw&r=ArvepG4_wcNu_X9xi3nb_Xa9WsGLVfmK6mwPdVONOTE&m=t74BOKebo761FiLlF3RuH-SUnKGeYceUv24Gp4-Sj5E&s=cndeiTd4wVC4D6EsU4xGNLbSnmIyYUhzbfcRXK3rLjQ&e=>

Best regards

Githaiga, Grace

Co-Convenor Kenya ICT Action Network (KICTANet) Twitter:@ggithaiga Tel: 254722701495 Skype: gracegithaiga Alternate email: ggithaiga@hotmail.com Linkedin: https://www.linkedin.com/in/gracegithaiga <https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=https-3A__www.linkedin.com_in_gracegithaiga&d=DwMFaQ&c=5VD0RTtNlTh3ycd41b3MUw&r=ArvepG4_wcNu_X9xi3nb_Xa9WsGLVfmK6mwPdVONOTE&m=t74BOKebo761FiLlF3RuH-SUnKGeYceUv24Gp4-Sj5E&s=SPbDCZGLkvuvhrwZZV8pDdaTSmOKiuLCuepKMWmx2h4&e=> www.kictanet.or.ke <https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=http-3A__www.kictanet.or.ke&d=DwMFaQ&c=5VD0RTtNlTh3ycd41b3MUw&r=ArvepG4_wcNu_X9xi3nb_Xa9WsGLVfmK6mwPdVONOTE&m=t74BOKebo761FiLlF3RuH-SUnKGeYceUv24Gp4-Sj5E&s=HLU_9MXcBS2L_UcONeSbPQJHXMOeVSLcRzPrilhch8E&e=>

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Thanks for the heads-up Bhaves. This is very interesting and confirms that social media misuse is indeed a global problem (even for advanced economies). Have a great evening! On Tuesday, November 6, 2018, 6:54:37 PM GMT+3, Bhaves Shah <bhaves.shah@jabjabgroup.com> wrote: Patrick: Your arguments are good and I do respect them, any maybe even Singapore government is listening to you when thwarting fake news - https://www.straitstimes.com/singapore/select-committee-releases-22-proposal... Bhaves ShahFounder-CEOJabJab Group Ltd+254 707 306639website - www.jabjabgroup.com twitter - https://twitter.com/jabjabgroupfacebook - https://www.facebook.com/jabjabgroup/ On Tue, Nov 6, 2018 at 6:42 PM Bhaves Shah <bhaves.shah@jabjabgroup.com> wrote: Patrick: This is my personal opinion, so when I am referring to your point being moot it is my own opinion, however it does not mean that my opinion is the only out there, everyone is there contribute. As for answering your questions see below: 1. The scope is social media apps like Facebook, Whatsapp and Telegram that have been associated with facilitating crime or chaos due to the way they have been designed. Are these apps irreplaceable (e.g. by local legally compliant copycats)? Why?Firstly, technology is about evolution and these apps have evolved. It is not the apps that are creating the content, these are platforms where people are free to create the content, however as the apps have become large scale the issues related to facilitate crime or chaos has also evolved, but in the same manner the ecosystem will also thrive to safeguard with new innovations from abuse. The biggest culprits of the abuse is always governments itself. There is something called choice, no one has imposed these apps on anyone, each individual has a right to use them as they deem fit. However, everyone should know the risks, and that comes through education not government control.  2. Do these apps impose a burden on Government when they are abused? Who should pay for that burden? Why? What burden are your referring to, when national security is at stake, there could be case of such instances, however like I have said these apps have been abused by the same governments to control the masses within the ecosystem. There should be mechanisms or safeguards for abuse, however having full control of such apps and denying citizens to use these platforms for dissemination of information should not be constrained. Are we thriving to become a "police" state where every conversation is looked as a threat to governments.  3. Should they cooperate with Gov to eliminate risks of criminal abuse? If not, why not?Like any legal requirement if there is a criminal element to the dissemination of information, then the burden of proof is for the government to furnish the proof for these companies to comply with the law. However, just by saying "this is a threat" to a government, that does not hold water, the state must prove it's argument, otherwise just as well shut the entire ecosystem, and then deal with the masses and the consequences of free speech. 4. When these apps collect data (resource extraction - just like oil/gold extraction) should a country be compensated? If not, why not?The collection of data happens with every software you use, it is a choice a consumer makes for one to use such an app. The better the informed public is about the data, the better choices one makes. In my opinion parts of GDPR are good for privacy for citizens, and maybe those should be adapted locally if done properly, it should not be a copy and paste exercise.  5. When these apps manipulate people psychologically to promote repeated engagement (thereby distracting local human resources from engaging in local economic activity or reducing productivity) should they pay for that engagement? If not why not? Keep in mind user engagement is a billion dollar 21st century resource!Like any business everything is being manipulated. Look at consumer goods companies that sell their products, there is a form of manipulation going on. For example look at the way the food and beverage companies manipulate people to believing their products are good for health etc when in actual fact they are not good for health. Manipulation of the mind for any product or service is the end game for one to be a customer for that particular product or service - everyone has a choice to make. Its all about education.. 6. Should we mortgage our future by allowing irresponsible apps to use advanced psychology to target juveniles and turn them into screen *addicts* and *narcissists*?  If yes, how do we gain from that?There is no one mortgaging the future, we all know that there are good and bad with every product and service, millions of people are being abused even by not using these apps, but using physical goods made by consumer companies. The issue is that technology revolution, innovation and disruption will remain no matter how we look at it, there is nothing going to stop that, but like I said everyone needs to play their part in educating the people of the good and evil...Controls don't achieve anything, it just breeds a behaviour of circumvention especially with the younger generation who are growing up in the era of information and technology.  I hope my views are accepted, just as a side note, I am not imposing my beliefs on anyone, everyone has a right to choose and decide, I believe in that freedom of choice, I am of less control, but more education. Bhaves ShahFounder-CEOJabJab Group Ltd+254 707 306639website - www.jabjabgroup.com twitter - https://twitter.com/jabjabgroupfacebook - https://www.facebook.com/jabjabgroup/ On Tue, Nov 6, 2018 at 6:16 PM Patrick A. M. Maina <pmaina2000@yahoo.com> wrote: Thanks for your comment Bhaves,  Firstly an argument can't be moot just because you say so hehe (on a light note). You are not addressing the specific points that I have raised: Can you address them so that the refutation is clear and on point? 1. The scope is social media apps like Facebook, Whatsapp and Telegram that have been associated with facilitating crime or chaos due to the way they have been designed. Are these apps irreplaceable (e.g. by local legally compliant copycats)? Why? 2. Do these apps impose a burden on Government when they are abused? Who should pay for that burden? Why? 3. Should they cooperate with Gov to eliminate risks of criminal abuse? If not, why not? 4. When these apps collect data (resource extraction - just like oil/gold extraction) should a country be compensated? If not, why not? 5. When these apps manipulate people psychologically to promote repeated engagement (thereby distracting local human resources from engaging in local economic activity or reducing productivity) should they pay for that engagement? If not why not? Keep in mind user engagement is a billion dollar 21st century resource! 6. Should we mortgage our future by allowing irresponsible apps to use advanced psychology to target juveniles and turn them into screen *addicts* and *narcissists*?  If yes, how do we gain from that? I'd love to read your specific views on each of these points.  Brgds,Patrick. On Tuesday, November 6, 2018, 5:44:35 PM GMT+3, Bhaves Shah <bhaves.shah@jabjabgroup.com> wrote: Patrick: Your argument is moot.. A very simple analogy when email was introduced and now used by the entire world - are you taxing email platforms..So why hold the same argument for these OTT applications - why pay for services that the government never invented in the first place.. The basic premise is that without technology disruption our society will never advance and governments are the worst culprits of such hindrance to society’s advancement in this world.. Governments love to control and that fact alone is a motivator to circumvent such an ecosystem..The premise of human advancement is adapting to new revolutions and disruptions.. Governments should not hinder progress and when it comes to collecting revenues from so called innovators and disruptors then bring such companies to Kenya to set up base and provide them with incentives and ask them to employ Kenyan citizens etc - drive such an encouragement with finding suitable models for advancement of societies.. Taxation is just a cheap way of protectionism - it does not work..It impedes human progress.. Cheers!Bhaves On 6 Nov 2018, at 5:18 PM, Patrick A. M. Maina via kictanet <kictanet@lists.kictanet.or.ke> wrote: OK I'm back (briefly). Thanks for your points Mr. Okobi, Actually the only difference between "taxes" and "fines" is the definition. Taxes can be based on anything - not just earnings. Example: What is VAT? A tax on consumption! Why should you pay extra tax on consumption after you have already been taxed on income? Does that make sense? Is that not fining or penalizing people for enjoying their *already taxed* money?  Another example: why tax food or books? These are essential must-have items. I should not be taxed to eat or educate my kids. Isn't that not a form of "existence tax"? What about tax on sanitary pads? Is that not discriminating against girls (they end up paying more taxes than boys because its a gender-specific essential purchase). Why tax people for keeping clean babies (diaper tax)? Why tax people for going to work (fuel VAT)? etc etc. I'd love to hear your views about the rationality of these taxes. Oh, btw, even the fines one pays in court are a form of compliance/obedience tax. Those who follow the rules pay less taxes (thus encouraging compliance). Anyway, lets not get stuck on definitions but I'd urge you to read some good books on taxation & economics to get a grip of this. Okay, who has said anything about taxing "online services" or "all online services"? That is a strawman argument that diverts attention from the real issue. I am only talking about online apps with high potential for *abuse at scale*, which imposes a heavy cost burden on Governments and/or society (e.g. Facebook, Whatsapp, Telegram etc). These apps (and their problematic architectures) are well known and Governments worldwide are scrambling to find solutions to the problems that they have enabled/amplified by design.  Why should Kenyan taxpayers *subsidize* the fixing of costly problems caused/facilitated/amplified by these foreign billion dollar apps who don't contribute their share of taxes locally or accept their share of responsibility? This is a form of reverse taxation where our Government is effectively "paying" taxes to Facebook and Whatsapp! Tobacco analogy might help elucidate the issue: When tax funds are spent on lung cancer treatment for cigarette smokers, isn't that a subsidy paid by taxpayers - including non-smokers, to Tobacco companies? Looks like a no-brainer nowadays but it took a while (and similar debates) for Tobacco companies to accept because it takes decades for lung cancer to form. Many even paid for fake scientific studies to disprove claims that Tobacco smoking is harmful. Very similar to what some notorious data aggregating multinationals have been accused of doing.   Glad that you accept that there is indeed a cost burden for Government (and society) from fake news that is amplified by these social media platforms like Facebook and whatsapp. At least we have a common understanding that there is a real problem. Is there data? Yes, the data does exist which directly associates these apps (e.g. Whatsapp & facebook) to crime, addiction, subversion, mob violence and deaths. See my earlier post on this with several links. Why are we so attached to these apps? How many jobs do they create here? How do we benefit from them such that they are not irreplaceable by local clones? Perhaps that is the question that we should be asking. The 21st Century tax innovations that I am proposing may be difficult to grasp because they does not yet exist and require a non-traditional view of how businesses operate (especially those based on the Silicon Valley VC and Data Mining model). But that is where the world is heading.  Citizens data is a national product. Should off-shore data aggregation / mining multinationals get it for free? Should they be allowed to manipulate/brainwash us or our children - in order to monetize the ensuing engagement - and then let us bear whatever consequences that ensue downstream? Should they be allowed to facilitate the spread of disinformation by design - even with the risk of causing harm or deaths to innocent victims? Should they impose new/heavier cost burdens on governments. Should they be allowed to facilitate and protect criminals by design?  These are 21st century issues that didn't even exist 10 years ago. They require 21st century thinking and solutions. Cheers & have a great evening!Patrick. On Tuesday, November 6, 2018, 3:47:48 PM GMT+3, Ebele Okobi <ebeleokobi@fb.com> wrote: If your model is not revenue based, then what you are talking about is not a tax, it’s a fine.  I’m curious as to what data you are using to determine that online services are “net negative”? Is this your assessment for Kenya specifically, or is your contention that globally, all online services provide net negative value to the world? There are multiple studies on the economic and social benefit of online services, so I am quite interested in learning of those which substantiate the net negative claim. Also, is this specific to Facebook products, or all online services, including those created by Kenyans? And would this tax regime be a global tax-in other words, should it also apply to Kenyan companies operating globally? For example, for those on this list with Kenyan companies offering online services, should this tax regime apply to them in Kenya? Should, for ex., Uganda apply a similar regime for Kenyan companies offering online services there? In terms of the metrics you propose-Facebook is a public company, as are many companies offering online services. What is the relevance of funds raised in this context? In addition-valuation for a public company is a completely different metric than funds raised-curious as to how this would be made  predictable, given that a good environment for economic growth depends to a great extent on a rationalized policy and regulatory environment? As for the security issues-i have acknowledged previously the challenges and there, and there is excellent opportunity for collective thinking on how to deal with platforms that are a mirror of the divisions and risks in societies (which we are doing!) but nothing recommended below addresses or mitigates  any of those risks. I am mindful that the most violent periods politically in Kenya predated Facebook and WhatsApp, so the notion that these platforms cause violence, or that taxing them would remove security risk is unsupported by any data whatsoever. On Nov 6, 2018, at 12:12 PM, Patrick A. M. Maina <pmaina2000@yahoo.com> wrote: Whatsapp is not monetised and does not derive any revenue from anywhere yet (this will change next year). This should have no bearing at all on whether Whatsapp should be taxed or not. It is a billion dollar multinational company operating on a non-traditional business model. This means that it is our tax regulations which need to be *modernized* to rope in 21st century global business models that add a local cost burden on the government (e.g. increasing costs of security, turning kids into narcissistic screen zombies - with resulting impact on learning and metal health etc) yet do not contribute to the local kitty - which is unfair considering that they are *billion dollar* companies.  To put it differently, any shilling that Government spends to mitigate the risks of fake news in whatsapp or Facebook (e.g. buying ads to push correct position) is a subsidy paid to Facebook and Whatsapp. This is money that could have gone to health sector to buy medicine, sanitation for clean water or agriculture for food security. Instead it goes to fix a problem created by an entity that has net negative value to the economy. Not all innovation is good or beneficial! How to tax Silicon valley business models: Use the same metrics investors use:1. Estimated number of users /  downloads2. Risk / benefit factor (e.g. security risks or impact on jobs/wages)3. Valuation (funds raised) Silicon valley companies are designed to make losses for decades even as they move massive amounts of money (literally avoiding taxes by exploiting obsolete legislation). The real business they are in is the fundraising business but that is under the tax radar. Signing off. Will check back later for updates. Patrick On Tuesday, November 6, 2018, 2:45:18 PM GMT+3, Ebele Okobi via kictanet <kictanet@lists.kictanet.or.ke> wrote: This is a fascinating and very timely conversation. As I’m sure all can imagine, I have many thoughts. 😁I do have a question, first-how much revenue does WhatsApp derive from Kenya? On Nov 6, 2018, at 7:45 AM, evelyne wanjiku via kictanet <kictanet@lists.kictanet.or.ke> wrote: Dear All, In suppport of Mr. Patrick Mainas Maina's input. The government needs to consider taxing the platforms. This is because they make money from us trade in our data and the revenue genereted benefits their countries and not ours given that they do not pay taxes here. This has been considered in Europe. In africa however, no country can apply this taxes on its own due to our 'economically colonised' position our countries find ourselves in. This means that the easiest option for our government becomes the easy route which is taxing the end user. This is counterproductive especially for those who use social media for productive activities. Therefore only a united african front would be succesful in getting these giants to pay up and keep our governments from considering taxing citizens. It is also important to consider that calls made on whatsapp, skype,viber cost less. This means that there is revenue reduction for the companies providing voice services. Considering that these companies are locally based and pay taxes to our government, why should their revenue be reduced by services that do not pay taxes to us? I suppose this is the logic used by countries like the UAE that block the use of whatsapp to make calls whithin their borders.  As for the ability of whatsapp to cause chaos, this is true and has been proven and whatsapp itself has acknowlegded this fact in countries like India and Pakistan. These are countries where fake news and inflammatory messages delivered mainly through whatsapp have led to chaos that have led to deaths of many people.  Whatsapp has responded by putting in measures to ensure that such spread of hate news can be controlled from their end. Whatsapp also remains open open to suggestions as to how this can be contolled and is actively leading research in this area. The question therefore should be, should we leave Whatsapp to be in charge of what is transfered on their platform and the consequences that follow?  Should government have a role in monitoring how whatsapp is being used for harmful activities. Overall what is the role of government and the various platforms in ensuring this platform and others are used responsibly? Good day to all On Tuesday, November 6, 2018, 3:44:22 AM GMT+3, Francis Monyango via kictanet <kictanet@lists.kictanet.or.ke> wrote: Morning Mr Patrick Maina, You mention how messaging apps facilitate fake news, crime and other things. You also lay peace,development on a scale versus human rights such as free speech and privacy. Sir, it is good to be objective and factual. Last year Kenya had 10 months of hot politics. Research shows that the Kenyan authorities did not attempt to control, disrupt or shutdown the internet. Hence this tired line of the country going into flames because of the internet (messaging apps) doesn't hold any weight. The number of Kenyan users of these messaging apps and other factors such as social class of users, bots affect the impact of the internet in democratic transitions. The broadcast media shut down in January should tell which communication medium has more impact on the Kenyan society. 😉 I believe your intention was to state why companies that offer over the top services should pay taxes here. That is a different argument all together with a different set of facts unless you are advocating for a blanket over the top tax to be paid by users to avoid 'spread of gossip and lies' just like in Uganda. On Fri, 2 Nov 2018, 13:26 Patrick A. M. Maina via kictanet, <kictanet@lists.kictanet.or.ke> wrote: These messaging apps facilitate fake news, crime, foreign meddling (to subvert democracy), brainwashing and hate speech on a massive scale. We know this for a fact.  So as citizens and stakeholders in our country, we need to ask: what do we value more, is it things that improve peace, stability, economic development and democracy, OR, is it some utopian, unbounded notion of free speech and privacy that is disconnected from our contextual reality (e.g. protects criminals, malicious defamers and violence mongers in equal proportion as law abiding citizens)? The companies running these uncontrolled messaging platforms will not be impacted if our country goes up in flames. They cost governments tons of money in maintaining internal security (especially during democratic transitions - sometimes to existential levels) yet they don't pay any taxes... and mark you, they are *billion dollar* companies! This also means that funds that ought to have bought, say, medicine to save lives gets diverted to fix an *imported problem* with no path to holding the parent company accountable for damage caused. Gok needs to modernize our tax laws, which currently are based on the traditional "for profit" enterprise model and thus out of touch with Silicon Valley's "make losses by design" model. The basic assumption that entrepreneurship is a profit oriented endeavour does not hold for Silicon Valley VC subsidized companies. They are designed to operate as loss makers for decades (but still move *massive* amounts of financial resources at massive scale). This has the technical effect of *tax avoidance* because massive profits *are* still being made by the offshore VCs - which denies governments billions in taxes (despite imposing local burdens as illustrated above).  A smart government would create modernized laws to tax VC funded Silicon Valley companies e.g. on the basis of *funding rounds* and *valuations* because this is their *real* business i.e. its how the investors intend to make money from day one - and the primary reason they push for perpetual losses! There should also be a turnover tax and VAT on online revenue earned in Kenya by foreign billion dollar internet companies (e.g. advertisement revenue and appstore revenue), to level the tax playing field for local businesses. Similar to what other countries like the UK are working on:  https://www.wired.co.uk/article/facebook-uk-tax-bill CA will obviously have a hard time monitoring and enforcing though, under the current traditional framework due to technical barriers (e.g. encryption) and also due to jurisdictional challenges.  So the other thing that CA really needs to do once the rules are set is to consider blocking non-compliant foreign apps completely at ISP level (especially now that political temperatures are cool and people and thinking clearly). Lets have local startups filling any gaps with copycat apps China-style.  To be clear, I support free speech and privacy. But I also support peace, stability, safe neighbourhoods, democracy, sovereignty and economic predictability! A delicate balance is needed to maximise the rights of law abiding citizens while minimising the ability of those with evil intent to exploit basic rights in order to harm the innocent. Good day.Patrick. On Thursday, November 1, 2018, 11:00:44 PM GMT+3, Grace Githaiga via kictanet <kictanet@lists.kictanet.or.ke> wrote: Kenya is considering regulating online services such as WhatsApp and Skype in a radical move that could force the internet-based service providers to share data with the government. The Communications Authority of Kenya (CA) is in search of a consultant to study and determine how the so-called over-the-top services (OTTS) operated by groups such as Facebook, which runs WhatsApp, and Skype owner Microsoft, could be regulated. Read on:https://www.nation.co.ke/business/Telcos-regulator-seeks-to-monitor-WhatsApp... Best regards Githaiga, Grace Co-Convenor Kenya ICT Action Network (KICTANet) Twitter:@ggithaiga Tel: 254722701495 Skype: gracegithaiga Alternate email: ggithaiga@hotmail.com Linkedin: https://www.linkedin.com/in/gracegithaiga www.kictanet.or.ke "Change only happens when ordinary people get involved, get engaged and come together to demand it. I am asking you to believe. 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The network aims to act as a catalyst for reform in the ICT sector in support of the national aim of ICT enabled growth and development. KICTANetiquette : Adhere to the same standards of acceptable behaviors online that you follow in real life: respect people's times and bandwidth, share knowledge, don't flame or abuse or personalize, respect privacy, do not spam, do not market your wares or qualifications. _______________________________________________ kictanet mailing list kictanet@lists.kictanet.or.ke https://lists.kictanet.or.ke/mailman/listinfo/kictanet Twitter: http://twitter.com/kictanet Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/KICTANet/ Domain Registration sponsored by www.eacdirectory.co.ke Unsubscribe or change your options at https://lists.kictanet.or.ke/mailman/options/kictanet/bhaves.shah%40jabjabgr... The Kenya ICT Action Network (KICTANet) is a multi-stakeholder platform for people and institutions interested and involved in ICT policy and regulation. The network aims to act as a catalyst for reform in the ICT sector in support of the national aim of ICT enabled growth and development. KICTANetiquette : Adhere to the same standards of acceptable behaviors online that you follow in real life: respect people's times and bandwidth, share knowledge, don't flame or abuse or personalize, respect privacy, do not spam, do not market your wares or qualifications.

Listers, Same debate is happening elsewhere as well: Bloomberg: https://t.co/aPPGkI3vhI <https://t.co/aPPGkI3vhI> There's Only One Way to Tackle Facebook, Google and Amazon Regards On Tue, Nov 6, 2018 at 9:00 PM, Bhaves Shah via kictanet < kictanet@lists.kictanet.or.ke> wrote:

Something of interest - https://qz.com/africa/1447015/china-is-helping- african-countries-control-the-internet/ <https://qz.com/africa/1447015/china-is-helping-african-countries-control-the-internet/?utm_content=79373561&utm_medium=social&utm_source=twitter>

Cheers! Bhaves

On 6 Nov 2018, at 7:52 PM, Patrick A. M. Maina <pmaina2000@yahoo.com> wrote:

Thanks for the heads-up Bhaves. This is very interesting and confirms that social media misuse is indeed a global problem (even for advanced economies).

Have a great evening!

On Tuesday, November 6, 2018, 6:54:37 PM GMT+3, Bhaves Shah < bhaves.shah@jabjabgroup.com> wrote:

Patrick:

Your arguments are good and I do respect them, any maybe even Singapore government is listening to you when thwarting fake news - https://www.straitstimes.com/singapore/select-committee-releases-22- proposals-to-combat-fake-news

Bhaves Shah Founder-CEO JabJab Group Ltd +254 707 306639 website - www.jabjabgroup.com twitter - https://twitter.com/jabjabgroup facebook - https://www.facebook.com/jabjabgroup/

On Tue, Nov 6, 2018 at 6:42 PM Bhaves Shah <bhaves.shah@jabjabgroup.com> wrote:

Patrick:

This is my personal opinion, so when I am referring to your point being moot it is my own opinion, however it does not mean that my opinion is the only out there, everyone is there contribute. As for answering your questions see below:

1. The scope is social media apps like Facebook, Whatsapp and Telegram that have been associated with facilitating crime or chaos due to the way they have been designed. Are these apps irreplaceable (e.g. by local legally compliant copycats)? Why? Firstly, technology is about evolution and these apps have evolved. It is not the apps that are creating the content, these are platforms where people are free to create the content, however as the apps have become large scale the issues related to facilitate crime or chaos has also evolved, but in the same manner the ecosystem will also thrive to safeguard with new innovations from abuse. The biggest culprits of the abuse is always governments itself. There is something called choice, no one has imposed these apps on anyone, each individual has a right to use them as they deem fit. However, everyone should know the risks, and that comes through education not government control.

2. Do these apps impose a burden on Government when they are abused? Who should pay for that burden? Why? What burden are your referring to, when national security is at stake, there could be case of such instances, however like I have said these apps have been abused by the same governments to control the masses within the ecosystem. There should be mechanisms or safeguards for abuse, however having full control of such apps and denying citizens to use these platforms for dissemination of information should not be constrained. Are we thriving to become a "police" state where every conversation is looked as a threat to governments.

3. Should they cooperate with Gov to eliminate risks of criminal abuse? If not, why not? Like any legal requirement if there is a criminal element to the dissemination of information, then the burden of proof is for the government to furnish the proof for these companies to comply with the law. However, just by saying "this is a threat" to a government, that does not hold water, the state must prove it's argument, otherwise just as well shut the entire ecosystem, and then deal with the masses and the consequences of free speech.

4. When these apps collect data (resource extraction - just like oil/gold extraction) should a country be compensated? If not, why not? The collection of data happens with every software you use, it is a choice a consumer makes for one to use such an app. The better the informed public is about the data, the better choices one makes. In my opinion parts of GDPR are good for privacy for citizens, and maybe those should be adapted locally if done properly, it should not be a copy and paste exercise.

5. When these apps manipulate people psychologically to promote repeated engagement (thereby distracting local human resources from engaging in local economic activity or reducing productivity) should they pay for that engagement? If not why not? Keep in mind user engagement is a billion dollar 21st century resource! Like any business everything is being manipulated. Look at consumer goods companies that sell their products, there is a form of manipulation going on. For example look at the way the food and beverage companies manipulate people to believing their products are good for health etc when in actual fact they are not good for health. Manipulation of the mind for any product or service is the end game for one to be a customer for that particular product or service - everyone has a choice to make. Its all about education..

6. Should we mortgage our future by allowing irresponsible apps to use advanced psychology to target juveniles and turn them into screen *addicts* and *narcissists*? If yes, how do we gain from that? There is no one mortgaging the future, we all know that there are good and bad with every product and service, millions of people are being abused even by not using these apps, but using physical goods made by consumer companies. The issue is that technology revolution, innovation and disruption will remain no matter how we look at it, there is nothing going to stop that, but like I said everyone needs to play their part in educating the people of the good and evil...Controls don't achieve anything, it just breeds a behaviour of circumvention especially with the younger generation who are growing up in the era of information and technology.

I hope my views are accepted, just as a side note, I am not imposing my beliefs on anyone, everyone has a right to choose and decide, I believe in that freedom of choice, I am of less control, but more education.

Bhaves Shah Founder-CEO JabJab Group Ltd +254 707 306639 website - www.jabjabgroup.com twitter - https://twitter.com/jabjabgroup facebook - https://www.facebook.com/jabjabgroup/

On Tue, Nov 6, 2018 at 6:16 PM Patrick A. M. Maina <pmaina2000@yahoo.com> wrote:

Thanks for your comment Bhaves,

Firstly an argument can't be moot just because you say so hehe (on a light note). You are not addressing the specific points that I have raised: Can you address them so that the refutation is clear and on point?

1. The scope is social media apps like Facebook, Whatsapp and Telegram that have been associated with facilitating crime or chaos due to the way they have been designed. Are these apps irreplaceable (e.g. by local legally compliant copycats)? Why?

2. Do these apps impose a burden on Government when they are abused? Who should pay for that burden? Why?

3. Should they cooperate with Gov to eliminate risks of criminal abuse? If not, why not?

4. When these apps collect data (resource extraction - just like oil/gold extraction) should a country be compensated? If not, why not?

5. When these apps manipulate people psychologically to promote repeated engagement (thereby distracting local human resources from engaging in local economic activity or reducing productivity) should they pay for that engagement? If not why not? Keep in mind user engagement is a billion dollar 21st century resource!

6. Should we mortgage our future by allowing irresponsible apps to use advanced psychology to target juveniles and turn them into screen *addicts* and *narcissists*? If yes, how do we gain from that?

I'd love to read your specific views on each of these points.

Brgds, Patrick.

On Tuesday, November 6, 2018, 5:44:35 PM GMT+3, Bhaves Shah < bhaves.shah@jabjabgroup.com> wrote:

Patrick:

Your argument is moot..

A very simple analogy when email was introduced and now used by the entire world - are you taxing email platforms..So why hold the same argument for these OTT applications - why pay for services that the government never invented in the first place..

The basic premise is that without technology disruption our society will never advance and governments are the worst culprits of such hindrance to society’s advancement in this world..

Governments love to control and that fact alone is a motivator to circumvent such an ecosystem..The premise of human advancement is adapting to new revolutions and disruptions..

Governments should not hinder progress and when it comes to collecting revenues from so called innovators and disruptors then bring such companies to Kenya to set up base and provide them with incentives and ask them to employ Kenyan citizens etc - drive such an encouragement with finding suitable models for advancement of societies..

Taxation is just a cheap way of protectionism - it does not work..It impedes human progress..

Cheers! Bhaves

On 6 Nov 2018, at 5:18 PM, Patrick A. M. Maina via kictanet < kictanet@lists.kictanet.or.ke> wrote:

OK I'm back (briefly). Thanks for your points Mr. Okobi,

Actually the only difference between "taxes" and "fines" is the definition. Taxes can be based on anything - not just earnings. Example: What is VAT? A tax on consumption! Why should you pay extra tax on consumption after you have already been taxed on income? Does that make sense? Is that not fining or penalizing people for enjoying their *already taxed* money?

Another example: why tax food or books? These are essential must-have items. I should not be taxed to eat or educate my kids. Isn't that not a form of "existence tax"? What about tax on sanitary pads? Is that not discriminating against girls (they end up paying more taxes than boys because its a gender-specific essential purchase). Why tax people for keeping clean babies (diaper tax)? Why tax people for going to work (fuel VAT)? etc etc. I'd love to hear your views about the rationality of these taxes.

Oh, btw, even the fines one pays in court are a form of compliance/obedience tax. Those who follow the rules pay less taxes (thus encouraging compliance). Anyway, lets not get stuck on definitions but I'd urge you to read some good books on taxation & economics to get a grip of this.

Okay, who has said anything about taxing "online services" or "all online services"? That is a strawman argument that diverts attention from the real issue. I am only talking about online apps with high potential for *abuse at scale*, which imposes a heavy cost burden on Governments and/or society (e.g. Facebook, Whatsapp, Telegram etc). These apps (and their problematic architectures) are well known and Governments worldwide are scrambling to find solutions to the problems that they have enabled/amplified by design.

Why should Kenyan taxpayers *subsidize* the fixing of costly problems caused/facilitated/amplified by these foreign billion dollar apps who don't contribute their share of taxes locally or accept their share of responsibility? This is a form of reverse taxation where our Government is effectively "paying" taxes to Facebook and Whatsapp!

Tobacco analogy might help elucidate the issue: When tax funds are spent on lung cancer treatment for cigarette smokers, isn't that a subsidy paid by taxpayers - including non-smokers, to Tobacco companies? Looks like a no-brainer nowadays but it took a while (and similar debates) for Tobacco companies to accept because it takes decades for lung cancer to form. Many even paid for fake scientific studies to disprove claims that Tobacco smoking is harmful. Very similar to what some notorious data aggregating multinationals have been accused of doing.

Glad that you accept that there is indeed a cost burden for Government (and society) from fake news that is amplified by these social media platforms like Facebook and whatsapp. At least we have a common understanding that there is a real problem.

Is there data? Yes, the data does exist which directly associates these apps (e.g. Whatsapp & facebook) to crime, addiction, subversion, mob violence and deaths. See my earlier post on this with several links.

Why are we so attached to these apps? How many jobs do they create here? How do we benefit from them such that they are not irreplaceable by local clones? Perhaps that is the question that we should be asking.

The 21st Century tax innovations that I am proposing may be difficult to grasp because they does not yet exist and require a non-traditional view of how businesses operate (especially those based on the Silicon Valley VC and Data Mining model). But that is where the world is heading.

Citizens data is a national product. Should off-shore data aggregation / mining multinationals get it for free? Should they be allowed to manipulate/brainwash us or our children - in order to monetize the ensuing engagement - and then let us bear whatever consequences that ensue downstream? Should they be allowed to facilitate the spread of disinformation by design - even with the risk of causing harm or deaths to innocent victims? Should they impose new/heavier cost burdens on governments. Should they be allowed to facilitate and protect criminals by design?

These are 21st century issues that didn't even exist 10 years ago. They require 21st century thinking and solutions.

Cheers & have a great evening! Patrick.

On Tuesday, November 6, 2018, 3:47:48 PM GMT+3, Ebele Okobi < ebeleokobi@fb.com> wrote:

If your model is not revenue based, then what you are talking about is not a tax, it’s a fine.

I’m curious as to what data you are using to determine that online services are “net negative”? Is this your assessment for Kenya specifically, or is your contention that globally, all online services provide net negative value to the world? There are multiple studies on the economic and social benefit of online services, so I am quite interested in learning of those which substantiate the net negative claim.

Also, is this specific to Facebook products, or all online services, including those created by Kenyans?

And would this tax regime be a global tax-in other words, should it also apply to Kenyan companies operating globally? For example, for those on this list with Kenyan companies offering online services, should this tax regime apply to them in Kenya? Should, for ex., Uganda apply a similar regime for Kenyan companies offering online services there?

In terms of the metrics you propose-Facebook is a public company, as are many companies offering online services. What is the relevance of funds raised in this context? In addition-valuation for a public company is a completely different metric than funds raised-curious as to how this would be made predictable, given that a good environment for economic growth depends to a great extent on a rationalized policy and regulatory environment?

As for the security issues-i have acknowledged previously the challenges and there, and there is excellent opportunity for collective thinking on how to deal with platforms that are a mirror of the divisions and risks in societies (which we are doing!) but nothing recommended below addresses or mitigates any of those risks. I am mindful that the most violent periods politically in Kenya predated Facebook and WhatsApp, so the notion that these platforms cause violence, or that taxing them would remove security risk is unsupported by any data whatsoever.

On Nov 6, 2018, at 12:12 PM, Patrick A. M. Maina <pmaina2000@yahoo.com> wrote:

Whatsapp is not monetised and does not derive any revenue from anywhere yet (this will change next year). This should have no bearing at all on whether Whatsapp should be taxed or not. It is a billion dollar multinational company operating on a non-traditional business model. This means that it is our tax regulations which need to be *modernized* to rope in 21st century global business models that add a local cost burden on the government (e.g. increasing costs of security, turning kids into narcissistic screen zombies - with resulting impact on learning and metal health etc) yet do not contribute to the local kitty - which is unfair considering that they are *billion dollar* companies.

To put it differently, any shilling that Government spends to mitigate the risks of fake news in whatsapp or Facebook (e.g. buying ads to push correct position) is a subsidy paid to Facebook and Whatsapp. This is money that could have gone to health sector to buy medicine, sanitation for clean water or agriculture for food security. Instead it goes to fix a problem created by an entity that has net negative value to the economy. Not all innovation is good or beneficial!

How to tax Silicon valley business models: Use the same metrics investors use: 1. Estimated number of users / downloads 2. Risk / benefit factor (e.g. security risks or impact on jobs/wages) 3. Valuation (funds raised)

Silicon valley companies are designed to make losses for decades even as they move massive amounts of money (literally avoiding taxes by exploiting obsolete legislation). The real business they are in is the fundraising business but that is under the tax radar.

Signing off. Will check back later for updates.

Patrick

On Tuesday, November 6, 2018, 2:45:18 PM GMT+3, Ebele Okobi via kictanet < kictanet@lists.kictanet.or.ke> wrote:

This is a fascinating and very timely conversation. As I’m sure all can imagine, I have many thoughts. 😁 I do have a question, first-how much revenue does WhatsApp derive from Kenya?

On Nov 6, 2018, at 7:45 AM, evelyne wanjiku via kictanet < kictanet@lists.kictanet.or.ke> wrote:

Dear All,

In suppport of Mr. Patrick Mainas Maina's input.

The government needs to consider taxing the platforms. This is because they make money from us trade in our data and the revenue genereted benefits their countries and not ours given that they do not pay taxes here. This has been considered in Europe. In africa however, no country can apply this taxes on its own due to our 'economically colonised' position our countries find ourselves in. This means that the easiest option for our government becomes the easy route which is taxing the end user. This is counterproductive especially for those who use social media for productive activities. Therefore only a united african front would be succesful in getting these giants to pay up and keep our governments from considering taxing citizens. It is also important to consider that calls made on whatsapp, skype,viber cost less. This means that there is revenue reduction for the companies providing voice services. Considering that these companies are locally based and pay taxes to our government, why should their revenue be reduced by services that do not pay taxes to us? I suppose this is the logic used by countries like the UAE that block the use of whatsapp to make calls whithin their borders.

As for the ability of whatsapp to cause chaos, this is true and has been proven and whatsapp itself has acknowlegded this fact in countries like India and Pakistan. These are countries where fake news and inflammatory messages delivered mainly through whatsapp have led to chaos that have led to deaths of many people. Whatsapp has responded by putting in measures to ensure that such spread of hate news can be controlled from their end. Whatsapp also remains open open to suggestions as to how this can be contolled and is actively leading research in this area.

The question therefore should be, should we leave Whatsapp to be in charge of what is transfered on their platform and the consequences that follow? Should government have a role in monitoring how whatsapp is being used for harmful activities. Overall what is the role of government and the various platforms in ensuring this platform and others are used responsibly?

Good day to all

On Tuesday, November 6, 2018, 3:44:22 AM GMT+3, Francis Monyango via kictanet <kictanet@lists.kictanet.or.ke> wrote:

Morning Mr Patrick Maina,

You mention how messaging apps facilitate fake news, crime and other things. You also lay peace,development on a scale versus human rights such as free speech and privacy. Sir, it is good to be objective and factual. Last year Kenya had 10 months of hot politics. Research shows that the Kenyan authorities did not attempt to control, disrupt or shutdown the internet. Hence this tired line of the country going into flames because of the internet (messaging apps) doesn't hold any weight. The number of Kenyan users of these messaging apps and other factors such as social class of users, bots affect the impact of the internet in democratic transitions. The broadcast media shut down in January should tell which communication medium has more impact on the Kenyan society. 😉

I believe your intention was to state why companies that offer over the top services should pay taxes here. That is a different argument all together with a different set of facts unless you are advocating for a blanket over the top tax to be paid by users to avoid 'spread of gossip and lies' just like in Uganda.

On Fri, 2 Nov 2018, 13:26 Patrick A. M. Maina via kictanet, < kictanet@lists.kictanet.or.ke> wrote:

These messaging apps facilitate fake news, crime, foreign meddling (to subvert democracy), brainwashing and hate speech on a massive scale. We know this for a fact.

So as citizens and stakeholders in our country, we need to ask: what do we value more, is it things that improve peace, stability, economic development and democracy, OR, is it some utopian, unbounded notion of free speech and privacy that is disconnected from our contextual reality (e.g. protects criminals, malicious defamers and violence mongers in equal proportion as law abiding citizens)?

The companies running these uncontrolled messaging platforms will not be impacted if our country goes up in flames. They cost governments tons of money in maintaining internal security (especially during democratic transitions - sometimes to existential levels) yet they don't pay any taxes... and mark you, they are *billion dollar* companies! This also means that funds that ought to have bought, say, medicine to save lives gets diverted to fix an *imported problem* with no path to holding the parent company accountable for damage caused.

Gok needs to modernize our tax laws, which currently are based on the traditional "for profit" enterprise model and thus out of touch with Silicon Valley's "make losses by design" model. The basic assumption that entrepreneurship is a profit oriented endeavour does not hold for Silicon Valley VC subsidized companies. They are designed to operate as loss makers for decades (but still move *massive* amounts of financial resources at massive scale). This has the technical effect of *tax avoidance* because massive profits *are* still being made by the offshore VCs - which denies governments billions in taxes (despite imposing local burdens as illustrated above).

A smart government would create modernized laws to tax VC funded Silicon Valley companies e.g. on the basis of *funding rounds* and *valuations* because this is their *real* business i.e. its how the investors intend to make money from day one - and the primary reason they push for perpetual losses!

There should also be a turnover tax and VAT on online revenue earned in Kenya by foreign billion dollar internet companies (e.g. advertisement revenue and appstore revenue), to level the tax playing field for local businesses. Similar to what other countries like the UK are working on:

https://www.wired.co.uk/article/facebook-uk-tax-bill <https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=https-3A__www.wired.co.uk_article_facebook-2Duk-2Dtax-2Dbill&d=DwMFaQ&c=5VD0RTtNlTh3ycd41b3MUw&r=ArvepG4_wcNu_X9xi3nb_Xa9WsGLVfmK6mwPdVONOTE&m=t74BOKebo761FiLlF3RuH-SUnKGeYceUv24Gp4-Sj5E&s=JpThF3QS5XBibcjJ1Aylg-RSK6s4MaGJtnzz9ILzC9k&e=>

CA will obviously have a hard time monitoring and enforcing though, under the current traditional framework due to technical barriers (e.g. encryption) and also due to jurisdictional challenges.

So the other thing that CA really needs to do once the rules are set is to consider blocking non-compliant foreign apps completely at ISP level (especially now that political temperatures are cool and people and thinking clearly). Lets have local startups filling any gaps with copycat apps China-style.

To be clear, I support free speech and privacy. But I also support peace, stability, safe neighbourhoods, democracy, sovereignty and economic predictability!

A delicate balance is needed to maximise the rights of law abiding citizens while minimising the ability of those with evil intent to exploit basic rights in order to harm the innocent.

Good day. Patrick.

On Thursday, November 1, 2018, 11:00:44 PM GMT+3, Grace Githaiga via kictanet <kictanet@lists.kictanet.or.ke> wrote:

Kenya is considering regulating online services such as WhatsApp and Skype in a radical move that could force the internet-based service providers to share data with the government.

The Communications Authority of Kenya (CA) is in search of a consultant to study and determine how the so-called over-the-top services (OTTS) operated by groups such as Facebook, which runs WhatsApp, and Skype owner Microsoft, could be regulated. Read on: https://www.nation.co.ke/business/Telcos-regulator- seeks-to-monitor-WhatsApp/996-4833020-fn9u7s/index.html <https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=https-3A__www.nation.co.ke_business_Telcos-2Dregulator-2Dseeks-2Dto-2Dmonitor-2DWhatsApp_996-2D4833020-2Dfn9u7s_index.html&d=DwMFaQ&c=5VD0RTtNlTh3ycd41b3MUw&r=ArvepG4_wcNu_X9xi3nb_Xa9WsGLVfmK6mwPdVONOTE&m=t74BOKebo761FiLlF3RuH-SUnKGeYceUv24Gp4-Sj5E&s=cndeiTd4wVC4D6EsU4xGNLbSnmIyYUhzbfcRXK3rLjQ&e=>

Best regards

Githaiga, Grace

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-- *Regards,* *Wait**haka Ngigi* Chief Executive Officer | Alliance Technologies | MCK Nairobi Synod Building T +254 20 525 0750 |Office Mobile: +254 716 201061 | M +254 737 811 000 www.at.co.ke

Patrick Something we agree on! :-) Completely with you on the China, US comparison on Internet Freedoms and subversion. On the issue of #BigTech. I'm conflicted. Here's my take:- 1. When these giants were in their infancy we celebrated them. They offered us something that was outside our reach - Internet Tools that we use now - email, search, networking at scale (facebook, Linkedin etc), cloud storage etc literally for free. Did we not think that at some point that the Pied Piper will come calling to collect? 2. The Global Tech Ecosystem probably won't exist as we know it today if it weren't for the dirt cheap, Pay As You Go models of cloud computing, pioneered by Amazon and copied by almost all the the big tech companies today. What would the alternative be? I know for a fact that a number of startups I'm involved in wont be in existence or we at least won't be plotting Global Dominance if it weren't for this infrastructure. 3. Lastly, why are we abrogating the role of regulators in keeping everyone honest and fair. What can we do to ensure we don't throw the baby with the bath water? Regards *Ali Hussein* *Principal* *AHK & Associates* Tel: +254 713 601113 Twitter: @AliHKassim Skype: abu-jomo LinkedIn: http://ke.linkedin.com/in/alihkassim <http://ke.linkedin.com/in/alihkassim> 13th Floor , Delta Towers, Oracle Wing, Chiromo Road, Westlands, Nairobi, Kenya. Any information of a personal nature expressed in this email are purely mine and do not necessarily reflect the official positions of the organizations that I work with. On Wed, Nov 7, 2018 at 3:33 AM Patrick A. M. Maina via kictanet < kictanet@lists.kictanet.or.ke> wrote:

Bhaves, that is an obvious propaganda piece because it contains distorted half truths, lopsided PoV pushing, innuendo, exaggerations, unwarranted speculations and so forth. Not worth the time spent reading it.

Not to mention that the US and china are in the middle of a dominance battle (and have been ideological opponents for ages).

Ideologically loaded debates are like debates between different religions on the "true way". Positions are deeply entrenched. Lines between facts and belief are nonexistent. Approach is zero sum. Even intellectuals struggle with ideological arguments (unaware of their own bias blind spots).

Have you heard of the NSA and the chaos that it has brought into global cyberspace over the last 10 years? Google/Bing/Yandex it!

The only difference between US and China in cyberspace is that the former subverts internet freedoms *covertly* (and very effectively) using sophisticated backdoors, trojans etc, because the local laws don't allow, whereas the latter (China) operates within a legal framework and acts in the open in the interests of its own people and ideology.

Because no one knows exactly how far/deep the NSA goes, they have a stronger propaganda position, except when they make a mistake.. then people start to wonder (see link).

https://www.politico.com/story/2017/05/15/global-cyberattack-nsa-238412

The US also has a very well coordinated mainstream media that is fiercely committed to its elite's ideology and highly propaganda savvy. Its literally an information warfare army that has been accused many times of brainwashing not just the world, but US citizens as well. Very impressive and amazingly effective.

Impossible to debate propaganda. I give up.

:-D

On Tuesday, November 6, 2018, 9:00:56 PM GMT+3, Bhaves Shah < bhaves.shah@jabjabgroup.com> wrote:

Something of interest - https://qz.com/africa/1447015/china-is-helping-african-countries-control-the... <https://qz.com/africa/1447015/china-is-helping-african-countries-control-the-internet/?utm_content=79373561&utm_medium=social&utm_source=twitter>

Cheers! Bhaves

On 6 Nov 2018, at 7:52 PM, Patrick A. M. Maina <pmaina2000@yahoo.com> wrote:

Thanks for the heads-up Bhaves. This is very interesting and confirms that social media misuse is indeed a global problem (even for advanced economies).

Have a great evening!

On Tuesday, November 6, 2018, 6:54:37 PM GMT+3, Bhaves Shah < bhaves.shah@jabjabgroup.com> wrote:

Patrick:

Your arguments are good and I do respect them, any maybe even Singapore government is listening to you when thwarting fake news - https://www.straitstimes.com/singapore/select-committee-releases-22-proposal...

Bhaves Shah Founder-CEO JabJab Group Ltd +254 707 306639 website - www.jabjabgroup.com twitter - https://twitter.com/jabjabgroup facebook - https://www.facebook.com/jabjabgroup/

On Tue, Nov 6, 2018 at 6:42 PM Bhaves Shah <bhaves.shah@jabjabgroup.com> wrote:

Patrick:

This is my personal opinion, so when I am referring to your point being moot it is my own opinion, however it does not mean that my opinion is the only out there, everyone is there contribute. As for answering your questions see below:

1. The scope is social media apps like Facebook, Whatsapp and Telegram that have been associated with facilitating crime or chaos due to the way they have been designed. Are these apps irreplaceable (e.g. by local legally compliant copycats)? Why? Firstly, technology is about evolution and these apps have evolved. It is not the apps that are creating the content, these are platforms where people are free to create the content, however as the apps have become large scale the issues related to facilitate crime or chaos has also evolved, but in the same manner the ecosystem will also thrive to safeguard with new innovations from abuse. The biggest culprits of the abuse is always governments itself. There is something called choice, no one has imposed these apps on anyone, each individual has a right to use them as they deem fit. However, everyone should know the risks, and that comes through education not government control.

2. Do these apps impose a burden on Government when they are abused? Who should pay for that burden? Why? What burden are your referring to, when national security is at stake, there could be case of such instances, however like I have said these apps have been abused by the same governments to control the masses within the ecosystem. There should be mechanisms or safeguards for abuse, however having full control of such apps and denying citizens to use these platforms for dissemination of information should not be constrained. Are we thriving to become a "police" state where every conversation is looked as a threat to governments.

3. Should they cooperate with Gov to eliminate risks of criminal abuse? If not, why not? Like any legal requirement if there is a criminal element to the dissemination of information, then the burden of proof is for the government to furnish the proof for these companies to comply with the law. However, just by saying "this is a threat" to a government, that does not hold water, the state must prove it's argument, otherwise just as well shut the entire ecosystem, and then deal with the masses and the consequences of free speech.

4. When these apps collect data (resource extraction - just like oil/gold extraction) should a country be compensated? If not, why not? The collection of data happens with every software you use, it is a choice a consumer makes for one to use such an app. The better the informed public is about the data, the better choices one makes. In my opinion parts of GDPR are good for privacy for citizens, and maybe those should be adapted locally if done properly, it should not be a copy and paste exercise.

5. When these apps manipulate people psychologically to promote repeated engagement (thereby distracting local human resources from engaging in local economic activity or reducing productivity) should they pay for that engagement? If not why not? Keep in mind user engagement is a billion dollar 21st century resource! Like any business everything is being manipulated. Look at consumer goods companies that sell their products, there is a form of manipulation going on. For example look at the way the food and beverage companies manipulate people to believing their products are good for health etc when in actual fact they are not good for health. Manipulation of the mind for any product or service is the end game for one to be a customer for that particular product or service - everyone has a choice to make. Its all about education..

6. Should we mortgage our future by allowing irresponsible apps to use advanced psychology to target juveniles and turn them into screen *addicts* and *narcissists*? If yes, how do we gain from that? There is no one mortgaging the future, we all know that there are good and bad with every product and service, millions of people are being abused even by not using these apps, but using physical goods made by consumer companies. The issue is that technology revolution, innovation and disruption will remain no matter how we look at it, there is nothing going to stop that, but like I said everyone needs to play their part in educating the people of the good and evil...Controls don't achieve anything, it just breeds a behaviour of circumvention especially with the younger generation who are growing up in the era of information and technology.

I hope my views are accepted, just as a side note, I am not imposing my beliefs on anyone, everyone has a right to choose and decide, I believe in that freedom of choice, I am of less control, but more education.

Bhaves Shah Founder-CEO JabJab Group Ltd +254 707 306639 website - www.jabjabgroup.com twitter - https://twitter.com/jabjabgroup facebook - https://www.facebook.com/jabjabgroup/

On Tue, Nov 6, 2018 at 6:16 PM Patrick A. M. Maina <pmaina2000@yahoo.com> wrote:

Thanks for your comment Bhaves,

Firstly an argument can't be moot just because you say so hehe (on a light note). You are not addressing the specific points that I have raised: Can you address them so that the refutation is clear and on point?

1. The scope is social media apps like Facebook, Whatsapp and Telegram that have been associated with facilitating crime or chaos due to the way they have been designed. Are these apps irreplaceable (e.g. by local legally compliant copycats)? Why?

2. Do these apps impose a burden on Government when they are abused? Who should pay for that burden? Why?

3. Should they cooperate with Gov to eliminate risks of criminal abuse? If not, why not?

4. When these apps collect data (resource extraction - just like oil/gold extraction) should a country be compensated? If not, why not?

5. When these apps manipulate people psychologically to promote repeated engagement (thereby distracting local human resources from engaging in local economic activity or reducing productivity) should they pay for that engagement? If not why not? Keep in mind user engagement is a billion dollar 21st century resource!

6. Should we mortgage our future by allowing irresponsible apps to use advanced psychology to target juveniles and turn them into screen *addicts* and *narcissists*? If yes, how do we gain from that?

I'd love to read your specific views on each of these points.

Brgds, Patrick.

On Tuesday, November 6, 2018, 5:44:35 PM GMT+3, Bhaves Shah < bhaves.shah@jabjabgroup.com> wrote:

Patrick:

Your argument is moot..

A very simple analogy when email was introduced and now used by the entire world - are you taxing email platforms..So why hold the same argument for these OTT applications - why pay for services that the government never invented in the first place..

The basic premise is that without technology disruption our society will never advance and governments are the worst culprits of such hindrance to society’s advancement in this world..

Governments love to control and that fact alone is a motivator to circumvent such an ecosystem..The premise of human advancement is adapting to new revolutions and disruptions..

Governments should not hinder progress and when it comes to collecting revenues from so called innovators and disruptors then bring such companies to Kenya to set up base and provide them with incentives and ask them to employ Kenyan citizens etc - drive such an encouragement with finding suitable models for advancement of societies..

Taxation is just a cheap way of protectionism - it does not work..It impedes human progress..

Cheers! Bhaves

On 6 Nov 2018, at 5:18 PM, Patrick A. M. Maina via kictanet < kictanet@lists.kictanet.or.ke> wrote:

OK I'm back (briefly). Thanks for your points Mr. Okobi,

Actually the only difference between "taxes" and "fines" is the definition. Taxes can be based on anything - not just earnings. Example: What is VAT? A tax on consumption! Why should you pay extra tax on consumption after you have already been taxed on income? Does that make sense? Is that not fining or penalizing people for enjoying their *already taxed* money?

Another example: why tax food or books? These are essential must-have items. I should not be taxed to eat or educate my kids. Isn't that not a form of "existence tax"? What about tax on sanitary pads? Is that not discriminating against girls (they end up paying more taxes than boys because its a gender-specific essential purchase). Why tax people for keeping clean babies (diaper tax)? Why tax people for going to work (fuel VAT)? etc etc. I'd love to hear your views about the rationality of these taxes.

Oh, btw, even the fines one pays in court are a form of compliance/obedience tax. Those who follow the rules pay less taxes (thus encouraging compliance). Anyway, lets not get stuck on definitions but I'd urge you to read some good books on taxation & economics to get a grip of this.

Okay, who has said anything about taxing "online services" or "all online services"? That is a strawman argument that diverts attention from the real issue. I am only talking about online apps with high potential for *abuse at scale*, which imposes a heavy cost burden on Governments and/or society (e.g. Facebook, Whatsapp, Telegram etc). These apps (and their problematic architectures) are well known and Governments worldwide are scrambling to find solutions to the problems that they have enabled/amplified by design.

Why should Kenyan taxpayers *subsidize* the fixing of costly problems caused/facilitated/amplified by these foreign billion dollar apps who don't contribute their share of taxes locally or accept their share of responsibility? This is a form of reverse taxation where our Government is effectively "paying" taxes to Facebook and Whatsapp!

Tobacco analogy might help elucidate the issue: When tax funds are spent on lung cancer treatment for cigarette smokers, isn't that a subsidy paid by taxpayers - including non-smokers, to Tobacco companies? Looks like a no-brainer nowadays but it took a while (and similar debates) for Tobacco companies to accept because it takes decades for lung cancer to form. Many even paid for fake scientific studies to disprove claims that Tobacco smoking is harmful. Very similar to what some notorious data aggregating multinationals have been accused of doing.

Glad that you accept that there is indeed a cost burden for Government (and society) from fake news that is amplified by these social media platforms like Facebook and whatsapp. At least we have a common understanding that there is a real problem.

Is there data? Yes, the data does exist which directly associates these apps (e.g. Whatsapp & facebook) to crime, addiction, subversion, mob violence and deaths. See my earlier post on this with several links.

Why are we so attached to these apps? How many jobs do they create here? How do we benefit from them such that they are not irreplaceable by local clones? Perhaps that is the question that we should be asking.

The 21st Century tax innovations that I am proposing may be difficult to grasp because they does not yet exist and require a non-traditional view of how businesses operate (especially those based on the Silicon Valley VC and Data Mining model). But that is where the world is heading.

Citizens data is a national product. Should off-shore data aggregation / mining multinationals get it for free? Should they be allowed to manipulate/brainwash us or our children - in order to monetize the ensuing engagement - and then let us bear whatever consequences that ensue downstream? Should they be allowed to facilitate the spread of disinformation by design - even with the risk of causing harm or deaths to innocent victims? Should they impose new/heavier cost burdens on governments. Should they be allowed to facilitate and protect criminals by design?

These are 21st century issues that didn't even exist 10 years ago. They require 21st century thinking and solutions.

Cheers & have a great evening! Patrick.

On Tuesday, November 6, 2018, 3:47:48 PM GMT+3, Ebele Okobi < ebeleokobi@fb.com> wrote:

If your model is not revenue based, then what you are talking about is not a tax, it’s a fine.

I’m curious as to what data you are using to determine that online services are “net negative”? Is this your assessment for Kenya specifically, or is your contention that globally, all online services provide net negative value to the world? There are multiple studies on the economic and social benefit of online services, so I am quite interested in learning of those which substantiate the net negative claim.

Also, is this specific to Facebook products, or all online services, including those created by Kenyans?

And would this tax regime be a global tax-in other words, should it also apply to Kenyan companies operating globally? For example, for those on this list with Kenyan companies offering online services, should this tax regime apply to them in Kenya? Should, for ex., Uganda apply a similar regime for Kenyan companies offering online services there?

In terms of the metrics you propose-Facebook is a public company, as are many companies offering online services. What is the relevance of funds raised in this context? In addition-valuation for a public company is a completely different metric than funds raised-curious as to how this would be made predictable, given that a good environment for economic growth depends to a great extent on a rationalized policy and regulatory environment?

As for the security issues-i have acknowledged previously the challenges and there, and there is excellent opportunity for collective thinking on how to deal with platforms that are a mirror of the divisions and risks in societies (which we are doing!) but nothing recommended below addresses or mitigates any of those risks. I am mindful that the most violent periods politically in Kenya predated Facebook and WhatsApp, so the notion that these platforms cause violence, or that taxing them would remove security risk is unsupported by any data whatsoever.

On Nov 6, 2018, at 12:12 PM, Patrick A. M. Maina <pmaina2000@yahoo.com> wrote:

Whatsapp is not monetised and does not derive any revenue from anywhere yet (this will change next year). This should have no bearing at all on whether Whatsapp should be taxed or not. It is a billion dollar multinational company operating on a non-traditional business model. This means that it is our tax regulations which need to be *modernized* to rope in 21st century global business models that add a local cost burden on the government (e.g. increasing costs of security, turning kids into narcissistic screen zombies - with resulting impact on learning and metal health etc) yet do not contribute to the local kitty - which is unfair considering that they are *billion dollar* companies.

To put it differently, any shilling that Government spends to mitigate the risks of fake news in whatsapp or Facebook (e.g. buying ads to push correct position) is a subsidy paid to Facebook and Whatsapp. This is money that could have gone to health sector to buy medicine, sanitation for clean water or agriculture for food security. Instead it goes to fix a problem created by an entity that has net negative value to the economy. Not all innovation is good or beneficial!

How to tax Silicon valley business models: Use the same metrics investors use: 1. Estimated number of users / downloads 2. Risk / benefit factor (e.g. security risks or impact on jobs/wages) 3. Valuation (funds raised)

Silicon valley companies are designed to make losses for decades even as they move massive amounts of money (literally avoiding taxes by exploiting obsolete legislation). The real business they are in is the fundraising business but that is under the tax radar.

Signing off. Will check back later for updates.

Patrick

On Tuesday, November 6, 2018, 2:45:18 PM GMT+3, Ebele Okobi via kictanet < kictanet@lists.kictanet.or.ke> wrote:

This is a fascinating and very timely conversation. As I’m sure all can imagine, I have many thoughts. 😁 I do have a question, first-how much revenue does WhatsApp derive from Kenya?

On Nov 6, 2018, at 7:45 AM, evelyne wanjiku via kictanet < kictanet@lists.kictanet.or.ke> wrote:

Dear All,

In suppport of Mr. Patrick Mainas Maina's input.

The government needs to consider taxing the platforms. This is because they make money from us trade in our data and the revenue genereted benefits their countries and not ours given that they do not pay taxes here. This has been considered in Europe. In africa however, no country can apply this taxes on its own due to our 'economically colonised' position our countries find ourselves in. This means that the easiest option for our government becomes the easy route which is taxing the end user. This is counterproductive especially for those who use social media for productive activities. Therefore only a united african front would be succesful in getting these giants to pay up and keep our governments from considering taxing citizens. It is also important to consider that calls made on whatsapp, skype,viber cost less. This means that there is revenue reduction for the companies providing voice services. Considering that these companies are locally based and pay taxes to our government, why should their revenue be reduced by services that do not pay taxes to us? I suppose this is the logic used by countries like the UAE that block the use of whatsapp to make calls whithin their borders.

As for the ability of whatsapp to cause chaos, this is true and has been proven and whatsapp itself has acknowlegded this fact in countries like India and Pakistan. These are countries where fake news and inflammatory messages delivered mainly through whatsapp have led to chaos that have led to deaths of many people. Whatsapp has responded by putting in measures to ensure that such spread of hate news can be controlled from their end. Whatsapp also remains open open to suggestions as to how this can be contolled and is actively leading research in this area.

The question therefore should be, should we leave Whatsapp to be in charge of what is transfered on their platform and the consequences that follow? Should government have a role in monitoring how whatsapp is being used for harmful activities. Overall what is the role of government and the various platforms in ensuring this platform and others are used responsibly?

Good day to all

On Tuesday, November 6, 2018, 3:44:22 AM GMT+3, Francis Monyango via kictanet <kictanet@lists.kictanet.or.ke> wrote:

Morning Mr Patrick Maina,

You mention how messaging apps facilitate fake news, crime and other things. You also lay peace,development on a scale versus human rights such as free speech and privacy. Sir, it is good to be objective and factual. Last year Kenya had 10 months of hot politics. Research shows that the Kenyan authorities did not attempt to control, disrupt or shutdown the internet. Hence this tired line of the country going into flames because of the internet (messaging apps) doesn't hold any weight. The number of Kenyan users of these messaging apps and other factors such as social class of users, bots affect the impact of the internet in democratic transitions. The broadcast media shut down in January should tell which communication medium has more impact on the Kenyan society. 😉

I believe your intention was to state why companies that offer over the top services should pay taxes here. That is a different argument all together with a different set of facts unless you are advocating for a blanket over the top tax to be paid by users to avoid 'spread of gossip and lies' just like in Uganda.

On Fri, 2 Nov 2018, 13:26 Patrick A. M. Maina via kictanet, < kictanet@lists.kictanet.or.ke> wrote:

These messaging apps facilitate fake news, crime, foreign meddling (to subvert democracy), brainwashing and hate speech on a massive scale. We know this for a fact.

So as citizens and stakeholders in our country, we need to ask: what do we value more, is it things that improve peace, stability, economic development and democracy, OR, is it some utopian, unbounded notion of free speech and privacy that is disconnected from our contextual reality (e.g. protects criminals, malicious defamers and violence mongers in equal proportion as law abiding citizens)?

The companies running these uncontrolled messaging platforms will not be impacted if our country goes up in flames. They cost governments tons of money in maintaining internal security (especially during democratic transitions - sometimes to existential levels) yet they don't pay any taxes... and mark you, they are *billion dollar* companies! This also means that funds that ought to have bought, say, medicine to save lives gets diverted to fix an *imported problem* with no path to holding the parent company accountable for damage caused.

Gok needs to modernize our tax laws, which currently are based on the traditional "for profit" enterprise model and thus out of touch with Silicon Valley's "make losses by design" model. The basic assumption that entrepreneurship is a profit oriented endeavour does not hold for Silicon Valley VC subsidized companies. They are designed to operate as loss makers for decades (but still move *massive* amounts of financial resources at massive scale). This has the technical effect of *tax avoidance* because massive profits *are* still being made by the offshore VCs - which denies governments billions in taxes (despite imposing local burdens as illustrated above).

A smart government would create modernized laws to tax VC funded Silicon Valley companies e.g. on the basis of *funding rounds* and *valuations* because this is their *real* business i.e. its how the investors intend to make money from day one - and the primary reason they push for perpetual losses!

There should also be a turnover tax and VAT on online revenue earned in Kenya by foreign billion dollar internet companies (e.g. advertisement revenue and appstore revenue), to level the tax playing field for local businesses. Similar to what other countries like the UK are working on:

https://www.wired.co.uk/article/facebook-uk-tax-bill <https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=https-3A__www.wired.co.uk_article_facebook-2Duk-2Dtax-2Dbill&d=DwMFaQ&c=5VD0RTtNlTh3ycd41b3MUw&r=ArvepG4_wcNu_X9xi3nb_Xa9WsGLVfmK6mwPdVONOTE&m=t74BOKebo761FiLlF3RuH-SUnKGeYceUv24Gp4-Sj5E&s=JpThF3QS5XBibcjJ1Aylg-RSK6s4MaGJtnzz9ILzC9k&e=>

CA will obviously have a hard time monitoring and enforcing though, under the current traditional framework due to technical barriers (e.g. encryption) and also due to jurisdictional challenges.

So the other thing that CA really needs to do once the rules are set is to consider blocking non-compliant foreign apps completely at ISP level (especially now that political temperatures are cool and people and thinking clearly). Lets have local startups filling any gaps with copycat apps China-style.

To be clear, I support free speech and privacy. But I also support peace, stability, safe neighbourhoods, democracy, sovereignty and economic predictability!

A delicate balance is needed to maximise the rights of law abiding citizens while minimising the ability of those with evil intent to exploit basic rights in order to harm the innocent.

Good day. Patrick.

On Thursday, November 1, 2018, 11:00:44 PM GMT+3, Grace Githaiga via kictanet <kictanet@lists.kictanet.or.ke> wrote:

Kenya is considering regulating online services such as WhatsApp and Skype in a radical move that could force the internet-based service providers to share data with the government.

The Communications Authority of Kenya (CA) is in search of a consultant to study and determine how the so-called over-the-top services (OTTS) operated by groups such as Facebook, which runs WhatsApp, and Skype owner Microsoft, could be regulated. Read on: https://www.nation.co.ke/business/Telcos-regulator-seeks-to-monitor-WhatsApp... <https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=https-3A__www.nation.co.ke_business_Telcos-2Dregulator-2Dseeks-2Dto-2Dmonitor-2DWhatsApp_996-2D4833020-2Dfn9u7s_index.html&d=DwMFaQ&c=5VD0RTtNlTh3ycd41b3MUw&r=ArvepG4_wcNu_X9xi3nb_Xa9WsGLVfmK6mwPdVONOTE&m=t74BOKebo761FiLlF3RuH-SUnKGeYceUv24Gp4-Sj5E&s=cndeiTd4wVC4D6EsU4xGNLbSnmIyYUhzbfcRXK3rLjQ&e=>

Best regards

Githaiga, Grace

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Thanks for your response and views Bhaves.  I understand your perspective and there are some pertinent points there e.g. the risk of a degeneration into a "police state" situation. My response to that would be: What is the status quo? Status quo is that Government *already* has a limited right to breach your privacy provided certain processes and procedures are followed. Example, the police might need a court order to raid someone's house; or they might act on reasonable suspicion to search your car; they can put roadblocks all over the place (which we accept as a public-interest solution to insecurity and/or drunk driving deterrent). There are cameras all over major cities monitoring your every move - which help the police in solving crimes.  There are checks and balances in place e.g. judicial interventions as well as constitutional requirement for fair administrative action (among others).  What I can see in status quo is a balance between privacy and safety. Can it be abused? Yes. Does impunity exist, yes. I'm not deluding myself. However, will requiring foreign internet firms to comply to Kenyan court orders, and pay for local resource extraction, make things worse? I don't think so! Like you said, people will simply opt out of  such apps (which is actually a good thing imo - but that's another debate for another day). Also, a key theme in your response is to place the onus on Government for educating the end users (millions of people) so they can make wise decisions. Who should bear this cost? Where should the funds come from?  I don't think its fair to say the Kenyan taxpayer should pay because these are *imported burdens* from companies that profit handsomely from mining 21st century resources (data and attention) without compensating the source countries (even as they significantly raise administrative costs in the target countries and increase destabilization risks).  Have a great evening.Patrick. On Tuesday, November 6, 2018, 6:43:15 PM GMT+3, Bhaves Shah <bhaves.shah@jabjabgroup.com> wrote: Patrick: This is my personal opinion, so when I am referring to your point being moot it is my own opinion, however it does not mean that my opinion is the only out there, everyone is there contribute. As for answering your questions see below: 1. The scope is social media apps like Facebook, Whatsapp and Telegram that have been associated with facilitating crime or chaos due to the way they have been designed. Are these apps irreplaceable (e.g. by local legally compliant copycats)? Why?Firstly, technology is about evolution and these apps have evolved. It is not the apps that are creating the content, these are platforms where people are free to create the content, however as the apps have become large scale the issues related to facilitate crime or chaos has also evolved, but in the same manner the ecosystem will also thrive to safeguard with new innovations from abuse. The biggest culprits of the abuse is always governments itself. There is something called choice, no one has imposed these apps on anyone, each individual has a right to use them as they deem fit. However, everyone should know the risks, and that comes through education not government control.  2. Do these apps impose a burden on Government when they are abused? Who should pay for that burden? Why? What burden are your referring to, when national security is at stake, there could be case of such instances, however like I have said these apps have been abused by the same governments to control the masses within the ecosystem. There should be mechanisms or safeguards for abuse, however having full control of such apps and denying citizens to use these platforms for dissemination of information should not be constrained. Are we thriving to become a "police" state where every conversation is looked as a threat to governments.  3. Should they cooperate with Gov to eliminate risks of criminal abuse? If not, why not?Like any legal requirement if there is a criminal element to the dissemination of information, then the burden of proof is for the government to furnish the proof for these companies to comply with the law. However, just by saying "this is a threat" to a government, that does not hold water, the state must prove it's argument, otherwise just as well shut the entire ecosystem, and then deal with the masses and the consequences of free speech. 4. When these apps collect data (resource extraction - just like oil/gold extraction) should a country be compensated? If not, why not?The collection of data happens with every software you use, it is a choice a consumer makes for one to use such an app. The better the informed public is about the data, the better choices one makes. In my opinion parts of GDPR are good for privacy for citizens, and maybe those should be adapted locally if done properly, it should not be a copy and paste exercise.  5. When these apps manipulate people psychologically to promote repeated engagement (thereby distracting local human resources from engaging in local economic activity or reducing productivity) should they pay for that engagement? If not why not? Keep in mind user engagement is a billion dollar 21st century resource!Like any business everything is being manipulated. Look at consumer goods companies that sell their products, there is a form of manipulation going on. For example look at the way the food and beverage companies manipulate people to believing their products are good for health etc when in actual fact they are not good for health. Manipulation of the mind for any product or service is the end game for one to be a customer for that particular product or service - everyone has a choice to make. Its all about education.. 6. Should we mortgage our future by allowing irresponsible apps to use advanced psychology to target juveniles and turn them into screen *addicts* and *narcissists*?  If yes, how do we gain from that?There is no one mortgaging the future, we all know that there are good and bad with every product and service, millions of people are being abused even by not using these apps, but using physical goods made by consumer companies. The issue is that technology revolution, innovation and disruption will remain no matter how we look at it, there is nothing going to stop that, but like I said everyone needs to play their part in educating the people of the good and evil...Controls don't achieve anything, it just breeds a behaviour of circumvention especially with the younger generation who are growing up in the era of information and technology.  I hope my views are accepted, just as a side note, I am not imposing my beliefs on anyone, everyone has a right to choose and decide, I believe in that freedom of choice, I am of less control, but more education. Bhaves ShahFounder-CEOJabJab Group Ltd+254 707 306639website - www.jabjabgroup.com twitter - https://twitter.com/jabjabgroupfacebook - https://www.facebook.com/jabjabgroup/ On Tue, Nov 6, 2018 at 6:16 PM Patrick A. M. Maina <pmaina2000@yahoo.com> wrote: Thanks for your comment Bhaves,  Firstly an argument can't be moot just because you say so hehe (on a light note). You are not addressing the specific points that I have raised: Can you address them so that the refutation is clear and on point? 1. The scope is social media apps like Facebook, Whatsapp and Telegram that have been associated with facilitating crime or chaos due to the way they have been designed. Are these apps irreplaceable (e.g. by local legally compliant copycats)? Why? 2. Do these apps impose a burden on Government when they are abused? Who should pay for that burden? Why? 3. Should they cooperate with Gov to eliminate risks of criminal abuse? If not, why not? 4. When these apps collect data (resource extraction - just like oil/gold extraction) should a country be compensated? If not, why not? 5. When these apps manipulate people psychologically to promote repeated engagement (thereby distracting local human resources from engaging in local economic activity or reducing productivity) should they pay for that engagement? If not why not? Keep in mind user engagement is a billion dollar 21st century resource! 6. Should we mortgage our future by allowing irresponsible apps to use advanced psychology to target juveniles and turn them into screen *addicts* and *narcissists*?  If yes, how do we gain from that? I'd love to read your specific views on each of these points.  Brgds,Patrick. On Tuesday, November 6, 2018, 5:44:35 PM GMT+3, Bhaves Shah <bhaves.shah@jabjabgroup.com> wrote: Patrick: Your argument is moot.. A very simple analogy when email was introduced and now used by the entire world - are you taxing email platforms..So why hold the same argument for these OTT applications - why pay for services that the government never invented in the first place.. The basic premise is that without technology disruption our society will never advance and governments are the worst culprits of such hindrance to society’s advancement in this world.. Governments love to control and that fact alone is a motivator to circumvent such an ecosystem..The premise of human advancement is adapting to new revolutions and disruptions.. Governments should not hinder progress and when it comes to collecting revenues from so called innovators and disruptors then bring such companies to Kenya to set up base and provide them with incentives and ask them to employ Kenyan citizens etc - drive such an encouragement with finding suitable models for advancement of societies.. Taxation is just a cheap way of protectionism - it does not work..It impedes human progress.. Cheers!Bhaves On 6 Nov 2018, at 5:18 PM, Patrick A. M. Maina via kictanet <kictanet@lists.kictanet.or.ke> wrote: OK I'm back (briefly). Thanks for your points Mr. Okobi, Actually the only difference between "taxes" and "fines" is the definition. Taxes can be based on anything - not just earnings. Example: What is VAT? A tax on consumption! Why should you pay extra tax on consumption after you have already been taxed on income? Does that make sense? Is that not fining or penalizing people for enjoying their *already taxed* money?  Another example: why tax food or books? These are essential must-have items. I should not be taxed to eat or educate my kids. Isn't that not a form of "existence tax"? What about tax on sanitary pads? Is that not discriminating against girls (they end up paying more taxes than boys because its a gender-specific essential purchase). Why tax people for keeping clean babies (diaper tax)? Why tax people for going to work (fuel VAT)? etc etc. I'd love to hear your views about the rationality of these taxes. Oh, btw, even the fines one pays in court are a form of compliance/obedience tax. Those who follow the rules pay less taxes (thus encouraging compliance). Anyway, lets not get stuck on definitions but I'd urge you to read some good books on taxation & economics to get a grip of this. Okay, who has said anything about taxing "online services" or "all online services"? That is a strawman argument that diverts attention from the real issue. I am only talking about online apps with high potential for *abuse at scale*, which imposes a heavy cost burden on Governments and/or society (e.g. Facebook, Whatsapp, Telegram etc). These apps (and their problematic architectures) are well known and Governments worldwide are scrambling to find solutions to the problems that they have enabled/amplified by design.  Why should Kenyan taxpayers *subsidize* the fixing of costly problems caused/facilitated/amplified by these foreign billion dollar apps who don't contribute their share of taxes locally or accept their share of responsibility? This is a form of reverse taxation where our Government is effectively "paying" taxes to Facebook and Whatsapp! Tobacco analogy might help elucidate the issue: When tax funds are spent on lung cancer treatment for cigarette smokers, isn't that a subsidy paid by taxpayers - including non-smokers, to Tobacco companies? Looks like a no-brainer nowadays but it took a while (and similar debates) for Tobacco companies to accept because it takes decades for lung cancer to form. Many even paid for fake scientific studies to disprove claims that Tobacco smoking is harmful. Very similar to what some notorious data aggregating multinationals have been accused of doing.   Glad that you accept that there is indeed a cost burden for Government (and society) from fake news that is amplified by these social media platforms like Facebook and whatsapp. At least we have a common understanding that there is a real problem. Is there data? Yes, the data does exist which directly associates these apps (e.g. Whatsapp & facebook) to crime, addiction, subversion, mob violence and deaths. See my earlier post on this with several links. Why are we so attached to these apps? How many jobs do they create here? How do we benefit from them such that they are not irreplaceable by local clones? Perhaps that is the question that we should be asking. The 21st Century tax innovations that I am proposing may be difficult to grasp because they does not yet exist and require a non-traditional view of how businesses operate (especially those based on the Silicon Valley VC and Data Mining model). But that is where the world is heading.  Citizens data is a national product. Should off-shore data aggregation / mining multinationals get it for free? Should they be allowed to manipulate/brainwash us or our children - in order to monetize the ensuing engagement - and then let us bear whatever consequences that ensue downstream? Should they be allowed to facilitate the spread of disinformation by design - even with the risk of causing harm or deaths to innocent victims? Should they impose new/heavier cost burdens on governments. Should they be allowed to facilitate and protect criminals by design?  These are 21st century issues that didn't even exist 10 years ago. They require 21st century thinking and solutions. Cheers & have a great evening!Patrick. On Tuesday, November 6, 2018, 3:47:48 PM GMT+3, Ebele Okobi <ebeleokobi@fb.com> wrote: If your model is not revenue based, then what you are talking about is not a tax, it’s a fine.  I’m curious as to what data you are using to determine that online services are “net negative”? Is this your assessment for Kenya specifically, or is your contention that globally, all online services provide net negative value to the world? There are multiple studies on the economic and social benefit of online services, so I am quite interested in learning of those which substantiate the net negative claim. Also, is this specific to Facebook products, or all online services, including those created by Kenyans? And would this tax regime be a global tax-in other words, should it also apply to Kenyan companies operating globally? For example, for those on this list with Kenyan companies offering online services, should this tax regime apply to them in Kenya? Should, for ex., Uganda apply a similar regime for Kenyan companies offering online services there? In terms of the metrics you propose-Facebook is a public company, as are many companies offering online services. What is the relevance of funds raised in this context? In addition-valuation for a public company is a completely different metric than funds raised-curious as to how this would be made  predictable, given that a good environment for economic growth depends to a great extent on a rationalized policy and regulatory environment? As for the security issues-i have acknowledged previously the challenges and there, and there is excellent opportunity for collective thinking on how to deal with platforms that are a mirror of the divisions and risks in societies (which we are doing!) but nothing recommended below addresses or mitigates  any of those risks. I am mindful that the most violent periods politically in Kenya predated Facebook and WhatsApp, so the notion that these platforms cause violence, or that taxing them would remove security risk is unsupported by any data whatsoever. On Nov 6, 2018, at 12:12 PM, Patrick A. M. Maina <pmaina2000@yahoo.com> wrote: Whatsapp is not monetised and does not derive any revenue from anywhere yet (this will change next year). This should have no bearing at all on whether Whatsapp should be taxed or not. It is a billion dollar multinational company operating on a non-traditional business model. This means that it is our tax regulations which need to be *modernized* to rope in 21st century global business models that add a local cost burden on the government (e.g. increasing costs of security, turning kids into narcissistic screen zombies - with resulting impact on learning and metal health etc) yet do not contribute to the local kitty - which is unfair considering that they are *billion dollar* companies.  To put it differently, any shilling that Government spends to mitigate the risks of fake news in whatsapp or Facebook (e.g. buying ads to push correct position) is a subsidy paid to Facebook and Whatsapp. This is money that could have gone to health sector to buy medicine, sanitation for clean water or agriculture for food security. Instead it goes to fix a problem created by an entity that has net negative value to the economy. Not all innovation is good or beneficial! How to tax Silicon valley business models: Use the same metrics investors use:1. Estimated number of users /  downloads2. Risk / benefit factor (e.g. security risks or impact on jobs/wages)3. Valuation (funds raised) Silicon valley companies are designed to make losses for decades even as they move massive amounts of money (literally avoiding taxes by exploiting obsolete legislation). The real business they are in is the fundraising business but that is under the tax radar. Signing off. Will check back later for updates. Patrick On Tuesday, November 6, 2018, 2:45:18 PM GMT+3, Ebele Okobi via kictanet <kictanet@lists.kictanet.or.ke> wrote: This is a fascinating and very timely conversation. As I’m sure all can imagine, I have many thoughts. 😁I do have a question, first-how much revenue does WhatsApp derive from Kenya? On Nov 6, 2018, at 7:45 AM, evelyne wanjiku via kictanet <kictanet@lists.kictanet.or.ke> wrote: Dear All, In suppport of Mr. Patrick Mainas Maina's input. The government needs to consider taxing the platforms. This is because they make money from us trade in our data and the revenue genereted benefits their countries and not ours given that they do not pay taxes here. This has been considered in Europe. In africa however, no country can apply this taxes on its own due to our 'economically colonised' position our countries find ourselves in. This means that the easiest option for our government becomes the easy route which is taxing the end user. This is counterproductive especially for those who use social media for productive activities. Therefore only a united african front would be succesful in getting these giants to pay up and keep our governments from considering taxing citizens. It is also important to consider that calls made on whatsapp, skype,viber cost less. This means that there is revenue reduction for the companies providing voice services. Considering that these companies are locally based and pay taxes to our government, why should their revenue be reduced by services that do not pay taxes to us? I suppose this is the logic used by countries like the UAE that block the use of whatsapp to make calls whithin their borders.  As for the ability of whatsapp to cause chaos, this is true and has been proven and whatsapp itself has acknowlegded this fact in countries like India and Pakistan. These are countries where fake news and inflammatory messages delivered mainly through whatsapp have led to chaos that have led to deaths of many people.  Whatsapp has responded by putting in measures to ensure that such spread of hate news can be controlled from their end. Whatsapp also remains open open to suggestions as to how this can be contolled and is actively leading research in this area. The question therefore should be, should we leave Whatsapp to be in charge of what is transfered on their platform and the consequences that follow?  Should government have a role in monitoring how whatsapp is being used for harmful activities. Overall what is the role of government and the various platforms in ensuring this platform and others are used responsibly? Good day to all On Tuesday, November 6, 2018, 3:44:22 AM GMT+3, Francis Monyango via kictanet <kictanet@lists.kictanet.or.ke> wrote: Morning Mr Patrick Maina, You mention how messaging apps facilitate fake news, crime and other things. You also lay peace,development on a scale versus human rights such as free speech and privacy. Sir, it is good to be objective and factual. Last year Kenya had 10 months of hot politics. Research shows that the Kenyan authorities did not attempt to control, disrupt or shutdown the internet. Hence this tired line of the country going into flames because of the internet (messaging apps) doesn't hold any weight. The number of Kenyan users of these messaging apps and other factors such as social class of users, bots affect the impact of the internet in democratic transitions. The broadcast media shut down in January should tell which communication medium has more impact on the Kenyan society. 😉 I believe your intention was to state why companies that offer over the top services should pay taxes here. That is a different argument all together with a different set of facts unless you are advocating for a blanket over the top tax to be paid by users to avoid 'spread of gossip and lies' just like in Uganda. On Fri, 2 Nov 2018, 13:26 Patrick A. M. Maina via kictanet, <kictanet@lists.kictanet.or.ke> wrote: These messaging apps facilitate fake news, crime, foreign meddling (to subvert democracy), brainwashing and hate speech on a massive scale. We know this for a fact.  So as citizens and stakeholders in our country, we need to ask: what do we value more, is it things that improve peace, stability, economic development and democracy, OR, is it some utopian, unbounded notion of free speech and privacy that is disconnected from our contextual reality (e.g. protects criminals, malicious defamers and violence mongers in equal proportion as law abiding citizens)? The companies running these uncontrolled messaging platforms will not be impacted if our country goes up in flames. They cost governments tons of money in maintaining internal security (especially during democratic transitions - sometimes to existential levels) yet they don't pay any taxes... and mark you, they are *billion dollar* companies! This also means that funds that ought to have bought, say, medicine to save lives gets diverted to fix an *imported problem* with no path to holding the parent company accountable for damage caused. Gok needs to modernize our tax laws, which currently are based on the traditional "for profit" enterprise model and thus out of touch with Silicon Valley's "make losses by design" model. The basic assumption that entrepreneurship is a profit oriented endeavour does not hold for Silicon Valley VC subsidized companies. They are designed to operate as loss makers for decades (but still move *massive* amounts of financial resources at massive scale). This has the technical effect of *tax avoidance* because massive profits *are* still being made by the offshore VCs - which denies governments billions in taxes (despite imposing local burdens as illustrated above).  A smart government would create modernized laws to tax VC funded Silicon Valley companies e.g. on the basis of *funding rounds* and *valuations* because this is their *real* business i.e. its how the investors intend to make money from day one - and the primary reason they push for perpetual losses! There should also be a turnover tax and VAT on online revenue earned in Kenya by foreign billion dollar internet companies (e.g. advertisement revenue and appstore revenue), to level the tax playing field for local businesses. Similar to what other countries like the UK are working on:  https://www.wired.co.uk/article/facebook-uk-tax-bill CA will obviously have a hard time monitoring and enforcing though, under the current traditional framework due to technical barriers (e.g. encryption) and also due to jurisdictional challenges.  So the other thing that CA really needs to do once the rules are set is to consider blocking non-compliant foreign apps completely at ISP level (especially now that political temperatures are cool and people and thinking clearly). Lets have local startups filling any gaps with copycat apps China-style.  To be clear, I support free speech and privacy. But I also support peace, stability, safe neighbourhoods, democracy, sovereignty and economic predictability! A delicate balance is needed to maximise the rights of law abiding citizens while minimising the ability of those with evil intent to exploit basic rights in order to harm the innocent. Good day.Patrick. On Thursday, November 1, 2018, 11:00:44 PM GMT+3, Grace Githaiga via kictanet <kictanet@lists.kictanet.or.ke> wrote: Kenya is considering regulating online services such as WhatsApp and Skype in a radical move that could force the internet-based service providers to share data with the government. The Communications Authority of Kenya (CA) is in search of a consultant to study and determine how the so-called over-the-top services (OTTS) operated by groups such as Facebook, which runs WhatsApp, and Skype owner Microsoft, could be regulated. Read on:https://www.nation.co.ke/business/Telcos-regulator-seeks-to-monitor-WhatsApp... Best regards Githaiga, Grace Co-Convenor Kenya ICT Action Network (KICTANet) Twitter:@ggithaiga Tel: 254722701495 Skype: gracegithaiga Alternate email: ggithaiga@hotmail.com Linkedin: https://www.linkedin.com/in/gracegithaiga www.kictanet.or.ke "Change only happens when ordinary people get involved, get engaged and come together to demand it. I am asking you to believe. 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By extending this logic - then you would suggest we tax anyone using Gmail, or anyone hosting their web site or email services in another country? Gmail is also an "Over The Top" service. WhatsApp hurts telecom companies - because telecom companies (mobile cell and fixed wire) made money from SMS's and Voice services. It hurts because WhatsApp works well and is innovative - you can use it (and many other similar services) to send Text, Pictures, Documents, Video, Voice Memo's and make voice calls. What you are perhaps suggesting is all innovation should be taxed? Perhaps its time that the legacy telecom companies became more innovative themselves or simply provide the connectivity (and there is still lots of opportunity there). Voice and Text is just data. Data providers are taxed locally. Data usage is increasing so I presume Data companies are paying more and more tax. As to abusive use (by any message conveying system) - humans will continue to be "harmful" and unfortunately will choose the easiest form of communications in order to group together - unless they have no reason to do so. I've no idea how to change human nature but I guess working on reasons for people to not become "harmful" would be a valid step. Difficult. On 11/06/2018 09:43 AM, evelyne wanjiku via kictanet wrote:

Dear All,

In suppport of Mr. Patrick Mainas Maina's input.

The government needs to consider taxing the platforms. This is because they make money from us trade in our data and the revenue genereted benefits their countries and not ours given that they do not pay taxes here. This has been considered in Europe. In africa however, no country can apply this taxes on its own due to our 'economically colonised' position our countries find ourselves in. This means that the easiest option for our government becomes the easy route which is taxing the end user. This is counterproductive especially for those who use social media for productive activities. Therefore only a united african front would be succesful in getting these giants to pay up and keep our governments from considering taxing citizens. It is also important to consider that calls made on whatsapp, skype,viber cost less. This means that there is revenue reduction for the companies providing voice services. Considering that these companies are locally based and pay taxes to our government, why should their revenue be reduced by services that do not pay taxes to us? I suppose this is the logic used by countries like the UAE that block the use of whatsapp to make calls whithin their borders. 

As for the ability of whatsapp to cause chaos, this is true and has been proven and whatsapp itself has acknowlegded this fact in countries like India and Pakistan. These are countries where fake news and inflammatory messages delivered mainly through whatsapp have led to chaos that have led to deaths of many people.  Whatsapp has responded by putting in measures to ensure that such spread of hate news can be controlled from their end. Whatsapp also remains open open to suggestions as to how this can be contolled and is actively leading research in this area.

The question therefore should be, should we leave Whatsapp to be in charge of what is transfered on their platform and the consequences that follow?  Should government have a role in monitoring how whatsapp is being used for harmful activities. Overall what is the role of government and the various platforms in ensuring this platform and others are used responsibly?

Good day to all

On Tuesday, November 6, 2018, 3:44:22 AM GMT+3, Francis Monyango via kictanet <kictanet@lists.kictanet.or.ke> wrote:

Morning Mr Patrick Maina,

You mention how messaging apps facilitate fake news, crime and other things. You also lay peace,development on a scale versus human rights such as free speech and privacy.  Sir, it is good to be objective and factual. Last year Kenya had 10 months of hot politics. Research shows that the Kenyan authorities did not attempt to control, disrupt or shutdown the internet. Hence this tired line of the country going into flames because of the internet (messaging apps) doesn't hold any weight. The number of Kenyan users of these messaging apps and other factors such as social class of users, bots affect the impact of the internet in democratic transitions. The broadcast media shut down in January should tell which communication medium has more impact on the Kenyan society. 😉   I believe your intention was to state why companies that offer over the top services should pay taxes here. That is a different argument all together with a different set of facts unless you are advocating for a blanket over the top tax to be paid by users to avoid 'spread of gossip and lies' just like in Uganda.

On Fri, 2 Nov 2018, 13:26 Patrick A. M. Maina via kictanet, <kictanet@lists.kictanet.or.ke <mailto:kictanet@lists.kictanet.or.ke>> wrote:

These messaging apps facilitate fake news, crime, foreign meddling (to subvert democracy), brainwashing and hate speech on a massive scale. We know this for a fact. 

So as citizens and stakeholders in our country, we need to ask: what do we value more, is it things that improve peace, stability, economic development and democracy, OR, is it some utopian, unbounded notion of free speech and privacy that is disconnected from our contextual reality (e.g. protects criminals, malicious defamers and violence mongers in equal proportion as law abiding citizens)?

The companies running these uncontrolled messaging platforms will not be impacted if our country goes up in flames. They cost governments tons of money in maintaining internal security (especially during democratic transitions - sometimes to existential levels) yet they don't pay any taxes... and mark you, they are *billion dollar* companies! This also means that funds that ought to have bought, say, medicine to save lives gets diverted to fix an *imported problem* with no path to holding the parent company accountable for damage caused.

Gok needs to modernize our tax laws, which currently are based on the traditional "for profit" enterprise model and thus out of touch with Silicon Valley's "make losses by design" model. The basic assumption that entrepreneurship is a profit oriented endeavour does not hold for Silicon Valley VC subsidized companies. They are designed to operate as loss makers for decades (but still move *massive* amounts of financial resources at massive scale). This has the technical effect of *tax avoidance* because massive profits *are* still being made by the offshore VCs - which denies governments billions in taxes (despite imposing local burdens as illustrated above). 

A smart government would create modernized laws to tax VC funded Silicon Valley companies e.g. on the basis of *funding rounds* and *valuations* because this is their *real* business i.e. its how the investors intend to make money from day one - and the primary reason they push for perpetual losses!

There should also be a turnover tax and VAT on online revenue earned in Kenya by foreign billion dollar internet companies (e.g. advertisement revenue and appstore revenue), to level the tax playing field for local businesses. Similar to what other countries like the UK are working on: 

https://www.wired.co.uk/article/facebook-uk-tax-bill

CA will obviously have a hard time monitoring and enforcing though, under the current traditional framework due to technical barriers (e.g. encryption) and also due to jurisdictional challenges. 

So the other thing that CA really needs to do once the rules are set is to consider blocking non-compliant foreign apps completely at ISP level (especially now that political temperatures are cool and people and thinking clearly). Lets have local startups filling any gaps with copycat apps China-style. 

To be clear, I support free speech and privacy. But I also support peace, stability, safe neighbourhoods, democracy, sovereignty and economic predictability!

A delicate balance is needed to maximise the rights of law abiding citizens while minimising the ability of those with evil intent to exploit basic rights in order to harm the innocent.

Good day. Patrick.

On Thursday, November 1, 2018, 11:00:44 PM GMT+3, Grace Githaiga via kictanet <kictanet@lists.kictanet.or.ke <mailto:kictanet@lists.kictanet.or.ke>> wrote:

Kenya is considering regulating online services such as WhatsApp and Skype in a radical move that could force the internet-based service providers to share data with the government.

The Communications Authority of Kenya (CA) is in search of a consultant to study and determine how the so-called over-the-top services (OTTS) operated by groups such as Facebook, which runs WhatsApp, and Skype owner Microsoft, could be regulated.

Read on: https://www.nation.co.ke/business/Telcos-regulator-seeks-to-monitor-WhatsApp...

Best regards

Githaiga, Grace

Co-Convenor Kenya ICT Action Network (KICTANet) Twitter:@ggithaiga Tel: 254722701495 Skype: gracegithaiga Alternate email: ggithaiga@hotmail.com <mailto:ggithaiga@hotmail.com> Linkedin: https://www.linkedin.com/in/gracegithaiga www.kictanet.or.ke <http://www.kictanet.or.ke>

"Change only happens when ordinary people get involved, get engaged and come together to demand it. I am asking you to believe. Not in my ability to bring about change – but in yours"---Barrack Obama.

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KICTANetiquette : Adhere to the same standards of acceptable behaviors online that you follow in real life: respect people's times and bandwidth, share knowledge, don't flame or abuse or personalize, respect privacy, do not spam, do not market your wares or qualifications. _______________________________________________ kictanet mailing list kictanet@lists.kictanet.or.ke <mailto:kictanet@lists.kictanet.or.ke> https://lists.kictanet.or.ke/mailman/listinfo/kictanet Twitter: http://twitter.com/kictanet Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/KICTANet/ Domain Registration sponsored by www.eacdirectory.co.ke <http://www.eacdirectory.co.ke>

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KICTANetiquette : Adhere to the same standards of acceptable behaviors online that you follow in real life: respect people's times and bandwidth, share knowledge, don't flame or abuse or personalize, respect privacy, do not spam, do not market your wares or qualifications.

_______________________________________________ kictanet mailing list kictanet@lists.kictanet.or.ke <mailto:kictanet@lists.kictanet.or.ke> https://lists.kictanet.or.ke/mailman/listinfo/kictanet Twitter: http://twitter.com/kictanet Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/KICTANet/ Domain Registration sponsored by www.eacdirectory.co.ke

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The Kenya ICT Action Network (KICTANet) is a multi-stakeholder platform for people and institutions interested and involved in ICT policy and regulation. The network aims to act as a catalyst for reform in the ICT sector in support of the national aim of ICT enabled growth and development.

KICTANetiquette : Adhere to the same standards of acceptable behaviors online that you follow in real life: respect people's times and bandwidth, share knowledge, don't flame or abuse or personalize, respect privacy, do not spam, do not market your wares or qualifications.

_______________________________________________ kictanet mailing list kictanet@lists.kictanet.or.ke https://lists.kictanet.or.ke/mailman/listinfo/kictanet Twitter: http://twitter.com/kictanet Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/KICTANet/ Domain Registration sponsored by www.eacdirectory.co.ke

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The Kenya ICT Action Network (KICTANet) is a multi-stakeholder platform for people and institutions interested and involved in ICT policy and regulation. The network aims to act as a catalyst for reform in the ICT sector in support of the national aim of ICT enabled growth and development.

KICTANetiquette : Adhere to the same standards of acceptable behaviors online that you follow in real life: respect people's times and bandwidth, share knowledge, don't flame or abuse or personalize, respect privacy, do not spam, do not market your wares or qualifications.

-- Mark James ELKINS - Posix Systems - (South) Africa mje@posix.co.za Tel: +27.128070590 Cell: +27.826010496 For fast, reliable, low cost Internet in ZA: https://ftth.posix.co.za

Hi Mark, Thanks for engaging and sharing, very interesting points. 1. Would you know if GoK is still using Google Apps for mail and docs? 2. What would your analysis of this be from a national security perspective? Thanks D On Tue, 6 Nov 2018 at 12:47, Mark Elkins via kictanet < kictanet@lists.kictanet.or.ke> wrote:

By extending this logic - then you would suggest we tax anyone using Gmail, or anyone hosting their web site or email services in another country? Gmail is also an "Over The Top" service.

WhatsApp hurts telecom companies - because telecom companies (mobile cell and fixed wire) made money from SMS's and Voice services. It hurts because WhatsApp works well and is innovative - you can use it (and many other similar services) to send Text, Pictures, Documents, Video, Voice Memo's and make voice calls. What you are perhaps suggesting is all innovation should be taxed?

Perhaps its time that the legacy telecom companies became more innovative themselves or simply provide the connectivity (and there is still lots of opportunity there). Voice and Text is just data. Data providers are taxed locally. Data usage is increasing so I presume Data companies are paying more and more tax.

As to abusive use (by any message conveying system) - humans will continue to be "harmful" and unfortunately will choose the easiest form of communications in order to group together - unless they have no reason to do so. I've no idea how to change human nature but I guess working on reasons for people to not become "harmful" would be a valid step. Difficult.

On 11/06/2018 09:43 AM, evelyne wanjiku via kictanet wrote:

Dear All,

In suppport of Mr. Patrick Mainas Maina's input.

The government needs to consider taxing the platforms. This is because they make money from us trade in our data and the revenue genereted benefits their countries and not ours given that they do not pay taxes here. This has been considered in Europe. In africa however, no country can apply this taxes on its own due to our 'economically colonised' position our countries find ourselves in. This means that the easiest option for our government becomes the easy route which is taxing the end user. This is counterproductive especially for those who use social media for productive activities. Therefore only a united african front would be succesful in getting these giants to pay up and keep our governments from considering taxing citizens. It is also important to consider that calls made on whatsapp, skype,viber cost less. This means that there is revenue reduction for the companies providing voice services. Considering that these companies are locally based and pay taxes to our government, why should their revenue be reduced by services that do not pay taxes to us? I suppose this is the logic used by countries like the UAE that block the use of whatsapp to make calls whithin their borders.

As for the ability of whatsapp to cause chaos, this is true and has been proven and whatsapp itself has acknowlegded this fact in countries like India and Pakistan. These are countries where fake news and inflammatory messages delivered mainly through whatsapp have led to chaos that have led to deaths of many people. Whatsapp has responded by putting in measures to ensure that such spread of hate news can be controlled from their end. Whatsapp also remains open open to suggestions as to how this can be contolled and is actively leading research in this area.

The question therefore should be, should we leave Whatsapp to be in charge of what is transfered on their platform and the consequences that follow? Should government have a role in monitoring how whatsapp is being used for harmful activities. Overall what is the role of government and the various platforms in ensuring this platform and others are used responsibly?

Good day to all

On Tuesday, November 6, 2018, 3:44:22 AM GMT+3, Francis Monyango via kictanet <kictanet@lists.kictanet.or.ke> <kictanet@lists.kictanet.or.ke> wrote:

Morning Mr Patrick Maina,

You mention how messaging apps facilitate fake news, crime and other things. You also lay peace,development on a scale versus human rights such as free speech and privacy. Sir, it is good to be objective and factual. Last year Kenya had 10 months of hot politics. Research shows that the Kenyan authorities did not attempt to control, disrupt or shutdown the internet. Hence this tired line of the country going into flames because of the internet (messaging apps) doesn't hold any weight. The number of Kenyan users of these messaging apps and other factors such as social class of users, bots affect the impact of the internet in democratic transitions. The broadcast media shut down in January should tell which communication medium has more impact on the Kenyan society. 😉

I believe your intention was to state why companies that offer over the top services should pay taxes here. That is a different argument all together with a different set of facts unless you are advocating for a blanket over the top tax to be paid by users to avoid 'spread of gossip and lies' just like in Uganda.

On Fri, 2 Nov 2018, 13:26 Patrick A. M. Maina via kictanet, < kictanet@lists.kictanet.or.ke> wrote:

These messaging apps facilitate fake news, crime, foreign meddling (to subvert democracy), brainwashing and hate speech on a massive scale. We know this for a fact.

So as citizens and stakeholders in our country, we need to ask: what do we value more, is it things that improve peace, stability, economic development and democracy, OR, is it some utopian, unbounded notion of free speech and privacy that is disconnected from our contextual reality (e.g. protects criminals, malicious defamers and violence mongers in equal proportion as law abiding citizens)?

The companies running these uncontrolled messaging platforms will not be impacted if our country goes up in flames. They cost governments tons of money in maintaining internal security (especially during democratic transitions - sometimes to existential levels) yet they don't pay any taxes... and mark you, they are *billion dollar* companies! This also means that funds that ought to have bought, say, medicine to save lives gets diverted to fix an *imported problem* with no path to holding the parent company accountable for damage caused.

Gok needs to modernize our tax laws, which currently are based on the traditional "for profit" enterprise model and thus out of touch with Silicon Valley's "make losses by design" model. The basic assumption that entrepreneurship is a profit oriented endeavour does not hold for Silicon Valley VC subsidized companies. They are designed to operate as loss makers for decades (but still move *massive* amounts of financial resources at massive scale). This has the technical effect of *tax avoidance* because massive profits *are* still being made by the offshore VCs - which denies governments billions in taxes (despite imposing local burdens as illustrated above).

A smart government would create modernized laws to tax VC funded Silicon Valley companies e.g. on the basis of *funding rounds* and *valuations* because this is their *real* business i.e. its how the investors intend to make money from day one - and the primary reason they push for perpetual losses!

There should also be a turnover tax and VAT on online revenue earned in Kenya by foreign billion dollar internet companies (e.g. advertisement revenue and appstore revenue), to level the tax playing field for local businesses. Similar to what other countries like the UK are working on:

https://www.wired.co.uk/article/facebook-uk-tax-bill

CA will obviously have a hard time monitoring and enforcing though, under the current traditional framework due to technical barriers (e.g. encryption) and also due to jurisdictional challenges.

So the other thing that CA really needs to do once the rules are set is to consider blocking non-compliant foreign apps completely at ISP level (especially now that political temperatures are cool and people and thinking clearly). Lets have local startups filling any gaps with copycat apps China-style.

To be clear, I support free speech and privacy. But I also support peace, stability, safe neighbourhoods, democracy, sovereignty and economic predictability!

A delicate balance is needed to maximise the rights of law abiding citizens while minimising the ability of those with evil intent to exploit basic rights in order to harm the innocent.

Good day. Patrick.

On Thursday, November 1, 2018, 11:00:44 PM GMT+3, Grace Githaiga via kictanet <kictanet@lists.kictanet.or.ke> wrote:

Kenya is considering regulating online services such as WhatsApp and Skype in a radical move that could force the internet-based service providers to share data with the government.

The Communications Authority of Kenya (CA) is in search of a consultant to study and determine how the so-called over-the-top services (OTTS) operated by groups such as Facebook, which runs WhatsApp, and Skype owner Microsoft, could be regulated. Read on: https://www.nation.co.ke/business/Telcos-regulator-seeks-to-monitor-WhatsApp...

Best regards

Githaiga, Grace

Co-Convenor Kenya ICT Action Network (KICTANet) Twitter:@ggithaiga Tel: 254722701495 Skype: gracegithaiga Alternate email: ggithaiga@hotmail.com Linkedin: https://www.linkedin.com/in/gracegithaiga www.kictanet.or.ke

"Change only happens when ordinary people get involved, get engaged and come together to demand it. I am asking you to believe. Not in my ability to bring about change – but in yours"---Barrack Obama.

_______________________________________________ kictanet mailing list kictanet@lists.kictanet.or.ke https://lists.kictanet.or.ke/mailman/listinfo/kictanet Twitter: http://twitter.com/kictanet Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/KICTANet/ Domain Registration sponsored by www.eacdirectory.co.ke

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The Kenya ICT Action Network (KICTANet) is a multi-stakeholder platform for people and institutions interested and involved in ICT policy and regulation. The network aims to act as a catalyst for reform in the ICT sector in support of the national aim of ICT enabled growth and development.

KICTANetiquette : Adhere to the same standards of acceptable behaviors online that you follow in real life: respect people's times and bandwidth, share knowledge, don't flame or abuse or personalize, respect privacy, do not spam, do not market your wares or qualifications. _______________________________________________ kictanet mailing list kictanet@lists.kictanet.or.ke https://lists.kictanet.or.ke/mailman/listinfo/kictanet Twitter: http://twitter.com/kictanet Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/KICTANet/ Domain Registration sponsored by www.eacdirectory.co.ke

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The Kenya ICT Action Network (KICTANet) is a multi-stakeholder platform for people and institutions interested and involved in ICT policy and regulation. The network aims to act as a catalyst for reform in the ICT sector in support of the national aim of ICT enabled growth and development.

KICTANetiquette : Adhere to the same standards of acceptable behaviors online that you follow in real life: respect people's times and bandwidth, share knowledge, don't flame or abuse or personalize, respect privacy, do not spam, do not market your wares or qualifications.

_______________________________________________ kictanet mailing list kictanet@lists.kictanet.or.ke https://lists.kictanet.or.ke/mailman/listinfo/kictanet Twitter: http://twitter.com/kictanet Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/KICTANet/ Domain Registration sponsored by www.eacdirectory.co.ke

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KICTANetiquette : Adhere to the same standards of acceptable behaviors online that you follow in real life: respect people's times and bandwidth, share knowledge, don't flame or abuse or personalize, respect privacy, do not spam, do not market your wares or qualifications.

_______________________________________________ kictanet mailing listkictanet@lists.kictanet.or.kehttps://lists.kictanet.or.ke/mailman/listinfo/kictanet Twitter: http://twitter.com/kictanet Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/KICTANet/ Domain Registration sponsored by www.eacdirectory.co.ke

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The Kenya ICT Action Network (KICTANet) is a multi-stakeholder platform for people and institutions interested and involved in ICT policy and regulation. The network aims to act as a catalyst for reform in the ICT sector in support of the national aim of ICT enabled growth and development.

KICTANetiquette : Adhere to the same standards of acceptable behaviors online that you follow in real life: respect people's times and bandwidth, share knowledge, don't flame or abuse or personalize, respect privacy, do not spam, do not market your wares or qualifications.

-- Mark James ELKINS - Posix Systems - (South) Africamje@posix.co.za Tel: +27.128070590 Cell: +27.826010496 For fast, reliable, low cost Internet in ZA: https://ftth.posix.co.za

_______________________________________________ kictanet mailing list kictanet@lists.kictanet.or.ke https://lists.kictanet.or.ke/mailman/listinfo/kictanet Twitter: http://twitter.com/kictanet Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/KICTANet/ Domain Registration sponsored by www.eacdirectory.co.ke

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KICTANetiquette : Adhere to the same standards of acceptable behaviors online that you follow in real life: respect people's times and bandwidth, share knowledge, don't flame or abuse or personalize, respect privacy, do not spam, do not market your wares or qualifications.

-- Daudi Were | daudi@were.co.ke Technology + Strategy Too brief? Here's why! http://emailcharter.org

In response to the first question, i am inclined to say yes. I would be happy  to see such taxes imposed on foreign hosted domains so that we encourage an uptake of local domains .ke or .africa. all the money we pay to .com or others goes to build other countries not our own. When will we build our own? Many say that the reason they opt for .com etc is the issue of cost. Wouldnt taxes on foreign stuff equalise the playing ground?  Sent from Yahoo Mail on Android On Tue, 6 Nov 2018 at 13:33, Mark Elkins via kictanet<kictanet@lists.kictanet.or.ke> wrote: _______________________________________________ kictanet mailing list kictanet@lists.kictanet.or.ke https://lists.kictanet.or.ke/mailman/listinfo/kictanet Twitter: http://twitter.com/kictanet Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/KICTANet/ Domain Registration sponsored by www.eacdirectory.co.ke Unsubscribe or change your options at https://lists.kictanet.or.ke/mailman/options/kictanet/ewanjiku2005%40yahoo.c... The Kenya ICT Action Network (KICTANet) is a multi-stakeholder platform for people and institutions interested and involved in ICT policy and regulation. The network aims to act as a catalyst for reform in the ICT sector in support of the national aim of ICT enabled growth and development. KICTANetiquette : Adhere to the same standards of acceptable behaviors online that you follow in real life: respect people's times and bandwidth, share knowledge, don't flame or abuse or personalize, respect privacy, do not spam, do not market your wares or qualifications.

To clarify, I don't support taxing the end user. People are already overburdened and overtaxed and this will be counterproductive because it is like punishing citizens for a foreigners mistake. We (indigenous Innovators) have the skills and ability to build safety-compliant alternative social apps that respect privacy while being a sensitive on-the ground stakeholder that co-shares the burden of our unique circumstances and risks as a fragile democracy and low Income country.  Nothing stops the government from sponsoring copycat initiatives from indigenous providers. This is what countries like India, China and Russia do as a matter of policy and it gives them strong bargaining power (Google is now developing a China compliant search engine for example). Introduce the local alternatives, promote them locally and once they have good traction, block the foreign versions that refuse to comply or pay a multi-point tax (based on valuation, fundraising and gross turnover). No one should lose their life or live in fear because of a foreign *app* that operates above the law! Waiting to act until after actual loss of life is irresponsible and callous. What if the victim is a loved one? Lets put our country's interests the public interest first. Good day.Patrick. On Tuesday, November 6, 2018, 1:01:06 PM GMT+3, evelyne wanjiku via kictanet <kictanet@lists.kictanet.or.ke> wrote: Dear All, In suppport of Mr. Patrick Mainas Maina's input. The government needs to consider taxing the platforms. This is because they make money from us trade in our data and the revenue genereted benefits their countries and not ours given that they do not pay taxes here. This has been considered in Europe. In africa however, no country can apply this taxes on its own due to our 'economically colonised' position our countries find ourselves in. This means that the easiest option for our government becomes the easy route which is taxing the end user. This is counterproductive especially for those who use social media for productive activities. Therefore only a united african front would be succesful in getting these giants to pay up and keep our governments from considering taxing citizens. It is also important to consider that calls made on whatsapp, skype,viber cost less. This means that there is revenue reduction for the companies providing voice services. Considering that these companies are locally based and pay taxes to our government, why should their revenue be reduced by services that do not pay taxes to us? I suppose this is the logic used by countries like the UAE that block the use of whatsapp to make calls whithin their borders.  As for the ability of whatsapp to cause chaos, this is true and has been proven and whatsapp itself has acknowlegded this fact in countries like India and Pakistan. These are countries where fake news and inflammatory messages delivered mainly through whatsapp have led to chaos that have led to deaths of many people.  Whatsapp has responded by putting in measures to ensure that such spread of hate news can be controlled from their end. Whatsapp also remains open open to suggestions as to how this can be contolled and is actively leading research in this area. The question therefore should be, should we leave Whatsapp to be in charge of what is transfered on their platform and the consequences that follow?  Should government have a role in monitoring how whatsapp is being used for harmful activities. Overall what is the role of government and the various platforms in ensuring this platform and others are used responsibly? Good day to all On Tuesday, November 6, 2018, 3:44:22 AM GMT+3, Francis Monyango via kictanet <kictanet@lists.kictanet.or.ke> wrote: Morning Mr Patrick Maina, You mention how messaging apps facilitate fake news, crime and other things. You also lay peace,development on a scale versus human rights such as free speech and privacy. Sir, it is good to be objective and factual. Last year Kenya had 10 months of hot politics. Research shows that the Kenyan authorities did not attempt to control, disrupt or shutdown the internet. Hence this tired line of the country going into flames because of the internet (messaging apps) doesn't hold any weight. The number of Kenyan users of these messaging apps and other factors such as social class of users, bots affect the impact of the internet in democratic transitions. The broadcast media shut down in January should tell which communication medium has more impact on the Kenyan society. 😉 I believe your intention was to state why companies that offer over the top services should pay taxes here. That is a different argument all together with a different set of facts unless you are advocating for a blanket over the top tax to be paid by users to avoid 'spread of gossip and lies' just like in Uganda. On Fri, 2 Nov 2018, 13:26 Patrick A. M. Maina via kictanet, <kictanet@lists.kictanet.or.ke> wrote: These messaging apps facilitate fake news, crime, foreign meddling (to subvert democracy), brainwashing and hate speech on a massive scale. We know this for a fact.  So as citizens and stakeholders in our country, we need to ask: what do we value more, is it things that improve peace, stability, economic development and democracy, OR, is it some utopian, unbounded notion of free speech and privacy that is disconnected from our contextual reality (e.g. protects criminals, malicious defamers and violence mongers in equal proportion as law abiding citizens)? The companies running these uncontrolled messaging platforms will not be impacted if our country goes up in flames. They cost governments tons of money in maintaining internal security (especially during democratic transitions - sometimes to existential levels) yet they don't pay any taxes... and mark you, they are *billion dollar* companies! This also means that funds that ought to have bought, say, medicine to save lives gets diverted to fix an *imported problem* with no path to holding the parent company accountable for damage caused. Gok needs to modernize our tax laws, which currently are based on the traditional "for profit" enterprise model and thus out of touch with Silicon Valley's "make losses by design" model. The basic assumption that entrepreneurship is a profit oriented endeavour does not hold for Silicon Valley VC subsidized companies. They are designed to operate as loss makers for decades (but still move *massive* amounts of financial resources at massive scale). This has the technical effect of *tax avoidance* because massive profits *are* still being made by the offshore VCs - which denies governments billions in taxes (despite imposing local burdens as illustrated above).  A smart government would create modernized laws to tax VC funded Silicon Valley companies e.g. on the basis of *funding rounds* and *valuations* because this is their *real* business i.e. its how the investors intend to make money from day one - and the primary reason they push for perpetual losses! There should also be a turnover tax and VAT on online revenue earned in Kenya by foreign billion dollar internet companies (e.g. advertisement revenue and appstore revenue), to level the tax playing field for local businesses. Similar to what other countries like the UK are working on:  https://www.wired.co.uk/article/facebook-uk-tax-bill CA will obviously have a hard time monitoring and enforcing though, under the current traditional framework due to technical barriers (e.g. encryption) and also due to jurisdictional challenges.  So the other thing that CA really needs to do once the rules are set is to consider blocking non-compliant foreign apps completely at ISP level (especially now that political temperatures are cool and people and thinking clearly). Lets have local startups filling any gaps with copycat apps China-style.  To be clear, I support free speech and privacy. But I also support peace, stability, safe neighbourhoods, democracy, sovereignty and economic predictability! A delicate balance is needed to maximise the rights of law abiding citizens while minimising the ability of those with evil intent to exploit basic rights in order to harm the innocent. Good day.Patrick. On Thursday, November 1, 2018, 11:00:44 PM GMT+3, Grace Githaiga via kictanet <kictanet@lists.kictanet.or.ke> wrote: Kenya is considering regulating online services such as WhatsApp and Skype in a radical move that could force the internet-based service providers to share data with the government. The Communications Authority of Kenya (CA) is in search of a consultant to study and determine how the so-called over-the-top services (OTTS) operated by groups such as Facebook, which runs WhatsApp, and Skype owner Microsoft, could be regulated. Read on: https://www.nation.co.ke/business/Telcos-regulator-seeks-to-monitor-WhatsApp... Best regards Githaiga, Grace Co-Convenor Kenya ICT Action Network (KICTANet) Twitter:@ggithaiga Tel: 254722701495 Skype: gracegithaiga Alternate email: ggithaiga@hotmail.com Linkedin: https://www.linkedin.com/in/gracegithaiga www.kictanet.or.ke "Change only happens when ordinary people get involved, get engaged and come together to demand it. I am asking you to believe. Not in my ability to bring about change – but in yours"---Barrack Obama. _______________________________________________ kictanet mailing list kictanet@lists.kictanet.or.ke https://lists.kictanet.or.ke/mailman/listinfo/kictanet Twitter: http://twitter.com/kictanet Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/KICTANet/ Domain Registration sponsored by www.eacdirectory.co.ke Unsubscribe or change your options at https://lists.kictanet.or.ke/mailman/options/kictanet/pmaina2000%40yahoo.com The Kenya ICT Action Network (KICTANet) is a multi-stakeholder platform for people and institutions interested and involved in ICT policy and regulation. The network aims to act as a catalyst for reform in the ICT sector in support of the national aim of ICT enabled growth and development. KICTANetiquette : Adhere to the same standards of acceptable behaviors online that you follow in real life: respect people's times and bandwidth, share knowledge, don't flame or abuse or personalize, respect privacy, do not spam, do not market your wares or qualifications. _______________________________________________ kictanet mailing list kictanet@lists.kictanet.or.ke https://lists.kictanet.or.ke/mailman/listinfo/kictanet Twitter: http://twitter.com/kictanet Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/KICTANet/ Domain Registration sponsored by www.eacdirectory.co.ke Unsubscribe or change your options at https://lists.kictanet.or.ke/mailman/options/kictanet/monyango93%40gmail.com The Kenya ICT Action Network (KICTANet) is a multi-stakeholder platform for people and institutions interested and involved in ICT policy and regulation. The network aims to act as a catalyst for reform in the ICT sector in support of the national aim of ICT enabled growth and development. KICTANetiquette : Adhere to the same standards of acceptable behaviors online that you follow in real life: respect people's times and bandwidth, share knowledge, don't flame or abuse or personalize, respect privacy, do not spam, do not market your wares or qualifications. _______________________________________________ kictanet mailing list kictanet@lists.kictanet.or.ke https://lists.kictanet.or.ke/mailman/listinfo/kictanet Twitter: http://twitter.com/kictanet Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/KICTANet/ Domain Registration sponsored by www.eacdirectory.co.ke Unsubscribe or change your options at https://lists.kictanet.or.ke/mailman/options/kictanet/ewanjiku2005%40yahoo.c... The Kenya ICT Action Network (KICTANet) is a multi-stakeholder platform for people and institutions interested and involved in ICT policy and regulation. The network aims to act as a catalyst for reform in the ICT sector in support of the national aim of ICT enabled growth and development. KICTANetiquette : Adhere to the same standards of acceptable behaviors online that you follow in real life: respect people's times and bandwidth, share knowledge, don't flame or abuse or personalize, respect privacy, do not spam, do not market your wares or qualifications. _______________________________________________ kictanet mailing list kictanet@lists.kictanet.or.ke https://lists.kictanet.or.ke/mailman/listinfo/kictanet Twitter: http://twitter.com/kictanet Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/KICTANet/ Domain Registration sponsored by www.eacdirectory.co.ke Unsubscribe or change your options at https://lists.kictanet.or.ke/mailman/options/kictanet/pmaina2000%40yahoo.com The Kenya ICT Action Network (KICTANet) is a multi-stakeholder platform for people and institutions interested and involved in ICT policy and regulation. The network aims to act as a catalyst for reform in the ICT sector in support of the national aim of ICT enabled growth and development. KICTANetiquette : Adhere to the same standards of acceptable behaviors online that you follow in real life: respect people's times and bandwidth, share knowledge, don't flame or abuse or personalize, respect privacy, do not spam, do not market your wares or qualifications.