Listers, I hope everybody read the Thursday Star article on e-waste. The article quoted a study conducted locally and found out that we import thousands of tons in e-waste from developed countries. Environmental agencies are concerned. For every one used computer that ends up being used, there are ten to be juncked or to be used for canibalizing. Do we really need this in the country? In my view we should support the Government's proposal to ban the imports. My brief research shows those supporting this effort are themselves in the used electronics industry. In all honest the benefits do not justify our continued use of other people's waste. PS Ndemo said we can lower the cost of new computers to equal that of the used computer. Why can we not pursue this? Victor.
Victor, Fully agree. This is the way to go... Hadn't considered the "cannibalization" part... It really defeats the purpose.. Let's fast track efforts to curtail E-Dumping.. I suppose, this should cut across all other sectors in the electronic industry.. Regards, Harry _____ From: kictanet-bounces+harry=comtelsys.co.ke@lists.kictanet.or.ke [mailto:kictanet-bounces+harry=comtelsys.co.ke@lists.kictanet.or.ke] On Behalf Of Victor Maloi Sent: Saturday, March 20, 2010 1:27 PM To: harry@comtelsys.co.ke Cc: KICTAnet ICT Policy Discussions Subject: [kictanet] Used Computers Listers, I hope everybody read the Thursday Star article on e-waste. The article quoted a study conducted locally and found out that we import thousands of tons in e-waste from developed countries. Environmental agencies are concerned. For every one used computer that ends up being used, there are ten to be juncked or to be used for canibalizing. Do we really need this in the country? In my view we should support the Government's proposal to ban the imports. My brief research shows those supporting this effort are themselves in the used electronics industry. In all honest the benefits do not justify our continued use of other people's waste. PS Ndemo said we can lower the cost of new computers to equal that of the used computer. Why can we not pursue this? Victor.
We were shown that article by Dr Ndemo when we met him yesterday in his office. Just that we never had adequate time to read it through. I just wonder who did that research and how scientific it is. One thing we were all in agreement with is that we will need to devise ways of dealing with e-waste, whether its fromused computers or new ones. There are various NGOs that already have e-waste management facilities, such as Computers for Schools Kenya. This is way ahead of the Government which does not have any plans to deal with e-waste. This organization is actually helping the Government to deal with its own e-waste and thereby assisting them to avoid dumping. At the same time, there is agreement that we must separate computers from the rest of electronic items being imported like fridges, microwaves, radios etc. The figures in that report are outrageous and misleading. Whereas you can cannibalize one computer and use the parts to fix 9 others, I wonder how that can be achieved in something like a malfunctioning cd player or fridge. To say that those pushing to stop the ban have vested interests is to miss the point. The same can be said for those pushing for the ban. If the used computers are banned and we have to sell new ones, we will still be in business assembling clones. The end user who cant afford the higher cost of new computers is the one to suffer, and the economy by extension. If there is a way to bring down the cost of a new computer to under 10,000/=, then we will have nothing to complain about and obviously there will not be any economic value in importing used computers. Nice weekend everyone. Ikua Quoting Harry Delano <harry@comtelsys.co.ke>:
Victor,
Fully agree. This is the way to go... Hadn't considered the "cannibalization" part...
It really defeats the purpose.. Let's fast track efforts to curtail E-Dumping..
I suppose, this should cut across all other sectors in the electronic industry..
Regards, Harry
_____
From: kictanet-bounces+harry=comtelsys.co.ke@lists.kictanet.or.ke [mailto:kictanet-bounces+harry=comtelsys.co.ke@lists.kictanet.or.ke] On Behalf Of Victor Maloi Sent: Saturday, March 20, 2010 1:27 PM To: harry@comtelsys.co.ke Cc: KICTAnet ICT Policy Discussions Subject: [kictanet] Used Computers
Listers, I hope everybody read the Thursday Star article on e-waste. The article quoted a study conducted locally and found out that we import thousands of tons in e-waste from developed countries. Environmental agencies are concerned. For every one used computer that ends up being used, there are ten to be juncked or to be used for canibalizing. Do we really need this in the country? In my view we should support the Government's proposal to ban the imports. My brief research shows those supporting this effort are themselves in the used electronics industry. In all honest the benefits do not justify our continued use of other people's waste. PS Ndemo said we can lower the cost of new computers to equal that of the used computer. Why can we not pursue this?
Victor.
Hello Victor, I'm sorry to have to disgagree on this one, as a techie. I'm against the ban on used computers to a certain level and I add my amatuer input to this thread. A lot of us started our careers in this industry on used computers way back to atari, ibm 286 ( in the 80s ). We seem to trust 100% studies done and assuming that this time around the studies were actually based on hard facts, then such a study does confirm that there are thousands of kenyans depend on the used computer industry. It would be quite helpful to read these studies done so as to confirm whether the problem is used computers or that the failure of no facilites in kenya that can handle such waste. Whatever the agencies are pushing for is, am sure, for the betterment of the enviroment but they are looking at short term solutions. *I put forward this argument : The same brand new computer that you typed this email with will become obsolete in a matter of 2 years due to newer apps and technologies. What will you then do with it? Sell it as junk or dispose of it? We will be in the same e-waste situation. What will Kenya's solution be then? BAN NEW COMPUTERS? * ** Dr Ndemo, please do let us keep open minds on the used computers issue and try to create a balance rationale that a lot of kenyans still cannot afford a new one. Kenya ICT policies need to ensure that computers penetration into almost every home is a reality within a number of years, that we have productive kids who have access to computers both at school and at home. - Wild card comment : To really get the envorimental agencies involved, they should also do a study on the air quality in Nairobi around peak traffic time and they could possibly confirm to kenyans that we are breathing in very unhealthy air. Lets go ahead and ban all those Diesel engines from trucks, matatus which should be complying with acceptable pollution standards. Let us also get CO testers so that all petrol engine vehicles on the roads are tuned to comply with pollution standards. And finally, let us not have half baked attempts at resolving enviromental problems. - This mail is not meant to offend anyone. Thank you. Rgds. On Sat, Mar 20, 2010 at 1:27 PM, Victor Maloi <victormaloi3@gmail.com>wrote:
Listers, I hope everybody read the Thursday Star article on e-waste. The article quoted a study conducted locally and found out that we import thousands of tons in e-waste from developed countries. Environmental agencies are concerned. For every one used computer that ends up being used, there are ten to be juncked or to be used for canibalizing. Do we really need this in the country? In my view we should support the Government's proposal to ban the imports. My brief research shows those supporting this effort are themselves in the used electronics industry. In all honest the benefits do not justify our continued use of other people's waste. PS Ndemo said we can lower the cost of new computers to equal that of the used computer. Why can we not pursue this?
Victor.
I would also like to use this forum to thank Dr Ndemo for keeping a very open mind in our discussion on this subject in his office yesterday. Quoting aki <aki275@googlemail.com>:
Hello Victor, I'm sorry to have to disgagree on this one, as a techie. I'm against the ban on used computers to a certain level and I add my amatuer input to this thread. A lot of us started our careers in this industry on used computers way back to atari, ibm 286 ( in the 80s ).
We seem to trust 100% studies done and assuming that this time around the studies were actually based on hard facts, then such a study does confirm that there are thousands of kenyans depend on the used computer industry. It would be quite helpful to read these studies done so as to confirm whether the problem is used computers or that the failure of no facilites in kenya that can handle such waste. Whatever the agencies are pushing for is, am sure, for the betterment of the enviroment but they are looking at short term solutions.
*I put forward this argument : The same brand new computer that you typed this email with will become obsolete in a matter of 2 years due to newer apps and technologies. What will you then do with it? Sell it as junk or dispose of it? We will be in the same e-waste situation. What will Kenya's solution be then? BAN NEW COMPUTERS? * ** Dr Ndemo, please do let us keep open minds on the used computers issue and try to create a balance rationale that a lot of kenyans still cannot afford a new one. Kenya ICT policies need to ensure that computers penetration into almost every home is a reality within a number of years, that we have productive kids who have access to computers both at school and at home.
- Wild card comment : To really get the envorimental agencies involved, they should also do a study on the air quality in Nairobi around peak traffic time and they could possibly confirm to kenyans that we are breathing in very unhealthy air. Lets go ahead and ban all those Diesel engines from trucks, matatus which should be complying with acceptable pollution standards. Let us also get CO testers so that all petrol engine vehicles on the roads are tuned to comply with pollution standards. And finally, let us not have half baked attempts at resolving enviromental problems. -
This mail is not meant to offend anyone.
Thank you.
Rgds. On Sat, Mar 20, 2010 at 1:27 PM, Victor Maloi <victormaloi3@gmail.com>wrote:
Listers, I hope everybody read the Thursday Star article on e-waste. The article quoted a study conducted locally and found out that we import thousands of tons in e-waste from developed countries. Environmental agencies are concerned. For every one used computer that ends up being used, there are ten to be juncked or to be used for canibalizing. Do we really need this in the country? In my view we should support the Government's proposal to ban the imports. My brief research shows those supporting this effort are themselves in the used electronics industry. In all honest the benefits do not justify our continued use of other people's waste. PS Ndemo said we can lower the cost of new computers to equal that of the used computer. Why can we not pursue this?
Victor.
Dear all, I think everyone has a valid point. I suppose the only issue is, "What is the point of "convergence?", in this important debate. Again, I also gather from most of the comments posted, the term "E-waste" seem to carry different meanings to different people.. In my considered opinion "E-Waste", is useless, defective and obsolete junk, that can no longer serve any purpose, leave alone being passed on to some rural school who might find some use still left in it. Wikipedia adds that, such equipment could be a health hazard and could cause pollution. Any equipment that is re-usable and if for the entire duration it is re-usable it does not pose any harm, should not qualify to be placed in the "E-waste" column. Let's look for another name. I suppose also, what might be considered E-waste in the context of "Developed" economies, might never be what we consider it to be in our situation.
From the foregoing, let's first - from a Multistakeholder point of view, work on defining "E-waste" in our context, and how to deal with the menace. Otherwise, I tend to believe the argument now is from different angles..
Harry _____ From: kictanet-bounces+harry=comtelsys.co.ke@lists.kictanet.or.ke [mailto:kictanet-bounces+harry=comtelsys.co.ke@lists.kictanet.or.ke] On Behalf Of aki Sent: Saturday, March 20, 2010 2:35 PM To: harry@comtelsys.co.ke Cc: KICTAnet ICT Policy Discussions Subject: Re: [kictanet] Used Computers Hello Victor, I'm sorry to have to disgagree on this one, as a techie. I'm against the ban on used computers to a certain level and I add my amatuer input to this thread. A lot of us started our careers in this industry on used computers way back to atari, ibm 286 ( in the 80s ). We seem to trust 100% studies done and assuming that this time around the studies were actually based on hard facts, then such a study does confirm that there are thousands of kenyans depend on the used computer industry. It would be quite helpful to read these studies done so as to confirm whether the problem is used computers or that the failure of no facilites in kenya that can handle such waste. Whatever the agencies are pushing for is, am sure, for the betterment of the enviroment but they are looking at short term solutions. I put forward this argument : The same brand new computer that you typed this email with will become obsolete in a matter of 2 years due to newer apps and technologies. What will you then do with it? Sell it as junk or dispose of it? We will be in the same e-waste situation. What will Kenya's solution be then? BAN NEW COMPUTERS? Dr Ndemo, please do let us keep open minds on the used computers issue and try to create a balance rationale that a lot of kenyans still cannot afford a new one. Kenya ICT policies need to ensure that computers penetration into almost every home is a reality within a number of years, that we have productive kids who have access to computers both at school and at home. - Wild card comment : To really get the envorimental agencies involved, they should also do a study on the air quality in Nairobi around peak traffic time and they could possibly confirm to kenyans that we are breathing in very unhealthy air. Lets go ahead and ban all those Diesel engines from trucks, matatus which should be complying with acceptable pollution standards. Let us also get CO testers so that all petrol engine vehicles on the roads are tuned to comply with pollution standards. And finally, let us not have half baked attempts at resolving enviromental problems. - This mail is not meant to offend anyone. Thank you. Rgds. On Sat, Mar 20, 2010 at 1:27 PM, Victor Maloi <victormaloi3@gmail.com> wrote: Listers, I hope everybody read the Thursday Star article on e-waste. The article quoted a study conducted locally and found out that we import thousands of tons in e-waste from developed countries. Environmental agencies are concerned. For every one used computer that ends up being used, there are ten to be juncked or to be used for canibalizing. Do we really need this in the country? In my view we should support the Government's proposal to ban the imports. My brief research shows those supporting this effort are themselves in the used electronics industry. In all honest the benefits do not justify our continued use of other people's waste. PS Ndemo said we can lower the cost of new computers to equal that of the used computer. Why can we not pursue this? Victor.
Hi Harry, I'll add my last general amatuer comment on this thread, corrections are welcome. :-) Wikipedia can be vague sometimes. When we talk health hazards from equipment, does it refer to radiation from CRTs? Chemicals from computers? Many who have done anything to do with electronics will know, the most unstable component is the Electrolyte Capacitor which is found in power supplies, and one unique one is found on motherboards on older computers. The rest of components, besides the main processor and memory, are sealed in a laquer layer. Even with new computers, this is the case. Both of these items pose problems when disposed. Importers of new equipment cannot say that out of every 400 new computers imported, all were fine. Maybe due to shipment, some were damaged or others had some faulty part that was not detected during the manufacturing process, is the importer going to ship the faulty units back? I hardly think so. The enviromental groups will be back at square one on this one unless long term solutions are gotten. And I think we need to remind them that a *new computer is not a one time, once in a life time purchase nor are they any safer to dispose.* Whether we use a computer for 2 years, then donate it to some school, the school will have to dispose/dump it at some stage. Can anyone on this list share information about the Main Frame Servers of the 80s and early 90s that used to occupy floor spaces? Where did they go from Kenyan Offices, they were cannot simply cannot have decayed and turned into dust. Kenyans have been dumping IT goods and polluting even before the used computers arrived in the market. What has changed so significantly that the used computers market is being veiwed as the polluter? Agreed machines like the early pentiums have no use nor need presence in the market, therefore it would be essential to seperate the real dumping and the genuine used computers. I hope Evans and the others in the industry can add more thoughts on this but an outright ban is not the solution. Rgds.
Hey Aki, You are right. Arriving at a clear benchmark might be elusive. What could be classified as "E-waste" vis-a-viz, "Second hand" could be a matter of conjecture, just as what may be defined as "Disposable" or "Re-usable" Frankly speaking, it is subjective - depending on who is handling the topic. That is why once again, I would really call for the adoption of a "Multistakeholder" based approach in most of these ICT policy formulation. Let it be consultative - involving Government, policy experts, researchers, dealers, environmental experts - etcetra. An "All inclusive approach" that will go a long way to address all interested parties' concerns. I echo Evans' hailing of the "open door" policy by the PS. Let's keep the ideas alive, and not shy away from contributing for the sake of this beloved nation's progress.. I suppose, it's time we start seeing some of these important policy debates on resourceful forums such as this evolve into good legislation, to have some form of teeth. Harry _____ From: kictanet-bounces+harry=comtelsys.co.ke@lists.kictanet.or.ke [mailto:kictanet-bounces+harry=comtelsys.co.ke@lists.kictanet.or.ke] On Behalf Of aki Sent: Saturday, March 20, 2010 5:28 PM To: harry@comtelsys.co.ke Cc: KICTAnet ICT Policy Discussions Subject: Re: [kictanet] Used Computers Hi Harry, I'll add my last general amatuer comment on this thread, corrections are welcome. :-) Wikipedia can be vague sometimes. When we talk health hazards from equipment, does it refer to radiation from CRTs? Chemicals from computers? Many who have done anything to do with electronics will know, the most unstable component is the Electrolyte Capacitor which is found in power supplies, and one unique one is found on motherboards on older computers. The rest of components, besides the main processor and memory, are sealed in a laquer layer. Even with new computers, this is the case. Both of these items pose problems when disposed. Importers of new equipment cannot say that out of every 400 new computers imported, all were fine. Maybe due to shipment, some were damaged or others had some faulty part that was not detected during the manufacturing process, is the importer going to ship the faulty units back? I hardly think so. The enviromental groups will be back at square one on this one unless long term solutions are gotten. And I think we need to remind them that a new computer is not a one time, once in a life time purchase nor are they any safer to dispose. Whether we use a computer for 2 years, then donate it to some school, the school will have to dispose/dump it at some stage. Can anyone on this list share information about the Main Frame Servers of the 80s and early 90s that used to occupy floor spaces? Where did they go from Kenyan Offices, they were cannot simply cannot have decayed and turned into dust. Kenyans have been dumping IT goods and polluting even before the used computers arrived in the market. What has changed so significantly that the used computers market is being veiwed as the polluter? Agreed machines like the early pentiums have no use nor need presence in the market, therefore it would be essential to seperate the real dumping and the genuine used computers. I hope Evans and the others in the industry can add more thoughts on this but an outright ban is not the solution. Rgds.
participants (4)
-
aki -
Harry Delano -
ikua＠lpakenya.org -
Victor Maloi