CBK lacks tech savvy team to survey local lenders
http://www.nation.co.ke/business/CBK-lacks-tech-savvy-team-to-survey-local-l... The Central Bank of Kenya’s (CBK) unit charged with supervising lenders lacks a tech savvy team to watch over transactions amid a confidence crisis after the collapse of three banks, Parliament was told Tuesday. Gerald Nyaoma, head of bank supervision department, told MPs that his unit lacks the expertise to audit banks’ Information Technology (IT) systems—which rogue and greedy directors have exploited to lend themselves billions of shillings of depositors’ funds, breaching banking regulations. “I acknowledge the key role that ICT experts would play at the department and this is the advice I personally gave the governor (CBK head Patrick Njoroge),” said Mr Nyaoma. ______________________ Mwendwa Kivuva, Nairobi, Kenya twitter.com/lordmwesh
So how then do we expect them to execute? How do you regulate an industry that is in the 22nd Century with tools not updated since Alexander Graham Bell invented the telephone? The bad news (or good if you want to console yourself) is that this is not a particular Kenyan phenomenon. It's a global thing. Regulators and enforcers are finding themselves walking into a gun fight armed with a pen knife.. Ali Hussein Principal Hussein & Associates +254 0713 601113 / 0770906375 Twitter: @AliHKassim Skype: abu-jomo LinkedIn: http://ke.linkedin.com/in/alihkassim "Discovery consists in seeing what everyone else has seen and thinking what no one else has thought". ~ Albert Szent-Györgyi Sent from my iPad
On 27 Apr 2016, at 12:55 PM, Mwendwa Kivuva via kictanet <kictanet@lists.kictanet.or.ke> wrote:
http://www.nation.co.ke/business/CBK-lacks-tech-savvy-team-to-survey-local-l...
The Central Bank of Kenya’s (CBK) unit charged with supervising lenders lacks a tech savvy team to watch over transactions amid a confidence crisis after the collapse of three banks, Parliament was told Tuesday.
Gerald Nyaoma, head of bank supervision department, told MPs that his unit lacks the expertise to audit banks’ Information Technology (IT) systems—which rogue and greedy directors have exploited to lend themselves billions of shillings of depositors’ funds, breaching banking regulations.
“I acknowledge the key role that ICT experts would play at the department and this is the advice I personally gave the governor (CBK head Patrick Njoroge),” said Mr Nyaoma.
______________________ Mwendwa Kivuva, Nairobi, Kenya twitter.com/lordmwesh
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Thanks for sharing Kivuva. The CBK should advertise for these positions. There are scores of very qualified candidates in Kenya. Waudo On Wed, Apr 27, 2016, at 12:55 PM, Mwendwa Kivuva via kictanet wrote:
http://www.nation.co.ke/business/CBK-lacks-tech-savvy-team-to-survey-local-l... The Central Bank of Kenya’s (CBK) unit charged with supervising lenders lacks a tech savvy team to watch over transactions amid a confidence crisis after the collapse of three banks, Parliament was told Tuesday. Gerald Nyaoma, head of bank supervision department, told MPs that his unit lacks the expertise to audit banks’ Information Technology (IT) systems—which rogue and greedy directors have exploited to lend themselves billions of shillings of depositors’ funds, breaching banking regulations. “I acknowledge the key role that ICT experts would play at the department and this is the advice I personally gave the governor (CBK head Patrick Njoroge),” said Mr Nyaoma.
______________________ Mwendwa Kivuva, Nairobi, Kenya twitter.com/lordmwesh
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Thanks Ali and Dr. Waudo. Just wondering what is the view of ISACA Kenya Chapter on this, and the role they have played in ensuring such skills are legislated in statute. ISACA may be certifying experts who don't add any value in society when their resume are gathering digital dust in dropbox and Google drive. The questions we should be asking is how ICPAK was able to ensure their certifications are a must for somebody to perform any accounting work. Mr Paul Roy, the ball is in your court. Regards ______________________ Mwendwa Kivuva, Nairobi, Kenya twitter.com/lordmwesh On 27 April 2016 at 14:08, waudo siganga <emailsignet@mailcan.com> wrote:
Thanks for sharing Kivuva. The CBK should advertise for these positions. There are scores of very qualified candidates in Kenya.
Waudo
On Wed, Apr 27, 2016, at 12:55 PM, Mwendwa Kivuva via kictanet wrote:
http://www.nation.co.ke/business/CBK-lacks-tech-savvy-team-to-survey-local-l...
The Central Bank of Kenya’s (CBK) unit charged with supervising lenders lacks a tech savvy team to watch over transactions amid a confidence crisis after the collapse of three banks, Parliament was told Tuesday.
Gerald Nyaoma, head of bank supervision department, told MPs that his unit lacks the expertise to audit banks’ Information Technology (IT) systems—which rogue and greedy directors have exploited to lend themselves billions of shillings of depositors’ funds, breaching banking regulations.
“I acknowledge the key role that ICT experts would play at the department and this is the advice I personally gave the governor (CBK head Patrick Njoroge),” said Mr Nyaoma.
______________________ Mwendwa Kivuva, Nairobi, Kenya twitter.com/lordmwesh
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KICTANetiquette : Adhere to the same standards of acceptable behaviors online that you follow in real life: respect people's times and bandwidth, share knowledge, don't flame or abuse or personalize, respect privacy, do not spam, do not market your wares or qualifications.
Good discussion and good points. Someone recently posted something on social media - "the moment you stop learning after graduation, that's the beginning of being uneducated". Learning is continuous and should never stop. As ISACA like other professional bodies, we do put alot of emphasis on continuous education in form of CPEs and peer to peer knowledge sharing which certified members need to earn. I totally agree that we do have certified IT auditors who have no idea of various technologies available in the market today. They probably got certified 10+ years ago and rely on the very same technologies that were used then. If you search this list, I recently posted a message putting such people on notice. Actually we do purge them from our list of certified members. I would ask the industry to support us by crosschecking with relevant professional bodies on someone's professional standing. Last - As long as I am a the helm of ISACA Kenya, I would like to open up our doors to the various experts within the industry who are willing to retrain IT auditors, IT Security professionals to consider ISACA as an ally. Let us work together, talk to me, come for one of the evening talks and let us grow and strengthen the profession. I believe in partnerships and welcome anyone/organization with skills to come forward and help retrain these professionals. regards, Paul Roy. On Wed, Apr 27, 2016 at 2:49 PM, Mwendwa Kivuva via kictanet < kictanet@lists.kictanet.or.ke> wrote:
Thanks Ali and Dr. Waudo.
Just wondering what is the view of ISACA Kenya Chapter on this, and the role they have played in ensuring such skills are legislated in statute. ISACA may be certifying experts who don't add any value in society when their resume are gathering digital dust in dropbox and Google drive. The questions we should be asking is how ICPAK was able to ensure their certifications are a must for somebody to perform any accounting work. Mr Paul Roy, the ball is in your court.
Regards
______________________ Mwendwa Kivuva, Nairobi, Kenya twitter.com/lordmwesh
On 27 April 2016 at 14:08, waudo siganga <emailsignet@mailcan.com> wrote:
Thanks for sharing Kivuva. The CBK should advertise for these positions. There are scores of very qualified candidates in Kenya.
Waudo
On Wed, Apr 27, 2016, at 12:55 PM, Mwendwa Kivuva via kictanet wrote:
http://www.nation.co.ke/business/CBK-lacks-tech-savvy-team-to-survey-local-l...
The Central Bank of Kenya’s (CBK) unit charged with supervising lenders lacks a tech savvy team to watch over transactions amid a confidence crisis after the collapse of three banks, Parliament was told Tuesday.
Gerald Nyaoma, head of bank supervision department, told MPs that his unit lacks the expertise to audit banks’ Information Technology (IT) systems—which rogue and greedy directors have exploited to lend themselves billions of shillings of depositors’ funds, breaching banking regulations.
“I acknowledge the key role that ICT experts would play at the department and this is the advice I personally gave the governor (CBK head Patrick Njoroge),” said Mr Nyaoma.
______________________ Mwendwa Kivuva, Nairobi, Kenya twitter.com/lordmwesh
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KICTANetiquette : Adhere to the same standards of acceptable behaviors online that you follow in real life: respect people's times and bandwidth, share knowledge, don't flame or abuse or personalize, respect privacy, do not spam, do not market your wares or qualifications.
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-- "Change is slow and gradual. It requires hardwork, a bit of luck, a fair amount of self-sacrifice and a lot of patience." Roy.
On 27 April 2016 at 16:12, Paul Roy <roykoikai@gmail.com> wrote:
Last - As long as I am a the helm of ISACA Kenya, I would like to open up our doors to the various experts within the industry who are willing to retrain IT auditors, IT Security professionals to consider ISACA as an ally. Let us work together, talk to me, come for one of the evening talks and let us grow and strengthen the profession.
Hi Paul, Thanks for the elaborate reply. My main concern is if it's legislated that people with valid IT Systems Audit certifications are the only ones doing IT audits for public interest organisations. The way only Lawyers can only do certain duties, or CPAs. Is this something feasible? Regards ______________________ Mwendwa Kivuva, Nairobi, Kenya twitter.com/lordmwesh
Hi Kivuva, My understanding, although of course open to correction, is that IT Systems Auditors are essentially certified auditors with specialist training and skills to audit "through" and "around" IT systems. I would envisage someone with an auditing qualification backed up with a supplementary qualification is systems auditing but at the end of the day this person is an AUDITOR. In addition the training for today's certified auditors already includes systems audit as a subject. So the key skill is auditing, supplemented by systems knowledge. If this is the case then these professionals are already covered under statutory provisions. Waudo On Wed, Apr 27, 2016, at 04:25 PM, Mwendwa Kivuva via kictanet wrote:
On 27 April 2016 at 16:12, Paul Roy <roykoikai@gmail.com> wrote:
Last - As long as I am a the helm of ISACA Kenya, I would like to open up our doors to the various experts within the industry who are willing to retrain IT auditors, IT Security professionals to consider ISACA as an ally. Let us work together, talk to me, come for one of the evening talks and let us grow and strengthen the profession.
Hi Paul,
Thanks for the elaborate reply.
My main concern is if it's legislated that people with valid IT Systems Audit certifications are the only ones doing IT audits for public interest organisations. The way only Lawyers can only do certain duties, or CPAs. Is this something feasible?
Regards
______________________ Mwendwa Kivuva, Nairobi, Kenya twitter.com/lordmwesh
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The Kenya ICT Action Network (KICTANet) is a multi-stakeholder platform for people and institutions interested and involved in ICT policy and regulation. The network aims to act as a catalyst for reform in the ICT sector in support of the national aim of ICT enabled growth and development.
KICTANetiquette : Adhere to the same standards of acceptable behaviors online that you follow in real life: respect people's times and bandwidth, share knowledge, don't flame or abuse or personalize, respect privacy, do not spam, do not market your wares or qualifications.
Disclosure: bank's so called 'IT audit' is part of what puts food on table in my house. The correct approach is Enterprise IT audit; looking at (core) system, data, processes. Then people and bank's strategy. Subject matter expertise (SMEs) on core system is must have for most Kenyans bank's, but as ESB's get adoption, that necessity will diminish. The worst mistake bank's make is to get 'IT audit' from conventional auditors. Technology side is cryptic, and unless you have someone who can ask the right questions, auditors will be made to find out what the bank IT team wants them to find out. Central banks IT audit should simply be outsourced to SMEs. Experts will not apply for employment with cbk. Also, you will not yet find the SMEs registered with a sector association. At the moment, highly qualified persons capable of doing a proper IT audit are so few, the world needs them more than they need the world. Unless central banks act fast (moreso in kenya), there will be faceless banks operating outside the regulator. Purely driven by peer to peer and non conventional delivery channels. Km On Apr 27, 2016 5:41 PM, "waudo siganga via kictanet" < kictanet@lists.kictanet.or.ke> wrote:
Hi Kivuva,
My understanding, although of course open to correction, is that IT Systems Auditors are essentially certified auditors with specialist training and skills to audit "through" and "around" IT systems. I would envisage someone with an auditing qualification backed up with a supplementary qualification is systems auditing but at the end of the day this person is an AUDITOR. In addition the training for today's certified auditors already includes systems audit as a subject. So the key skill is auditing, supplemented by systems knowledge. If this is the case then these professionals are already covered under statutory provisions.
Waudo
On Wed, Apr 27, 2016, at 04:25 PM, Mwendwa Kivuva via kictanet wrote:
On 27 April 2016 at 16:12, Paul Roy <roykoikai@gmail.com> wrote:
Last - As long as I am a the helm of ISACA Kenya, I would like to open up our doors to the various experts within the industry who are willing to retrain IT auditors, IT Security professionals to consider ISACA as an ally. Let us work together, talk to me, come for one of the evening talks and let us grow and strengthen the profession.
Hi Paul,
Thanks for the elaborate reply.
My main concern is if it's legislated that people with valid IT Systems Audit certifications are the only ones doing IT audits for public interest organisations. The way only Lawyers can only do certain duties, or CPAs. Is this something feasible?
Regards
______________________ Mwendwa Kivuva, Nairobi, Kenya twitter.com/lordmwesh
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KICTANetiquette : Adhere to the same standards of acceptable behaviors online that you follow in real life: respect people's times and bandwidth, share knowledge, don't flame or abuse or personalize, respect privacy, do not spam, do not market your wares or qualifications.
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KICTANetiquette : Adhere to the same standards of acceptable behaviors online that you follow in real life: respect people's times and bandwidth, share knowledge, don't flame or abuse or personalize, respect privacy, do not spam, do not market your wares or qualifications.
Machuhi, ESBs would be Enterprise Service Bus? If so, whats the current status of their adoption amongst Banks in .KE? Rgds On Thu, Apr 28, 2016 at 3:20 PM, K Machuhi via kictanet < kictanet@lists.kictanet.or.ke> wrote:
Disclosure: bank's so called 'IT audit' is part of what puts food on table in my house.
The correct approach is Enterprise IT audit; looking at (core) system, data, processes. Then people and bank's strategy. Subject matter expertise (SMEs) on core system is must have for most Kenyans bank's, but as ESB's get adoption, that necessity will diminish.
The worst mistake bank's make is to get 'IT audit' from conventional auditors. Technology side is cryptic, and unless you have someone who can ask the right questions, auditors will be made to find out what the bank IT team wants them to find out.
Central banks IT audit should simply be outsourced to SMEs. Experts will not apply for employment with cbk. Also, you will not yet find the SMEs registered with a sector association. At the moment, highly qualified persons capable of doing a proper IT audit are so few, the world needs them more than they need the world.
Unless central banks act fast (moreso in kenya), there will be faceless banks operating outside the regulator. Purely driven by peer to peer and non conventional delivery channels.
Km On Apr 27, 2016 5:41 PM, "waudo siganga via kictanet" < kictanet@lists.kictanet.or.ke> wrote:
Hi Kivuva,
My understanding, although of course open to correction, is that IT Systems Auditors are essentially certified auditors with specialist training and skills to audit "through" and "around" IT systems. I would envisage someone with an auditing qualification backed up with a supplementary qualification is systems auditing but at the end of the day this person is an AUDITOR. In addition the training for today's certified auditors already includes systems audit as a subject. So the key skill is auditing, supplemented by systems knowledge. If this is the case then these professionals are already covered under statutory provisions.
Waudo
On Wed, Apr 27, 2016, at 04:25 PM, Mwendwa Kivuva via kictanet wrote:
On 27 April 2016 at 16:12, Paul Roy <roykoikai@gmail.com> wrote:
Last - As long as I am a the helm of ISACA Kenya, I would like to open up our doors to the various experts within the industry who are willing to retrain IT auditors, IT Security professionals to consider ISACA as an ally. Let us work together, talk to me, come for one of the evening talks and let us grow and strengthen the profession.
Hi Paul,
Thanks for the elaborate reply.
My main concern is if it's legislated that people with valid IT Systems Audit certifications are the only ones doing IT audits for public interest organisations. The way only Lawyers can only do certain duties, or CPAs. Is this something feasible?
Regards
______________________ Mwendwa Kivuva, Nairobi, Kenya twitter.com/lordmwesh
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-- *Regards,* *Wait**haka Ngigi* Chief Executive Officer | Alliance Technologies | MCK Nairobi Synod Building T +254 20 525 0750 |Office Mobile: +254 716 201061 | M +254 737 811 000 www.at.co.ke
Hi Ngigi, Yes, Enterprise Service Bus. All major banks will tell you that they have ESB, but they are either shells or highly un-optimized installations. The difficult part in ESB is building connectors/ adapters to and from core system....and maintaining those adapters such that all applications are fully dependent on middleware and not point to point with core. The most ubiquitous ESBs... websphere, Oracle, Red Hat's JBoss Fuse and such others lifted off Gartner's magic quadrant come at a stiff implementation, support and maintenance cost. Other more robust and affordable such as I-CON from Prosol and Talend - lack name recognition and smooth talking salesmen; but are more promising (JBoss is not too expensive, but often confused with Wildfly - the open source API). Let me paste a very partial picture of ESB adoption in .ke A nice, best-of-breed bank acquired one of big name ESBs 4 years ago... it has never worked. To just get something configured you need a consultant from Mars at $500 per calendar hour, per diem to boot.....and hey - he flies business and must see family every 6 days. Another was cross-sold to an emerging ESB with little field proof....it worked....for a few years... could not scale...now they are changing.... The third example is too blatantly reckless to be written... The day central bank will demand ESB as a standard, is te day 1) banks will cut the shackles of core system vendors, 2) banking 'IT audit' will become easier and possible, and 3) changing/ upgrading core systems will no longer be as dramatic as today. You can read more here <http://www.jackhenrybanking.com> about possible direction banking platforms are headed. KM On Thu, Apr 28, 2016 at 3:30 PM, Ngigi Waithaka <ngigi@at.co.ke> wrote:
Machuhi,
ESBs would be Enterprise Service Bus? If so, whats the current status of their adoption amongst Banks in .KE?
Rgds
On Thu, Apr 28, 2016 at 3:20 PM, K Machuhi via kictanet < kictanet@lists.kictanet.or.ke> wrote:
Disclosure: bank's so called 'IT audit' is part of what puts food on table in my house.
The correct approach is Enterprise IT audit; looking at (core) system, data, processes. Then people and bank's strategy. Subject matter expertise (SMEs) on core system is must have for most Kenyans bank's, but as ESB's get adoption, that necessity will diminish.
The worst mistake bank's make is to get 'IT audit' from conventional auditors. Technology side is cryptic, and unless you have someone who can ask the right questions, auditors will be made to find out what the bank IT team wants them to find out.
Central banks IT audit should simply be outsourced to SMEs. Experts will not apply for employment with cbk. Also, you will not yet find the SMEs registered with a sector association. At the moment, highly qualified persons capable of doing a proper IT audit are so few, the world needs them more than they need the world.
Unless central banks act fast (moreso in kenya), there will be faceless banks operating outside the regulator. Purely driven by peer to peer and non conventional delivery channels.
Km On Apr 27, 2016 5:41 PM, "waudo siganga via kictanet" < kictanet@lists.kictanet.or.ke> wrote:
Hi Kivuva,
My understanding, although of course open to correction, is that IT Systems Auditors are essentially certified auditors with specialist training and skills to audit "through" and "around" IT systems. I would envisage someone with an auditing qualification backed up with a supplementary qualification is systems auditing but at the end of the day this person is an AUDITOR. In addition the training for today's certified auditors already includes systems audit as a subject. So the key skill is auditing, supplemented by systems knowledge. If this is the case then these professionals are already covered under statutory provisions.
Waudo
On Wed, Apr 27, 2016, at 04:25 PM, Mwendwa Kivuva via kictanet wrote:
On 27 April 2016 at 16:12, Paul Roy <roykoikai@gmail.com> wrote:
Last - As long as I am a the helm of ISACA Kenya, I would like to open up our doors to the various experts within the industry who are willing to retrain IT auditors, IT Security professionals to consider ISACA as an ally. Let us work together, talk to me, come for one of the evening talks and let us grow and strengthen the profession.
Hi Paul,
Thanks for the elaborate reply.
My main concern is if it's legislated that people with valid IT Systems Audit certifications are the only ones doing IT audits for public interest organisations. The way only Lawyers can only do certain duties, or CPAs. Is this something feasible?
Regards
______________________ Mwendwa Kivuva, Nairobi, Kenya twitter.com/lordmwesh
*_______________________________________________* kictanet mailing list kictanet@lists.kictanet.or.ke https://lists.kictanet.or.ke/mailman/listinfo/kictanet
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KICTANetiquette : Adhere to the same standards of acceptable behaviors online that you follow in real life: respect people's times and bandwidth, share knowledge, don't flame or abuse or personalize, respect privacy, do not spam, do not market your wares or qualifications.
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*Wait**haka Ngigi* Chief Executive Officer | Alliance Technologies | MCK Nairobi Synod Building T +254 20 525 0750 |Office Mobile: +254 716 201061 | M +254 737 811 000 www.at.co.ke
Machuhi, Interesting outlook. Been working with a couple of those, albeit in different industries. Would like to reach you on this, side-bar, as I am interested in understanding the current scenario in the local .KE Financial Circles. Will ping you on your Gmail. Rgds On Thu, Apr 28, 2016 at 4:40 PM, K Machuhi <kmachuhi@gmail.com> wrote:
Hi Ngigi,
Yes, Enterprise Service Bus. All major banks will tell you that they have ESB, but they are either shells or highly un-optimized installations.
The difficult part in ESB is building connectors/ adapters to and from core system....and maintaining those adapters such that all applications are fully dependent on middleware and not point to point with core.
The most ubiquitous ESBs... websphere, Oracle, Red Hat's JBoss Fuse and such others lifted off Gartner's magic quadrant come at a stiff implementation, support and maintenance cost. Other more robust and affordable such as I-CON from Prosol and Talend - lack name recognition and smooth talking salesmen; but are more promising
(JBoss is not too expensive, but often confused with Wildfly - the open source API). Let me paste a very partial picture of ESB adoption in .ke
A nice, best-of-breed bank acquired one of big name ESBs 4 years ago... it has never worked. To just get something configured you need a consultant from Mars at $500 per calendar hour, per diem to boot.....and hey - he flies business and must see family every 6 days.
Another was cross-sold to an emerging ESB with little field proof....it worked....for a few years... could not scale...now they are changing....
The third example is too blatantly reckless to be written...
The day central bank will demand ESB as a standard, is te day 1) banks will cut the shackles of core system vendors, 2) banking 'IT audit' will become easier and possible, and 3) changing/ upgrading core systems will no longer be as dramatic as today.
You can read more here <http://www.jackhenrybanking.com> about possible direction banking platforms are headed.
KM
On Thu, Apr 28, 2016 at 3:30 PM, Ngigi Waithaka <ngigi@at.co.ke> wrote:
Machuhi,
ESBs would be Enterprise Service Bus? If so, whats the current status of their adoption amongst Banks in .KE?
Rgds
On Thu, Apr 28, 2016 at 3:20 PM, K Machuhi via kictanet < kictanet@lists.kictanet.or.ke> wrote:
Disclosure: bank's so called 'IT audit' is part of what puts food on table in my house.
The correct approach is Enterprise IT audit; looking at (core) system, data, processes. Then people and bank's strategy. Subject matter expertise (SMEs) on core system is must have for most Kenyans bank's, but as ESB's get adoption, that necessity will diminish.
The worst mistake bank's make is to get 'IT audit' from conventional auditors. Technology side is cryptic, and unless you have someone who can ask the right questions, auditors will be made to find out what the bank IT team wants them to find out.
Central banks IT audit should simply be outsourced to SMEs. Experts will not apply for employment with cbk. Also, you will not yet find the SMEs registered with a sector association. At the moment, highly qualified persons capable of doing a proper IT audit are so few, the world needs them more than they need the world.
Unless central banks act fast (moreso in kenya), there will be faceless banks operating outside the regulator. Purely driven by peer to peer and non conventional delivery channels.
Km On Apr 27, 2016 5:41 PM, "waudo siganga via kictanet" < kictanet@lists.kictanet.or.ke> wrote:
Hi Kivuva,
My understanding, although of course open to correction, is that IT Systems Auditors are essentially certified auditors with specialist training and skills to audit "through" and "around" IT systems. I would envisage someone with an auditing qualification backed up with a supplementary qualification is systems auditing but at the end of the day this person is an AUDITOR. In addition the training for today's certified auditors already includes systems audit as a subject. So the key skill is auditing, supplemented by systems knowledge. If this is the case then these professionals are already covered under statutory provisions.
Waudo
On Wed, Apr 27, 2016, at 04:25 PM, Mwendwa Kivuva via kictanet wrote:
On 27 April 2016 at 16:12, Paul Roy <roykoikai@gmail.com> wrote:
Last - As long as I am a the helm of ISACA Kenya, I would like to open up our doors to the various experts within the industry who are willing to retrain IT auditors, IT Security professionals to consider ISACA as an ally. Let us work together, talk to me, come for one of the evening talks and let us grow and strengthen the profession.
Hi Paul,
Thanks for the elaborate reply.
My main concern is if it's legislated that people with valid IT Systems Audit certifications are the only ones doing IT audits for public interest organisations. The way only Lawyers can only do certain duties, or CPAs. Is this something feasible?
Regards
______________________ Mwendwa Kivuva, Nairobi, Kenya twitter.com/lordmwesh
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KICTANetiquette : Adhere to the same standards of acceptable behaviors online that you follow in real life: respect people's times and bandwidth, share knowledge, don't flame or abuse or personalize, respect privacy, do not spam, do not market your wares or qualifications.
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KICTANetiquette : Adhere to the same standards of acceptable behaviors online that you follow in real life: respect people's times and bandwidth, share knowledge, don't flame or abuse or personalize, respect privacy, do not spam, do not market your wares or qualifications.
-- *Regards,*
*Wait**haka Ngigi* Chief Executive Officer | Alliance Technologies | MCK Nairobi Synod Building T +254 20 525 0750 |Office Mobile: +254 716 201061 | M +254 737 811 000 www.at.co.ke
-- *Regards,* *Wait**haka Ngigi* Chief Executive Officer | Alliance Technologies | MCK Nairobi Synod Building T +254 20 525 0750 |Office Mobile: +254 716 201061 | M +254 737 811 000 www.at.co.ke
Machuhi Couldn't agree more with you. I particular love the sentence:-
The day central bank will demand ESB as a standard, is te day 1) banks will cut the shackles of core system vendors, 2) banking 'IT audit' will become easier and possible, and 3) changing/ upgrading core systems will no longer be as dramatic as today.
Thank you for that education and I can compare this statement to a discussion I had just a few days ago with a Tier 2 Bank CEO who was lamenting about the shackles of core banking systems they have been trying to unshackle for the last few years. This particular bank seems to be winning this war. The lesson here is prevention is better than cure. Anyone at CBK listening? Regards Ali Hussein Principal Hussein & Associates +254 0713 601113 / 0770906375 Twitter: @AliHKassim Skype: abu-jomo LinkedIn: http://ke.linkedin.com/in/alihkassim "Discovery consists in seeing what everyone else has seen and thinking what no one else has thought". ~ Albert Szent-Györgyi Sent from my iPad
On 28 Apr 2016, at 4:40 PM, K Machuhi via kictanet <kictanet@lists.kictanet.or.ke> wrote:
Hi Ngigi,
Yes, Enterprise Service Bus. All major banks will tell you that they have ESB, but they are either shells or highly un-optimized installations.
The difficult part in ESB is building connectors/ adapters to and from core system....and maintaining those adapters such that all applications are fully dependent on middleware and not point to point with core.
The most ubiquitous ESBs... websphere, Oracle, Red Hat's JBoss Fuse and such others lifted off Gartner's magic quadrant come at a stiff implementation, support and maintenance cost. Other more robust and affordable such as I-CON from Prosol and Talend - lack name recognition and smooth talking salesmen; but are more promising
(JBoss is not too expensive, but often confused with Wildfly - the open source API). Let me paste a very partial picture of ESB adoption in .ke
A nice, best-of-breed bank acquired one of big name ESBs 4 years ago... it has never worked. To just get something configured you need a consultant from Mars at $500 per calendar hour, per diem to boot.....and hey - he flies business and must see family every 6 days.
Another was cross-sold to an emerging ESB with little field proof....it worked....for a few years... could not scale...now they are changing....
The third example is too blatantly reckless to be written...
The day central bank will demand ESB as a standard, is te day 1) banks will cut the shackles of core system vendors, 2) banking 'IT audit' will become easier and possible, and 3) changing/ upgrading core systems will no longer be as dramatic as today.
You can read more here about possible direction banking platforms are headed.
KM
On Thu, Apr 28, 2016 at 3:30 PM, Ngigi Waithaka <ngigi@at.co.ke> wrote: Machuhi,
ESBs would be Enterprise Service Bus? If so, whats the current status of their adoption amongst Banks in .KE?
Rgds
On Thu, Apr 28, 2016 at 3:20 PM, K Machuhi via kictanet <kictanet@lists.kictanet.or.ke> wrote: Disclosure: bank's so called 'IT audit' is part of what puts food on table in my house.
The correct approach is Enterprise IT audit; looking at (core) system, data, processes. Then people and bank's strategy. Subject matter expertise (SMEs) on core system is must have for most Kenyans bank's, but as ESB's get adoption, that necessity will diminish.
The worst mistake bank's make is to get 'IT audit' from conventional auditors. Technology side is cryptic, and unless you have someone who can ask the right questions, auditors will be made to find out what the bank IT team wants them to find out.
Central banks IT audit should simply be outsourced to SMEs. Experts will not apply for employment with cbk. Also, you will not yet find the SMEs registered with a sector association. At the moment, highly qualified persons capable of doing a proper IT audit are so few, the world needs them more than they need the world.
Unless central banks act fast (moreso in kenya), there will be faceless banks operating outside the regulator. Purely driven by peer to peer and non conventional delivery channels.
Km
On Apr 27, 2016 5:41 PM, "waudo siganga via kictanet" <kictanet@lists.kictanet.or.ke> wrote: Hi Kivuva,
My understanding, although of course open to correction, is that IT Systems Auditors are essentially certified auditors with specialist training and skills to audit "through" and "around" IT systems. I would envisage someone with an auditing qualification backed up with a supplementary qualification is systems auditing but at the end of the day this person is an AUDITOR. In addition the training for today's certified auditors already includes systems audit as a subject. So the key skill is auditing, supplemented by systems knowledge. If this is the case then these professionals are already covered under statutory provisions.
Waudo
On Wed, Apr 27, 2016, at 04:25 PM, Mwendwa Kivuva via kictanet wrote:
On 27 April 2016 at 16:12, Paul Roy <roykoikai@gmail.com> wrote: Last - As long as I am a the helm of ISACA Kenya, I would like to open up our doors to the various experts within the industry who are willing to retrain IT auditors, IT Security professionals to consider ISACA as an ally. Let us work together, talk to me, come for one of the evening talks and let us grow and strengthen the profession.
Hi Paul,
Thanks for the elaborate reply.
My main concern is if it's legislated that people with valid IT Systems Audit certifications are the only ones doing IT audits for public interest organisations. The way only Lawyers can only do certain duties, or CPAs. Is this something feasible?
Regards
______________________ Mwendwa Kivuva, Nairobi, Kenya twitter.com/lordmwesh
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KICTANetiquette : Adhere to the same standards of acceptable behaviors online that you follow in real life: respect people's times and bandwidth, share knowledge, don't flame or abuse or personalize, respect privacy, do not spam, do not market your wares or qualifications.
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KICTANetiquette : Adhere to the same standards of acceptable behaviors online that you follow in real life: respect people's times and bandwidth, share knowledge, don't flame or abuse or personalize, respect privacy, do not spam, do not market your wares or qualifications.
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Waithaka Ngigi Chief Executive Officer | Alliance Technologies | MCK Nairobi Synod Building T +254 20 525 0750 |Office Mobile: +254 716 201061 | M +254 737 811 000 www.at.co.ke
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The Kenya ICT Action Network (KICTANet) is a multi-stakeholder platform for people and institutions interested and involved in ICT policy and regulation. The network aims to act as a catalyst for reform in the ICT sector in support of the national aim of ICT enabled growth and development.
KICTANetiquette : Adhere to the same standards of acceptable behaviors online that you follow in real life: respect people's times and bandwidth, share knowledge, don't flame or abuse or personalize, respect privacy, do not spam, do not market your wares or qualifications.
The vendor shackles are everywhere. Banks obviously have borne the blunt of it. Most ceos and ctos would rather buy the next new shiny solution from a believable vendor than do some homework and evaluate it based on merit and actual needs. Also lack of knowledge ignorance and arrogance by local evaluators makes it hard to oppose or otherwise challenge vendor marketing. On 28 Apr 2016 18:13, "Ali Hussein via kictanet" < kictanet@lists.kictanet.or.ke> wrote:
Machuhi
Couldn't agree more with you. I particular love the sentence:-
*The day central bank will demand ESB as a standard, is te day 1) banks will cut the shackles of core system vendors, 2) banking 'IT audit' will become easier and possible, and 3) changing/ upgrading core systems will no longer be as dramatic as today. *
Thank you for that education and I can compare this statement to a discussion I had just a few days ago with a Tier 2 Bank CEO who was lamenting about the shackles of core banking systems they have been trying to unshackle for the last few years. This particular bank seems to be winning this war.
The lesson here is prevention is better than cure.
Anyone at CBK listening?
Regards
*Ali Hussein* *Principal* *Hussein & Associates* +254 0713 601113 / 0770906375
Twitter: @AliHKassim
Skype: abu-jomo
LinkedIn: http://ke.linkedin.com/in/alihkassim
"Discovery consists in seeing what everyone else has seen and thinking what no one else has thought". ~ Albert Szent-Györgyi
Sent from my iPad
On 28 Apr 2016, at 4:40 PM, K Machuhi via kictanet < kictanet@lists.kictanet.or.ke> wrote:
Hi Ngigi,
Yes, Enterprise Service Bus. All major banks will tell you that they have ESB, but they are either shells or highly un-optimized installations.
The difficult part in ESB is building connectors/ adapters to and from core system....and maintaining those adapters such that all applications are fully dependent on middleware and not point to point with core.
The most ubiquitous ESBs... websphere, Oracle, Red Hat's JBoss Fuse and such others lifted off Gartner's magic quadrant come at a stiff implementation, support and maintenance cost. Other more robust and affordable such as I-CON from Prosol and Talend - lack name recognition and smooth talking salesmen; but are more promising
(JBoss is not too expensive, but often confused with Wildfly - the open source API). Let me paste a very partial picture of ESB adoption in .ke
A nice, best-of-breed bank acquired one of big name ESBs 4 years ago... it has never worked. To just get something configured you need a consultant from Mars at $500 per calendar hour, per diem to boot.....and hey - he flies business and must see family every 6 days.
Another was cross-sold to an emerging ESB with little field proof....it worked....for a few years... could not scale...now they are changing....
The third example is too blatantly reckless to be written...
The day central bank will demand ESB as a standard, is te day 1) banks will cut the shackles of core system vendors, 2) banking 'IT audit' will become easier and possible, and 3) changing/ upgrading core systems will no longer be as dramatic as today.
You can read more here <http://www.jackhenrybanking.com> about possible direction banking platforms are headed.
KM
On Thu, Apr 28, 2016 at 3:30 PM, Ngigi Waithaka <ngigi@at.co.ke> wrote:
Machuhi,
ESBs would be Enterprise Service Bus? If so, whats the current status of their adoption amongst Banks in .KE?
Rgds
On Thu, Apr 28, 2016 at 3:20 PM, K Machuhi via kictanet < kictanet@lists.kictanet.or.ke> wrote:
Disclosure: bank's so called 'IT audit' is part of what puts food on table in my house.
The correct approach is Enterprise IT audit; looking at (core) system, data, processes. Then people and bank's strategy. Subject matter expertise (SMEs) on core system is must have for most Kenyans bank's, but as ESB's get adoption, that necessity will diminish.
The worst mistake bank's make is to get 'IT audit' from conventional auditors. Technology side is cryptic, and unless you have someone who can ask the right questions, auditors will be made to find out what the bank IT team wants them to find out.
Central banks IT audit should simply be outsourced to SMEs. Experts will not apply for employment with cbk. Also, you will not yet find the SMEs registered with a sector association. At the moment, highly qualified persons capable of doing a proper IT audit are so few, the world needs them more than they need the world.
Unless central banks act fast (moreso in kenya), there will be faceless banks operating outside the regulator. Purely driven by peer to peer and non conventional delivery channels.
Km On Apr 27, 2016 5:41 PM, "waudo siganga via kictanet" < kictanet@lists.kictanet.or.ke> wrote:
Hi Kivuva,
My understanding, although of course open to correction, is that IT Systems Auditors are essentially certified auditors with specialist training and skills to audit "through" and "around" IT systems. I would envisage someone with an auditing qualification backed up with a supplementary qualification is systems auditing but at the end of the day this person is an AUDITOR. In addition the training for today's certified auditors already includes systems audit as a subject. So the key skill is auditing, supplemented by systems knowledge. If this is the case then these professionals are already covered under statutory provisions.
Waudo
On Wed, Apr 27, 2016, at 04:25 PM, Mwendwa Kivuva via kictanet wrote:
On 27 April 2016 at 16:12, Paul Roy <roykoikai@gmail.com> wrote:
Last - As long as I am a the helm of ISACA Kenya, I would like to open up our doors to the various experts within the industry who are willing to retrain IT auditors, IT Security professionals to consider ISACA as an ally. Let us work together, talk to me, come for one of the evening talks and let us grow and strengthen the profession.
Hi Paul,
Thanks for the elaborate reply.
My main concern is if it's legislated that people with valid IT Systems Audit certifications are the only ones doing IT audits for public interest organisations. The way only Lawyers can only do certain duties, or CPAs. Is this something feasible?
Regards
______________________ Mwendwa Kivuva, Nairobi, Kenya twitter.com/lordmwesh
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KICTANetiquette : Adhere to the same standards of acceptable behaviors online that you follow in real life: respect people's times and bandwidth, share knowledge, don't flame or abuse or personalize, respect privacy, do not spam, do not market your wares or qualifications.
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KICTANetiquette : Adhere to the same standards of acceptable behaviors online that you follow in real life: respect people's times and bandwidth, share knowledge, don't flame or abuse or personalize, respect privacy, do not spam, do not market your wares or qualifications.
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KICTANetiquette : Adhere to the same standards of acceptable behaviors online that you follow in real life: respect people's times and bandwidth, share knowledge, don't flame or abuse or personalize, respect privacy, do not spam, do not market your wares or qualifications.
-- *Regards,*
*Wait**haka Ngigi* Chief Executive Officer | Alliance Technologies | MCK Nairobi Synod Building T +254 20 525 0750 |Office Mobile: +254 716 201061 | M +254 737 811 000 www.at.co.ke
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KICTANetiquette : Adhere to the same standards of acceptable behaviors online that you follow in real life: respect people's times and bandwidth, share knowledge, don't flame or abuse or personalize, respect privacy, do not spam, do not market your wares or qualifications.
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The Kenya ICT Action Network (KICTANet) is a multi-stakeholder platform for people and institutions interested and involved in ICT policy and regulation. The network aims to act as a catalyst for reform in the ICT sector in support of the national aim of ICT enabled growth and development.
KICTANetiquette : Adhere to the same standards of acceptable behaviors online that you follow in real life: respect people's times and bandwidth, share knowledge, don't flame or abuse or personalize, respect privacy, do not spam, do not market your wares or qualifications.
Most of the problems faced are based on people (soft) issues. Technology does not necessarily solve people issues, it is just a facilitator, who says an ethical hacker cannot turn rogue using the same tools? As Waudo mentions we are not short of expertise , i think we are short of values. Regards On 4/27/16, Mwendwa Kivuva via kictanet <kictanet@lists.kictanet.or.ke> wrote:
Thanks Ali and Dr. Waudo.
Just wondering what is the view of ISACA Kenya Chapter on this, and the role they have played in ensuring such skills are legislated in statute. ISACA may be certifying experts who don't add any value in society when their resume are gathering digital dust in dropbox and Google drive. The questions we should be asking is how ICPAK was able to ensure their certifications are a must for somebody to perform any accounting work. Mr Paul Roy, the ball is in your court.
Regards
______________________ Mwendwa Kivuva, Nairobi, Kenya twitter.com/lordmwesh
On 27 April 2016 at 14:08, waudo siganga <emailsignet@mailcan.com> wrote:
Thanks for sharing Kivuva. The CBK should advertise for these positions. There are scores of very qualified candidates in Kenya.
Waudo
On Wed, Apr 27, 2016, at 12:55 PM, Mwendwa Kivuva via kictanet wrote:
http://www.nation.co.ke/business/CBK-lacks-tech-savvy-team-to-survey-local-l...
The Central Bank of Kenya’s (CBK) unit charged with supervising lenders lacks a tech savvy team to watch over transactions amid a confidence crisis after the collapse of three banks, Parliament was told Tuesday.
Gerald Nyaoma, head of bank supervision department, told MPs that his unit lacks the expertise to audit banks’ Information Technology (IT) systems—which rogue and greedy directors have exploited to lend themselves billions of shillings of depositors’ funds, breaching banking regulations.
“I acknowledge the key role that ICT experts would play at the department and this is the advice I personally gave the governor (CBK head Patrick Njoroge),” said Mr Nyaoma.
______________________ Mwendwa Kivuva, Nairobi, Kenya twitter.com/lordmwesh
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The Kenya ICT Action Network (KICTANet) is a multi-stakeholder platform for people and institutions interested and involved in ICT policy and regulation. The network aims to act as a catalyst for reform in the ICT sector in support of the national aim of ICT enabled growth and development.
KICTANetiquette : Adhere to the same standards of acceptable behaviors online that you follow in real life: respect people's times and bandwidth, share knowledge, don't flame or abuse or personalize, respect privacy, do not spam, do not market your wares or qualifications.
-- Barrack O. Otieno +254721325277 +254733206359 Skype: barrack.otieno PGP ID: 0x2611D86A
Same feedback I gave the governor several months ago. Happy that he is already reaching out for help. I should be meeting him next week. Paul Roy.
On 27 Apr 2016, at 12:55 PM, Mwendwa Kivuva via kictanet <kictanet@lists.kictanet.or.ke> wrote:
http://www.nation.co.ke/business/CBK-lacks-tech-savvy-team-to-survey-local-l...
The Central Bank of Kenya’s (CBK) unit charged with supervising lenders lacks a tech savvy team to watch over transactions amid a confidence crisis after the collapse of three banks, Parliament was told Tuesday.
Gerald Nyaoma, head of bank supervision department, told MPs that his unit lacks the expertise to audit banks’ Information Technology (IT) systems—which rogue and greedy directors have exploited to lend themselves billions of shillings of depositors’ funds, breaching banking regulations.
“I acknowledge the key role that ICT experts would play at the department and this is the advice I personally gave the governor (CBK head Patrick Njoroge),” said Mr Nyaoma.
______________________ Mwendwa Kivuva, Nairobi, Kenya twitter.com/lordmwesh
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The Kenya ICT Action Network (KICTANet) is a multi-stakeholder platform for people and institutions interested and involved in ICT policy and regulation. The network aims to act as a catalyst for reform in the ICT sector in support of the national aim of ICT enabled growth and development.
KICTANetiquette : Adhere to the same standards of acceptable behaviors online that you follow in real life: respect people's times and bandwidth, share knowledge, don't flame or abuse or personalize, respect privacy, do not spam, do not market your wares or qualifications.
participants (9)
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Ali Hussein -
Barrack Otieno -
John Gitau -
K Machuhi -
Mwendwa Kivuva -
Ngigi Waithaka -
Paul Roy -
Paul Roy Owino
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waudo siganga