Hi, While trying to push such laws shouldn't they be looking at credentialing people without formal ICT schooling but have the experience, knowledge and skills to back them? These people have talent and positively contribute in the industry. Some countries have learning institutions credentialing professionals based on their body of work and so long as they can demonstrate this they are awarded the degrees or other government approved certifications. Here is an example of such Link <http://www.ara.ac.nz/study-options/centre-for-assessment-of-prior-learning-capl> Liz On Mon, Dec 4, 2017 at 3:18 PM, Ahmed Mohamed Maawy via kictanet < [email protected]> wrote:

I wonder how some of the ground breaking technology companies - such as for instance Google Kenya, can operate if this bill is passed.

On Sun, Dec 3, 2017 at 4:57 PM, Watila Alex via kictanet < [email protected]> wrote:

...

EricKigada: Kenya’s controversial ICT Practitioners Bill 2016 to be tabled in parliament againtechmoran.com/kenyas-controv…https://twitter.com/EricKigada/status/937309893954031616

Sent from Yahoo Mail on Android <https://overview.mail.yahoo.com/mobile/?.src=Android>

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KICTANetiquette : Adhere to the same standards of acceptable behaviors online that you follow in real life: respect people's times and bandwidth, share knowledge, don't flame or abuse or personalize, respect privacy, do not spam, do not market your wares or qualifications.

-- *Ahmed Maawy* Head of Corporate Products - Al Jazeera Media Network Skype: ultimateprogramer

_______________________________________________ kictanet mailing list [email protected] https://lists.kictanet.or.ke/mailman/listinfo/kictanet Twitter: http://twitter.com/kictanet Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/KICTANet/

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The Kenya ICT Action Network (KICTANet) is a multi-stakeholder platform for people and institutions interested and involved in ICT policy and regulation. The network aims to act as a catalyst for reform in the ICT sector in support of the national aim of ICT enabled growth and development.

KICTANetiquette : Adhere to the same standards of acceptable behaviors online that you follow in real life: respect people's times and bandwidth, share knowledge, don't flame or abuse or personalize, respect privacy, do not spam, do not market your wares or qualifications.

-- Kind Regards Liz Wanjiru

Hi All, So – having seen an article in the standardmedia in which elements of what I stated below were quoted – and to which there seem to have been responses – I now need to comment further: (Article found at: https://www.standardmedia.co.ke/business/article/2001263257/techies-oppose-m...) Mucheru, however, denies that the Bill will lock out experts without formal training insisting the reverse will be the case. “This Bill will benefit the people who have been working in technical capacity for years but have not acquired certificates,” he explained. “If they can demonstrate their proficiency to the Institute then they can get certified and widen the scope of jobs they can bid or apply for.” So – I have a question – What will be the method of demonstrating proficiency and how will this be tested – and what will it cost – and how long will it take. Now – let me break the questions down a bit 1. The ICT field is vast – are you going to test proficiency in programming? In networking? In security? In database administration? In desktop support? In Linux? Freebsd? Microsoft? Solaris? AIX? What is the test going to be – and who is going to administer these tests 2. What makes an industry body more capable of testing proficiency than Cisco, Juniper, Huawei or any of the other vendors – the bill does *NOT* cater for industry standard certification outside of formal education – it simply is not in there – and if you are not going to accept these and are going to have this industry body determine proficiency – we need to know how this will be done and how the people testing proficiency will be qualified to do it – and in what fields they are qualified to test proficiency. 3. What is the cost of this testing of proficiency – does an individual who has certified as a CCIE at the cost of thousands – and in some cases tens of thousands – of dollars suddenly need to pay more to demonstrate something that he has clearly already demonstrated? Who will it be paid for? How will the money be utilized? Will this be included in the license fee for the first year? Or will this suddenly cost extra so someone can make some money? 4. How does does it take to “demonstrate proficiency” – and if I bring in someone from outside to train my staff in a new field of technology – is he going to be made to sit some kind of exam? Or pay some kind of fee before he can upskill Kenyans? Because – lets be real – that is not going to happen – it will be the death of bringing in people to impart knowledge. Let me be blunt – more than half the authors of the RFC’s within the IETF would not qualify under the bill as it stands – this means they would have to “demonstrate” their proficiency – despite the fact that they have their names on Internet standards – and if people expect these individuals to sit exams or prove to people that they know what they are doing – despite the knowledge having been clearly demonstrated (which is why they are being flown in in the first place, to train Kenyans in skills that are not available in the country so that those Kenyans can continue to further upskill and lift up the industry) – you can kiss goodbye to having cutting edge people coming into this country – it simply won’t happen – and it will be Kenya that loses out. Then to comment on this: Mucheru adds that the Government has held several engagements with practitioners in the sector on the provisions of the Bill. Correct – there was massive engagement – and the bill was largely defeated after the industry said it was broken – after people on this list said it was broken – after it was slammed left right and centre – so yes – there was engagement – but the article is wrong about the fact that the engagement agreed that this bill in its current form was a good idea or represented the correct solution. “There was consensus that we need to establish a professional body to regulate the industry,” he said. I have no problem with the concept of a professional body – I have major problems with forcing a situation where people who have potentially decades of experience have to suddenly “prove” their skills via some entirely undefined means at some undefined cost to a bunch of people who may or may not have anywhere close to the experience or knowledge of the person being tested. If we said that we had a professional body that people could register to – and they needed to be registered – and in the event of substantiated complaints the individual could be deregistered and blacklisted – I would have no problem. It is the arbitrary and unsubstantiated and undefined criteria for registration that I take exception to – and that I believe could result in expensive legal challenges. Please – do not get me wrong – I do not begrudge anyone who has a desire to genuinely root out the bad apples and clean up the industry and remove scam artists and fraudsters. I think that is a noble and pure objective that should be pursued. I however dispute the fact that this bill is the right way to go about it – and I dispute the fact that university degrees have anything to do with competence in this industry – particularly with the rate that technology evolves – because an individual doing a 3 year degree who is learning specific technologies in his first year – by the time he graduates – those technologies are history – and when he walks into the industry – he is having to self study it all again ANYWAY. Let me give you examples of technologies that did not exist a year ago in any real form: 1. Segment routing – the foundation of network routing going forward and the replacement to MPLS – how do I know this – because I’ve had my hands in crafting the specifications and doing a lot of the beta testing for it – so who is going to test proficiency here – it changes the game – and the only people qualified to teach it – or gauge the proficiency in it – do not themselves qualify under this bill to be registered. 2. Network telemetry processing – first introduced in limited form in Q3 2015 – and only now becoming main stream – but within a year of it being main stream – it will replace standard network monitoring entirely – who is going to teach that with a university degree? 3. Which university degree teaches BGP? BGP-LU? ISIS? Network segmentation? IPv6 addressing? The list is endless – these are things that cannot be learnt through a degree – they are learnt through industry standard certification or self-skilling by reading documentation. So, Mr Mucheru – please – do not read me wrong – I have tremendous respect for the regulator in this country – and it is testament to how well the Kenyan industry and the regulatory environment here works that today – Kenya has higher average mobile broadband speeds than either the US or South Africa or a lot of other places. It is testament to the regulatory environment here that we have the high-speed networks we do – and that the pricing is as low as it is – because the industry is competitive and open and innovative. This list of things the regulator has gotten right in this country is long - I do however plead with you, the bill as it stands would break the industry that all of us – yourself – myself – and so many others have worked so hard to build. I am NOT against a professional body – I am NOT against formalizing things – but I beg you – do not walk down the road of this current bill in its current form – it will be death to this industry in this country. Andrew Alston From: Andrew Alston <[email protected]> Date: Monday, 4 December 2017 at 01:24 To: KICTAnet ICT Policy Discussions <[email protected]> Cc: Liz Wanjiru <[email protected]> Subject: RE: [kictanet] ict practitioners bill is back I have to say – personally I cannot think of a worse piece of legislation that I have seen in recent history. Let us look at the net effects of this and the problems with it: 1. Large companies bring in consultants or external people where necessary to supplement capacity, to train and upskill Kenyan staff etc, while those guys are here, even for a week or two, they are compensated, and my reading of this bill is – this would be illegal – because you’d have to get every consultant you bring in accredited and licensed first – which is impractical in the extreme 2. The list of highly skilled people with 20+ years experience who would not qualify for accreditation under this bill is extensive, globally and within Kenya – this bill completely stops any form of knowledge transfer from those individuals and in fact will force a situation where Kenyan’s who wish to learn from some of the biggest names in the industry would be forced to go internationally to get that knowledge, rather than bringing those people in to train locally 3. It forces Kenyans who have spent years learning and honing their skills without university qualifications out of work and could well result in large scale job losses looking at the number of highly skilled individuals I know of who are working without qualifications 4. It prevents private companies from making what are normal business decisions – who they hire and who they pay. That is problematic in the extreme – in any normal situation if a private company hires staff that don’t perform – those staff either get fired or the market rejects the company and the company disappears – standard market dynamics – in this case – if a company finds extremely talented people they may be forced into a position where they have to hire less skilled people because someone can’t meet some accreditation requirement. 5. The bill has no recognition of prior experience – no recognition of those who have published papers and are world recognized experts – does not specify what the “recognized” universities are – does not take into account industry standard certification (CISSP/CCNA/CCIE/CCDP/JNCIE/JNCIP/JNCIA, the list is endless) 6. May well end up in the constitutional court when it deprives a host of people who have spent their lives working in this industry and have no other options for a career of the ability to earn a living The bill relies on the belief that a university qualification some how makes you better than those without – it’s reasoning that has been disproved globally for years and years and years – and it flies in the face of the global industry and the way the ICT industry has worked since the day it began. It is damaging to the industry in Kenya – it is damaging to the growth prospects of the economy as a result – it is damaging to the people of Kenya – and it will destroy the position that Kenya is in as one of the leaders of the ICT industry on the continent (Kenya already has the highest average broadband speeds on the continent and significantly better ICT infrastructure than you will find even in South Africa – it is doing so well – why break a system that is proving functional?) I really hope this does not pass – and if it does – will be curious to see the court challenges and how they play out – but I think this is madness personally – and in the name of stopping a few bad individuals – penalizes the entire country and will destroy an industry that employs thousands. Andrew From: kictanet [mailto:kictanet-bounces+andrew.alston=liquidtelecom.com@lists.kictanet.or.ke] On Behalf Of Liz Wanjiru via kictanet Sent: 04 December 2017 06:43 To: Andrew Alston <[email protected]> Cc: Liz Wanjiru <[email protected]> Subject: Re: [kictanet] ict practitioners bill is back Hi, While trying to push such laws shouldn't they be looking at credentialing people without formal ICT schooling but have the experience, knowledge and skills to back them? These people have talent and positively contribute in the industry. Some countries have learning institutions credentialing professionals based on their body of work and so long as they can demonstrate this they are awarded the degrees or other government approved certifications. Here is an example of such Link<http://www.ara.ac.nz/study-options/centre-for-assessment-of-prior-learning-capl> Liz On Mon, Dec 4, 2017 at 3:18 PM, Ahmed Mohamed Maawy via kictanet <[email protected]<mailto:[email protected]>> wrote: I wonder how some of the ground breaking technology companies - such as for instance Google Kenya, can operate if this bill is passed. On Sun, Dec 3, 2017 at 4:57 PM, Watila Alex via kictanet <[email protected]<mailto:[email protected]>> wrote: EricKigada: Kenya’s controversial ICT Practitioners Bill 2016 to be tabled in parliament again techmoran.com/kenyas-controv<http://techmoran.com/kenyas-controv>… https://twitter.com/EricKigada/status/937309893954031616<https://twitter.com/EricKigada/status/937309893954031616> Sent from Yahoo Mail on Android<https://overview.mail.yahoo.com/mobile/?.src=Android> _______________________________________________ kictanet mailing list [email protected]<mailto:[email protected]> https://lists.kictanet.or.ke/mailman/listinfo/kictanet<https://lists.kictanet.or.ke/mailman/listinfo/kictanet> Twitter: http://twitter.com/kictanet<http://twitter.com/kictanet> Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/KICTANet/<https://www.facebook.com/KICTANet/> Unsubscribe or change your options at https://lists.kictanet.or.ke/mailman/options/kictanet/ultimateprogramer%40gmail.com<https://lists.kictanet.or.ke/mailman/options/kictanet/ultimateprogramer%40gmail.com> The Kenya ICT Action Network (KICTANet) is a multi-stakeholder platform for people and institutions interested and involved in ICT policy and regulation. The network aims to act as a catalyst for reform in the ICT sector in support of the national aim of ICT enabled growth and development. KICTANetiquette : Adhere to the same standards of acceptable behaviors online that you follow in real life: respect people's times and bandwidth, share knowledge, don't flame or abuse or personalize, respect privacy, do not spam, do not market your wares or qualifications. -- Ahmed Maawy Head of Corporate Products - Al Jazeera Media Network Skype: ultimateprogramer _______________________________________________ kictanet mailing list [email protected]<mailto:[email protected]> https://lists.kictanet.or.ke/mailman/listinfo/kictanet<https://lists.kictanet.or.ke/mailman/listinfo/kictanet> Twitter: http://twitter.com/kictanet<http://twitter.com/kictanet> Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/KICTANet/<https://www.facebook.com/KICTANet/> Unsubscribe or change your options at https://lists.kictanet.or.ke/mailman/options/kictanet/lizwanjiru%40gmail.com<https://lists.kictanet.or.ke/mailman/options/kictanet/lizwanjiru%40gmail.com> The Kenya ICT Action Network (KICTANet) is a multi-stakeholder platform for people and institutions interested and involved in ICT policy and regulation. The network aims to act as a catalyst for reform in the ICT sector in support of the national aim of ICT enabled growth and development. KICTANetiquette : Adhere to the same standards of acceptable behaviors online that you follow in real life: respect people's times and bandwidth, share knowledge, don't flame or abuse or personalize, respect privacy, do not spam, do not market your wares or qualifications. -- Kind Regards Liz Wanjiru

Bwana Joe, Just like the FS industry adopts IFRS9 through the directives of the regulators globally, create the platform and the private sector will come and debate on international standards or guidelines that can be adopted. That’s my take. Denis Mutinda President, ISACA Kenya Chapter Sent from my iPhone

On 17 Dec 2017, at 05:25, Joseph Mucheru via kictanet <[email protected]> wrote:

The absence of dialogue and relying on media reports is a recipe for discord. The current views, sentiments and concerns raised in the group are justified only because there is no dialogue. Kicktanet is part of KEPSA who we are in constant dialogue even on this topic. Going forward, the need to dialogue through the agreed channels is key;

So let me try and give a position on where we are; I did state that we will need a Practitioners Bill and even clarified to media it would not be the current one There is currently NO Bill in parliament. The last one lapsed and we would need to start afresh The bill identified a need/gap in our sector that requires some action, especially since ICT is at the heart of the Governments development agenda The Industry was opposed with the method/solutions proposed by the Bill but not the fact there is a gap Other Industries have self regulating bodies and if our sector is to grow, we need to get organised and set this up. Why should government have to do it? We are exporting our skills regionally and internationally and a need to standardise and demonstrate our skills is key. This is because we are not working in isolation, we are competing with other countries and Kenya must be able to demonstrate consistent and quality skills -- today we are blacklisted on various online jobs platforms because of a few bad apples, while we know we have some of the best talents, we are also losing tenders and business because we have not conformed to specific international standards and so the rating of our products/services falls short. (KBS is working on the standards) And for the accusations... It was a private members bill and not sponsored by Government (We opposed it in its current form - you know that, otherwise google it). Responding to questions from the sector does not amount to a "roadside decision", considering the level of engagement we have had on this issue The Government is there to serve the people of Kenya and not just the sector in isolation Skills Rating systems used by platforms such as Kuhastle.com, upwork.com., cloudfactory.com, monster.com..etc are examples of ways people are able to build and demonstrate skills both technical and otherwise I have had engagements on this topic with KEPSA (ICT Sector Committee) - Mike Macharia being the Chair I saw in social media many of you opposed to ICTAK being enjoined in the supreme court presidential petition, but none came out (Kicktanet included) to support/represent the sector, which was at the heart of the dispute. At the very least ICTAK was willing to come forward. Similar to the Law Society, The Supreme Court should have chosen the ICT experts from the ICT Industry body? My advice would be for the sector to take the lead and suggest how this need/gap of "SKILLS RATING" standards etc.. can be addressed. We are on the same side. If industry does not take the lead, then Government will step in. As it stands, industry has various bodies and you need to agree on how to engage amongst yourselves. We are going to be successful and so let us push in the same direction.

Finally, today the official engagement between government and the ICT sector is through KEPSA . (KICTAnet, TESPOK, KITOS etc.. are members and even when we engaged on the ICT Practitioners bill, the sector was represented by KEPSA, when we met MPs).

The last discussion on Tuesday 14th December 2017 between KEPSA and the Ministry covered the following topics; ICT Policy Kick-off Industry meetings Bills / Opinions - ICT Practitioners Bill PDTP + Ajira Digital (Jobs) Flagship Projects Constituency Development Hubs ICTA Engagement with Counties Enterprise Kenya Blockchain Thank you!

...

On Sun, Dec 17, 2017 at 3:07 AM, Andrew Alston via kictanet <[email protected]> wrote: Hi All,

So – having seen an article in the standardmedia in which elements of what I stated below were quoted – and to which there seem to have been responses – I now need to comment further:

(Article found at: https://www.standardmedia.co.ke/business/article/2001263257/techies-oppose-m...)

Mucheru, however, denies that the Bill will lock out experts without formal training insisting the reverse will be the case. “This Bill will benefit the people who have been working in technical capacity for years but have not acquired certificates,” he explained. “If they can demonstrate their proficiency to the Institute then they can get certified and widen the scope of jobs they can bid or apply for.”

So – I have a question – What will be the method of demonstrating proficiency and how will this be tested – and what will it cost – and how long will it take.

Now – let me break the questions down a bit

The ICT field is vast – are you going to test proficiency in programming? In networking? In security? In database administration? In desktop support? In Linux? Freebsd? Microsoft? Solaris? AIX? What is the test going to be – and who is going to administer these tests What makes an industry body more capable of testing proficiency than Cisco, Juniper, Huawei or any of the other vendors – the bill does *NOT* cater for industry standard certification outside of formal education – it simply is not in there – and if you are not going to accept these and are going to have this industry body determine proficiency – we need to know how this will be done and how the people testing proficiency will be qualified to do it – and in what fields they are qualified to test proficiency. What is the cost of this testing of proficiency – does an individual who has certified as a CCIE at the cost of thousands – and in some cases tens of thousands – of dollars suddenly need to pay more to demonstrate something that he has clearly already demonstrated? Who will it be paid for? How will the money be utilized? Will this be included in the license fee for the first year? Or will this suddenly cost extra so someone can make some money? How does does it take to “demonstrate proficiency” – and if I bring in someone from outside to train my staff in a new field of technology – is he going to be made to sit some kind of exam? Or pay some kind of fee before he can upskill Kenyans? Because – lets be real – that is not going to happen – it will be the death of bringing in people to impart knowledge.

Let me be blunt – more than half the authors of the RFC’s within the IETF would not qualify under the bill as it stands – this means they would have to “demonstrate” their proficiency – despite the fact that they have their names on Internet standards – and if people expect these individuals to sit exams or prove to people that they know what they are doing – despite the knowledge having been clearly demonstrated (which is why they are being flown in in the first place, to train Kenyans in skills that are not available in the country so that those Kenyans can continue to further upskill and lift up the industry) – you can kiss goodbye to having cutting edge people coming into this country – it simply won’t happen – and it will be Kenya that loses out.

Then to comment on this:

Mucheru adds that the Government has held several engagements with practitioners in the sector on the provisions of the Bill.

Correct – there was massive engagement – and the bill was largely defeated after the industry said it was broken – after people on this list said it was broken – after it was slammed left right and centre – so yes – there was engagement – but the article is wrong about the fact that the engagement agreed that this bill in its current form was a good idea or represented the correct solution.

“There was consensus that we need to establish a professional body to regulate the industry,” he said.

I have no problem with the concept of a professional body – I have major problems with forcing a situation where people who have potentially decades of experience have to suddenly “prove” their skills via some entirely undefined means at some undefined cost to a bunch of people who may or may not have anywhere close to the experience or knowledge of the person being tested. If we said that we had a professional body that people could register to – and they needed to be registered – and in the event of substantiated complaints the individual could be deregistered and blacklisted – I would have no problem. It is the arbitrary and unsubstantiated and undefined criteria for registration that I take exception to – and that I believe could result in expensive legal challenges.

Please – do not get me wrong – I do not begrudge anyone who has a desire to genuinely root out the bad apples and clean up the industry and remove scam artists and fraudsters. I think that is a noble and pure objective that should be pursued. I however dispute the fact that this bill is the right way to go about it – and I dispute the fact that university degrees have anything to do with competence in this industry – particularly with the rate that technology evolves – because an individual doing a 3 year degree who is learning specific technologies in his first year – by the time he graduates – those technologies are history – and when he walks into the industry – he is having to self study it all again ANYWAY. Let me give you examples of technologies that did not exist a year ago in any real form:

Segment routing – the foundation of network routing going forward and the replacement to MPLS – how do I know this – because I’ve had my hands in crafting the specifications and doing a lot of the beta testing for it – so who is going to test proficiency here – it changes the game – and the only people qualified to teach it – or gauge the proficiency in it – do not themselves qualify under this bill to be registered. Network telemetry processing – first introduced in limited form in Q3 2015 – and only now becoming main stream – but within a year of it being main stream – it will replace standard network monitoring entirely – who is going to teach that with a university degree? Which university degree teaches BGP? BGP-LU? ISIS? Network segmentation? IPv6 addressing?

The list is endless – these are things that cannot be learnt through a degree – they are learnt through industry standard certification or self-skilling by reading documentation.

So, Mr Mucheru – please – do not read me wrong – I have tremendous respect for the regulator in this country – and it is testament to how well the Kenyan industry and the regulatory environment here works that today – Kenya has higher average mobile broadband speeds than either the US or South Africa or a lot of other places. It is testament to the regulatory environment here that we have the high-speed networks we do – and that the pricing is as low as it is – because the industry is competitive and open and innovative. This list of things the regulator has gotten right in this country is long - I do however plead with you, the bill as it stands would break the industry that all of us – yourself – myself – and so many others have worked so hard to build. I am NOT against a professional body – I am NOT against formalizing things – but I beg you – do not walk down the road of this current bill in its current form – it will be death to this industry in this country.

Andrew Alston

From: Andrew Alston <[email protected]> Date: Monday, 4 December 2017 at 01:24 To: KICTAnet ICT Policy Discussions <[email protected]> Cc: Liz Wanjiru <[email protected]> Subject: RE: [kictanet] ict practitioners bill is back

I have to say – personally I cannot think of a worse piece of legislation that I have seen in recent history.

Let us look at the net effects of this and the problems with it:

Large companies bring in consultants or external people where necessary to supplement capacity, to train and upskill Kenyan staff etc, while those guys are here, even for a week or two, they are compensated, and my reading of this bill is – this would be illegal – because you’d have to get every consultant you bring in accredited and licensed first – which is impractical in the extreme The list of highly skilled people with 20+ years experience who would not qualify for accreditation under this bill is extensive, globally and within Kenya – this bill completely stops any form of knowledge transfer from those individuals and in fact will force a situation where Kenyan’s who wish to learn from some of the biggest names in the industry would be forced to go internationally to get that knowledge, rather than bringing those people in to train locally It forces Kenyans who have spent years learning and honing their skills without university qualifications out of work and could well result in large scale job losses looking at the number of highly skilled individuals I know of who are working without qualifications It prevents private companies from making what are normal business decisions – who they hire and who they pay. That is problematic in the extreme – in any normal situation if a private company hires staff that don’t perform – those staff either get fired or the market rejects the company and the company disappears – standard market dynamics – in this case – if a company finds extremely talented people they may be forced into a position where they have to hire less skilled people because someone can’t meet some accreditation requirement. The bill has no recognition of prior experience – no recognition of those who have published papers and are world recognized experts – does not specify what the “recognized” universities are – does not take into account industry standard certification (CISSP/CCNA/CCIE/CCDP/JNCIE/JNCIP/JNCIA, the list is endless) May well end up in the constitutional court when it deprives a host of people who have spent their lives working in this industry and have no other options for a career of the ability to earn a living

The bill relies on the belief that a university qualification some how makes you better than those without – it’s reasoning that has been disproved globally for years and years and years – and it flies in the face of the global industry and the way the ICT industry has worked since the day it began. It is damaging to the industry in Kenya – it is damaging to the growth prospects of the economy as a result – it is damaging to the people of Kenya – and it will destroy the position that Kenya is in as one of the leaders of the ICT industry on the continent (Kenya already has the highest average broadband speeds on the continent and significantly better ICT infrastructure than you will find even in South Africa – it is doing so well – why break a system that is proving functional?)

I really hope this does not pass – and if it does – will be curious to see the court challenges and how they play out – but I think this is madness personally – and in the name of stopping a few bad individuals – penalizes the entire country and will destroy an industry that employs thousands.

Andrew

From: kictanet [mailto:kictanet-bounces+andrew.alston=liquidtelecom.com@lists.kictanet.or.ke] On Behalf Of Liz Wanjiru via kictanet Sent: 04 December 2017 06:43 To: Andrew Alston <[email protected]> Cc: Liz Wanjiru <[email protected]> Subject: Re: [kictanet] ict practitioners bill is back

Hi,

While trying to push such laws shouldn't they be looking at credentialing people without formal ICT schooling but have the experience, knowledge and skills to back them? These people have talent and positively contribute in the industry. Some countries have learning institutions credentialing professionals based on their body of work and so long as they can demonstrate this they are awarded the degrees or other government approved certifications. Here is an example of such

Link

Liz

On Mon, Dec 4, 2017 at 3:18 PM, Ahmed Mohamed Maawy via kictanet <[email protected]> wrote:

I wonder how some of the ground breaking technology companies - such as for instance Google Kenya, can operate if this bill is passed.

On Sun, Dec 3, 2017 at 4:57 PM, Watila Alex via kictanet <[email protected]> wrote:

EricKigada: Kenya’s controversial ICT Practitioners Bill 2016 to be tabled in parliament again techmoran.com/kenyas-controv… https://twitter.com/EricKigada/status/937309893954031616

Sent from Yahoo Mail on Android

_______________________________________________ kictanet mailing list [email protected] https://lists.kictanet.or.ke/mailman/listinfo/kictanet Twitter: http://twitter.com/kictanet Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/KICTANet/

Unsubscribe or change your options at https://lists.kictanet.or.ke/mailman/options/kictanet/ultimateprogramer%40gm...

The Kenya ICT Action Network (KICTANet) is a multi-stakeholder platform for people and institutions interested and involved in ICT policy and regulation. The network aims to act as a catalyst for reform in the ICT sector in support of the national aim of ICT enabled growth and development.

KICTANetiquette : Adhere to the same standards of acceptable behaviors online that you follow in real life: respect people's times and bandwidth, share knowledge, don't flame or abuse or personalize, respect privacy, do not spam, do not market your wares or qualifications.

--

Ahmed Maawy Head of Corporate Products - Al Jazeera Media Network Skype: ultimateprogramer

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The Kenya ICT Action Network (KICTANet) is a multi-stakeholder platform for people and institutions interested and involved in ICT policy and regulation. The network aims to act as a catalyst for reform in the ICT sector in support of the national aim of ICT enabled growth and development.

KICTANetiquette : Adhere to the same standards of acceptable behaviors online that you follow in real life: respect people's times and bandwidth, share knowledge, don't flame or abuse or personalize, respect privacy, do not spam, do not market your wares or qualifications.

-- Joseph Mucheru E.G.H Cabinet Secretary Ministry of Information Communications & Technology (ICT)

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The Kenya ICT Action Network (KICTANet) is a multi-stakeholder platform for people and institutions interested and involved in ICT policy and regulation. The network aims to act as a catalyst for reform in the ICT sector in support of the national aim of ICT enabled growth and development.

KICTANetiquette : Adhere to the same standards of acceptable behaviors online that you follow in real life: respect people's times and bandwidth, share knowledge, don't flame or abuse or personalize, respect privacy, do not spam, do not market your wares or qualifications.

Thanks for your enlightenment. Am just concerned about new emerging fields like information security and forensics which is mainly concerned with digital cyber crime and evidence presentation in courtroom. These is especially concerns for computer security and forensics professionals On Dec 17, 2017 6:12 AM, "Joseph Mucheru via kictanet" < [email protected]> wrote:

The absence of dialogue and relying on media reports is a recipe for discord. The current views, sentiments and concerns raised in the group are justified only because there is no dialogue. Kicktanet is part of KEPSA <https://kepsa.or.ke> who we are in constant dialogue even on this topic. Going forward, the need to dialogue through the agreed channels is key;

So let me try and give a position on where we are;

- I did state that we will need a Practitioners Bill and even clarified to media it would not be the current one - There is currently NO Bill in parliament. The last one lapsed and we would need to start afresh - The bill identified a need/gap in our sector that requires some action, especially since ICT is at the heart of the Governments development agenda - The Industry was opposed with the method/solutions proposed by the Bill but not the fact there is a gap - Other Industries have self regulating bodies and if our sector is to grow, we need to get organised and set this up. Why should government have to do it? - We are exporting our skills regionally and internationally and a need to standardise and demonstrate our skills is key. This is because we are not working in isolation, we are competing with other countries and Kenya must be able to demonstrate consistent and quality skills -- today we are blacklisted on various online jobs platforms because of a few bad apples, while we know we have some of the best talents, we are also losing tenders and business because we have not conformed to specific international standards and so the rating of our products/services falls short. (KBS is working on the standards)

And for the accusations...

- It was a private members bill and not sponsored by Government (We opposed it in its current form - you know that, otherwise google it). - Responding to questions from the sector does not amount to a "roadside decision", considering the level of engagement we have had on this issue - The Government is there to serve the people of Kenya and not just the sector in isolation - Skills Rating systems used by platforms such as Kuhastle.com, upwork.com., cloudfactory.com, monster.com..etc are examples of ways people are able to build and demonstrate skills both technical and otherwise - I have had engagements on this topic with KEPSA (ICT Sector Committee <https://kepsa.or.ke/sector-comittees/>) - Mike Macharia being the Chair - I saw in social media many of you opposed to ICTAK <http://www.ictak.or.ke/> being enjoined in the supreme court presidential petition, but none came out (Kicktanet included) to support/represent the sector, which was at the heart of the dispute. At the very least ICTAK <http://www.ictak.or.ke/> was willing to come forward. - Similar to the Law Society, The Supreme Court should have chosen the ICT experts from the ICT Industry body?

My advice would be for the sector to take the lead and suggest how this need/gap of* "SKILLS RATING" standards etc.. *can be addressed. We are on the same side. If industry does not take the lead, then Government will step in. As it stands, industry has various bodies and you need to agree on how to engage amongst yourselves. We are going to be successful and so let us push in the same direction.

Finally, today the official engagement between government and the ICT sector is through KEPSA <https://kepsa.or.ke/> . (KICTAnet, TESPOK, KITOS etc.. are members and even when we engaged on the ICT Practitioners bill, the sector was represented by KEPSA, when we met MPs).

The last discussion on Tuesday 14th December 2017 between KEPSA and the Ministry covered the following topics;

1. ICT Policy 2. Kick-off Industry meetings 3. Bills / Opinions - ICT Practitioners Bill 4. PDTP <http://icta.go.ke/digitalent/> + Ajira Digital <http://ajiradigital.go.ke/> (Jobs) 5. Flagship Projects 6. Constituency Development Hubs <http://www.ict.go.ke/constituency-to-get-an-innovation-hub/> 7. ICTA Engagement with Counties 8. Enterprise Kenya 9. Blockchain

Thank you!

On Sun, Dec 17, 2017 at 3:07 AM, Andrew Alston via kictanet < [email protected]> wrote:

...

Hi All,

So – having seen an article in the standardmedia in which elements of what I stated below were quoted – and to which there seem to have been responses – I now need to comment further:

(Article found at: https://www.standardmedia.co.k e/business/article/2001263257/techies-oppose-move-to- introduce-new-ict-watchdog)

*Mucheru, however, denies that the Bill will lock out experts without formal training insisting the reverse will be the case. “This Bill will benefit the people who have been working in technical capacity for years but have not acquired certificates,” he explained. “If they can demonstrate their proficiency to the Institute then they can get certified and widen the scope of jobs they can bid or apply for.” *

So – I have a question – What will be the method of demonstrating proficiency and how will this be tested – and what will it cost – and how long will it take.

Now – let me break the questions down a bit

1. The ICT field is vast – are you going to test proficiency in programming? In networking? In security? In database administration? In desktop support? In Linux? Freebsd? Microsoft? Solaris? AIX? What is the test going to be – and who is going to administer these tests 2. What makes an industry body more capable of testing proficiency than Cisco, Juniper, Huawei or any of the other vendors – the bill does * *NOT** cater for industry standard certification outside of formal education – it simply is not in there – and if you are not going to accept these and are going to have this industry body determine proficiency – we need to know how this will be done and how the people testing proficiency will be qualified to do it – and in what fields they are qualified to test proficiency. 3. What is the cost of this testing of proficiency – does an individual who has certified as a CCIE at the cost of thousands – and in some cases tens of thousands – of dollars suddenly need to pay more to demonstrate something that he has clearly already demonstrated? Who will it be paid for? How will the money be utilized? Will this be included in the license fee for the first year? Or will this suddenly cost extra so someone can make some money? 4. How does does it take to “demonstrate proficiency” – and if I bring in someone from outside to train my staff in a new field of technology – is he going to be made to sit some kind of exam? Or pay some kind of fee before he can upskill Kenyans? Because – lets be real – that is not going to happen – it will be the death of bringing in people to impart knowledge.

Let me be blunt – more than half the authors of the RFC’s within the IETF would not qualify under the bill as it stands – this means they would have to “demonstrate” their proficiency – despite the fact that they have their names on Internet standards – and if people expect these individuals to sit exams or prove to people that they know what they are doing – despite the knowledge having been clearly demonstrated (which is why they are being flown in in the first place, to train Kenyans in skills that are not available in the country so that those Kenyans can continue to further upskill and lift up the industry) – you can kiss goodbye to having cutting edge people coming into this country – it simply won’t happen – and it will be Kenya that loses out.

Then to comment on this:

*Mucheru adds that the Government has held several engagements with practitioners in the sector on the provisions of the Bill. *

Correct – there was massive engagement – and the bill was largely defeated after the industry said it was broken – after people on this list said it was broken – after it was slammed left right and centre – so yes – there was engagement – but the article is wrong about the fact that the engagement agreed that this bill in its current form was a good idea or represented the correct solution.

*“There was consensus that we need to establish a professional body to regulate the industry,” he said. *

I have no problem with the concept of a professional body – I have major problems with forcing a situation where people who have potentially decades of experience have to suddenly “prove” their skills via some entirely undefined means at some undefined cost to a bunch of people who may or may not have anywhere close to the experience or knowledge of the person being tested. If we said that we had a professional body that people could register to – and they needed to be registered – and in the event of *substantiated* complaints the individual could be deregistered and blacklisted – I would have no problem. It is the arbitrary and unsubstantiated and undefined criteria for registration that I take exception to – and that I believe could result in expensive legal challenges.

Please – do not get me wrong – I do not begrudge anyone who has a desire to genuinely root out the bad apples and clean up the industry and remove scam artists and fraudsters. I think that is a noble and pure objective that should be pursued. I however dispute the fact that this bill is the right way to go about it – and I dispute the fact that university degrees have anything to do with competence in this industry – particularly with the rate that technology evolves – because an individual doing a 3 year degree who is learning specific technologies in his first year – by the time he graduates – those technologies are history – and when he walks into the industry – he is having to self study it all again ANYWAY. Let me give you examples of technologies that did not exist a year ago in any real form:

1. Segment routing – the foundation of network routing going forward and the replacement to MPLS – how do I know this – because I’ve had my hands in crafting the specifications and doing a lot of the beta testing for it – so who is going to test proficiency here – it changes the game – and the only people qualified to teach it – or gauge the proficiency in it – do not themselves qualify under this bill to be registered. 2. Network telemetry processing – first introduced in limited form in Q3 2015 – and only now becoming main stream – but within a year of it being main stream – it will replace standard network monitoring entirely – who is going to teach that with a university degree? 3. Which university degree teaches BGP? BGP-LU? ISIS? Network segmentation? IPv6 addressing?

The list is endless – these are things that cannot be learnt through a degree – they are learnt through industry standard certification or self-skilling by reading documentation.

So, Mr Mucheru – please – do not read me wrong – I have tremendous respect for the regulator in this country – and it is testament to how well the Kenyan industry and the regulatory environment here works that today – Kenya has higher average mobile broadband speeds than either the US or South Africa or a lot of other places. It is testament to the regulatory environment here that we have the high-speed networks we do – and that the pricing is as low as it is – because the industry is competitive and open and innovative. This list of things the regulator has gotten right in this country is long - I do however plead with you, the bill as it stands would break the industry that all of us – yourself – myself – and so many others have worked so hard to build. I am NOT against a professional body – I am NOT against formalizing things – but I beg you – do not walk down the road of this current bill in its current form – it will be death to this industry in this country.

Andrew Alston

*From: *Andrew Alston <[email protected]> *Date: *Monday, 4 December 2017 at 01:24 *To: *KICTAnet ICT Policy Discussions <[email protected]> *Cc: *Liz Wanjiru <[email protected]> *Subject: *RE: [kictanet] ict practitioners bill is back

I have to say – personally I cannot think of a worse piece of legislation that I have seen in recent history.

Let us look at the net effects of this and the problems with it:

1. Large companies bring in consultants or external people where necessary to supplement capacity, to train and upskill Kenyan staff etc, while those guys are here, even for a week or two, they are compensated, and my reading of this bill is – this would be illegal – because you’d have to get every consultant you bring in accredited and licensed first – which is impractical in the extreme 2. The list of highly skilled people with 20+ years experience who would not qualify for accreditation under this bill is extensive, globally and within Kenya – this bill completely stops any form of knowledge transfer from those individuals and in fact will force a situation where Kenyan’s who wish to learn from some of the biggest names in the industry would be forced to go internationally to get that knowledge, rather than bringing those people in to train locally 3. It forces Kenyans who have spent years learning and honing their skills without university qualifications out of work and could well result in large scale job losses looking at the number of highly skilled individuals I know of who are working without qualifications 4. It prevents private companies from making what are normal business decisions – who they hire and who they pay. That is problematic in the extreme – in any normal situation if a private company hires staff that don’t perform – those staff either get fired or the market rejects the company and the company disappears – standard market dynamics – in this case – if a company finds extremely talented people they may be forced into a position where they have to hire less skilled people because someone can’t meet some accreditation requirement. 5. The bill has no recognition of prior experience – no recognition of those who have published papers and are world recognized experts – does not specify what the “recognized” universities are – does not take into account industry standard certification (CISSP/CCNA/CCIE/CCDP/JNCIE/JNCIP/JNCIA, the list is endless) 6. May well end up in the constitutional court when it deprives a host of people who have spent their lives working in this industry and have no other options for a career of the ability to earn a living

The bill relies on the belief that a university qualification some how makes you better than those without – it’s reasoning that has been disproved globally for years and years and years – and it flies in the face of the global industry and the way the ICT industry has worked since the day it began. It is damaging to the industry in Kenya – it is damaging to the growth prospects of the economy as a result – it is damaging to the people of Kenya – and it will destroy the position that Kenya is in as one of the leaders of the ICT industry on the continent (Kenya already has the highest average broadband speeds on the continent and significantly better ICT infrastructure than you will find even in South Africa – it is doing so well – why break a system that is proving functional?)

I really hope this does not pass – and if it does – will be curious to see the court challenges and how they play out – but I think this is madness personally – and in the name of stopping a few bad individuals – penalizes the entire country and will destroy an industry that employs thousands.

Andrew

*From:* kictanet [mailto:kictanet-bounces+andrew.alston= [email protected]] *On Behalf Of *Liz Wanjiru via kictanet *Sent:* 04 December 2017 06:43 *To:* Andrew Alston <[email protected]> *Cc:* Liz Wanjiru <[email protected]> *Subject:* Re: [kictanet] ict practitioners bill is back

Hi,

While trying to push such laws shouldn't they be looking at credentialing people without formal ICT schooling but have the experience, knowledge and skills to back them? These people have talent and positively contribute in the industry. Some countries have learning institutions credentialing professionals based on their body of work and so long as they can demonstrate this they are awarded the degrees or other government approved certifications. Here is an example of such

Link <http://www.ara.ac.nz/study-options/centre-for-assessment-of-prior-learning-capl>

Liz

On Mon, Dec 4, 2017 at 3:18 PM, Ahmed Mohamed Maawy via kictanet < [email protected]> wrote:

I wonder how some of the ground breaking technology companies - such as for instance Google Kenya, can operate if this bill is passed.

On Sun, Dec 3, 2017 at 4:57 PM, Watila Alex via kictanet < [email protected]> wrote:

EricKigada: Kenya’s controversial ICT Practitioners Bill 2016 to be tabled in parliament again

techmoran.com/kenyas-controv…

https://twitter.com/EricKigada/status/937309893954031616

Sent from Yahoo Mail on Android <https://overview.mail.yahoo.com/mobile/?.src=Android>

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The Kenya ICT Action Network (KICTANet) is a multi-stakeholder platform for people and institutions interested and involved in ICT policy and regulation. The network aims to act as a catalyst for reform in the ICT sector in support of the national aim of ICT enabled growth and development.

KICTANetiquette : Adhere to the same standards of acceptable behaviors online that you follow in real life: respect people's times and bandwidth, share knowledge, don't flame or abuse or personalize, respect privacy, do not spam, do not market your wares or qualifications.

--

*Ahmed Maawy* Head of Corporate Products - Al Jazeera Media Network Skype: ultimateprogramer

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The Kenya ICT Action Network (KICTANet) is a multi-stakeholder platform for people and institutions interested and involved in ICT policy and regulation. The network aims to act as a catalyst for reform in the ICT sector in support of the national aim of ICT enabled growth and development.

KICTANetiquette : Adhere to the same standards of acceptable behaviors online that you follow in real life: respect people's times and bandwidth, share knowledge, don't flame or abuse or personalize, respect privacy, do not spam, do not market your wares or qualifications.

--

Kind Regards

Liz Wanjiru

_______________________________________________ kictanet mailing list [email protected] https://lists.kictanet.or.ke/mailman/listinfo/kictanet Twitter: http://twitter.com/kictanet Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/KICTANet/

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The Kenya ICT Action Network (KICTANet) is a multi-stakeholder platform for people and institutions interested and involved in ICT policy and regulation. The network aims to act as a catalyst for reform in the ICT sector in support of the national aim of ICT enabled growth and development.

KICTANetiquette : Adhere to the same standards of acceptable behaviors online that you follow in real life: respect people's times and bandwidth, share knowledge, don't flame or abuse or personalize, respect privacy, do not spam, do not market your wares or qualifications.

-- Joseph Mucheru E.G.H *Cabinet Secretary* Ministry of Information Communications & Technology (ICT)

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The Kenya ICT Action Network (KICTANet) is a multi-stakeholder platform for people and institutions interested and involved in ICT policy and regulation. The network aims to act as a catalyst for reform in the ICT sector in support of the national aim of ICT enabled growth and development.

KICTANetiquette : Adhere to the same standards of acceptable behaviors online that you follow in real life: respect people's times and bandwidth, share knowledge, don't flame or abuse or personalize, respect privacy, do not spam, do not market your wares or qualifications.

Bwana CS With all due respect. You are a senior government official and shouldn’t peddle untruths. KICTANet HAS NEVER BEEN PART OF KEPSA. We have collaborated only once on the ICT BIll. Most of us don’t believe KEPSA is representative of the wider ICT Industry. We welcome dialogue with your ministry and KEPSA on this. We are happy to be included in the conversation. We however CANNOT endorse a dialogue and discussions we are not party to. Ali Hussein Principal Hussein & Associates +254 0713 601113 Twitter: @AliHKassim Skype: abu-jomo LinkedIn: http://ke.linkedin.com/in/alihkassim "We are what we repeatedly do. Excellence, therefore, is not an act but a habit." ~ Aristotle Sent from my iPad

On 17 Dec 2017, at 9:04 AM, Julius Njiraini via kictanet <[email protected]> wrote:

Digital forensic expert is involved in investigation of fraud, abuse, embezzlement, larceny, conversion of any digital device, records and process. The report is supposed to be presented in courtroom and testify as expert witness. He is also supposed to corroborate evidence with other segment of crime scene using relevant laws including evidence act, criminal procedures code and cyber crime laws as best international laws in other countries

...

On Dec 17, 2017 8:32 AM, "Julius Njiraini" <[email protected]> wrote: Thanks for your enlightenment. Am just concerned about new emerging fields like information security and forensics which is mainly concerned with digital cyber crime and evidence presentation in courtroom. These is especially concerns for computer security and forensics professionals

...

On Dec 17, 2017 6:12 AM, "Joseph Mucheru via kictanet" <[email protected]> wrote: The absence of dialogue and relying on media reports is a recipe for discord. The current views, sentiments and concerns raised in the group are justified only because there is no dialogue. Kicktanet is part of KEPSA who we are in constant dialogue even on this topic. Going forward, the need to dialogue through the agreed channels is key;

So let me try and give a position on where we are; I did state that we will need a Practitioners Bill and even clarified to media it would not be the current one There is currently NO Bill in parliament. The last one lapsed and we would need to start afresh The bill identified a need/gap in our sector that requires some action, especially since ICT is at the heart of the Governments development agenda The Industry was opposed with the method/solutions proposed by the Bill but not the fact there is a gap Other Industries have self regulating bodies and if our sector is to grow, we need to get organised and set this up. Why should government have to do it? We are exporting our skills regionally and internationally and a need to standardise and demonstrate our skills is key. This is because we are not working in isolation, we are competing with other countries and Kenya must be able to demonstrate consistent and quality skills -- today we are blacklisted on various online jobs platforms because of a few bad apples, while we know we have some of the best talents, we are also losing tenders and business because we have not conformed to specific international standards and so the rating of our products/services falls short. (KBS is working on the standards) And for the accusations... It was a private members bill and not sponsored by Government (We opposed it in its current form - you know that, otherwise google it). Responding to questions from the sector does not amount to a "roadside decision", considering the level of engagement we have had on this issue The Government is there to serve the people of Kenya and not just the sector in isolation Skills Rating systems used by platforms such as Kuhastle.com, upwork.com., cloudfactory.com, monster.com..etc are examples of ways people are able to build and demonstrate skills both technical and otherwise I have had engagements on this topic with KEPSA (ICT Sector Committee) - Mike Macharia being the Chair I saw in social media many of you opposed to ICTAK being enjoined in the supreme court presidential petition, but none came out (Kicktanet included) to support/represent the sector, which was at the heart of the dispute. At the very least ICTAK was willing to come forward. Similar to the Law Society, The Supreme Court should have chosen the ICT experts from the ICT Industry body? My advice would be for the sector to take the lead and suggest how this need/gap of "SKILLS RATING" standards etc.. can be addressed. We are on the same side. If industry does not take the lead, then Government will step in. As it stands, industry has various bodies and you need to agree on how to engage amongst yourselves. We are going to be successful and so let us push in the same direction.

Finally, today the official engagement between government and the ICT sector is through KEPSA . (KICTAnet, TESPOK, KITOS etc.. are members and even when we engaged on the ICT Practitioners bill, the sector was represented by KEPSA, when we met MPs).

The last discussion on Tuesday 14th December 2017 between KEPSA and the Ministry covered the following topics; ICT Policy Kick-off Industry meetings Bills / Opinions - ICT Practitioners Bill PDTP + Ajira Digital (Jobs) Flagship Projects Constituency Development Hubs ICTA Engagement with Counties Enterprise Kenya Blockchain Thank you!

...

On Sun, Dec 17, 2017 at 3:07 AM, Andrew Alston via kictanet <[email protected]> wrote: Hi All,

So – having seen an article in the standardmedia in which elements of what I stated below were quoted – and to which there seem to have been responses – I now need to comment further:

(Article found at: https://www.standardmedia.co.ke/business/article/2001263257/techies-oppose-m...)

Mucheru, however, denies that the Bill will lock out experts without formal training insisting the reverse will be the case. “This Bill will benefit the people who have been working in technical capacity for years but have not acquired certificates,” he explained. “If they can demonstrate their proficiency to the Institute then they can get certified and widen the scope of jobs they can bid or apply for.”

So – I have a question – What will be the method of demonstrating proficiency and how will this be tested – and what will it cost – and how long will it take.

Now – let me break the questions down a bit

The ICT field is vast – are you going to test proficiency in programming? In networking? In security? In database administration? In desktop support? In Linux? Freebsd? Microsoft? Solaris? AIX? What is the test going to be – and who is going to administer these tests What makes an industry body more capable of testing proficiency than Cisco, Juniper, Huawei or any of the other vendors – the bill does *NOT* cater for industry standard certification outside of formal education – it simply is not in there – and if you are not going to accept these and are going to have this industry body determine proficiency – we need to know how this will be done and how the people testing proficiency will be qualified to do it – and in what fields they are qualified to test proficiency. What is the cost of this testing of proficiency – does an individual who has certified as a CCIE at the cost of thousands – and in some cases tens of thousands – of dollars suddenly need to pay more to demonstrate something that he has clearly already demonstrated? Who will it be paid for? How will the money be utilized? Will this be included in the license fee for the first year? Or will this suddenly cost extra so someone can make some money? How does does it take to “demonstrate proficiency” – and if I bring in someone from outside to train my staff in a new field of technology – is he going to be made to sit some kind of exam? Or pay some kind of fee before he can upskill Kenyans? Because – lets be real – that is not going to happen – it will be the death of bringing in people to impart knowledge.

Let me be blunt – more than half the authors of the RFC’s within the IETF would not qualify under the bill as it stands – this means they would have to “demonstrate” their proficiency – despite the fact that they have their names on Internet standards – and if people expect these individuals to sit exams or prove to people that they know what they are doing – despite the knowledge having been clearly demonstrated (which is why they are being flown in in the first place, to train Kenyans in skills that are not available in the country so that those Kenyans can continue to further upskill and lift up the industry) – you can kiss goodbye to having cutting edge people coming into this country – it simply won’t happen – and it will be Kenya that loses out.

Then to comment on this:

Mucheru adds that the Government has held several engagements with practitioners in the sector on the provisions of the Bill.

Correct – there was massive engagement – and the bill was largely defeated after the industry said it was broken – after people on this list said it was broken – after it was slammed left right and centre – so yes – there was engagement – but the article is wrong about the fact that the engagement agreed that this bill in its current form was a good idea or represented the correct solution.

“There was consensus that we need to establish a professional body to regulate the industry,” he said.

I have no problem with the concept of a professional body – I have major problems with forcing a situation where people who have potentially decades of experience have to suddenly “prove” their skills via some entirely undefined means at some undefined cost to a bunch of people who may or may not have anywhere close to the experience or knowledge of the person being tested. If we said that we had a professional body that people could register to – and they needed to be registered – and in the event of substantiated complaints the individual could be deregistered and blacklisted – I would have no problem. It is the arbitrary and unsubstantiated and undefined criteria for registration that I take exception to – and that I believe could result in expensive legal challenges.

Please – do not get me wrong – I do not begrudge anyone who has a desire to genuinely root out the bad apples and clean up the industry and remove scam artists and fraudsters. I think that is a noble and pure objective that should be pursued. I however dispute the fact that this bill is the right way to go about it – and I dispute the fact that university degrees have anything to do with competence in this industry – particularly with the rate that technology evolves – because an individual doing a 3 year degree who is learning specific technologies in his first year – by the time he graduates – those technologies are history – and when he walks into the industry – he is having to self study it all again ANYWAY. Let me give you examples of technologies that did not exist a year ago in any real form:

Segment routing – the foundation of network routing going forward and the replacement to MPLS – how do I know this – because I’ve had my hands in crafting the specifications and doing a lot of the beta testing for it – so who is going to test proficiency here – it changes the game – and the only people qualified to teach it – or gauge the proficiency in it – do not themselves qualify under this bill to be registered. Network telemetry processing – first introduced in limited form in Q3 2015 – and only now becoming main stream – but within a year of it being main stream – it will replace standard network monitoring entirely – who is going to teach that with a university degree? Which university degree teaches BGP? BGP-LU? ISIS? Network segmentation? IPv6 addressing?

The list is endless – these are things that cannot be learnt through a degree – they are learnt through industry standard certification or self-skilling by reading documentation.

So, Mr Mucheru – please – do not read me wrong – I have tremendous respect for the regulator in this country – and it is testament to how well the Kenyan industry and the regulatory environment here works that today – Kenya has higher average mobile broadband speeds than either the US or South Africa or a lot of other places. It is testament to the regulatory environment here that we have the high-speed networks we do – and that the pricing is as low as it is – because the industry is competitive and open and innovative. This list of things the regulator has gotten right in this country is long - I do however plead with you, the bill as it stands would break the industry that all of us – yourself – myself – and so many others have worked so hard to build. I am NOT against a professional body – I am NOT against formalizing things – but I beg you – do not walk down the road of this current bill in its current form – it will be death to this industry in this country.

Andrew Alston

From: Andrew Alston <[email protected]> Date: Monday, 4 December 2017 at 01:24 To: KICTAnet ICT Policy Discussions <[email protected]> Cc: Liz Wanjiru <[email protected]> Subject: RE: [kictanet] ict practitioners bill is back

I have to say – personally I cannot think of a worse piece of legislation that I have seen in recent history.

Let us look at the net effects of this and the problems with it:

Large companies bring in consultants or external people where necessary to supplement capacity, to train and upskill Kenyan staff etc, while those guys are here, even for a week or two, they are compensated, and my reading of this bill is – this would be illegal – because you’d have to get every consultant you bring in accredited and licensed first – which is impractical in the extreme The list of highly skilled people with 20+ years experience who would not qualify for accreditation under this bill is extensive, globally and within Kenya – this bill completely stops any form of knowledge transfer from those individuals and in fact will force a situation where Kenyan’s who wish to learn from some of the biggest names in the industry would be forced to go internationally to get that knowledge, rather than bringing those people in to train locally It forces Kenyans who have spent years learning and honing their skills without university qualifications out of work and could well result in large scale job losses looking at the number of highly skilled individuals I know of who are working without qualifications It prevents private companies from making what are normal business decisions – who they hire and who they pay. That is problematic in the extreme – in any normal situation if a private company hires staff that don’t perform – those staff either get fired or the market rejects the company and the company disappears – standard market dynamics – in this case – if a company finds extremely talented people they may be forced into a position where they have to hire less skilled people because someone can’t meet some accreditation requirement. The bill has no recognition of prior experience – no recognition of those who have published papers and are world recognized experts – does not specify what the “recognized” universities are – does not take into account industry standard certification (CISSP/CCNA/CCIE/CCDP/JNCIE/JNCIP/JNCIA, the list is endless) May well end up in the constitutional court when it deprives a host of people who have spent their lives working in this industry and have no other options for a career of the ability to earn a living

The bill relies on the belief that a university qualification some how makes you better than those without – it’s reasoning that has been disproved globally for years and years and years – and it flies in the face of the global industry and the way the ICT industry has worked since the day it began. It is damaging to the industry in Kenya – it is damaging to the growth prospects of the economy as a result – it is damaging to the people of Kenya – and it will destroy the position that Kenya is in as one of the leaders of the ICT industry on the continent (Kenya already has the highest average broadband speeds on the continent and significantly better ICT infrastructure than you will find even in South Africa – it is doing so well – why break a system that is proving functional?)

I really hope this does not pass – and if it does – will be curious to see the court challenges and how they play out – but I think this is madness personally – and in the name of stopping a few bad individuals – penalizes the entire country and will destroy an industry that employs thousands.

Andrew

From: kictanet [mailto:kictanet-bounces+andrew.alston=liquidtelecom.com@lists.kictanet.or.ke] On Behalf Of Liz Wanjiru via kictanet Sent: 04 December 2017 06:43 To: Andrew Alston <[email protected]> Cc: Liz Wanjiru <[email protected]> Subject: Re: [kictanet] ict practitioners bill is back

Hi,

While trying to push such laws shouldn't they be looking at credentialing people without formal ICT schooling but have the experience, knowledge and skills to back them? These people have talent and positively contribute in the industry. Some countries have learning institutions credentialing professionals based on their body of work and so long as they can demonstrate this they are awarded the degrees or other government approved certifications. Here is an example of such

Link

Liz

On Mon, Dec 4, 2017 at 3:18 PM, Ahmed Mohamed Maawy via kictanet <[email protected]> wrote:

I wonder how some of the ground breaking technology companies - such as for instance Google Kenya, can operate if this bill is passed.

On Sun, Dec 3, 2017 at 4:57 PM, Watila Alex via kictanet <[email protected]> wrote:

EricKigada: Kenya’s controversial ICT Practitioners Bill 2016 to be tabled in parliament again techmoran.com/kenyas-controv… https://twitter.com/EricKigada/status/937309893954031616

Sent from Yahoo Mail on Android

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Bwana Mucheru. Thank you for the further clarifications. I would also suggest that the issue of Skills Rating is not left as an isolated element. There should be additional initiatives. Skills rating can bring up frameworks where we can survey the demographic (of-course in a nature promoting privacy). The structure of the surveys can then facilitate planning. So in addition to Skills Assessment, the data needs to inform strategic action areas - whats lacking in the market, what needs to be done to improve skillsets, and support innovation. Lets just say data scientists need to be involved in the process in short. These frameworks need to feed into initiatives. With the right data we can know how to address the right issues, but we need also experts in various fields who can look at whats lacking and provide recommendations. Technology Hubs stand to be stakeholders in this, they need to be aided with experts. My humble opinion is that we as KICTANET together with our KICTANET Proposed ICT Policy can definitely be united in this matter and can be key in rolling out such frameworks. I am sure the suggestions we have made in our draft policy are 100% compatible to this proposal I am making. What we need is to have a dedicated forum to discuss this workflow. And it doesn't have to be complicated. This forum can be done in 6 hours max, and the framework will need to be agile. We can iterate and learn gradually, and adjust with changing market dynamics over time. I believe lets please take this up and push it. On Sun, Dec 17, 2017 at 5:25 AM, Joseph Mucheru via kictanet < [email protected]> wrote:

The absence of dialogue and relying on media reports is a recipe for discord. The current views, sentiments and concerns raised in the group are justified only because there is no dialogue. Kicktanet is part of KEPSA <https://kepsa.or.ke> who we are in constant dialogue even on this topic. Going forward, the need to dialogue through the agreed channels is key;

So let me try and give a position on where we are;

- I did state that we will need a Practitioners Bill and even clarified to media it would not be the current one - There is currently NO Bill in parliament. The last one lapsed and we would need to start afresh - The bill identified a need/gap in our sector that requires some action, especially since ICT is at the heart of the Governments development agenda - The Industry was opposed with the method/solutions proposed by the Bill but not the fact there is a gap - Other Industries have self regulating bodies and if our sector is to grow, we need to get organised and set this up. Why should government have to do it? - We are exporting our skills regionally and internationally and a need to standardise and demonstrate our skills is key. This is because we are not working in isolation, we are competing with other countries and Kenya must be able to demonstrate consistent and quality skills -- today we are blacklisted on various online jobs platforms because of a few bad apples, while we know we have some of the best talents, we are also losing tenders and business because we have not conformed to specific international standards and so the rating of our products/services falls short. (KBS is working on the standards)

And for the accusations...

- It was a private members bill and not sponsored by Government (We opposed it in its current form - you know that, otherwise google it). - Responding to questions from the sector does not amount to a "roadside decision", considering the level of engagement we have had on this issue - The Government is there to serve the people of Kenya and not just the sector in isolation - Skills Rating systems used by platforms such as Kuhastle.com, upwork.com., cloudfactory.com, monster.com..etc are examples of ways people are able to build and demonstrate skills both technical and otherwise - I have had engagements on this topic with KEPSA (ICT Sector Committee <https://kepsa.or.ke/sector-comittees/>) - Mike Macharia being the Chair - I saw in social media many of you opposed to ICTAK <http://www.ictak.or.ke/> being enjoined in the supreme court presidential petition, but none came out (Kicktanet included) to support/represent the sector, which was at the heart of the dispute. At the very least ICTAK <http://www.ictak.or.ke/> was willing to come forward. - Similar to the Law Society, The Supreme Court should have chosen the ICT experts from the ICT Industry body?

My advice would be for the sector to take the lead and suggest how this need/gap of* "SKILLS RATING" standards etc.. *can be addressed. We are on the same side. If industry does not take the lead, then Government will step in. As it stands, industry has various bodies and you need to agree on how to engage amongst yourselves. We are going to be successful and so let us push in the same direction.

Finally, today the official engagement between government and the ICT sector is through KEPSA <https://kepsa.or.ke/> . (KICTAnet, TESPOK, KITOS etc.. are members and even when we engaged on the ICT Practitioners bill, the sector was represented by KEPSA, when we met MPs).

The last discussion on Tuesday 14th December 2017 between KEPSA and the Ministry covered the following topics;

1. ICT Policy 2. Kick-off Industry meetings 3. Bills / Opinions - ICT Practitioners Bill 4. PDTP <http://icta.go.ke/digitalent/> + Ajira Digital <http://ajiradigital.go.ke/> (Jobs) 5. Flagship Projects 6. Constituency Development Hubs <http://www.ict.go.ke/constituency-to-get-an-innovation-hub/> 7. ICTA Engagement with Counties 8. Enterprise Kenya 9. Blockchain

Thank you!

On Sun, Dec 17, 2017 at 3:07 AM, Andrew Alston via kictanet < [email protected]> wrote:

...

Hi All,

So – having seen an article in the standardmedia in which elements of what I stated below were quoted – and to which there seem to have been responses – I now need to comment further:

(Article found at: https://www.standardmedia.co.k e/business/article/2001263257/techies-oppose-move-to-introdu ce-new-ict-watchdog)

*Mucheru, however, denies that the Bill will lock out experts without formal training insisting the reverse will be the case. “This Bill will benefit the people who have been working in technical capacity for years but have not acquired certificates,” he explained. “If they can demonstrate their proficiency to the Institute then they can get certified and widen the scope of jobs they can bid or apply for.” *

So – I have a question – What will be the method of demonstrating proficiency and how will this be tested – and what will it cost – and how long will it take.

Now – let me break the questions down a bit

1. The ICT field is vast – are you going to test proficiency in programming? In networking? In security? In database administration? In desktop support? In Linux? Freebsd? Microsoft? Solaris? AIX? What is the test going to be – and who is going to administer these tests 2. What makes an industry body more capable of testing proficiency than Cisco, Juniper, Huawei or any of the other vendors – the bill does * *NOT** cater for industry standard certification outside of formal education – it simply is not in there – and if you are not going to accept these and are going to have this industry body determine proficiency – we need to know how this will be done and how the people testing proficiency will be qualified to do it – and in what fields they are qualified to test proficiency. 3. What is the cost of this testing of proficiency – does an individual who has certified as a CCIE at the cost of thousands – and in some cases tens of thousands – of dollars suddenly need to pay more to demonstrate something that he has clearly already demonstrated? Who will it be paid for? How will the money be utilized? Will this be included in the license fee for the first year? Or will this suddenly cost extra so someone can make some money? 4. How does does it take to “demonstrate proficiency” – and if I bring in someone from outside to train my staff in a new field of technology – is he going to be made to sit some kind of exam? Or pay some kind of fee before he can upskill Kenyans? Because – lets be real – that is not going to happen – it will be the death of bringing in people to impart knowledge.

Let me be blunt – more than half the authors of the RFC’s within the IETF would not qualify under the bill as it stands – this means they would have to “demonstrate” their proficiency – despite the fact that they have their names on Internet standards – and if people expect these individuals to sit exams or prove to people that they know what they are doing – despite the knowledge having been clearly demonstrated (which is why they are being flown in in the first place, to train Kenyans in skills that are not available in the country so that those Kenyans can continue to further upskill and lift up the industry) – you can kiss goodbye to having cutting edge people coming into this country – it simply won’t happen – and it will be Kenya that loses out.

Then to comment on this:

*Mucheru adds that the Government has held several engagements with practitioners in the sector on the provisions of the Bill. *

Correct – there was massive engagement – and the bill was largely defeated after the industry said it was broken – after people on this list said it was broken – after it was slammed left right and centre – so yes – there was engagement – but the article is wrong about the fact that the engagement agreed that this bill in its current form was a good idea or represented the correct solution.

*“There was consensus that we need to establish a professional body to regulate the industry,” he said. *

I have no problem with the concept of a professional body – I have major problems with forcing a situation where people who have potentially decades of experience have to suddenly “prove” their skills via some entirely undefined means at some undefined cost to a bunch of people who may or may not have anywhere close to the experience or knowledge of the person being tested. If we said that we had a professional body that people could register to – and they needed to be registered – and in the event of *substantiated* complaints the individual could be deregistered and blacklisted – I would have no problem. It is the arbitrary and unsubstantiated and undefined criteria for registration that I take exception to – and that I believe could result in expensive legal challenges.

Please – do not get me wrong – I do not begrudge anyone who has a desire to genuinely root out the bad apples and clean up the industry and remove scam artists and fraudsters. I think that is a noble and pure objective that should be pursued. I however dispute the fact that this bill is the right way to go about it – and I dispute the fact that university degrees have anything to do with competence in this industry – particularly with the rate that technology evolves – because an individual doing a 3 year degree who is learning specific technologies in his first year – by the time he graduates – those technologies are history – and when he walks into the industry – he is having to self study it all again ANYWAY. Let me give you examples of technologies that did not exist a year ago in any real form:

1. Segment routing – the foundation of network routing going forward and the replacement to MPLS – how do I know this – because I’ve had my hands in crafting the specifications and doing a lot of the beta testing for it – so who is going to test proficiency here – it changes the game – and the only people qualified to teach it – or gauge the proficiency in it – do not themselves qualify under this bill to be registered. 2. Network telemetry processing – first introduced in limited form in Q3 2015 – and only now becoming main stream – but within a year of it being main stream – it will replace standard network monitoring entirely – who is going to teach that with a university degree? 3. Which university degree teaches BGP? BGP-LU? ISIS? Network segmentation? IPv6 addressing?

The list is endless – these are things that cannot be learnt through a degree – they are learnt through industry standard certification or self-skilling by reading documentation.

So, Mr Mucheru – please – do not read me wrong – I have tremendous respect for the regulator in this country – and it is testament to how well the Kenyan industry and the regulatory environment here works that today – Kenya has higher average mobile broadband speeds than either the US or South Africa or a lot of other places. It is testament to the regulatory environment here that we have the high-speed networks we do – and that the pricing is as low as it is – because the industry is competitive and open and innovative. This list of things the regulator has gotten right in this country is long - I do however plead with you, the bill as it stands would break the industry that all of us – yourself – myself – and so many others have worked so hard to build. I am NOT against a professional body – I am NOT against formalizing things – but I beg you – do not walk down the road of this current bill in its current form – it will be death to this industry in this country.

Andrew Alston

*From: *Andrew Alston <[email protected]> *Date: *Monday, 4 December 2017 at 01:24 *To: *KICTAnet ICT Policy Discussions <[email protected]> *Cc: *Liz Wanjiru <[email protected]> *Subject: *RE: [kictanet] ict practitioners bill is back

I have to say – personally I cannot think of a worse piece of legislation that I have seen in recent history.

Let us look at the net effects of this and the problems with it:

1. Large companies bring in consultants or external people where necessary to supplement capacity, to train and upskill Kenyan staff etc, while those guys are here, even for a week or two, they are compensated, and my reading of this bill is – this would be illegal – because you’d have to get every consultant you bring in accredited and licensed first – which is impractical in the extreme 2. The list of highly skilled people with 20+ years experience who would not qualify for accreditation under this bill is extensive, globally and within Kenya – this bill completely stops any form of knowledge transfer from those individuals and in fact will force a situation where Kenyan’s who wish to learn from some of the biggest names in the industry would be forced to go internationally to get that knowledge, rather than bringing those people in to train locally 3. It forces Kenyans who have spent years learning and honing their skills without university qualifications out of work and could well result in large scale job losses looking at the number of highly skilled individuals I know of who are working without qualifications 4. It prevents private companies from making what are normal business decisions – who they hire and who they pay. That is problematic in the extreme – in any normal situation if a private company hires staff that don’t perform – those staff either get fired or the market rejects the company and the company disappears – standard market dynamics – in this case – if a company finds extremely talented people they may be forced into a position where they have to hire less skilled people because someone can’t meet some accreditation requirement. 5. The bill has no recognition of prior experience – no recognition of those who have published papers and are world recognized experts – does not specify what the “recognized” universities are – does not take into account industry standard certification (CISSP/CCNA/CCIE/CCDP/JNCIE/JNCIP/JNCIA, the list is endless) 6. May well end up in the constitutional court when it deprives a host of people who have spent their lives working in this industry and have no other options for a career of the ability to earn a living

The bill relies on the belief that a university qualification some how makes you better than those without – it’s reasoning that has been disproved globally for years and years and years – and it flies in the face of the global industry and the way the ICT industry has worked since the day it began. It is damaging to the industry in Kenya – it is damaging to the growth prospects of the economy as a result – it is damaging to the people of Kenya – and it will destroy the position that Kenya is in as one of the leaders of the ICT industry on the continent (Kenya already has the highest average broadband speeds on the continent and significantly better ICT infrastructure than you will find even in South Africa – it is doing so well – why break a system that is proving functional?)

I really hope this does not pass – and if it does – will be curious to see the court challenges and how they play out – but I think this is madness personally – and in the name of stopping a few bad individuals – penalizes the entire country and will destroy an industry that employs thousands.

Andrew

*From:* kictanet [mailto:kictanet-bounces+andrew.alston= [email protected]] *On Behalf Of *Liz Wanjiru via kictanet *Sent:* 04 December 2017 06:43 *To:* Andrew Alston <[email protected]> *Cc:* Liz Wanjiru <[email protected]> *Subject:* Re: [kictanet] ict practitioners bill is back

Hi,

While trying to push such laws shouldn't they be looking at credentialing people without formal ICT schooling but have the experience, knowledge and skills to back them? These people have talent and positively contribute in the industry. Some countries have learning institutions credentialing professionals based on their body of work and so long as they can demonstrate this they are awarded the degrees or other government approved certifications. Here is an example of such

Link <http://www.ara.ac.nz/study-options/centre-for-assessment-of-prior-learning-capl>

Liz

On Mon, Dec 4, 2017 at 3:18 PM, Ahmed Mohamed Maawy via kictanet < [email protected]> wrote:

I wonder how some of the ground breaking technology companies - such as for instance Google Kenya, can operate if this bill is passed.

On Sun, Dec 3, 2017 at 4:57 PM, Watila Alex via kictanet < [email protected]> wrote:

EricKigada: Kenya’s controversial ICT Practitioners Bill 2016 to be tabled in parliament again

techmoran.com/kenyas-controv…

https://twitter.com/EricKigada/status/937309893954031616

Sent from Yahoo Mail on Android <https://overview.mail.yahoo.com/mobile/?.src=Android>

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Kind Regards

Liz Wanjiru

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KICTANetiquette : Adhere to the same standards of acceptable behaviors online that you follow in real life: respect people's times and bandwidth, share knowledge, don't flame or abuse or personalize, respect privacy, do not spam, do not market your wares or qualifications.

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The Kenya ICT Action Network (KICTANet) is a multi-stakeholder platform for people and institutions interested and involved in ICT policy and regulation. The network aims to act as a catalyst for reform in the ICT sector in support of the national aim of ICT enabled growth and development.

KICTANetiquette : Adhere to the same standards of acceptable behaviors online that you follow in real life: respect people's times and bandwidth, share knowledge, don't flame or abuse or personalize, respect privacy, do not spam, do not market your wares or qualifications.

-- *Ahmed Maawy* Head of Corporate Products - Al Jazeera Media Network Skype: ultimateprogramer

The country is currently having ict and cyber security policies as separate documents. It's good the holders be separated also. Most counties done even have information security department On Dec 17, 2017 3:23 PM, "S.M. Muraya via kictanet" < [email protected]> wrote:

Whatever the bill will be called in the end, it needs to

(i) Create CIO roles in counties and state corporations which cannot be ignored (without penalties) by their CEO's.

The CEO of the ICTA will be the State CIO?

The Federal Chief Information Officer of the United States, also known as the United States Chief Information Officer, is the administrator of the Office of Electronic Government, which in turn is part of the Office of Management and Budget. The position is appointed by the President and does not require Senate confirmation.

(ii) Specifically address IT acquisition/management

https://www.techrepublic.com/article/trump-signs-bill-to- modernize-government-it-and-cybersecurity/

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Federal_Information_ Technology_Acquisition_Reform_Act The *Federal Information Technology Acquisition Reform Act* made changes to the ways the U.S. federal government buys and manages computer technology.[1] <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Federal_Information_Technology_Acquisition_Reform_Act#cite_note-1232sum-1> It became law as a part of the National Defense Authorization Act for Fiscal Year 2015 <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/National_Defense_Authorization_Act_for_Fiscal_Year_2015> (Title VIII, Subtitle D, H.R. 3979 <https://www.congress.gov/bill/113th-congress/house-bill/3979>.

(iii) Require funding (at least KES 50 mln per annum, per county + KES 25 mln per annum, for each state agency) to be allocated to develop and manage portals, CRMs, etc to provide/create a feedback loop on the performance (or misses) of public officials, suppliers, contractors in *all* counties and state corporations, agencies, projects.

Last week, the TI-Kenya, EACC hosted anti corruption conference held at AACC (off Waiyaki Way) noted there is no easy way to report corruption (wicked officials extorting + mistreating citizens and residents) in counties and state corporations.

On Sun, Dec 17, 2017 at 5:25 AM, Joseph Mucheru via kictanet < [email protected]> wrote:

...

The absence of dialogue and relying on media reports is a recipe for discord. The current views, sentiments and concerns raised in the group are justified only because there is no dialogue. Kicktanet is part of KEPSA <https://kepsa.or.ke> who we are in constant dialogue even on this topic. Going forward, the need to dialogue through the agreed channels is key;

So let me try and give a position on where we are;

- I did state that we will need a Practitioners Bill and even clarified to media it would not be the current one - There is currently NO Bill in parliament. The last one lapsed and we would need to start afresh - The bill identified a need/gap in our sector that requires some action, especially since ICT is at the heart of the Governments development agenda - The Industry was opposed with the method/solutions proposed by the Bill but not the fact there is a gap - Other Industries have self regulating bodies and if our sector is to grow, we need to get organised and set this up. Why should government have to do it? - We are exporting our skills regionally and internationally and a need to standardise and demonstrate our skills is key. This is because we are not working in isolation, we are competing with other countries and Kenya must be able to demonstrate consistent and quality skills -- today we are blacklisted on various online jobs platforms because of a few bad apples, while we know we have some of the best talents, we are also losing tenders and business because we have not conformed to specific international standards and so the rating of our products/services falls short. (KBS is working on the standards)

And for the accusations...

- It was a private members bill and not sponsored by Government (We opposed it in its current form - you know that, otherwise google it). - Responding to questions from the sector does not amount to a "roadside decision", considering the level of engagement we have had on this issue - The Government is there to serve the people of Kenya and not just the sector in isolation - Skills Rating systems used by platforms such as Kuhastle.com, upwork.com., cloudfactory.com, monster.com..etc are examples of ways people are able to build and demonstrate skills both technical and otherwise - I have had engagements on this topic with KEPSA (ICT Sector Committee <https://kepsa.or.ke/sector-comittees/>) - Mike Macharia being the Chair - I saw in social media many of you opposed to ICTAK <http://www.ictak.or.ke/> being enjoined in the supreme court presidential petition, but none came out (Kicktanet included) to support/represent the sector, which was at the heart of the dispute. At the very least ICTAK <http://www.ictak.or.ke/> was willing to come forward. - Similar to the Law Society, The Supreme Court should have chosen the ICT experts from the ICT Industry body?

My advice would be for the sector to take the lead and suggest how this need/gap of* "SKILLS RATING" standards etc.. *can be addressed. We are on the same side. If industry does not take the lead, then Government will step in. As it stands, industry has various bodies and you need to agree on how to engage amongst yourselves. We are going to be successful and so let us push in the same direction.

Finally, today the official engagement between government and the ICT sector is through KEPSA <https://kepsa.or.ke/> . (KICTAnet, TESPOK, KITOS etc.. are members and even when we engaged on the ICT Practitioners bill, the sector was represented by KEPSA, when we met MPs).

The last discussion on Tuesday 14th December 2017 between KEPSA and the Ministry covered the following topics;

1. ICT Policy 2. Kick-off Industry meetings 3. Bills / Opinions - ICT Practitioners Bill 4. PDTP <http://icta.go.ke/digitalent/> + Ajira Digital <http://ajiradigital.go.ke/> (Jobs) 5. Flagship Projects 6. Constituency Development Hubs <http://www.ict.go.ke/constituency-to-get-an-innovation-hub/> 7. ICTA Engagement with Counties 8. Enterprise Kenya 9. Blockchain

Thank you!

On Sun, Dec 17, 2017 at 3:07 AM, Andrew Alston via kictanet < [email protected]> wrote:

...

Hi All,

So – having seen an article in the standardmedia in which elements of what I stated below were quoted – and to which there seem to have been responses – I now need to comment further:

(Article found at: https://www.standardmedia.co.k e/business/article/2001263257/techies-oppose-move-to-introdu ce-new-ict-watchdog)

*Mucheru, however, denies that the Bill will lock out experts without formal training insisting the reverse will be the case. “This Bill will benefit the people who have been working in technical capacity for years but have not acquired certificates,” he explained. “If they can demonstrate their proficiency to the Institute then they can get certified and widen the scope of jobs they can bid or apply for.” *

So – I have a question – What will be the method of demonstrating proficiency and how will this be tested – and what will it cost – and how long will it take.

Now – let me break the questions down a bit

1. The ICT field is vast – are you going to test proficiency in programming? In networking? In security? In database administration? In desktop support? In Linux? Freebsd? Microsoft? Solaris? AIX? What is the test going to be – and who is going to administer these tests 2. What makes an industry body more capable of testing proficiency than Cisco, Juniper, Huawei or any of the other vendors – the bill does * *NOT** cater for industry standard certification outside of formal education – it simply is not in there – and if you are not going to accept these and are going to have this industry body determine proficiency – we need to know how this will be done and how the people testing proficiency will be qualified to do it – and in what fields they are qualified to test proficiency. 3. What is the cost of this testing of proficiency – does an individual who has certified as a CCIE at the cost of thousands – and in some cases tens of thousands – of dollars suddenly need to pay more to demonstrate something that he has clearly already demonstrated? Who will it be paid for? How will the money be utilized? Will this be included in the license fee for the first year? Or will this suddenly cost extra so someone can make some money? 4. How does does it take to “demonstrate proficiency” – and if I bring in someone from outside to train my staff in a new field of technology – is he going to be made to sit some kind of exam? Or pay some kind of fee before he can upskill Kenyans? Because – lets be real – that is not going to happen – it will be the death of bringing in people to impart knowledge.

Let me be blunt – more than half the authors of the RFC’s within the IETF would not qualify under the bill as it stands – this means they would have to “demonstrate” their proficiency – despite the fact that they have their names on Internet standards – and if people expect these individuals to sit exams or prove to people that they know what they are doing – despite the knowledge having been clearly demonstrated (which is why they are being flown in in the first place, to train Kenyans in skills that are not available in the country so that those Kenyans can continue to further upskill and lift up the industry) – you can kiss goodbye to having cutting edge people coming into this country – it simply won’t happen – and it will be Kenya that loses out.

Then to comment on this:

*Mucheru adds that the Government has held several engagements with practitioners in the sector on the provisions of the Bill. *

Correct – there was massive engagement – and the bill was largely defeated after the industry said it was broken – after people on this list said it was broken – after it was slammed left right and centre – so yes – there was engagement – but the article is wrong about the fact that the engagement agreed that this bill in its current form was a good idea or represented the correct solution.

*“There was consensus that we need to establish a professional body to regulate the industry,” he said. *

I have no problem with the concept of a professional body – I have major problems with forcing a situation where people who have potentially decades of experience have to suddenly “prove” their skills via some entirely undefined means at some undefined cost to a bunch of people who may or may not have anywhere close to the experience or knowledge of the person being tested. If we said that we had a professional body that people could register to – and they needed to be registered – and in the event of *substantiated* complaints the individual could be deregistered and blacklisted – I would have no problem. It is the arbitrary and unsubstantiated and undefined criteria for registration that I take exception to – and that I believe could result in expensive legal challenges.

Please – do not get me wrong – I do not begrudge anyone who has a desire to genuinely root out the bad apples and clean up the industry and remove scam artists and fraudsters. I think that is a noble and pure objective that should be pursued. I however dispute the fact that this bill is the right way to go about it – and I dispute the fact that university degrees have anything to do with competence in this industry – particularly with the rate that technology evolves – because an individual doing a 3 year degree who is learning specific technologies in his first year – by the time he graduates – those technologies are history – and when he walks into the industry – he is having to self study it all again ANYWAY. Let me give you examples of technologies that did not exist a year ago in any real form:

1. Segment routing – the foundation of network routing going forward and the replacement to MPLS – how do I know this – because I’ve had my hands in crafting the specifications and doing a lot of the beta testing for it – so who is going to test proficiency here – it changes the game – and the only people qualified to teach it – or gauge the proficiency in it – do not themselves qualify under this bill to be registered. 2. Network telemetry processing – first introduced in limited form in Q3 2015 – and only now becoming main stream – but within a year of it being main stream – it will replace standard network monitoring entirely – who is going to teach that with a university degree? 3. Which university degree teaches BGP? BGP-LU? ISIS? Network segmentation? IPv6 addressing?

The list is endless – these are things that cannot be learnt through a degree – they are learnt through industry standard certification or self-skilling by reading documentation.

So, Mr Mucheru – please – do not read me wrong – I have tremendous respect for the regulator in this country – and it is testament to how well the Kenyan industry and the regulatory environment here works that today – Kenya has higher average mobile broadband speeds than either the US or South Africa or a lot of other places. It is testament to the regulatory environment here that we have the high-speed networks we do – and that the pricing is as low as it is – because the industry is competitive and open and innovative. This list of things the regulator has gotten right in this country is long - I do however plead with you, the bill as it stands would break the industry that all of us – yourself – myself – and so many others have worked so hard to build. I am NOT against a professional body – I am NOT against formalizing things – but I beg you – do not walk down the road of this current bill in its current form – it will be death to this industry in this country.

Andrew Alston

*From: *Andrew Alston <[email protected]> *Date: *Monday, 4 December 2017 at 01:24 *To: *KICTAnet ICT Policy Discussions <[email protected]> *Cc: *Liz Wanjiru <[email protected]> *Subject: *RE: [kictanet] ict practitioners bill is back

I have to say – personally I cannot think of a worse piece of legislation that I have seen in recent history.

Let us look at the net effects of this and the problems with it:

1. Large companies bring in consultants or external people where necessary to supplement capacity, to train and upskill Kenyan staff etc, while those guys are here, even for a week or two, they are compensated, and my reading of this bill is – this would be illegal – because you’d have to get every consultant you bring in accredited and licensed first – which is impractical in the extreme 2. The list of highly skilled people with 20+ years experience who would not qualify for accreditation under this bill is extensive, globally and within Kenya – this bill completely stops any form of knowledge transfer from those individuals and in fact will force a situation where Kenyan’s who wish to learn from some of the biggest names in the industry would be forced to go internationally to get that knowledge, rather than bringing those people in to train locally 3. It forces Kenyans who have spent years learning and honing their skills without university qualifications out of work and could well result in large scale job losses looking at the number of highly skilled individuals I know of who are working without qualifications 4. It prevents private companies from making what are normal business decisions – who they hire and who they pay. That is problematic in the extreme – in any normal situation if a private company hires staff that don’t perform – those staff either get fired or the market rejects the company and the company disappears – standard market dynamics – in this case – if a company finds extremely talented people they may be forced into a position where they have to hire less skilled people because someone can’t meet some accreditation requirement. 5. The bill has no recognition of prior experience – no recognition of those who have published papers and are world recognized experts – does not specify what the “recognized” universities are – does not take into account industry standard certification (CISSP/CCNA/CCIE/CCDP/JNCIE/JNCIP/JNCIA, the list is endless) 6. May well end up in the constitutional court when it deprives a host of people who have spent their lives working in this industry and have no other options for a career of the ability to earn a living

The bill relies on the belief that a university qualification some how makes you better than those without – it’s reasoning that has been disproved globally for years and years and years – and it flies in the face of the global industry and the way the ICT industry has worked since the day it began. It is damaging to the industry in Kenya – it is damaging to the growth prospects of the economy as a result – it is damaging to the people of Kenya – and it will destroy the position that Kenya is in as one of the leaders of the ICT industry on the continent (Kenya already has the highest average broadband speeds on the continent and significantly better ICT infrastructure than you will find even in South Africa – it is doing so well – why break a system that is proving functional?)

I really hope this does not pass – and if it does – will be curious to see the court challenges and how they play out – but I think this is madness personally – and in the name of stopping a few bad individuals – penalizes the entire country and will destroy an industry that employs thousands.

Andrew

*From:* kictanet [mailto:kictanet-bounces+andrew.alston= [email protected]] *On Behalf Of *Liz Wanjiru via kictanet *Sent:* 04 December 2017 06:43 *To:* Andrew Alston <[email protected]> *Cc:* Liz Wanjiru <[email protected]> *Subject:* Re: [kictanet] ict practitioners bill is back

Hi,

While trying to push such laws shouldn't they be looking at credentialing people without formal ICT schooling but have the experience, knowledge and skills to back them? These people have talent and positively contribute in the industry. Some countries have learning institutions credentialing professionals based on their body of work and so long as they can demonstrate this they are awarded the degrees or other government approved certifications. Here is an example of such

Link <http://www.ara.ac.nz/study-options/centre-for-assessment-of-prior-learning-capl>

Liz

On Mon, Dec 4, 2017 at 3:18 PM, Ahmed Mohamed Maawy via kictanet < [email protected]> wrote:

I wonder how some of the ground breaking technology companies - such as for instance Google Kenya, can operate if this bill is passed.

On Sun, Dec 3, 2017 at 4:57 PM, Watila Alex via kictanet < [email protected]> wrote:

EricKigada: Kenya’s controversial ICT Practitioners Bill 2016 to be tabled in parliament again

techmoran.com/kenyas-controv…

https://twitter.com/EricKigada/status/937309893954031616

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The Kenya ICT Action Network (KICTANet) is a multi-stakeholder platform for people and institutions interested and involved in ICT policy and regulation. The network aims to act as a catalyst for reform in the ICT sector in support of the national aim of ICT enabled growth and development.

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--

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The Kenya ICT Action Network (KICTANet) is a multi-stakeholder platform for people and institutions interested and involved in ICT policy and regulation. The network aims to act as a catalyst for reform in the ICT sector in support of the national aim of ICT enabled growth and development.

KICTANetiquette : Adhere to the same standards of acceptable behaviors online that you follow in real life: respect people's times and bandwidth, share knowledge, don't flame or abuse or personalize, respect privacy, do not spam, do not market your wares or qualifications.

--

Kind Regards

Liz Wanjiru

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The Kenya ICT Action Network (KICTANet) is a multi-stakeholder platform for people and institutions interested and involved in ICT policy and regulation. The network aims to act as a catalyst for reform in the ICT sector in support of the national aim of ICT enabled growth and development.

KICTANetiquette : Adhere to the same standards of acceptable behaviors online that you follow in real life: respect people's times and bandwidth, share knowledge, don't flame or abuse or personalize, respect privacy, do not spam, do not market your wares or qualifications.

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The Kenya ICT Action Network (KICTANet) is a multi-stakeholder platform for people and institutions interested and involved in ICT policy and regulation. The network aims to act as a catalyst for reform in the ICT sector in support of the national aim of ICT enabled growth and development.

KICTANetiquette : Adhere to the same standards of acceptable behaviors online that you follow in real life: respect people's times and bandwidth, share knowledge, don't flame or abuse or personalize, respect privacy, do not spam, do not market your wares or qualifications.

-- SMM

*"Better a patient person than a warrior, one with self-control than one who takes a city." Prov 16:32*

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The Kenya ICT Action Network (KICTANet) is a multi-stakeholder platform for people and institutions interested and involved in ICT policy and regulation. The network aims to act as a catalyst for reform in the ICT sector in support of the national aim of ICT enabled growth and development.

KICTANetiquette : Adhere to the same standards of acceptable behaviors online that you follow in real life: respect people's times and bandwidth, share knowledge, don't flame or abuse or personalize, respect privacy, do not spam, do not market your wares or qualifications.

Let me add that if there is any incompetence within our ICT folk then that impacts negatively on all of us not just us the people being governed. My take on this issue: 1. Policy is not meant to create barriers for entry for competence skilled people. All over the world there are plenty of examples of individuals who have impacted the technology space without finishing professional certification courses. We use their products to even write emails like these ones that we are writing right now, and write the proposed bills themselves. We all have to agree on one issue, if it were to come to a point where we would stick to the letter and even implement these policies to encompass all the technology that we use, we would find it even impossible to write the proposed bills we are tabling in parliament in the first place. 2. To add to this, to do justice to such a bill it means also critically analysing all of the things we use on a daily basis. And I would be pretty sure we may not even be using any laptop, tablet, or mobile device if we follow the bill to the letter. 3. Our current talent generation pipelines won't help solve this problem. This is in-fact the bigger crisis to solve. I am sure we are not addressing standardization of curricula or what facilities our institutions should have (or even investing in those facilities). If we implement these policies, what will we do to solve the pipeline? Which is the very reason competence is lacking in the first place. 4. Therefore, policy should therefore address "enabling competence". I think the proposed draft from Kictanet addressed this. Enabling competence goes into creating policies to allow us to update our curricula, make sure the curricula comply to set standards, capacity build individuals to adopt best practices, incubate innovation, and therefore "create opportunity" channels for individuals to thrive, instead of limit. I also think there is massive revenue generation capacity from capacity building. Kenyans can invest their hard earned cash, without complaints, to get their skills and competences upgraded. On Mon, Dec 4, 2017 at 8:20 AM, Watila Alex via kictanet < [email protected]> wrote:

Personally i do not like it.

I see it as someone trying to generate a cash cow without adding value.

Regards,

Alex

On Monday, December 4, 2017, 7:25:55 AM GMT+3, S.M. Muraya < [email protected]> wrote:

Alex,

What do you think about the bill?

Also, interesting comments here on a nation (with leadership) showing interest in Kenya

http://pubdocs.worldbank.org/en/868791452529898941/WDR16- BP-ICT-Sector-Innovation-Israel-Getz.pdf

On Sun, Dec 3, 2017 at 4:57 PM, Watila Alex via kictanet < [email protected]> wrote:

EricKigada: Kenya’s controversial ICT Practitioners Bill 2016 to be tabled in parliament againtechmoran.com/kenyas-controv…https://twitter.com/ EricKigada/status/ 937309893954031616 <https://twitter.com/EricKigada/status/937309893954031616>

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The Kenya ICT Action Network (KICTANet) is a multi-stakeholder platform for people and institutions interested and involved in ICT policy and regulation. The network aims to act as a catalyst for reform in the ICT sector in support of the national aim of ICT enabled growth and development.

KICTANetiquette : Adhere to the same standards of acceptable behaviors online that you follow in real life: respect people's times and bandwidth, share knowledge, don't flame or abuse or personalize, respect privacy, do not spam, do not market your wares or qualifications.

-- SMM

*"Better a patient person than a warrior, one with self-control than one who takes a city." Prov 16:32*

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The Kenya ICT Action Network (KICTANet) is a multi-stakeholder platform for people and institutions interested and involved in ICT policy and regulation. The network aims to act as a catalyst for reform in the ICT sector in support of the national aim of ICT enabled growth and development.

KICTANetiquette : Adhere to the same standards of acceptable behaviors online that you follow in real life: respect people's times and bandwidth, share knowledge, don't flame or abuse or personalize, respect privacy, do not spam, do not market your wares or qualifications.

-- *Ahmed Maawy* Head of Corporate Products - Al Jazeera Media Network Skype: ultimateprogramer

One of the most beautiful thing about code, has been the fact that anyone, a janitor, a driver, a young kid, a nurse, watchman, anyone, can, if they love it badly enough, grab a set of books and tutorials, and teach themselves and create something. If it doesn't work, it doesn't work, but when it does, it changes their lives, and maybe, adds value to the target market/environment. Please don't take that away, in a quest for fulfilling the desire to control, once upon a time, to be an innovator you needed the patronage of kings, may we not be taken back there, anyway, even if, its tried, it wouldn't work, if someone has all resources they need to learn something, they will do it, On Mon, Dec 18, 2017 at 5:58 PM, Ngigi Waithaka via kictanet < [email protected]> wrote:

My take,

Some things are just ridiculous..

You have a HR Administrator, A Programmer, Office Administrator, an IP Lawyer, a sweeper, a Cyber Security expert all five working for: a)A banks IT department b) An insurance firms IT department c) A manufacturing firm IT department d) An IT consulting business e)A software engineering firm

Give me one set of laws regulating them?

You regulate individuals in *professions* not in an industry. Thats why in a bank, the HR Administrator gets regulated by HR association etc, Lawyer gets regulated by ISK, the Programmer (based on whatever courses he's taken and/or experience etc) by their respective bodies and/or experience etc

In an industry, you regulate final products and/or final services delivered!

Now, what are some of the professions we have in the software industry? 1. Programmers / developers 2. System Administrators 3. Database Administrators 4. Enterprise Architects 5. UX Designers

Now, try making a common regulation for those 5 out of a possible hundreds...

Finally, for those us in software, you will agree its more art at some point than science, so how do you regulate art?

Do you tell Picasso he can't paint because he wasn't certified as an painter? Do you tell Franco he can't sing because he wasn't certified as a singer? Do you tell a young Bill Gates he can't write software because he wasn't certified in computer science?

Regards

On Sun, Dec 3, 2017 at 4:57 PM, Watila Alex via kictanet < [email protected]> wrote:

...

EricKigada: Kenya’s controversial ICT Practitioners Bill 2016 to be tabled in parliament againtechmoran.com/kenyas-controv…https://twitter.com/EricKigada/status/937309893954031616

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KICTANetiquette : Adhere to the same standards of acceptable behaviors online that you follow in real life: respect people's times and bandwidth, share knowledge, don't flame or abuse or personalize, respect privacy, do not spam, do not market your wares or qualifications.

-- *Regards,*

*Wait**haka Ngigi* Chief Executive Officer | Alliance Technologies | MCK Nairobi Synod Building T +254 20 525 0750 |Office Mobile: +254 716 201061 <+254%20716%20201061> | M +254 737 811 000 www.at.co.ke

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The Kenya ICT Action Network (KICTANet) is a multi-stakeholder platform for people and institutions interested and involved in ICT policy and regulation. The network aims to act as a catalyst for reform in the ICT sector in support of the national aim of ICT enabled growth and development.

KICTANetiquette : Adhere to the same standards of acceptable behaviors online that you follow in real life: respect people's times and bandwidth, share knowledge, don't flame or abuse or personalize, respect privacy, do not spam, do not market your wares or qualifications.

-- Anyega M Jefferson [email protected] 0703824326 Start where you are,use what you have and do what you can.

Related discussions threads online: - https://softwareengineering.stackexchange.com/questions/133768/regulation-of... [2012] - https://www.quora.com/Should-software-engineering-require-professional-certi... [2016] -> worth reading. On Mon, Dec 18, 2017 at 6:20 PM, Timothy- Coach- Oriedo via kictanet < [email protected]> wrote:

Thank you Ngigi for breaking it down so realistically.

As a Data Scientist i was dumbfounded on the call to regulate ICT practioneers coz its even more complex Data Science where the profession entry point is multi faceted ranging from liberal arts like Anthropologists, Evolutionary Psychologists, Philosophers, Mathematics to Tech like Developers, Network and software engineers etcetra....

The value of a technology is realised at the confluence of its usage. Hence the most lasting, impacful technology careers will be those that shape the application of technology to the last mile consumption of it... any attempt to regulate it will be rendered irrelevant by consumers of the technology who reward for mediocrity and superiority as they deem fit.

Regards

Tim

On 18 Dec 2017 18:00, "Ngigi Waithaka via kictanet" < [email protected]> wrote:

...

My take,

Some things are just ridiculous..

You have a HR Administrator, A Programmer, Office Administrator, an IP Lawyer, a sweeper, a Cyber Security expert all five working for: a)A banks IT department b) An insurance firms IT department c) A manufacturing firm IT department d) An IT consulting business e)A software engineering firm

Give me one set of laws regulating them?

You regulate individuals in *professions* not in an industry. Thats why in a bank, the HR Administrator gets regulated by HR association etc, Lawyer gets regulated by ISK, the Programmer (based on whatever courses he's taken and/or experience etc) by their respective bodies and/or experience etc

In an industry, you regulate final products and/or final services delivered!

Now, what are some of the professions we have in the software industry? 1. Programmers / developers 2. System Administrators 3. Database Administrators 4. Enterprise Architects 5. UX Designers

Now, try making a common regulation for those 5 out of a possible hundreds...

Finally, for those us in software, you will agree its more art at some point than science, so how do you regulate art?

Do you tell Picasso he can't paint because he wasn't certified as an painter? Do you tell Franco he can't sing because he wasn't certified as a singer? Do you tell a young Bill Gates he can't write software because he wasn't certified in computer science?

Regards

On Sun, Dec 3, 2017 at 4:57 PM, Watila Alex via kictanet < [email protected]> wrote:

...

EricKigada: Kenya’s controversial ICT Practitioners Bill 2016 to be tabled in parliament againtechmoran.com/kenyas-controv…https://twitter.com/EricKigada/status/937309893954031616

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KICTANetiquette : Adhere to the same standards of acceptable behaviors online that you follow in real life: respect people's times and bandwidth, share knowledge, don't flame or abuse or personalize, respect privacy, do not spam, do not market your wares or qualifications.

-- *Regards,*

*Wait**haka Ngigi* Chief Executive Officer | Alliance Technologies | MCK Nairobi Synod Building T +254 20 525 0750 |Office Mobile: +254 716 201061 | M +254 737 811 000 www.at.co.ke

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The Kenya ICT Action Network (KICTANet) is a multi-stakeholder platform for people and institutions interested and involved in ICT policy and regulation. The network aims to act as a catalyst for reform in the ICT sector in support of the national aim of ICT enabled growth and development.

KICTANetiquette : Adhere to the same standards of acceptable behaviors online that you follow in real life: respect people's times and bandwidth, share knowledge, don't flame or abuse or personalize, respect privacy, do not spam, do not market your wares or qualifications.

-- Josiah Mugambi

Hello Rosemary, I will close off my submissions for the day by responding to your kind remarks. For my part I want a mechanism that will help my skills and experience be recognizable in a manner that removes the restrictions that are currently in place for me to engage in any significant work with the government and any corporation that dictates that the only relevant document to prove my proficiency is a University degree. ​As for those who perpetrate mischief., it is difficult if not impossible to improve the capacity of our courts to be able to handle the possible thousands of hi-tech related crime. Experts would always have to be brought it and those cases would take months if not years to go through the system. This institute would offer a faster means of mediation. If there is any mischief or delay by this body, then those particular appeals would certainly be acceptable to the Judiciary. Or you can still bypass them and go to the courts. They are supreme. Regards, Kevin On 18 December 2017 at 18:52, Rosemary Koech-Kimwatu via kictanet < [email protected]> wrote:

Dear Listers,

The rationale for the proposed law in my opinion fails both legal and practical tests and I will pick up from where my learned colleague Gertrude left off,

1. There is no serious mischief that can be clearly identified and the reasons given so far are adequately catered for by exiting laws and proposed laws like the Computer and Cybercrimes Bill of 2017. The cure to the mischief contemplated requires the basic understanding tha crime and other social conflicts have not changed but simply moved to tech platforms:-

If one fails to deliver on a contract ,the courts are an open avenue to solve the dispute maybe what we need is improved capacity for the bar and the bench to handle the tech matters, fraud is fraud whether perpetrated on paper or a computer, theft is still theft whether physical or virtual stealing.

2. In regards to who is best suited to cure the above mischief, I have explained above that we just need improve the capacity of all stakeholders right from law enforcement to every other professional interacting with ICT systems and as a result of the diversity of ICT is impractical to purport to create an entity that will handle this, tech is multidisciplinary as Tim has explained so the proposed approach makes no sense.

3. The proposed cure will definitely create a myriad of mischiefs and the most obvious is stifling innovation and blocking the indipendent development of talent, the world's leading tech gurus are self taught.

4. It is without a doubt that this proposed cure will have more detrimental side effects than the mischief we intend to cure.

5. Let's build the capacity of all the available institutions as ICT is constantly morphing there is no need to create entities that may be rendered redundant in the blink of an eye.

Kind regards,

On Mon, Dec 18, 2017 at 6:20 PM, Timothy- Coach- Oriedo via kictanet < [email protected]> wrote:

...

Thank you Ngigi for breaking it down so realistically.

As a Data Scientist i was dumbfounded on the call to regulate ICT practioneers coz its even more complex Data Science where the profession entry point is multi faceted ranging from liberal arts like Anthropologists, Evolutionary Psychologists, Philosophers, Mathematics to Tech like Developers, Network and software engineers etcetra....

The value of a technology is realised at the confluence of its usage. Hence the most lasting, impacful technology careers will be those that shape the application of technology to the last mile consumption of it... any attempt to regulate it will be rendered irrelevant by consumers of the technology who reward for mediocrity and superiority as they deem fit.

Regards

Tim

On 18 Dec 2017 18:00, "Ngigi Waithaka via kictanet" < [email protected]> wrote:

...

My take,

Some things are just ridiculous..

You have a HR Administrator, A Programmer, Office Administrator, an IP Lawyer, a sweeper, a Cyber Security expert all five working for: a)A banks IT department b) An insurance firms IT department c) A manufacturing firm IT department d) An IT consulting business e)A software engineering firm

Give me one set of laws regulating them?

You regulate individuals in *professions* not in an industry. Thats why in a bank, the HR Administrator gets regulated by HR association etc, Lawyer gets regulated by ISK, the Programmer (based on whatever courses he's taken and/or experience etc) by their respective bodies and/or experience etc

In an industry, you regulate final products and/or final services delivered!

Now, what are some of the professions we have in the software industry? 1. Programmers / developers 2. System Administrators 3. Database Administrators 4. Enterprise Architects 5. UX Designers

Now, try making a common regulation for those 5 out of a possible hundreds...

Finally, for those us in software, you will agree its more art at some point than science, so how do you regulate art?

Do you tell Picasso he can't paint because he wasn't certified as an painter? Do you tell Franco he can't sing because he wasn't certified as a singer? Do you tell a young Bill Gates he can't write software because he wasn't certified in computer science?

Regards

On Sun, Dec 3, 2017 at 4:57 PM, Watila Alex via kictanet < [email protected]> wrote:

...

EricKigada: Kenya’s controversial ICT Practitioners Bill 2016 to be tabled in parliament againtechmoran.com/kenyas-controv…https://twitter.com/EricKigada/status/937309893954031616

Sent from Yahoo Mail on Android <https://overview.mail.yahoo.com/mobile/?.src=Android>

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The Kenya ICT Action Network (KICTANet) is a multi-stakeholder platform for people and institutions interested and involved in ICT policy and regulation. The network aims to act as a catalyst for reform in the ICT sector in support of the national aim of ICT enabled growth and development.

KICTANetiquette : Adhere to the same standards of acceptable behaviors online that you follow in real life: respect people's times and bandwidth, share knowledge, don't flame or abuse or personalize, respect privacy, do not spam, do not market your wares or qualifications.

-- *Regards,*

*Wait**haka Ngigi* Chief Executive Officer | Alliance Technologies | MCK Nairobi Synod Building T +254 20 525 0750 |Office Mobile: +254 716 201061 | M +254 737 811 000 www.at.co.ke

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KICTANetiquette : Adhere to the same standards of acceptable behaviors online that you follow in real life: respect people's times and bandwidth, share knowledge, don't flame or abuse or personalize, respect privacy, do not spam, do not market your wares or qualifications.

Kevin, Let us separate this into two: 1. Products 2. Services Reviewing products is a lot easier, as you got the final product, can try the trial version and despite whoever has built it, you can then come up with a conclusion of whether its fit for purpose. Now, how do you review Services? You asked how would I tell you are an advanced Network Engineer? I'd ask for your qualifications, certifications, experience, referrals would also shoot you questions around what I need you to do. Now, what you are proposing is short-circuiting that process and pre-qualifying people. Why would you want to repeat what the industry has already done? Cisco, Juniper, Huawei, Nokia, Siemens have each their own certifications of Advanced Network Engineering. Why would you want to duplicate that? Would such an organization even have the skills to interrogate every possible certification in the market? And that is just Networks... Extrapolate that to Software products which are in their thousands (Oracle, SAP, A1, MS, IBM, SAS, Redhat, HP etc) each with its own Certifications and Requirements and you want to pre-qualify people for that as well? Add Software Development, more than 30 possible languages we develop in, each with more than 30 levels of different knowledge levels / permutations and you want to pre-qualify that as well? Unless this is where our projected 1million jobs will come from, I really don't see anyone in Kenya and even globally with such resources and time to undertake such an exercise and one that wouldn't add any value beyond whats currently generally available in the market. Regards On Mon, Dec 18, 2017 at 7:08 PM, Kevin Kamonye <[email protected]> wrote:

Hello Waithaka,

Perhaps let us not judge that the proposed bill by the CS to be a duck before we have even seen or heard from it. Also, the only reason why I am entertaining this bill is that unlike the previous one, is that we are being invited to put forward constructive proposals.

Now, what are some of the professions we have in the software industry?

...

1. Programmers / developers 2. System Administrators 3. Database Administrators 4. Enterprise Architects 5. UX Designers Now, try making a common regulation for those 5 out of a possible hundreds...

​If we are talking about a peer reviewed ​process by committees of technologists from varied backgrounds then establishing whether a person is qualified to undertake the tasks that they claim proficiency in would be a walk in the park.

For instance, if you came to me and claimed to be a network engineer / system admin I would be able to ask you a few pertinent questions that would settle the matter very quickly.

If beyond that you wanted to claim that you are advanced/expert/arch level, then that would be between you and your prospective employer (broadly used to cover contract/consultancy services). You would need to provide them with the relevant certifications from the various vendors.

In lieu of this, it will either be up to you to do some social networking and get the recommendation of a certified person at that level or even better and as happens currently, you will have to be individually interviewed by the client's trusted technologist who would ask you for your portfolio and recommendations from other related work. They could further protect themselves by withholding your payment until you have delivered on their requirements, with the the further option of lodging a complaint against you from this body that will be established.

For new concepts that would be cutting edge, then the current principle remains valid. Patent your idea then work towards demonstrating its usefulness and the proposed applications and a well formed team of technologists will give you the support and approval that you need.

There could also be an appeals mechanism within the proposal where the entire community could be lobbied for support. A Reddit type of system could be used to upvote consensus.

If all fails then take yourself to a jurisdiction/community that gets you and let those that put you down burn in the glare of your success.

AS FOR THOSE SAYING THAT THIS WILL STIFLE NEW TECHNOLOGY. HOW DO YOU EXPECT SOMEONE TO DEVELOP CUTTING EDGE TECH IF THEY CANNOT EVEN DEMONSTRATE BASIC ICT COMPETENCY FROM ANY OF THE MANY FIELDS THAT ALREADY EXIST?!

​You would never be able to code/develop that new thingamajig if you cannot even show the ability to put something reasonable from what exists currently. And remember that we are talking about those who do not have any currently recognizable documentation to support your proficiency (this is my assumption until I can see the final proposed bill).

Regards,

Kevin

On 18 December 2017 at 17:58, Ngigi Waithaka via kictanet < [email protected]> wrote:

...

My take,

Some things are just ridiculous..

You have a HR Administrator, A Programmer, Office Administrator, an IP Lawyer, a sweeper, a Cyber Security expert all five working for: a)A banks IT department b) An insurance firms IT department c) A manufacturing firm IT department d) An IT consulting business e)A software engineering firm

Give me one set of laws regulating them?

You regulate individuals in *professions* not in an industry. Thats why in a bank, the HR Administrator gets regulated by HR association etc, Lawyer gets regulated by ISK, the Programmer (based on whatever courses he's taken and/or experience etc) by their respective bodies and/or experience etc

In an industry, you regulate final products and/or final services delivered!

Now, what are some of the professions we have in the software industry? 1. Programmers / developers 2. System Administrators 3. Database Administrators 4. Enterprise Architects 5. UX Designers

Now, try making a common regulation for those 5 out of a possible hundreds...

Finally, for those us in software, you will agree its more art at some point than science, so how do you regulate art?

Do you tell Picasso he can't paint because he wasn't certified as an painter? Do you tell Franco he can't sing because he wasn't certified as a singer? Do you tell a young Bill Gates he can't write software because he wasn't certified in computer science?

Regards

On Sun, Dec 3, 2017 at 4:57 PM, Watila Alex via kictanet < [email protected]> wrote:

...

EricKigada: Kenya’s controversial ICT Practitioners Bill 2016 to be tabled in parliament againtechmoran.com/kenyas-controv…https://twitter.com/EricKigada/status/937309893954031616

Sent from Yahoo Mail on Android <https://overview.mail.yahoo.com/mobile/?.src=Android>

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KICTANetiquette : Adhere to the same standards of acceptable behaviors online that you follow in real life: respect people's times and bandwidth, share knowledge, don't flame or abuse or personalize, respect privacy, do not spam, do not market your wares or qualifications.

-- *Regards,*

*Wait**haka Ngigi* Chief Executive Officer | Alliance Technologies | MCK Nairobi Synod Building T +254 20 525 0750 |Office Mobile: +254 716 201061 | M +254 737 811 000 www.at.co.ke

_______________________________________________ kictanet mailing list [email protected] https://lists.kictanet.or.ke/mailman/listinfo/kictanet Twitter: http://twitter.com/kictanet Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/KICTANet/

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The Kenya ICT Action Network (KICTANet) is a multi-stakeholder platform for people and institutions interested and involved in ICT policy and regulation. The network aims to act as a catalyst for reform in the ICT sector in support of the national aim of ICT enabled growth and development.

KICTANetiquette : Adhere to the same standards of acceptable behaviors online that you follow in real life: respect people's times and bandwidth, share knowledge, don't flame or abuse or personalize, respect privacy, do not spam, do not market your wares or qualifications.

-- *Regards,* *Wait**haka Ngigi* Chief Executive Officer | Alliance Technologies | MCK Nairobi Synod Building T +254 20 525 0750 |Office Mobile: +254 716 201061 | M +254 737 811 000 www.at.co.ke

Kevin Chief, On a light note, You went to MIT or Stanford by any chance? Because your tone, wow. On Dec 19, 2017 10:42 AM, "Kevin Kamonye via kictanet" < [email protected]> wrote:

Good Morning Waithaka,

As I respond, I will repeat that we need to wait to see the actual bill that the CS will propose. Let us at least give him the level of good faith and trust that he has earned through his record, most of which is in the public domain for everyone to see.

Secondly, yes I am very cautious of government regulation. Maybe I can trust CS Mucheru and his team, but I do not know who will be in-charge tomorrow. If this regulation will have to happen, and I can tell you that if the CS says it is going to happen just start preparing yourself for the qualification interview, then I am willing to engage the ministry in a constructive manner while the window to do so is still open. Let us come up with the best possible balance that serves all.

Now, what you are proposing is short-circuiting that process and

...

pre-qualifying people. Why would you want to repeat what the industry has already done? Cisco, Juniper, Huawei, Nokia, Siemens have each their own certifications of Advanced Network Engineering. Why would you want to duplicate that? Would such an organization even have the skills to interrogate every possible certification in the market?

​I am not proposing any such thing. First of all who is Cisco, Juniper, Huawei? These are vendors who in this context provide training and certification for their specific products. This is good. Take these certifications to the institute, answer a few relevant questions and earn yet another certificate of approval.

On the other hand, are the exams of these vendors strictly administered in such a manner that you would have complete faith in anybody​ holding any of their certifications? Not really unless you are talking about someone who has sat for their lab examinations. As for these other levels, google "exam dumps, actual tests, brain dumps" to have an idea of what I am talking about. I know of people whose CVs and LinkedIN profiles have certifications that exhaust the entire alphabet yet they can deliver very little.

Aside from that, what if I cannot afford these foreign certifications or do not want to undertake them for one reason or the other. Who says we cannot build our own mechanism of certifying ourselves and we do it so well such that all other Africans will aspire to our standards. Or maybe even the whole world.

If you are not up to the challenge of the work that would need to be put in, then let others try to do so. I am so fired up about this one to the point that if for one reason or the other the Ministry decides to cancel this bill, I will lobby in any way that I can to compel them to deliver on this institute.

Regards,

Kevin

On 19 December 2017 at 02:55, Ngigi Waithaka <[email protected]> wrote:

...

Kevin,

Let us separate this into two: 1. Products 2. Services

Reviewing products is a lot easier, as you got the final product, can try the trial version and despite whoever has built it, you can then come up with a conclusion of whether its fit for purpose.

Now, how do you review Services? You asked how would I tell you are an advanced Network Engineer? I'd ask for your qualifications, certifications, experience, referrals would also shoot you questions around what I need you to do.

Now, what you are proposing is short-circuiting that process and pre-qualifying people. Why would you want to repeat what the industry has already done? Cisco, Juniper, Huawei, Nokia, Siemens have each their own certifications of Advanced Network Engineering. Why would you want to duplicate that? Would such an organization even have the skills to interrogate every possible certification in the market?

And that is just Networks... Extrapolate that to Software products which are in their thousands (Oracle, SAP, A1, MS, IBM, SAS, Redhat, HP etc) each with its own Certifications and Requirements and you want to pre-qualify people for that as well?

Add Software Development, more than 30 possible languages we develop in, each with more than 30 levels of different knowledge levels / permutations and you want to pre-qualify that as well?

Unless this is where our projected 1million jobs will come from, I really don't see anyone in Kenya and even globally with such resources and time to undertake such an exercise and one that wouldn't add any value beyond whats currently generally available in the market.

Regards

On Mon, Dec 18, 2017 at 7:08 PM, Kevin Kamonye <[email protected]> wrote:

...

Hello Waithaka,

Perhaps let us not judge that the proposed bill by the CS to be a duck before we have even seen or heard from it. Also, the only reason why I am entertaining this bill is that unlike the previous one, is that we are being invited to put forward constructive proposals.

Now, what are some of the professions we have in the software industry?

...

1. Programmers / developers 2. System Administrators 3. Database Administrators 4. Enterprise Architects 5. UX Designers Now, try making a common regulation for those 5 out of a possible hundreds...

​If we are talking about a peer reviewed ​process by committees of technologists from varied backgrounds then establishing whether a person is qualified to undertake the tasks that they claim proficiency in would be a walk in the park.

For instance, if you came to me and claimed to be a network engineer / system admin I would be able to ask you a few pertinent questions that would settle the matter very quickly.

If beyond that you wanted to claim that you are advanced/expert/arch level, then that would be between you and your prospective employer (broadly used to cover contract/consultancy services). You would need to provide them with the relevant certifications from the various vendors.

In lieu of this, it will either be up to you to do some social networking and get the recommendation of a certified person at that level or even better and as happens currently, you will have to be individually interviewed by the client's trusted technologist who would ask you for your portfolio and recommendations from other related work. They could further protect themselves by withholding your payment until you have delivered on their requirements, with the the further option of lodging a complaint against you from this body that will be established.

For new concepts that would be cutting edge, then the current principle remains valid. Patent your idea then work towards demonstrating its usefulness and the proposed applications and a well formed team of technologists will give you the support and approval that you need.

There could also be an appeals mechanism within the proposal where the entire community could be lobbied for support. A Reddit type of system could be used to upvote consensus.

If all fails then take yourself to a jurisdiction/community that gets you and let those that put you down burn in the glare of your success.

AS FOR THOSE SAYING THAT THIS WILL STIFLE NEW TECHNOLOGY. HOW DO YOU EXPECT SOMEONE TO DEVELOP CUTTING EDGE TECH IF THEY CANNOT EVEN DEMONSTRATE BASIC ICT COMPETENCY FROM ANY OF THE MANY FIELDS THAT ALREADY EXIST?!

​You would never be able to code/develop that new thingamajig if you cannot even show the ability to put something reasonable from what exists currently. And remember that we are talking about those who do not have any currently recognizable documentation to support your proficiency (this is my assumption until I can see the final proposed bill).

Regards,

Kevin

On 18 December 2017 at 17:58, Ngigi Waithaka via kictanet < [email protected]> wrote:

...

My take,

Some things are just ridiculous..

You have a HR Administrator, A Programmer, Office Administrator, an IP Lawyer, a sweeper, a Cyber Security expert all five working for: a)A banks IT department b) An insurance firms IT department c) A manufacturing firm IT department d) An IT consulting business e)A software engineering firm

Give me one set of laws regulating them?

You regulate individuals in *professions* not in an industry. Thats why in a bank, the HR Administrator gets regulated by HR association etc, Lawyer gets regulated by ISK, the Programmer (based on whatever courses he's taken and/or experience etc) by their respective bodies and/or experience etc

In an industry, you regulate final products and/or final services delivered!

Now, what are some of the professions we have in the software industry? 1. Programmers / developers 2. System Administrators 3. Database Administrators 4. Enterprise Architects 5. UX Designers

Now, try making a common regulation for those 5 out of a possible hundreds...

Finally, for those us in software, you will agree its more art at some point than science, so how do you regulate art?

Do you tell Picasso he can't paint because he wasn't certified as an painter? Do you tell Franco he can't sing because he wasn't certified as a singer? Do you tell a young Bill Gates he can't write software because he wasn't certified in computer science?

Regards

On Sun, Dec 3, 2017 at 4:57 PM, Watila Alex via kictanet < [email protected]> wrote:

...

EricKigada: Kenya’s controversial ICT Practitioners Bill 2016 to be tabled in parliament againtechmoran.com/kenyas-controv…https://twitter.com/EricKigada/status/937309893954031616

Sent from Yahoo Mail on Android <https://overview.mail.yahoo.com/mobile/?.src=Android>

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Hi Kevin, Let me take a pragmatic angle to this discussion, a young Kenyan man was yesterday featured on CNN for cryptocurrency mining http://edition.cnn.com/2017/12/18/africa/inside-life- cryptocurrency-miner-kenya-africa/index.html I don't see how this proposed legislation will create a conducive ecosystem for all future Eugines, I rest my case! Kind regards, On Tue, Dec 19, 2017 at 10:53 AM, Kevin Kamonye via kictanet < [email protected]> wrote:

Chief Anyega,

Actually I do some studies through the MIT that I can afford 😎. https://ocw.mit.edu/index.htm

Also please clarify what about my tone? Sidebar? Call me on 0720789158? I like to make new friends.

Regards,

Kevin

On 19 December 2017 at 10:45, anyega jefferson via kictanet < [email protected]> wrote:

...

Kevin

Chief,

On a light note,

You went to MIT or Stanford by any chance?

Because your tone, wow.

On Dec 19, 2017 10:42 AM, "Kevin Kamonye via kictanet" < [email protected]> wrote:

...

Good Morning Waithaka,

As I respond, I will repeat that we need to wait to see the actual bill that the CS will propose. Let us at least give him the level of good faith and trust that he has earned through his record, most of which is in the public domain for everyone to see.

Secondly, yes I am very cautious of government regulation. Maybe I can trust CS Mucheru and his team, but I do not know who will be in-charge tomorrow. If this regulation will have to happen, and I can tell you that if the CS says it is going to happen just start preparing yourself for the qualification interview, then I am willing to engage the ministry in a constructive manner while the window to do so is still open. Let us come up with the best possible balance that serves all.

Now, what you are proposing is short-circuiting that process and

...

pre-qualifying people. Why would you want to repeat what the industry has already done? Cisco, Juniper, Huawei, Nokia, Siemens have each their own certifications of Advanced Network Engineering. Why would you want to duplicate that? Would such an organization even have the skills to interrogate every possible certification in the market?

​I am not proposing any such thing. First of all who is Cisco, Juniper, Huawei? These are vendors who in this context provide training and certification for their specific products. This is good. Take these certifications to the institute, answer a few relevant questions and earn yet another certificate of approval.

On the other hand, are the exams of these vendors strictly administered in such a manner that you would have complete faith in anybody​ holding any of their certifications? Not really unless you are talking about someone who has sat for their lab examinations. As for these other levels, google "exam dumps, actual tests, brain dumps" to have an idea of what I am talking about. I know of people whose CVs and LinkedIN profiles have certifications that exhaust the entire alphabet yet they can deliver very little.

Aside from that, what if I cannot afford these foreign certifications or do not want to undertake them for one reason or the other. Who says we cannot build our own mechanism of certifying ourselves and we do it so well such that all other Africans will aspire to our standards. Or maybe even the whole world.

If you are not up to the challenge of the work that would need to be put in, then let others try to do so. I am so fired up about this one to the point that if for one reason or the other the Ministry decides to cancel this bill, I will lobby in any way that I can to compel them to deliver on this institute.

Regards,

Kevin

On 19 December 2017 at 02:55, Ngigi Waithaka <[email protected]> wrote:

...

Kevin,

Let us separate this into two: 1. Products 2. Services

Reviewing products is a lot easier, as you got the final product, can try the trial version and despite whoever has built it, you can then come up with a conclusion of whether its fit for purpose.

Now, how do you review Services? You asked how would I tell you are an advanced Network Engineer? I'd ask for your qualifications, certifications, experience, referrals would also shoot you questions around what I need you to do.

Now, what you are proposing is short-circuiting that process and pre-qualifying people. Why would you want to repeat what the industry has already done? Cisco, Juniper, Huawei, Nokia, Siemens have each their own certifications of Advanced Network Engineering. Why would you want to duplicate that? Would such an organization even have the skills to interrogate every possible certification in the market?

And that is just Networks... Extrapolate that to Software products which are in their thousands (Oracle, SAP, A1, MS, IBM, SAS, Redhat, HP etc) each with its own Certifications and Requirements and you want to pre-qualify people for that as well?

Add Software Development, more than 30 possible languages we develop in, each with more than 30 levels of different knowledge levels / permutations and you want to pre-qualify that as well?

Unless this is where our projected 1million jobs will come from, I really don't see anyone in Kenya and even globally with such resources and time to undertake such an exercise and one that wouldn't add any value beyond whats currently generally available in the market.

Regards

On Mon, Dec 18, 2017 at 7:08 PM, Kevin Kamonye <[email protected]

...

wrote:

...

Hello Waithaka,

Perhaps let us not judge that the proposed bill by the CS to be a duck before we have even seen or heard from it. Also, the only reason why I am entertaining this bill is that unlike the previous one, is that we are being invited to put forward constructive proposals.

Now, what are some of the professions we have in the software industry?

...

1. Programmers / developers 2. System Administrators 3. Database Administrators 4. Enterprise Architects 5. UX Designers Now, try making a common regulation for those 5 out of a possible hundreds...

​If we are talking about a peer reviewed ​process by committees of technologists from varied backgrounds then establishing whether a person is qualified to undertake the tasks that they claim proficiency in would be a walk in the park.

For instance, if you came to me and claimed to be a network engineer / system admin I would be able to ask you a few pertinent questions that would settle the matter very quickly.

If beyond that you wanted to claim that you are advanced/expert/arch level, then that would be between you and your prospective employer (broadly used to cover contract/consultancy services). You would need to provide them with the relevant certifications from the various vendors.

In lieu of this, it will either be up to you to do some social networking and get the recommendation of a certified person at that level or even better and as happens currently, you will have to be individually interviewed by the client's trusted technologist who would ask you for your portfolio and recommendations from other related work. They could further protect themselves by withholding your payment until you have delivered on their requirements, with the the further option of lodging a complaint against you from this body that will be established.

For new concepts that would be cutting edge, then the current principle remains valid. Patent your idea then work towards demonstrating its usefulness and the proposed applications and a well formed team of technologists will give you the support and approval that you need.

There could also be an appeals mechanism within the proposal where the entire community could be lobbied for support. A Reddit type of system could be used to upvote consensus.

If all fails then take yourself to a jurisdiction/community that gets you and let those that put you down burn in the glare of your success.

AS FOR THOSE SAYING THAT THIS WILL STIFLE NEW TECHNOLOGY. HOW DO YOU EXPECT SOMEONE TO DEVELOP CUTTING EDGE TECH IF THEY CANNOT EVEN DEMONSTRATE BASIC ICT COMPETENCY FROM ANY OF THE MANY FIELDS THAT ALREADY EXIST?!

​You would never be able to code/develop that new thingamajig if you cannot even show the ability to put something reasonable from what exists currently. And remember that we are talking about those who do not have any currently recognizable documentation to support your proficiency (this is my assumption until I can see the final proposed bill).

Regards,

Kevin

On 18 December 2017 at 17:58, Ngigi Waithaka via kictanet < [email protected]> wrote:

...

My take,

Some things are just ridiculous..

You have a HR Administrator, A Programmer, Office Administrator, an IP Lawyer, a sweeper, a Cyber Security expert all five working for: a)A banks IT department b) An insurance firms IT department c) A manufacturing firm IT department d) An IT consulting business e)A software engineering firm

Give me one set of laws regulating them?

You regulate individuals in *professions* not in an industry. Thats why in a bank, the HR Administrator gets regulated by HR association etc, Lawyer gets regulated by ISK, the Programmer (based on whatever courses he's taken and/or experience etc) by their respective bodies and/or experience etc

In an industry, you regulate final products and/or final services delivered!

Now, what are some of the professions we have in the software industry? 1. Programmers / developers 2. System Administrators 3. Database Administrators 4. Enterprise Architects 5. UX Designers

Now, try making a common regulation for those 5 out of a possible hundreds...

Finally, for those us in software, you will agree its more art at some point than science, so how do you regulate art?

Do you tell Picasso he can't paint because he wasn't certified as an painter? Do you tell Franco he can't sing because he wasn't certified as a singer? Do you tell a young Bill Gates he can't write software because he wasn't certified in computer science?

Regards

On Sun, Dec 3, 2017 at 4:57 PM, Watila Alex via kictanet < [email protected]> wrote:

> EricKigada: Kenya’s controversial ICT Practitioners Bill 2016 to be tabled in parliament againtechmoran.com/kenyas-controv…https://twitter.com/EricKigada/status/937309893954031616 > > > Sent from Yahoo Mail on Android > <https://overview.mail.yahoo.com/mobile/?.src=Android> > > _______________________________________________ > kictanet mailing list > [email protected] > https://lists.kictanet.or.ke/mailman/listinfo/kictanet > Twitter: http://twitter.com/kictanet > Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/KICTANet/ > > Unsubscribe or change your options at https://lists.kictanet.or.ke/m > ailman/options/kictanet/ngigi%40at.co.ke > > The Kenya ICT Action Network (KICTANet) is a multi-stakeholder > platform for people and institutions interested and involved in ICT policy > and regulation. The network aims to act as a catalyst for reform in the ICT > sector in support of the national aim of ICT enabled growth and development. > > KICTANetiquette : Adhere to the same standards of acceptable > behaviors online that you follow in real life: respect people's times and > bandwidth, share knowledge, don't flame or abuse or personalize, respect > privacy, do not spam, do not market your wares or qualifications. > >

-- *Regards,*

*Wait**haka Ngigi* Chief Executive Officer | Alliance Technologies | MCK Nairobi Synod Building T +254 20 525 0750 |Office Mobile: +254 716 201061 | M +254 737 811 000 www.at.co.ke

_______________________________________________ kictanet mailing list [email protected] https://lists.kictanet.or.ke/mailman/listinfo/kictanet Twitter: http://twitter.com/kictanet Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/KICTANet/

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KICTANetiquette : Adhere to the same standards of acceptable behaviors online that you follow in real life: respect people's times and bandwidth, share knowledge, don't flame or abuse or personalize, respect privacy, do not spam, do not market your wares or qualifications.

-- *Regards,*

*Wait**haka Ngigi* Chief Executive Officer | Alliance Technologies | MCK Nairobi Synod Building T +254 20 525 0750 |Office Mobile: +254 716 201061 | M +254 737 811 000 www.at.co.ke

_______________________________________________ kictanet mailing list [email protected] https://lists.kictanet.or.ke/mailman/listinfo/kictanet Twitter: http://twitter.com/kictanet Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/KICTANet/

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KICTANetiquette : Adhere to the same standards of acceptable behaviors online that you follow in real life: respect people's times and bandwidth, share knowledge, don't flame or abuse or personalize, respect privacy, do not spam, do not market your wares or qualifications.

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KICTANetiquette : Adhere to the same standards of acceptable behaviors online that you follow in real life: respect people's times and bandwidth, share knowledge, don't flame or abuse or personalize, respect privacy, do not spam, do not market your wares or qualifications.

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The Kenya ICT Action Network (KICTANet) is a multi-stakeholder platform for people and institutions interested and involved in ICT policy and regulation. The network aims to act as a catalyst for reform in the ICT sector in support of the national aim of ICT enabled growth and development.

KICTANetiquette : Adhere to the same standards of acceptable behaviors online that you follow in real life: respect people's times and bandwidth, share knowledge, don't flame or abuse or personalize, respect privacy, do not spam, do not market your wares or qualifications.

-- Rosemary Koech-Kimwatu Advocate Legal and Regulatory Specialist- Oxygene MCL Tel: +254 718 181644