Should streaming services pay ISPs for increased traffic?
In the United States, Netflix has been paying a fee to broadband provider Comcast Corp for faster streaming speeds. South Korea's ISP SK Broadband has sued Netflix to pay for costs from increased network traffic and maintenance work because of a surge of viewers to the U.S. firm's content. Seoul court said Netflix should "reasonably" give something in return to the internet service provider for network usage, and multiple South Korean lawmakers have spoken out against content providers who do not pay for network usage despite generating explosive traffic. other content providers such as Amazon, Apple and Facebook are paying SK Broadband for usage of the network. Should content providers compensate network providers for increased traffic to their network? Is this a net neutrality issue where all content should be treated equally? https://lnkd.in/dNjbFVeC
On Fri, Oct 8, 2021 at 12:38 PM Mwendwa Kivuva via KICTANet < kictanet@lists.kictanet.or.ke> wrote:
In the United States, Netflix has been paying a fee to broadband provider Comcast Corp for faster streaming speeds.
South Korea's ISP SK Broadband has sued Netflix to pay for costs from increased network traffic and maintenance work because of a surge of viewers to the U.S. firm's content. Seoul court said Netflix should "reasonably" give something in return to the internet service provider for network usage, and multiple South Korean lawmakers have spoken out against content providers who do not pay for network usage despite generating explosive traffic.
other content providers such as Amazon, Apple and Facebook are paying SK Broadband for usage of the network.
Should content providers compensate network providers for increased traffic to their network? Is this a net neutrality issue where all content should be treated equally?se or personalize, respect privacy, do not spam, do not market your wares or qualifications.
How is my usage of my services I am paying my ISP for being interpreted as "usage by my content provider"? Is this the chicken-and-egg situation I have been hearing about? I am already paying my ISP. If I didn't, they'd not even see the traffic to Netflix, YT, etc. Content providers compensating network providers for increased traffic to their network seems like stealing for me. The content providers are not using the ISP network. It's the client who pays for the link who does. Do ISPs want to give FREE connections to me so that I can use Netflix, YT, HBOMax and have these content providers pay them for my own traffic? -- Best regards, Odhiambo WASHINGTON, Nairobi,KE +254 7 3200 0004/+254 7 2274 3223 "Oh, the cruft.", egrep -v '^$|^.*#' :-)
Interesting angle Washington. It is indeed a chicken and egg situation. As a network engineer, you know the implication of the international transit data on the cost of running an ISP. Profitability of an ISP is based on the assumption that on average, the users will not consume more than fair quota, and if they do, other users using limited services but paying the same amount per package will compensate and balance out the cost, leaving some margin for profitability. If streaming services squeeze out this advantage from ISPs, which is very easy because you just leave the service running, and it consumes all bandwidth, what recourse does ISPs have? Increase the cost to consumers? Share the burden with commercial content providers? Degrade service offered by content providers? Where should the balance be? On Fri, 8 Oct 2021, 12:51 Odhiambo Washington via KICTANet, < kictanet@lists.kictanet.or.ke> wrote:
On Fri, Oct 8, 2021 at 12:38 PM Mwendwa Kivuva via KICTANet < kictanet@lists.kictanet.or.ke> wrote:
In the United States, Netflix has been paying a fee to broadband provider Comcast Corp for faster streaming speeds.
South Korea's ISP SK Broadband has sued Netflix to pay for costs from increased network traffic and maintenance work because of a surge of viewers to the U.S. firm's content. Seoul court said Netflix should "reasonably" give something in return to the internet service provider for network usage, and multiple South Korean lawmakers have spoken out against content providers who do not pay for network usage despite generating explosive traffic.
other content providers such as Amazon, Apple and Facebook are paying SK Broadband for usage of the network.
Should content providers compensate network providers for increased traffic to their network? Is this a net neutrality issue where all content should be treated equally?se or personalize, respect privacy, do not spam, do not market your wares or qualifications.
How is my usage of my services I am paying my ISP for being interpreted as "usage by my content provider"? Is this the chicken-and-egg situation I have been hearing about? I am already paying my ISP. If I didn't, they'd not even see the traffic to Netflix, YT, etc.
Content providers compensating network providers for increased traffic to their network seems like stealing for me. The content providers are not using the ISP network. It's the client who pays for the link who does. Do ISPs want to give FREE connections to me so that I can use Netflix, YT, HBOMax and have these content providers pay them for my own traffic?
-- Best regards, Odhiambo WASHINGTON, Nairobi,KE +254 7 3200 0004/+254 7 2274 3223 "Oh, the cruft.", egrep -v '^$|^.*#' :-) _______________________________________________ KICTANet mailing list KICTANet@lists.kictanet.or.ke https://lists.kictanet.or.ke/mailman/listinfo/kictanet Twitter: http://twitter.com/kictanet Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/KICTANet/
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KICTANetiquette : Adhere to the same standards of acceptable behaviors online that you follow in real life: respect people's times and bandwidth, share knowledge, don't flame or abuse or personalize, respect privacy, do not spam, do not market your wares or qualifications.
KICTANet - The Power of Communities, is Kenya's premier ICT policy engagement platform.
@Mwendwa Kivuva <kivuva@kictanet.or.ke> and all I think ISPs are not being realistic. On one hand they squeeze us on 'fair usage' on the other hand they are squeezing content providers for 'over using' their pipes. If content creation is so lucrative why not get into it? Let me remind everyone the principles of Net Neutrality - *Net neutrality is the concept that states that organizations, such as Internet service providers, should treat all data on the internet equally. It promotes a free and open internet, where users can access content without restriction, provided the content does not violate any laws.* If we allow this loop hole you suggest where does it end? Let's take a look at our local scenario in Kenya. Safaricom is already in the content business. If we allow this liberal interpretation of Net Neutrality it won't be long before they demand gatekeeping charges from Viusasa and other local content providers...Which will create a clear conflict of interest. Let's be careful. I have ALWAYS advocated for a clear Policy and Regulatory interpretation of Net Neutrality Rules in this country. We are yet to see any. MOICT and CA wako wapi? Regards *Ali Hussein* Fintech | Digital Transformation Tel: +254 713 601113 Twitter: @AliHKassim Skype: abu-jomo LinkedIn: http://ke.linkedin.com/in/alihkassim <http://ke.linkedin.com/in/alihkassim> Any information of a personal nature expressed in this email are purely mine and do not necessarily reflect the official positions of the organizations that I work with. On Fri, Oct 8, 2021 at 1:25 PM Mwendwa Kivuva via KICTANet < kictanet@lists.kictanet.or.ke> wrote:
Interesting angle Washington. It is indeed a chicken and egg situation.
As a network engineer, you know the implication of the international transit data on the cost of running an ISP. Profitability of an ISP is based on the assumption that on average, the users will not consume more than fair quota, and if they do, other users using limited services but paying the same amount per package will compensate and balance out the cost, leaving some margin for profitability. If streaming services squeeze out this advantage from ISPs, which is very easy because you just leave the service running, and it consumes all bandwidth, what recourse does ISPs have? Increase the cost to consumers? Share the burden with commercial content providers? Degrade service offered by content providers? Where should the balance be?
On Fri, 8 Oct 2021, 12:51 Odhiambo Washington via KICTANet, < kictanet@lists.kictanet.or.ke> wrote:
On Fri, Oct 8, 2021 at 12:38 PM Mwendwa Kivuva via KICTANet < kictanet@lists.kictanet.or.ke> wrote:
In the United States, Netflix has been paying a fee to broadband provider Comcast Corp for faster streaming speeds.
South Korea's ISP SK Broadband has sued Netflix to pay for costs from increased network traffic and maintenance work because of a surge of viewers to the U.S. firm's content. Seoul court said Netflix should "reasonably" give something in return to the internet service provider for network usage, and multiple South Korean lawmakers have spoken out against content providers who do not pay for network usage despite generating explosive traffic.
other content providers such as Amazon, Apple and Facebook are paying SK Broadband for usage of the network.
Should content providers compensate network providers for increased traffic to their network? Is this a net neutrality issue where all content should be treated equally?se or personalize, respect privacy, do not spam, do not market your wares or qualifications.
How is my usage of my services I am paying my ISP for being interpreted as "usage by my content provider"? Is this the chicken-and-egg situation I have been hearing about? I am already paying my ISP. If I didn't, they'd not even see the traffic to Netflix, YT, etc.
Content providers compensating network providers for increased traffic to their network seems like stealing for me. The content providers are not using the ISP network. It's the client who pays for the link who does. Do ISPs want to give FREE connections to me so that I can use Netflix, YT, HBOMax and have these content providers pay them for my own traffic?
-- Best regards, Odhiambo WASHINGTON, Nairobi,KE +254 7 3200 0004/+254 7 2274 3223 "Oh, the cruft.", egrep -v '^$|^.*#' :-) _______________________________________________ KICTANet mailing list KICTANet@lists.kictanet.or.ke https://lists.kictanet.or.ke/mailman/listinfo/kictanet Twitter: http://twitter.com/kictanet Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/KICTANet/
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KICTANetiquette : Adhere to the same standards of acceptable behaviors online that you follow in real life: respect people's times and bandwidth, share knowledge, don't flame or abuse or personalize, respect privacy, do not spam, do not market your wares or qualifications.
KICTANet - The Power of Communities, is Kenya's premier ICT policy engagement platform.
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KICTANet is a multi-stakeholder Think Tank for people and institutions interested and involved in ICT policy and regulation. KICTANet is a catalyst for reform in the Information and Communication Technology sector. Its work is guided by four pillars of Policy Advocacy, Capacity Building, Research, and Stakeholder Engagement.
KICTANetiquette : Adhere to the same standards of acceptable behaviors online that you follow in real life: respect people's times and bandwidth, share knowledge, don't flame or abuse or personalize, respect privacy, do not spam, do not market your wares or qualifications.
KICTANet - The Power of Communities, is Kenya's premier ICT policy engagement platform.
This seems to me to be a Business Sustainability Strategy for Netflix, because if users don't have a good experience with its content as a result of slow speeds, will people want to keep subscribing for a service they feel they may not get the full experience of? And I suppose envisaging this situation could be the reason why they have different packages based on your pipe output. Netflix and content providers obviously majorly depend on ISPs for the success of their undertaking, and so I feel that it is good business practice for Netflix to incentivise ISPs to enable them upgrade their services. And that they should probably do that especially in geographies where they have high subscriptions and not just in the US, and to be proactive about it. This way everyone stays in business... On Sat, 9 Oct 2021 at 09:53, Ali Hussein via KICTANet < kictanet@lists.kictanet.or.ke> wrote:
@Mwendwa Kivuva <kivuva@kictanet.or.ke> and all
I think ISPs are not being realistic. On one hand they squeeze us on 'fair usage' on the other hand they are squeezing content providers for 'over using' their pipes. If content creation is so lucrative why not get into it?
Let me remind everyone the principles of Net Neutrality -
*Net neutrality is the concept that states that organizations, such as Internet service providers, should treat all data on the internet equally. It promotes a free and open internet, where users can access content without restriction, provided the content does not violate any laws.*
If we allow this loop hole you suggest where does it end? Let's take a look at our local scenario in Kenya.
Safaricom is already in the content business. If we allow this liberal interpretation of Net Neutrality it won't be long before they demand gatekeeping charges from Viusasa and other local content providers...Which will create a clear conflict of interest.
Let's be careful. I have ALWAYS advocated for a clear Policy and Regulatory interpretation of Net Neutrality Rules in this country. We are yet to see any. MOICT and CA wako wapi?
Regards
*Ali Hussein*
Fintech | Digital Transformation
Tel: +254 713 601113
Twitter: @AliHKassim
Skype: abu-jomo
LinkedIn: http://ke.linkedin.com/in/alihkassim <http://ke.linkedin.com/in/alihkassim>
Any information of a personal nature expressed in this email are purely mine and do not necessarily reflect the official positions of the organizations that I work with.
On Fri, Oct 8, 2021 at 1:25 PM Mwendwa Kivuva via KICTANet < kictanet@lists.kictanet.or.ke> wrote:
Interesting angle Washington. It is indeed a chicken and egg situation.
As a network engineer, you know the implication of the international transit data on the cost of running an ISP. Profitability of an ISP is based on the assumption that on average, the users will not consume more than fair quota, and if they do, other users using limited services but paying the same amount per package will compensate and balance out the cost, leaving some margin for profitability. If streaming services squeeze out this advantage from ISPs, which is very easy because you just leave the service running, and it consumes all bandwidth, what recourse does ISPs have? Increase the cost to consumers? Share the burden with commercial content providers? Degrade service offered by content providers? Where should the balance be?
On Fri, 8 Oct 2021, 12:51 Odhiambo Washington via KICTANet, < kictanet@lists.kictanet.or.ke> wrote:
On Fri, Oct 8, 2021 at 12:38 PM Mwendwa Kivuva via KICTANet < kictanet@lists.kictanet.or.ke> wrote:
In the United States, Netflix has been paying a fee to broadband provider Comcast Corp for faster streaming speeds.
South Korea's ISP SK Broadband has sued Netflix to pay for costs from increased network traffic and maintenance work because of a surge of viewers to the U.S. firm's content. Seoul court said Netflix should "reasonably" give something in return to the internet service provider for network usage, and multiple South Korean lawmakers have spoken out against content providers who do not pay for network usage despite generating explosive traffic.
other content providers such as Amazon, Apple and Facebook are paying SK Broadband for usage of the network.
Should content providers compensate network providers for increased traffic to their network? Is this a net neutrality issue where all content should be treated equally?se or personalize, respect privacy, do not spam, do not market your wares or qualifications.
How is my usage of my services I am paying my ISP for being interpreted as "usage by my content provider"? Is this the chicken-and-egg situation I have been hearing about? I am already paying my ISP. If I didn't, they'd not even see the traffic to Netflix, YT, etc.
Content providers compensating network providers for increased traffic to their network seems like stealing for me. The content providers are not using the ISP network. It's the client who pays for the link who does. Do ISPs want to give FREE connections to me so that I can use Netflix, YT, HBOMax and have these content providers pay them for my own traffic?
-- Best regards, Odhiambo WASHINGTON, Nairobi,KE +254 7 3200 0004/+254 7 2274 3223 "Oh, the cruft.", egrep -v '^$|^.*#' :-) _______________________________________________ KICTANet mailing list KICTANet@lists.kictanet.or.ke https://lists.kictanet.or.ke/mailman/listinfo/kictanet Twitter: http://twitter.com/kictanet Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/KICTANet/
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KICTANet is a multi-stakeholder Think Tank for people and institutions interested and involved in ICT policy and regulation. KICTANet is a catalyst for reform in the Information and Communication Technology sector. Its work is guided by four pillars of Policy Advocacy, Capacity Building, Research, and Stakeholder Engagement.
KICTANetiquette : Adhere to the same standards of acceptable behaviors online that you follow in real life: respect people's times and bandwidth, share knowledge, don't flame or abuse or personalize, respect privacy, do not spam, do not market your wares or qualifications.
KICTANet - The Power of Communities, is Kenya's premier ICT policy engagement platform.
_______________________________________________ KICTANet mailing list KICTANet@lists.kictanet.or.ke https://lists.kictanet.or.ke/mailman/listinfo/kictanet Twitter: http://twitter.com/kictanet Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/KICTANet/
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KICTANet is a multi-stakeholder Think Tank for people and institutions interested and involved in ICT policy and regulation. KICTANet is a catalyst for reform in the Information and Communication Technology sector. Its work is guided by four pillars of Policy Advocacy, Capacity Building, Research, and Stakeholder Engagement.
KICTANetiquette : Adhere to the same standards of acceptable behaviors online that you follow in real life: respect people's times and bandwidth, share knowledge, don't flame or abuse or personalize, respect privacy, do not spam, do not market your wares or qualifications.
KICTANet - The Power of Communities, is Kenya's premier ICT policy engagement platform.
_______________________________________________ KICTANet mailing list KICTANet@lists.kictanet.or.ke https://lists.kictanet.or.ke/mailman/listinfo/kictanet Twitter: http://twitter.com/kictanet Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/KICTANet/
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KICTANetiquette : Adhere to the same standards of acceptable behaviors online that you follow in real life: respect people's times and bandwidth, share knowledge, don't flame or abuse or personalize, respect privacy, do not spam, do not market your wares or qualifications.
KICTANet - The Power of Communities, is Kenya's premier ICT policy engagement platform.
-- *Dream and Your Dreams Will Fall Short <kathymwai@gmail.com>...*
So, if Netflix, YT, and all the other content providers decide to incentivise, how will they measure how much the incentive has worked? And how much value do they get from their funds? Will the ISPs be incentivised based on the traffic volumes to the content providers or just a rounded up figure? Perhaps the best way out of this is for the ISPs to come together and ask the content providers to put their content infrastructure locally (mirror the content) so that their int'l bandwidth is left untouched??? On Mon, Oct 11, 2021 at 12:58 PM Kathy Mwai via KICTANet < kictanet@lists.kictanet.or.ke> wrote:
This seems to me to be a Business Sustainability Strategy for Netflix, because if users don't have a good experience with its content as a result of slow speeds, will people want to keep subscribing for a service they feel they may not get the full experience of? And I suppose envisaging this situation could be the reason why they have different packages based on your pipe output. Netflix and content providers obviously majorly depend on ISPs for the success of their undertaking, and so I feel that it is good business practice for Netflix to incentivise ISPs to enable them upgrade their services. And that they should probably do that especially in geographies where they have high subscriptions and not just in the US, and to be proactive about it. This way everyone stays in business...
On Sat, 9 Oct 2021 at 09:53, Ali Hussein via KICTANet < kictanet@lists.kictanet.or.ke> wrote:
@Mwendwa Kivuva <kivuva@kictanet.or.ke> and all
I think ISPs are not being realistic. On one hand they squeeze us on 'fair usage' on the other hand they are squeezing content providers for 'over using' their pipes. If content creation is so lucrative why not get into it?
Let me remind everyone the principles of Net Neutrality -
*Net neutrality is the concept that states that organizations, such as Internet service providers, should treat all data on the internet equally. It promotes a free and open internet, where users can access content without restriction, provided the content does not violate any laws.*
If we allow this loop hole you suggest where does it end? Let's take a look at our local scenario in Kenya.
Safaricom is already in the content business. If we allow this liberal interpretation of Net Neutrality it won't be long before they demand gatekeeping charges from Viusasa and other local content providers...Which will create a clear conflict of interest.
Let's be careful. I have ALWAYS advocated for a clear Policy and Regulatory interpretation of Net Neutrality Rules in this country. We are yet to see any. MOICT and CA wako wapi?
Regards
*Ali Hussein*
Fintech | Digital Transformation
Tel: +254 713 601113
Twitter: @AliHKassim
Skype: abu-jomo
LinkedIn: http://ke.linkedin.com/in/alihkassim <http://ke.linkedin.com/in/alihkassim>
Any information of a personal nature expressed in this email are purely mine and do not necessarily reflect the official positions of the organizations that I work with.
On Fri, Oct 8, 2021 at 1:25 PM Mwendwa Kivuva via KICTANet < kictanet@lists.kictanet.or.ke> wrote:
Interesting angle Washington. It is indeed a chicken and egg situation.
As a network engineer, you know the implication of the international transit data on the cost of running an ISP. Profitability of an ISP is based on the assumption that on average, the users will not consume more than fair quota, and if they do, other users using limited services but paying the same amount per package will compensate and balance out the cost, leaving some margin for profitability. If streaming services squeeze out this advantage from ISPs, which is very easy because you just leave the service running, and it consumes all bandwidth, what recourse does ISPs have? Increase the cost to consumers? Share the burden with commercial content providers? Degrade service offered by content providers? Where should the balance be?
On Fri, 8 Oct 2021, 12:51 Odhiambo Washington via KICTANet, < kictanet@lists.kictanet.or.ke> wrote:
On Fri, Oct 8, 2021 at 12:38 PM Mwendwa Kivuva via KICTANet < kictanet@lists.kictanet.or.ke> wrote:
In the United States, Netflix has been paying a fee to broadband provider Comcast Corp for faster streaming speeds.
South Korea's ISP SK Broadband has sued Netflix to pay for costs from increased network traffic and maintenance work because of a surge of viewers to the U.S. firm's content. Seoul court said Netflix should "reasonably" give something in return to the internet service provider for network usage, and multiple South Korean lawmakers have spoken out against content providers who do not pay for network usage despite generating explosive traffic.
other content providers such as Amazon, Apple and Facebook are paying SK Broadband for usage of the network.
Should content providers compensate network providers for increased traffic to their network? Is this a net neutrality issue where all content should be treated equally?se or personalize, respect privacy, do not spam, do not market your wares or qualifications.
How is my usage of my services I am paying my ISP for being interpreted as "usage by my content provider"? Is this the chicken-and-egg situation I have been hearing about? I am already paying my ISP. If I didn't, they'd not even see the traffic to Netflix, YT, etc.
Content providers compensating network providers for increased traffic to their network seems like stealing for me. The content providers are not using the ISP network. It's the client who pays for the link who does. Do ISPs want to give FREE connections to me so that I can use Netflix, YT, HBOMax and have these content providers pay them for my own traffic?
-- Best regards, Odhiambo WASHINGTON, Nairobi,KE +254 7 3200 0004/+254 7 2274 3223 "Oh, the cruft.", egrep -v '^$|^.*#' :-) _______________________________________________ KICTANet mailing list KICTANet@lists.kictanet.or.ke https://lists.kictanet.or.ke/mailman/listinfo/kictanet Twitter: http://twitter.com/kictanet Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/KICTANet/
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KICTANet is a multi-stakeholder Think Tank for people and institutions interested and involved in ICT policy and regulation. KICTANet is a catalyst for reform in the Information and Communication Technology sector. Its work is guided by four pillars of Policy Advocacy, Capacity Building, Research, and Stakeholder Engagement.
KICTANetiquette : Adhere to the same standards of acceptable behaviors online that you follow in real life: respect people's times and bandwidth, share knowledge, don't flame or abuse or personalize, respect privacy, do not spam, do not market your wares or qualifications.
KICTANet - The Power of Communities, is Kenya's premier ICT policy engagement platform.
_______________________________________________ KICTANet mailing list KICTANet@lists.kictanet.or.ke https://lists.kictanet.or.ke/mailman/listinfo/kictanet Twitter: http://twitter.com/kictanet Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/KICTANet/
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KICTANetiquette : Adhere to the same standards of acceptable behaviors online that you follow in real life: respect people's times and bandwidth, share knowledge, don't flame or abuse or personalize, respect privacy, do not spam, do not market your wares or qualifications.
KICTANet - The Power of Communities, is Kenya's premier ICT policy engagement platform.
_______________________________________________ KICTANet mailing list KICTANet@lists.kictanet.or.ke https://lists.kictanet.or.ke/mailman/listinfo/kictanet Twitter: http://twitter.com/kictanet Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/KICTANet/
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KICTANet is a multi-stakeholder Think Tank for people and institutions interested and involved in ICT policy and regulation. KICTANet is a catalyst for reform in the Information and Communication Technology sector. Its work is guided by four pillars of Policy Advocacy, Capacity Building, Research, and Stakeholder Engagement.
KICTANetiquette : Adhere to the same standards of acceptable behaviors online that you follow in real life: respect people's times and bandwidth, share knowledge, don't flame or abuse or personalize, respect privacy, do not spam, do not market your wares or qualifications.
KICTANet - The Power of Communities, is Kenya's premier ICT policy engagement platform.
-- *Dream and Your Dreams Will Fall Short <kathymwai@gmail.com>...*
_______________________________________________ KICTANet mailing list KICTANet@lists.kictanet.or.ke https://lists.kictanet.or.ke/mailman/listinfo/kictanet Twitter: http://twitter.com/kictanet Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/KICTANet/
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KICTANet is a multi-stakeholder Think Tank for people and institutions interested and involved in ICT policy and regulation. KICTANet is a catalyst for reform in the Information and Communication Technology sector. Its work is guided by four pillars of Policy Advocacy, Capacity Building, Research, and Stakeholder Engagement.
KICTANetiquette : Adhere to the same standards of acceptable behaviors online that you follow in real life: respect people's times and bandwidth, share knowledge, don't flame or abuse or personalize, respect privacy, do not spam, do not market your wares or qualifications.
KICTANet - The Power of Communities, is Kenya's premier ICT policy engagement platform.
-- Best regards, Odhiambo WASHINGTON, Nairobi,KE +254 7 3200 0004/+254 7 2274 3223 "Oh, the cruft.", egrep -v '^$|^.*#' :-)
I don't think that YouTube presents the same traffic problem to ISPs that Netflix does. (By the way I'm an on and off Netflix subscriber so I haven't particularly experienced any issues watching any big hyped shows like the game of thrones or the Squid games at the moment) The nature of Netflix content is similar to the movie theatres. When it's a blockbuster being premiered like with the Bond movie this last week, the traffic to the movie theaters is more as I experienced last weekend: But not when it's just kawaida movies, and YouTube never churns out content in this fashion, so we could remove them from the notorious list for now. That being said, if anything I think it should only be Netflix incentivising a rounded up figure not the content providers and if it means Netflix deducts a cost from the content providers to forward to the ISPs, so be it I suppose? At the end of the day, content gets broadcast as that is the intention. Perhaps I'm being naive in imagining a perfect world where such good business practices exist, but what if really? Or maybe once 5G becomes ubiquitous the conversation will change... On Mon, 11 Oct 2021 at 13:09, Odhiambo Washington <odhiambo@gmail.com> wrote:
So, if Netflix, YT, and all the other content providers decide to incentivise, how will they measure how much the incentive has worked? And how much value do they get from their funds? Will the ISPs be incentivised based on the traffic volumes to the content providers or just a rounded up figure? Perhaps the best way out of this is for the ISPs to come together and ask the content providers to put their content infrastructure locally (mirror the content) so that their int'l bandwidth is left untouched???
On Mon, Oct 11, 2021 at 12:58 PM Kathy Mwai via KICTANet < kictanet@lists.kictanet.or.ke> wrote:
This seems to me to be a Business Sustainability Strategy for Netflix, because if users don't have a good experience with its content as a result of slow speeds, will people want to keep subscribing for a service they feel they may not get the full experience of? And I suppose envisaging this situation could be the reason why they have different packages based on your pipe output. Netflix and content providers obviously majorly depend on ISPs for the success of their undertaking, and so I feel that it is good business practice for Netflix to incentivise ISPs to enable them upgrade their services. And that they should probably do that especially in geographies where they have high subscriptions and not just in the US, and to be proactive about it. This way everyone stays in business...
On Sat, 9 Oct 2021 at 09:53, Ali Hussein via KICTANet < kictanet@lists.kictanet.or.ke> wrote:
@Mwendwa Kivuva <kivuva@kictanet.or.ke> and all
I think ISPs are not being realistic. On one hand they squeeze us on 'fair usage' on the other hand they are squeezing content providers for 'over using' their pipes. If content creation is so lucrative why not get into it?
Let me remind everyone the principles of Net Neutrality -
*Net neutrality is the concept that states that organizations, such as Internet service providers, should treat all data on the internet equally. It promotes a free and open internet, where users can access content without restriction, provided the content does not violate any laws.*
If we allow this loop hole you suggest where does it end? Let's take a look at our local scenario in Kenya.
Safaricom is already in the content business. If we allow this liberal interpretation of Net Neutrality it won't be long before they demand gatekeeping charges from Viusasa and other local content providers...Which will create a clear conflict of interest.
Let's be careful. I have ALWAYS advocated for a clear Policy and Regulatory interpretation of Net Neutrality Rules in this country. We are yet to see any. MOICT and CA wako wapi?
Regards
*Ali Hussein*
Fintech | Digital Transformation
Tel: +254 713 601113
Twitter: @AliHKassim
Skype: abu-jomo
LinkedIn: http://ke.linkedin.com/in/alihkassim <http://ke.linkedin.com/in/alihkassim>
Any information of a personal nature expressed in this email are purely mine and do not necessarily reflect the official positions of the organizations that I work with.
On Fri, Oct 8, 2021 at 1:25 PM Mwendwa Kivuva via KICTANet < kictanet@lists.kictanet.or.ke> wrote:
Interesting angle Washington. It is indeed a chicken and egg situation.
As a network engineer, you know the implication of the international transit data on the cost of running an ISP. Profitability of an ISP is based on the assumption that on average, the users will not consume more than fair quota, and if they do, other users using limited services but paying the same amount per package will compensate and balance out the cost, leaving some margin for profitability. If streaming services squeeze out this advantage from ISPs, which is very easy because you just leave the service running, and it consumes all bandwidth, what recourse does ISPs have? Increase the cost to consumers? Share the burden with commercial content providers? Degrade service offered by content providers? Where should the balance be?
On Fri, 8 Oct 2021, 12:51 Odhiambo Washington via KICTANet, < kictanet@lists.kictanet.or.ke> wrote:
On Fri, Oct 8, 2021 at 12:38 PM Mwendwa Kivuva via KICTANet < kictanet@lists.kictanet.or.ke> wrote:
In the United States, Netflix has been paying a fee to broadband provider Comcast Corp for faster streaming speeds.
South Korea's ISP SK Broadband has sued Netflix to pay for costs from increased network traffic and maintenance work because of a surge of viewers to the U.S. firm's content. Seoul court said Netflix should "reasonably" give something in return to the internet service provider for network usage, and multiple South Korean lawmakers have spoken out against content providers who do not pay for network usage despite generating explosive traffic.
other content providers such as Amazon, Apple and Facebook are paying SK Broadband for usage of the network.
Should content providers compensate network providers for increased traffic to their network? Is this a net neutrality issue where all content should be treated equally?se or personalize, respect privacy, do not spam, do not market your wares or qualifications.
How is my usage of my services I am paying my ISP for being interpreted as "usage by my content provider"? Is this the chicken-and-egg situation I have been hearing about? I am already paying my ISP. If I didn't, they'd not even see the traffic to Netflix, YT, etc.
Content providers compensating network providers for increased traffic to their network seems like stealing for me. The content providers are not using the ISP network. It's the client who pays for the link who does. Do ISPs want to give FREE connections to me so that I can use Netflix, YT, HBOMax and have these content providers pay them for my own traffic?
-- Best regards, Odhiambo WASHINGTON, Nairobi,KE +254 7 3200 0004/+254 7 2274 3223 "Oh, the cruft.", egrep -v '^$|^.*#' :-) _______________________________________________ KICTANet mailing list KICTANet@lists.kictanet.or.ke https://lists.kictanet.or.ke/mailman/listinfo/kictanet Twitter: http://twitter.com/kictanet Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/KICTANet/
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KICTANetiquette : Adhere to the same standards of acceptable behaviors online that you follow in real life: respect people's times and bandwidth, share knowledge, don't flame or abuse or personalize, respect privacy, do not spam, do not market your wares or qualifications.
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KICTANetiquette : Adhere to the same standards of acceptable behaviors online that you follow in real life: respect people's times and bandwidth, share knowledge, don't flame or abuse or personalize, respect privacy, do not spam, do not market your wares or qualifications.
KICTANet - The Power of Communities, is Kenya's premier ICT policy engagement platform.
-- Best regards, Odhiambo WASHINGTON, Nairobi,KE +254 7 3200 0004/+254 7 2274 3223 "Oh, the cruft.", egrep -v '^$|^.*#' :-)
-- *Dream and Your Dreams Will Fall Short <kathymwai@gmail.com>...*
Almost certain that Netflix content is mirrored in Korea given that: - Netflix hosts on AWS - AWS has availability zones <https://aws.amazon.com/about-aws/global-infrastructure/regions_az/> in Seoul This <https://techcrunch.com/2021/09/30/south-korean-isp-sk-broadband-counterclaims-against-netflix-for-bandwidth-usage-fees/> is also interesting: "Meanwhile, another global streaming giant, Disney Plus, is set to launch in South Korea in November. Disney Plus reportedly plans to use third-party content delivery networks (CDNs) instead of using ISP’s networks to avoid the bandwidth usage fees." On Mon, Oct 11, 2021 at 1:27 PM Kathy Mwai via KICTANet < kictanet@lists.kictanet.or.ke> wrote:
I don't think that YouTube presents the same traffic problem to ISPs that Netflix does. (By the way I'm an on and off Netflix subscriber so I haven't particularly experienced any issues watching any big hyped shows like the game of thrones or the Squid games at the moment) The nature of Netflix content is similar to the movie theatres. When it's a blockbuster being premiered like with the Bond movie this last week, the traffic to the movie theaters is more as I experienced last weekend: But not when it's just kawaida movies, and YouTube never churns out content in this fashion, so we could remove them from the notorious list for now.
That being said, if anything I think it should only be Netflix incentivising a rounded up figure not the content providers and if it means Netflix deducts a cost from the content providers to forward to the ISPs, so be it I suppose? At the end of the day, content gets broadcast as that is the intention. Perhaps I'm being naive in imagining a perfect world where such good business practices exist, but what if really? Or maybe once 5G becomes ubiquitous the conversation will change...
On Mon, 11 Oct 2021 at 13:09, Odhiambo Washington <odhiambo@gmail.com> wrote:
So, if Netflix, YT, and all the other content providers decide to incentivise, how will they measure how much the incentive has worked? And how much value do they get from their funds? Will the ISPs be incentivised based on the traffic volumes to the content providers or just a rounded up figure? Perhaps the best way out of this is for the ISPs to come together and ask the content providers to put their content infrastructure locally (mirror the content) so that their int'l bandwidth is left untouched???
On Mon, Oct 11, 2021 at 12:58 PM Kathy Mwai via KICTANet < kictanet@lists.kictanet.or.ke> wrote:
This seems to me to be a Business Sustainability Strategy for Netflix, because if users don't have a good experience with its content as a result of slow speeds, will people want to keep subscribing for a service they feel they may not get the full experience of? And I suppose envisaging this situation could be the reason why they have different packages based on your pipe output. Netflix and content providers obviously majorly depend on ISPs for the success of their undertaking, and so I feel that it is good business practice for Netflix to incentivise ISPs to enable them upgrade their services. And that they should probably do that especially in geographies where they have high subscriptions and not just in the US, and to be proactive about it. This way everyone stays in business...
On Sat, 9 Oct 2021 at 09:53, Ali Hussein via KICTANet < kictanet@lists.kictanet.or.ke> wrote:
@Mwendwa Kivuva <kivuva@kictanet.or.ke> and all
I think ISPs are not being realistic. On one hand they squeeze us on 'fair usage' on the other hand they are squeezing content providers for 'over using' their pipes. If content creation is so lucrative why not get into it?
Let me remind everyone the principles of Net Neutrality -
*Net neutrality is the concept that states that organizations, such as Internet service providers, should treat all data on the internet equally. It promotes a free and open internet, where users can access content without restriction, provided the content does not violate any laws.*
If we allow this loop hole you suggest where does it end? Let's take a look at our local scenario in Kenya.
Safaricom is already in the content business. If we allow this liberal interpretation of Net Neutrality it won't be long before they demand gatekeeping charges from Viusasa and other local content providers...Which will create a clear conflict of interest.
Let's be careful. I have ALWAYS advocated for a clear Policy and Regulatory interpretation of Net Neutrality Rules in this country. We are yet to see any. MOICT and CA wako wapi?
Regards
*Ali Hussein*
Fintech | Digital Transformation
Tel: +254 713 601113
Twitter: @AliHKassim
Skype: abu-jomo
LinkedIn: http://ke.linkedin.com/in/alihkassim <http://ke.linkedin.com/in/alihkassim>
Any information of a personal nature expressed in this email are purely mine and do not necessarily reflect the official positions of the organizations that I work with.
On Fri, Oct 8, 2021 at 1:25 PM Mwendwa Kivuva via KICTANet < kictanet@lists.kictanet.or.ke> wrote:
Interesting angle Washington. It is indeed a chicken and egg situation.
As a network engineer, you know the implication of the international transit data on the cost of running an ISP. Profitability of an ISP is based on the assumption that on average, the users will not consume more than fair quota, and if they do, other users using limited services but paying the same amount per package will compensate and balance out the cost, leaving some margin for profitability. If streaming services squeeze out this advantage from ISPs, which is very easy because you just leave the service running, and it consumes all bandwidth, what recourse does ISPs have? Increase the cost to consumers? Share the burden with commercial content providers? Degrade service offered by content providers? Where should the balance be?
On Fri, 8 Oct 2021, 12:51 Odhiambo Washington via KICTANet, < kictanet@lists.kictanet.or.ke> wrote:
On Fri, Oct 8, 2021 at 12:38 PM Mwendwa Kivuva via KICTANet < kictanet@lists.kictanet.or.ke> wrote:
> In the United States, Netflix has been paying a fee to broadband > provider Comcast Corp for faster streaming speeds. > > South Korea's ISP SK Broadband has sued Netflix to pay for costs > from increased network traffic and maintenance work because of a surge of > viewers to the U.S. firm's content. > Seoul court said Netflix should "reasonably" give something in > return to the internet service provider for network usage, and multiple > South Korean lawmakers have spoken out against content providers who do not > pay for network usage despite generating explosive traffic. > > other content providers such as Amazon, Apple and Facebook are > paying SK Broadband for usage of the network. > > Should content providers compensate network providers for increased > traffic to their network? Is this a net neutrality issue where all content > should be treated equally?se or personalize, respect privacy, do not spam, > do not market your wares or qualifications. >
How is my usage of my services I am paying my ISP for being interpreted as "usage by my content provider"? Is this the chicken-and-egg situation I have been hearing about? I am already paying my ISP. If I didn't, they'd not even see the traffic to Netflix, YT, etc.
Content providers compensating network providers for increased traffic to their network seems like stealing for me. The content providers are not using the ISP network. It's the client who pays for the link who does. Do ISPs want to give FREE connections to me so that I can use Netflix, YT, HBOMax and have these content providers pay them for my own traffic?
-- Best regards, Odhiambo WASHINGTON, Nairobi,KE +254 7 3200 0004/+254 7 2274 3223 "Oh, the cruft.", egrep -v '^$|^.*#' :-) _______________________________________________ KICTANet mailing list KICTANet@lists.kictanet.or.ke https://lists.kictanet.or.ke/mailman/listinfo/kictanet Twitter: http://twitter.com/kictanet Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/KICTANet/
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KICTANetiquette : Adhere to the same standards of acceptable behaviors online that you follow in real life: respect people's times and bandwidth, share knowledge, don't flame or abuse or personalize, respect privacy, do not spam, do not market your wares or qualifications.
KICTANet - The Power of Communities, is Kenya's premier ICT policy engagement platform.
_______________________________________________ KICTANet mailing list KICTANet@lists.kictanet.or.ke https://lists.kictanet.or.ke/mailman/listinfo/kictanet Twitter: http://twitter.com/kictanet Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/KICTANet/
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KICTANetiquette : Adhere to the same standards of acceptable behaviors online that you follow in real life: respect people's times and bandwidth, share knowledge, don't flame or abuse or personalize, respect privacy, do not spam, do not market your wares or qualifications.
KICTANet - The Power of Communities, is Kenya's premier ICT policy engagement platform.
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KICTANetiquette : Adhere to the same standards of acceptable behaviors online that you follow in real life: respect people's times and bandwidth, share knowledge, don't flame or abuse or personalize, respect privacy, do not spam, do not market your wares or qualifications.
KICTANet - The Power of Communities, is Kenya's premier ICT policy engagement platform.
-- *Dream and Your Dreams Will Fall Short <kathymwai@gmail.com>...*
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KICTANetiquette : Adhere to the same standards of acceptable behaviors online that you follow in real life: respect people's times and bandwidth, share knowledge, don't flame or abuse or personalize, respect privacy, do not spam, do not market your wares or qualifications.
KICTANet - The Power of Communities, is Kenya's premier ICT policy engagement platform.
-- Best regards, Odhiambo WASHINGTON, Nairobi,KE +254 7 3200 0004/+254 7 2274 3223 "Oh, the cruft.", egrep -v '^$|^.*#' :-)
-- *Dream and Your Dreams Will Fall Short <kathymwai@gmail.com>...*
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KICTANetiquette : Adhere to the same standards of acceptable behaviors online that you follow in real life: respect people's times and bandwidth, share knowledge, don't flame or abuse or personalize, respect privacy, do not spam, do not market your wares or qualifications.
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-- Josiah Mugambi
On Sat, 9 Oct 2021 at 09:48, Ali Hussein <ali@hussein.me.ke> wrote:
@Mwendwa Kivuva and all
I think ISPs are not being realistic. On one hand they squeeze us on 'fair usage' on the other hand they are squeezing content providers for 'over using' their pipes. If content creation is so lucrative why not get into it?
Let me remind everyone the principles of Net Neutrality -
Net neutrality is the concept that states that organizations, such as Internet service providers, should treat all data on the internet equally. It promotes a free and open internet, where users can access content without restriction, provided the content does not violate any laws.
If we allow this loop hole you suggest where does it end? Let's take a look at our local scenario in Kenya.
I am actually not suggesting anything. I am bringing the different scenarios that ISPs and content providers face in their business models. Kathy and Josiah have talked about some of the strategies employed ... CDN and mirroring being the most popular. By the way, big content providers have know of this problem (Orange Telecom had asked content providers to pay network usage fees sometimes back), and they have taken measures to adress it. One way is by paying ISPs incentives, and having local caches. So the problem is certainly there and both players understand it. Another strategy ISPs elsewhere have used is to have diferent pricing packages depending on the origin of the content. So for example, an ISP has a cheaper internet package for local content with a cap for international bandwidth, and a more expensive internet package for international bandwidth. Gaming which is big business in elsewhere uses such a strategy. This of course brings another problem of balkanizing the internet. ______________________ Mwendwa Kivuva, Nairobi, Kenya https://www.linkedin.com/in/mwendwa-kivuva
Colleagues, Optimal usage of bandwidth, just like roads needs to be well managed. Streaming services is just one of the services that runs on a network which if not managed can lead to inefficiencies which translate into support cases and costs. The ISP bears this costs, end users will always attribute the problem to the ISP as such i see no issue with streaming services paying for increased traffic, they have more demands. Best Regards On Tue, 12 Oct 2021, 1:01 pm Mwendwa Kivuva via KICTANet, < kictanet@lists.kictanet.or.ke> wrote:
On Sat, 9 Oct 2021 at 09:48, Ali Hussein <ali@hussein.me.ke> wrote:
@Mwendwa Kivuva and all
I think ISPs are not being realistic. On one hand they squeeze us on
'fair usage' on the other hand they are squeezing content providers for 'over using' their pipes. If content creation is so lucrative why not get into it?
Let me remind everyone the principles of Net Neutrality -
Net neutrality is the concept that states that organizations, such as
Internet service providers, should treat all data on the internet equally. It promotes a free and open internet, where users can access content without restriction, provided the content does not violate any laws.
If we allow this loop hole you suggest where does it end? Let's take a
look at our local scenario in Kenya.
I am actually not suggesting anything. I am bringing the different scenarios that ISPs and content providers face in their business models. Kathy and Josiah have talked about some of the strategies employed ... CDN and mirroring being the most popular.
By the way, big content providers have know of this problem (Orange Telecom had asked content providers to pay network usage fees sometimes back), and they have taken measures to adress it. One way is by paying ISPs incentives, and having local caches. So the problem is certainly there and both players understand it.
Another strategy ISPs elsewhere have used is to have diferent pricing packages depending on the origin of the content. So for example, an ISP has a cheaper internet package for local content with a cap for international bandwidth, and a more expensive internet package for international bandwidth. Gaming which is big business in elsewhere uses such a strategy. This of course brings another problem of balkanizing the internet.
______________________ Mwendwa Kivuva, Nairobi, Kenya https://www.linkedin.com/in/mwendwa-kivuva
_______________________________________________ KICTANet mailing list KICTANet@lists.kictanet.or.ke https://lists.kictanet.or.ke/mailman/listinfo/kictanet Twitter: http://twitter.com/kictanet Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/KICTANet/
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KICTANetiquette : Adhere to the same standards of acceptable behaviors online that you follow in real life: respect people's times and bandwidth, share knowledge, don't flame or abuse or personalize, respect privacy, do not spam, do not market your wares or qualifications.
KICTANet - The Power of Communities, is Kenya's premier ICT policy engagement platform.
participants (7)
-
Alex Watila -
Ali Hussein -
Barrack Otieno -
Josiah Mugambi -
Kathy Mwai -
Mwendwa Kivuva -
Odhiambo Washington