New subject: Live debate on the ICT bill?

18 Dec 2008

      Might we be making a step forward....

I gather all TV stations shall televise the Live Debate on the
Communications Bill tonight from 9:30pm

The idea is to have Paul Muite, David Makali face off with PS Ndemo,
Hon. Poghisio.

Maybe we'll reach a middle ground tonight...instead of a trying to
identify a "winner". There should be a point when we give an
take...and maybe, tonight is the night ;-)

WM

On 12/17/08, Gakuru Alex <alexgakuru.lists@gmail.com> wrote:
...
Hi Gilda,
On Wed, Dec 17, 2008 at 8:49 AM, Gilda Odera <godera@skyweb.co.ke> wrote:
...
My greatest concern is that in all this back and forth accusations, the
baby will well be thrown with the water.
...
Given that the ICT industry is in dire need of the electronic transaction
...
and data protection legal frameworks, amongst many other things in
the proposed bill, why can't the contentious media issues be removed for
further discussion so that other things can continue? The ICT industry has
waited too long for this Bill. It was lumped with the media acts and now
there is too much at stake. Is it too much to ask the Government to remove
the contentious media issues from the Bill so the industry does not lose
more time on this?How will those thousands of jobs be created if there is
no
agreement on the Bill. And how will media operate if the Bill is passed
with
such contentious issues?
I feel you.
...
Can government meet industry players halfway by removing the contentious
issues and letting the Bill be assented to without these issues so both
industries do not suffer and delays please. It has to be a give and take.
...
From other discussants contributions, it appears that if the (Executive arm
of) government did this it'd be flouting due legislative process. i.e.
breaking the law. I stand to be corrected.
Happy Holidays
...
----- Original Message -----
*From:* Mike Theuri <mike.theuri@gmail.com>
*To:* Gilda Odera <godera@skyweb.co.ke>
*Cc:* KICTAnet ICT Policy Discussions <kictanet@lists.kictanet.or.ke>
*Sent:* Tuesday, December 16, 2008 12:47 PM
*Subject:* Re: [kictanet] [ke-internetusers]
Kenyacommunications(amendment)Bill: Is media overacting?
Brian,
I hope that the media and other interested parties have taken a cue from
the recent happenings and will now take time to study and understand the
bill. Hopefully the media's petition via the PM was concrete and included
alternative workable proposals. If it did not, the President and anyone
else
involved in taking appropriate action will not have much to work with.
I agree that K24 should be commended for demonstrating professionalism and
leadership. A debate cannot be productive if opposite sides do not engage
freely and openly, neither can it be helpful if either party is not fully
informed so as to understand where the other side is coming from. For this
reason the media would do well to understand the bill not for the famous
clause but for its provisions and work from that standpoint.
It can also be hoped that all involved will take away valuable lessons on
the need to be proactive in the legislative process.
On Tue, Dec 16, 2008 at 1:33 AM, Brian Longwe <blongwe@gmail.com> wrote:
...
Mike,
I could not agree with you more. What we are witnessing is rabid calls
for
deletion of a legal clause that has been in existence since 1998, and
isn't
even part of the proposed amendments - without a proposed alternative.
It is abundantly clear that neither the media practitioners, neither the
civil society pundits or politicos that are baying in the streets have
really taken time to read through any of this legislation, nor consider
suitable alternatives.
I personally think that this episode will serve as a lesson for many -
knee-jerk, reactionary statements that are based on speculation and
hyperbole can only lead to confusion and eventually embarassment.
I give a thumbs up to the likes of K24 who have taken a very neutral
stand
and chosen to air both sides of the story and work more towards
enlightenment than further fuel the outright lies and misrepresentation
that
our airwaves have been awash with over the past few days.
Brian
On Tue, Dec 16, 2008 at 10:06 AM, Mike Theuri
<mike.theuri@gmail.com>wrote:
...
Crystal,
Actually, the right to assemble, discuss in public and protest was never
taken away by the Patriot act. Numerous protests and marches have taken
place over the Iraq war, Immigration etc since then and have been
widely covered. Indeed if one was pay a visit to the environs of the
White
house, one will find no shortage of protesters demonstrating any number
of
issues from Guantanamo by dressing in orange jump suits and locking
themselves in cages, Darfur,  Tibetans acting out torture methods, to
calling the current US administration fascist or for its removal as long
as
they do not interfere with others freedoms by being disruptive. The
Patriot Act still stands to date, however a few of its provisions
have sunset and are no longer in law thanks to a refined legislative
process
that pays attention to constituents views.
The separation of powers principle is best exemplified in the US. The
Judiciary's independence is one that should be emulated in Kenya. The
fact
that unconstitutional laws can be challenged and struck down by the
courts
is itself a protection against the infringement of citizen and
non-citizens
rights. Take for instance cases such as that of Bin Laden's driver
(Hamdan
v. Rumsfeld) or the 5 Algerian Guantanamo detainees where the US
Government did not win in both cases. The fact that members of congress
have
signaled their intent to restore habeus corpus rights to detainees is in
itself an indication of standing up for principle even when popular
opinion
may not agree with some principles of basic human rights. There is a lot
of
work and reform to be done locally, in ensuring that the different arms
of
Government can be as independent and those who are aggrieved by the
legislature at least have an avenue of resort in which they can place
their
confidence to fairly strike down what could be considered
unconstitutional.
At the same time excessive freedom and its abuse is dangerous, were
Kenya
the US, elements of the media who engaged in deliberate acts at the
beginning of the year would be in court today being held civilly liable
for
their role in inciting violence that led to the deaths of civilians.
Media
elements that act recklessly and carry inappropriate content would be
paying
hefty fines that could easily bankrupt them if they chose not change
their
ways. Yet we find that even with such regulations, the US media has a
level
of freedom that is not quite paralleled around the world. I believe it
is
clear that the contentious section 88 has always been present, it is not
new, and thus the Government cannot possibly be trying to now use it to
suppress the people's voices. As with every system there need to be
checks
and balances, the media has called for deletion, an approach that faces
legal hurdles, but the media has not been seen to come up with clear cut
alternatives such as amendments that could make it very difficult if not
impossible for section 88 to be abused, these are the checks the media
could
be lobbying for placement in the memorandum. The media fraternity might
not
be law makers but they could certainly spend amounts such as the Ksh. 2m
spent on advertising a prayer meeting to explain in layman terms what
*alternatives* as protections they want to be included in the bill. One
way
or another there will be laws that deal with the media, a reality the
media
should accept and work towards defining rather than wishing the
inevitable
goes away.
On Mon, Dec 15, 2008 at 11:23 AM, Crystal Watley <
crystal@voicesofafrica.org> wrote:
...
The Patriot Act was established in the United States in light of
terrorist activities and the Iraqi war to silence any public discussion
or
protest. The US government was able to make a list of organizations and
people they considered to be "terrorists" and to use a variety of means
powers to contain those they believed to be "dangerous to US
interests".
This Act was used to arrest many peaceful protesters, environmental
activists, and to detain Muslims without trial for extended period of
time
at places like Guantanamo Bay. Every democratic government must respect
human rights. The Patriot Act was a time bound piece of legislature and
it
has thus lapsed. Democratic governments should not attempt to use
legislation to suppress the voice of the people. Kenya is not the only
country where a minority of the population with vested interests have
attempted and have often succeeded to dominate and control the
population.
We should learn from the lessons of history, rather than repeat the
same
mistakes.
Crystal
On Mon, Dec 15, 2008 at 7:35 PM, <bitange@jambo.co.ke> wrote:
...
David,
I thought this UK law would make our section 88 look like an evening
game
of soccer.  From the Independent.
23 November 2003
Sweeping measures to deal with terrorist attacks and other emergencies
are
to be announced this week, giving the Government power to over-ride
civil
liberties in times of crisis, and evacuate threatened areas, restrict
people's movements and confiscate property.
The Civil Contingencies Bill, which covers every kind of disaster from
terrorism to the weather, will be the biggest shake-up of emergency
laws
since the early part of the last century, replacing legislation which
saw
the UK through a world war and the IRA bombing campaign.
Some of the proposals in the draft version of the Bill, drawn up in
the
summer, have alarmed civil rights activists, notably a clause that
gives
the Government the power to suspend parts or all of the Human Rights
Act
without a vote by MPs.
Once an emergency has been proclaimed by the Queen, the Government can
order the destruction of property, order people to evacuate an area or
ban
them from travelling, and "prohibit assemblies of specified kinds" and
"other specified activities".
If these rules had been in force during the Iraq war, critics say,
they
could have been used to to ban street demonstrations, making anyone
who
travelled to protest guilty of a criminal offence. After a major
terrorist
attack, forums made up of local councils, the emergency services and
utility companies would be put in charge of trying to get shattered
communities back together.
Ndemo.
> Ok. Thanks.
>
> Sent from my BlackBerry(R) wireless device
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: bitange@jambo.co.ke
>
> Date: Mon, 15 Dec 2008 19:12:04
> To: <dmakali@yahoo.com>
> Cc: <bitange@jambo.co.ke>; KICTAnet ICT Policy
> Discussions<kictanet@lists.kictanet.or.ke>
> Subject: Re: [kictanet] [ke-internetusers] Kenya
>      communications(amendment)Bill: Is media overacting?
>
>
> David,
> There was a hitch.  It will be in all papers tomorrow and will
> ensure
you
> get the soft copy.
>
>
> Ndemo.
>
>
>
>>
>> I have treid to find the amended bill online with no success; was
>> it
>> uploaded as promised? someone please?
>> david
>>
>>
>> _______________
>>
>> "If my doctor told me I had only six minutes to live,
>> I wouldn't brood. I'd type a little faster."
>> â€" Isaac Asimo, Columbian Author and Scientist
>> _______________
>>
>> PO Box 3234
>> 00200 Nairobi, Kenya
>> cell: +254 722 517 540
>>
>>
>> --- On Mon, 12/15/08, bitange@jambo.co.ke <bitange@jambo.co.ke>
wrote:
>>
>>> From: bitange@jambo.co.ke <bitange@jambo.co.ke>
>>> Subject: Re: [kictanet] [ke-internetusers] Kenya
>>> communications(amendment)Bill: Is media overacting?
>>> To: dmakali@yahoo.com
>>> Cc: "KICTAnet ICT Policy Discussions" <
kictanet@lists.kictanet.or.ke>
>>> Date: Monday, December 15, 2008, 1:04 AM
>>> Mike,
>>> Thank you for your objective views.  You know very well
>>> that there are
>>> thousands of youth out there who have patiently waited for
>>> this bill to
>>> allow them trade on-line.  Now Media calls theirs.
>>>
>>> The outcomes of the Kriegler and Waki would hopefully deal
>>> with political
>>> impunity.  Who will deal with media impunity?  In my view
>>> we must push
>>> this Bill to ensure that electronic media does not continue
>>> to corrupt our
>>> children's minds.
>>>
>>> Ndemo.
>>>
>>>
>>> > Dr. Ndemo,
>>> >
>>> > I hope that the media note that they are on the wrong
>>> path and move to
>>> > change their approach. In hindsight they might realize
>>> that the issues at
>>> > hand could have been tackled differently.The
>>> media's most recent actions
>>> > only make it more difficult to resolve the very same
>>> issues they are
>>> > protesting.
>>> >
>>> > The Nation's editorial perhaps represents the
>>> divergence in views between
>>> > the media owners, their supporters and responsible
>>> journalists who may
>>> > have
>>> > seen that things are steering in a dangerous
>>> direction. As the matter
>>> > drags
>>> > on, various elements will try to take advantage and
>>> jump onto the
>>> > bandwagon
>>> > to further certain agendas. It is this catalyst that
>>> is worrisome, as
>>> > there
>>> > is the possibility that just as the media issue has
>>> somehow been tied to
>>> > economic issues, the media issue could easily be
>>> misused by those who have
>>> > little to do with the media.
>>> >
>>> > The country has many volatile problems that should not
>>> be exploited, some
>>> > of
>>> > those jumping onto the media bandwagon may be seeking
>>> to detract from
>>> > matters facing them, others have personal agendas in
>>> mind that can only
>>> > progress if they are disguised as media and economic
>>> issues. The media
>>> > hopefully is looking at these issues in a responsible
>>> manner, will
>>> > exercise
>>> > diplomacy and engage the Government in a civil way as
>>> the best way to
>>> > resolve the impasse. There are many Kenyans suffering
>>> today from matters
>>> > not
>>> > within their control, it is a dangerous thing for the
>>> media to act in a
>>> > way
>>> > that could easily stir these masses to non-civil
>>> action as measures are
>>> > being taken to alleviate these problems. The media has
>>> a corporate
>>> > responsibility in ensuring that it exhausts all civil
>>> means of ensuring
>>> > the
>>> > matters are resolved.
>>> >
>>> > It is encouraging to know that the Government is open
>>> for discussion, but
>>> > there is only so much that the Government can do on
>>> legislative matters.
>>> > The
>>> > Government can draft, prepare and adjust laws but it
>>> cannot pass the same
>>> > in
>>> > parliament. The media must do more on its own in
>>> approaching not just key
>>> > leaders but ultimately the legislators who actually
>>> vote to pass the same
>>> > laws.
>>> >
>>> >
>>> > On Sun, Dec 14, 2008 at 5:11 PM,
>>> <bitange@jambo.co.ke> wrote:
>>> >
>>> >> Thanks Theuri,
>>> >> Since Government is open for discussion, diplomacy
>>> would yield better
>>> >> results.  I have seen their action plan which by
>>> the way violates cck
>>> >> licence agreement it is not the best rout to take.
>>>  Having spent all
>>> >> weekend
>>> >> using public resources (frequencies) to propagate
>>> violence, they should
>>> >> at
>>> >> least wait to hear from cck.
>>> >>
>>> >> If you read today's Nation editorial on how to
>>> end impunity including
>>> >> media
>>> >> impunity you wonder if they are the same people
>>> inciting the public to
>>> >> violence.
>>> >>
>>> >> Ndemo
>>> >> Sent from my BlackBerry(R)
>>> >>
>>> >> -----Original Message-----
>>> >> From: "Mike Theuri"
>>> <mike.theuri@gmail.com>
>>> >>
>>> >> Date: Sun, 14 Dec 2008 13:19:01
>>> >> To: <bitange@jambo.co.ke>
>>> >> Cc: KICTAnet ICT Policy
>>> Discussions<kictanet@lists.kictanet.or.ke>
>>> >> Subject: Re: [kictanet] [ke-internetusers] Kenya
>>> communications
>>> >>        (amendment)Bill: Is media overacting?
>>> >>
>>> >>
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Re: [kictanet] [ke-internetusers] Kenya communications (amendment) Bill: Is media overacting?

Wainaina Mungai

John Walubengo

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