Well freedom goes hand in hand with taking responsibility for what you write. Ie whoever you are writing about can and definately has access to the same freedom. Which could mean suing you. From a legal standpoint? It will be interesting to watch since 'fun' issues can come up, like where is the blog hosted? Domain registered? If he deletes it is the hosting platform obliged by any kenyan legal apparatus to re-produce that blog post for evidence? In other words this guy can show them the finger, chuckle and write another one making fun of their attempt to sue him.... Does the author blog in their 'true' name? See one reason it helps to keep content local is for law enforcement...definately a good one to watch...If there is a lawyer here it would be nice to have a debate around this. Gitau Sent from my iPad On Oct 15, 2011, at 7:16 AM, Solomon Mbũrũ Kamau <solo.mburu@gmail.com> wrote:

This is going t be interesting. I won't comment lest I bee in contempt of court.

On 15/10/2011, Grace Mutung'u (Bomu) <nmutungu@gmail.com> wrote:

...

Dear all, the suit between Muite & Others versus Moses Kuria, which I understand is proceeding to court, should be a very interesting one to watch. Hopefully it shall give some insights on content control vs freedom of expression. See below.

---------- Forwarded message ---------- From: Ngunjiri <ngunjiri@kikuyusforchange.com> Date: Mon, 10 Oct 2011 16:05:07 +0300 Subject: {K4c} Defamatory Blog Publication by Moses Kuria & Demand For Apology To: KC4 <kikuyusforchange@googlegroups.com>

This will most probably interest some of us, and help all of us be careful about what we write on our blogs. --- Ngunjiri

[image: Issa & Co Advocates]

Our Ref: M/058/001/L****

****

Tuesday, October 4, 2011****

****

Moses Kuria****

P. O. Box 1838-00200

‘*Advance copy by email*’****

*NAIROBI*****

****

Dear Sir,****

****

*RE: DEFAMATORY PUBLICATION ***** ------------------------------

We have been instructed by our clients, Wambugu Ngunjiri, Paul Muite, Ndung’u Wainaina, Maina Kiai and Hassan Omar.****

****

Our instructions are that you published in your widely read blog the following words of and concerning our clients.****

****

*‘I have said Ocampo has no case. All he has are fake witnesses coached by Hassan Omar, Wambugu Ngunjiri, Paul Muite, Ndungu Wainaina, Njonjo Mue and Maina Kiai.’*****

****

Your insinuations are unfounded and baseless and our clients’ professional respective standings, characters and reputations have been severely tarnished by your publication.****

****

Our instructions are to demand a retraction, an apology and an admission of liability on your part for the publication of the defamatory words. This we hereby do. We shall address the issue of the damages payable to our clients upon receipt of your apology and admission.****

****

*NOTE* that if you do not publish an apology and retraction on your blog within the next *Seven (7) Days* of the receipt of this letter we shall proceed to the law for redress at your risk as to costs. ****

****

Yours faithfully,****

*ISSA & COMPANY ADVOCATES*****

****

****

*MANSUR M. ISSA*****

****

cc. Clients****

****

*Issa & Co Advocates* <info@issadvocates.co.ke>**** ------------------------------

5th Floor, City House, Wabera Street P.O. Box *24210 - 00100*, Nairobi, Kenya *ph*: *+ 254 20 340 150 · * *fx*: *+ 254 20 340 151* *em*: *info@issadvocates.co.ke · ***** ------------------------------

*CONFIDENTIALITY NOTICE:* This email and any attachments may contain information that is confidential, legally privileged and protected by law. Access by the intended recipient is authorized. Any liability (in negligence or otherwise) arising from any third party acting, or refraining from acting, or any information contained in this email is hereby excluded. If you are not the intended recipient, please notify the sender immediatelyand do not disclose the contents to any other person, use it for any purpose or store or copy the information in any medium.****

-- --- Fear makes men act even against their own interests- changing them from men of reason to blubbering fools.

-- Grace L.N. Mutung'u (Bomu) Kenya Skype: gracebomu Twitter: GraceMutung'u (Bomu)

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KICTANetiquette : Adhere to the same standards of acceptable behaviors online that you follow in real life: respect people's times and bandwidth, share knowledge, don't flame or abuse or personalize, respect privacy, do not spam, do not market your wares or qualifications.

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The Kenya ICT Action Network (KICTANet) is a multi-stakeholder platform for people and institutions interested and involved in ICT policy and regulation. The network aims to act as a catalyst for reform in the ICT sector in support of the national aim of ICT enabled growth and development.

KICTANetiquette : Adhere to the same standards of acceptable behaviors online that you follow in real life: respect people's times and bandwidth, share knowledge, don't flame or abuse or personalize, respect privacy, do not spam, do not market your wares or qualifications.

If a facebook wall, then the guy can deactivate the account & register a new one with a pseudo. I'm just keen on any development that will arise out of this lawsuit. On 15/10/2011, Grace Mutung'u (Bomu) <nmutungu@gmail.com> wrote:

BTW the said "blog" was his FaceBook wall.....other than that the matter stems from political underpinnings because the parties belong to different divides and in the past, they have had heated debates, in among other fora , *The Star. *A very wait and see case...

2011/10/15 John Gitau <jgitau@gmail.com>

...

Well freedom goes hand in hand with taking responsibility for what you write. Ie whoever you are writing about can and definately has access to the same freedom. Which could mean suing you.

From a legal standpoint? It will be interesting to watch since 'fun' issues can come up, like where is the blog hosted? Domain registered? If he deletes it is the hosting platform obliged by any kenyan legal apparatus to re-produce that blog post for evidence? In other words this guy can show them the finger, chuckle and write another one making fun of their attempt to sue him.... Does the author blog in their 'true' name?

See one reason it helps to keep content local is for law enforcement...definately a good one to watch...If there is a lawyer here it would be nice to have a debate around this.

Gitau

Sent from my iPad

On Oct 15, 2011, at 7:16 AM, Solomon Mbũrũ Kamau <solo.mburu@gmail.com> wrote:

...

This is going t be interesting. I won't comment lest I bee in contempt of court.

...

Dear all, the suit between Muite & Others versus Moses Kuria, which I understand is proceeding to court, should be a very interesting one to watch. Hopefully it shall give some insights on content control vs freedom of expression. See below.

---------- Forwarded message ---------- From: Ngunjiri <ngunjiri@kikuyusforchange.com> Date: Mon, 10 Oct 2011 16:05:07 +0300 Subject: {K4c} Defamatory Blog Publication by Moses Kuria & Demand For Apology To: KC4 <kikuyusforchange@googlegroups.com>

This will most probably interest some of us, and help all of us be careful about what we write on our blogs. --- Ngunjiri

[image: Issa & Co Advocates]

Our Ref: M/058/001/L****

****

Tuesday, October 4, 2011****

****

Moses Kuria****

P. O. Box 1838-00200

‘*Advance copy by email*’****

*NAIROBI*****

****

Dear Sir,****

****

*RE: DEFAMATORY PUBLICATION ***** ------------------------------

We have been instructed by our clients, Wambugu Ngunjiri, Paul Muite, Ndung’u Wainaina, Maina Kiai and Hassan Omar.****

****

Our instructions are that you published in your widely read blog the following words of and concerning our clients.****

****

*‘I have said Ocampo has no case. All he has are fake witnesses coached by Hassan Omar, Wambugu Ngunjiri, Paul Muite, Ndungu Wainaina, Njonjo Mue and Maina Kiai.’*****

****

Your insinuations are unfounded and baseless and our clients’

On 15/10/2011, Grace Mutung'u (Bomu) <nmutungu@gmail.com> wrote: professional

...

respective standings, characters and reputations have been severely tarnished by your publication.****

****

Our instructions are to demand a retraction, an apology and an admission of liability on your part for the publication of the defamatory words. This we hereby do. We shall address the issue of the damages payable to our clients upon receipt of your apology and admission.****

****

*NOTE* that if you do not publish an apology and retraction on your blog within the next *Seven (7) Days* of the receipt of this letter we shall proceed to the law for redress at your risk as to costs. ****

****

Yours faithfully,****

*ISSA & COMPANY ADVOCATES*****

****

****

*MANSUR M. ISSA*****

****

cc. Clients****

****

*Issa & Co Advocates* <info@issadvocates.co.ke>**** ------------------------------

5th Floor, City House, Wabera Street P.O. Box *24210 - 00100*, Nairobi, Kenya *ph*: *+ 254 20 340 150 · * *fx*: *+ 254 20 340 151* *em*: *info@issadvocates.co.ke · ***** ------------------------------

*CONFIDENTIALITY NOTICE:* This email and any attachments may contain information that is confidential, legally privileged and protected by law. Access by the intended recipient is authorized. Any liability (in negligence or otherwise) arising from any third party acting, or refraining from acting, or any information contained in this email is hereby excluded. If you are not the intended recipient, please notify the sender immediatelyand do not disclose the contents to any other person, use it for any purpose or store or copy the information in any medium.****

-- --- Fear makes men act even against their own interests- changing them from men of reason to blubbering fools.

-- Grace L.N. Mutung'u (Bomu) Kenya Skype: gracebomu Twitter: GraceMutung'u (Bomu)

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for

...

people and institutions interested and involved in ICT policy and regulation. The network aims to act as a catalyst for reform in the ICT sector in support of the national aim of ICT enabled growth and development.

KICTANetiquette : Adhere to the same standards of acceptable behaviors online that you follow in real life: respect people's times and bandwidth, share knowledge, don't flame or abuse or personalize, respect privacy, do not spam, do not market your wares or qualifications.

_______________________________________________ kictanet mailing list kictanet@lists.kictanet.or.ke http://lists.kictanet.or.ke/mailman/listinfo/kictanet

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The Kenya ICT Action Network (KICTANet) is a multi-stakeholder platform for people and institutions interested and involved in ICT policy and regulation. The network aims to act as a catalyst for reform in the ICT sector in support of the national aim of ICT enabled growth and development.

KICTANetiquette : Adhere to the same standards of acceptable behaviors online that you follow in real life: respect people's times and bandwidth, share knowledge, don't flame or abuse or personalize, respect privacy, do not spam, do not market your wares or qualifications.

_______________________________________________ kictanet mailing list kictanet@lists.kictanet.or.ke http://lists.kictanet.or.ke/mailman/listinfo/kictanet

Unsubscribe or change your options at http://lists.kictanet.or.ke/mailman/options/kictanet/nmutungu%40gmail.com

The Kenya ICT Action Network (KICTANet) is a multi-stakeholder platform for people and institutions interested and involved in ICT policy and regulation. The network aims to act as a catalyst for reform in the ICT sector in support of the national aim of ICT enabled growth and development.

KICTANetiquette : Adhere to the same standards of acceptable behaviors online that you follow in real life: respect people's times and bandwidth, share knowledge, don't flame or abuse or personalize, respect privacy, do not spam, do not market your wares or qualifications.

-- Grace L.N. Mutung'u (Bomu) Kenya Skype: gracebomu Twitter: GraceMutung'u (Bomu)

+1. On Oct 15, 2011 1:54 PM, "muriuki mureithi" < mureithi@summitstrategies.co.ke> wrote:

Hi

Job Description

This position is based in Zurich, Switzerland.

The area: Engineering, Software Engineering

Google's software engineers develop the next-generation technologies for which we've become world-renowned. In addition to revolutionising search technology, we use our world-class programming skills to innovate in a number of other areas as well. Our projects include working on advanced information-retrieval algorithms, massive scalability and storage solutions, and large-scale applications that enrich the user experience. We also work extensively on networking systems, advertising systems and complex transaction systems in consumer applications.

For more information visit http://www.linkedin.com/jobs?viewJob&jobId=1996592&goback=.nmp_ cheers

Muriuki Mureithi Consultant Member Society of Telecommunications Consultants summit strategies ltd , www.summitstrategies.co.ke

People travel to wonder at the height of the mountains, at the huge waves of the seas, at the long course of the rivers, at the vast compass of the ocean, at the circular motion of the stars, and yet they pass by themselves without wondering - st Augustine

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The Kenya ICT Action Network (KICTANet) is a multi-stakeholder platform for people and institutions interested and involved in ICT policy and regulation. The network aims to act as a catalyst for reform in the ICT sector in support of the national aim of ICT enabled growth and development.

KICTANetiquette : Adhere to the same standards of acceptable behaviors online that you follow in real life: respect people's times and bandwidth, share knowledge, don't flame or abuse or personalize, respect privacy, do not spam, do not market your wares or qualifications.

Dear All, Please see a decision by the Supreme Court in Canada https://mail.article19.org/owa/redir.aspx?C=66ad6ca5b77449d39441bc4f501deed2&URL=http%3a%2f%2fwww.cbc.ca%2fnews%2fpolitics%2fstory%2f2011%2f10%2f19%2fpol-scoc-hyperlink.html%3fcmp%3drss HENRY O. MAINA DIRECTOR ARTICLE 19 KENYA/EASTERN AFRICA P O BOX 2653,00100 NAIROBI TEL:+254 (20) 3862230/2 FAX:+254 (20) 3862231 EMAIL: henry@article19.org ________________________________________ From: kictanet-bounces+henry=article19.org@lists.kictanet.or.ke [kictanet-bounces+henry=article19.org@lists.kictanet.or.ke] on behalf of Solomon Mbũrũ Kamau [solo.mburu@gmail.com] Sent: 15 October 2011 10:31 AM To: Henry Maina Cc: KICTAnet ICT Policy Discussions Subject: Re: [kictanet] Fwd:Defamatory Blog Publication by Moses Kuria & Demand For Apology If a facebook wall, then the guy can deactivate the account & register a new one with a pseudo. I'm just keen on any development that will arise out of this lawsuit. On 15/10/2011, Grace Mutung'u (Bomu) <nmutungu@gmail.com> wrote:

BTW the said "blog" was his FaceBook wall.....other than that the matter stems from political underpinnings because the parties belong to different divides and in the past, they have had heated debates, in among other fora , *The Star. *A very wait and see case...

2011/10/15 John Gitau <jgitau@gmail.com>

...

Well freedom goes hand in hand with taking responsibility for what you write. Ie whoever you are writing about can and definately has access to the same freedom. Which could mean suing you.

From a legal standpoint? It will be interesting to watch since 'fun' issues can come up, like where is the blog hosted? Domain registered? If he deletes it is the hosting platform obliged by any kenyan legal apparatus to re-produce that blog post for evidence? In other words this guy can show them the finger, chuckle and write another one making fun of their attempt to sue him.... Does the author blog in their 'true' name?

See one reason it helps to keep content local is for law enforcement...definately a good one to watch...If there is a lawyer here it would be nice to have a debate around this.

Gitau

Sent from my iPad

On Oct 15, 2011, at 7:16 AM, Solomon Mbũrũ Kamau <solo.mburu@gmail.com> wrote:

...

This is going t be interesting. I won't comment lest I bee in contempt of court.

...

Dear all, the suit between Muite & Others versus Moses Kuria, which I understand is proceeding to court, should be a very interesting one to watch. Hopefully it shall give some insights on content control vs freedom of expression. See below.

---------- Forwarded message ---------- From: Ngunjiri <ngunjiri@kikuyusforchange.com> Date: Mon, 10 Oct 2011 16:05:07 +0300 Subject: {K4c} Defamatory Blog Publication by Moses Kuria & Demand For Apology To: KC4 <kikuyusforchange@googlegroups.com>

This will most probably interest some of us, and help all of us be careful about what we write on our blogs. --- Ngunjiri

[image: Issa & Co Advocates]

Our Ref: M/058/001/L****

****

Tuesday, October 4, 2011****

****

Moses Kuria****

P. O. Box 1838-00200

‘*Advance copy by email*’****

*NAIROBI*****

****

Dear Sir,****

****

*RE: DEFAMATORY PUBLICATION ***** ------------------------------

We have been instructed by our clients, Wambugu Ngunjiri, Paul Muite, Ndung’u Wainaina, Maina Kiai and Hassan Omar.****

****

Our instructions are that you published in your widely read blog the following words of and concerning our clients.****

****

*‘I have said Ocampo has no case. All he has are fake witnesses coached by Hassan Omar, Wambugu Ngunjiri, Paul Muite, Ndungu Wainaina, Njonjo Mue and Maina Kiai.’*****

****

Your insinuations are unfounded and baseless and our clients’

On 15/10/2011, Grace Mutung'u (Bomu) <nmutungu@gmail.com> wrote: professional

...

respective standings, characters and reputations have been severely tarnished by your publication.****

****

Our instructions are to demand a retraction, an apology and an admission of liability on your part for the publication of the defamatory words. This we hereby do. We shall address the issue of the damages payable to our clients upon receipt of your apology and admission.****

****

*NOTE* that if you do not publish an apology and retraction on your blog within the next *Seven (7) Days* of the receipt of this letter we shall proceed to the law for redress at your risk as to costs. ****

****

Yours faithfully,****

*ISSA & COMPANY ADVOCATES*****

****

****

*MANSUR M. ISSA*****

****

cc. Clients****

****

*Issa & Co Advocates* <info@issadvocates.co.ke>**** ------------------------------

5th Floor, City House, Wabera Street P.O. Box *24210 - 00100*, Nairobi, Kenya *ph*: *+ 254 20 340 150 · * *fx*: *+ 254 20 340 151* *em*: *info@issadvocates.co.ke · ***** ------------------------------

*CONFIDENTIALITY NOTICE:* This email and any attachments may contain information that is confidential, legally privileged and protected by law. Access by the intended recipient is authorized. Any liability (in negligence or otherwise) arising from any third party acting, or refraining from acting, or any information contained in this email is hereby excluded. If you are not the intended recipient, please notify the sender immediatelyand do not disclose the contents to any other person, use it for any purpose or store or copy the information in any medium.****

-- --- Fear makes men act even against their own interests- changing them from men of reason to blubbering fools.

-- Grace L.N. Mutung'u (Bomu) Kenya Skype: gracebomu Twitter: GraceMutung'u (Bomu)

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...

The Kenya ICT Action Network (KICTANet) is a multi-stakeholder platform

for

...

people and institutions interested and involved in ICT policy and regulation. The network aims to act as a catalyst for reform in the ICT sector in support of the national aim of ICT enabled growth and development.

KICTANetiquette : Adhere to the same standards of acceptable behaviors online that you follow in real life: respect people's times and bandwidth, share knowledge, don't flame or abuse or personalize, respect privacy, do not spam, do not market your wares or qualifications.

_______________________________________________ kictanet mailing list kictanet@lists.kictanet.or.ke http://lists.kictanet.or.ke/mailman/listinfo/kictanet

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The Kenya ICT Action Network (KICTANet) is a multi-stakeholder platform for people and institutions interested and involved in ICT policy and regulation. The network aims to act as a catalyst for reform in the ICT sector in support of the national aim of ICT enabled growth and development.

KICTANetiquette : Adhere to the same standards of acceptable behaviors online that you follow in real life: respect people's times and bandwidth, share knowledge, don't flame or abuse or personalize, respect privacy, do not spam, do not market your wares or qualifications.

_______________________________________________ kictanet mailing list kictanet@lists.kictanet.or.ke http://lists.kictanet.or.ke/mailman/listinfo/kictanet

Unsubscribe or change your options at http://lists.kictanet.or.ke/mailman/options/kictanet/nmutungu%40gmail.com

The Kenya ICT Action Network (KICTANet) is a multi-stakeholder platform for people and institutions interested and involved in ICT policy and regulation. The network aims to act as a catalyst for reform in the ICT sector in support of the national aim of ICT enabled growth and development.

KICTANetiquette : Adhere to the same standards of acceptable behaviors online that you follow in real life: respect people's times and bandwidth, share knowledge, don't flame or abuse or personalize, respect privacy, do not spam, do not market your wares or qualifications.

-- Grace L.N. Mutung'u (Bomu) Kenya Skype: gracebomu Twitter: GraceMutung'u (Bomu)

_______________________________________________ kictanet mailing list kictanet@lists.kictanet.or.ke http://lists.kictanet.or.ke/mailman/listinfo/kictanet Unsubscribe or change your options at http://lists.kictanet.or.ke/mailman/options/kictanet/henry%40article19.org The Kenya ICT Action Network (KICTANet) is a multi-stakeholder platform for people and institutions interested and involved in ICT policy and regulation. The network aims to act as a catalyst for reform in the ICT sector in support of the national aim of ICT enabled growth and development. KICTANetiquette : Adhere to the same standards of acceptable behaviors online that you follow in real life: respect people's times and bandwidth, share knowledge, don't flame or abuse or personalize, respect privacy, do not spam, do not market your wares or qualifications.

On Mon, Oct 17, 2011 at 12:15, Harry Delano <harry@comtelsys.co.ke> wrote:

Grace,

First, I'm not sure whether these terms are interchangeable. Perhaps we may need to define them first:-

*"Freedom* of expression", *"Freedom* of information" ,"Information * freedom*"; or perhaps, "*Freedom* to access information".

These well meaning liberties can be confusing at times.

If I may ask, is "Freedom of expression" the same thing as "Freedom of speech"? Anyway, what I know is that no freedom is absolute. There are always limits around each. For instance, you are guaranteed freedom of speech/expression, but not guaranteed freedom after the said speech/expression, NOT if it violates (is likely to violate) another person's rights, like hate speech? -- Best regards, Odhiambo WASHINGTON, Nairobi,KE +254733744121/+254722743223 _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ I can't hear you -- I'm using the scrambler. Please consider the environment before printing this email.

hi listers in response to harry's question 'freedom of speech' is the right to express one's thoughts and opinions without governmental restriction. 'freedom of information' which is also referred to as freedom of access to information is the right of the public to access official documents so that they may be better informed and the gvt. held accountable for their actions. 'freedom of expression' is freedom of speech,assembly or religion somtimes termed as freedom of speech. some rights are subject to limitation under article 24 of the constitution. regards kerubo On 10/17/11, Odhiambo Washington <odhiambo@gmail.com> wrote:

On Mon, Oct 17, 2011 at 12:15, Harry Delano <harry@comtelsys.co.ke> wrote:

...

Grace,

First, I'm not sure whether these terms are interchangeable. Perhaps we may need to define them first:-

*"Freedom* of expression", *"Freedom* of information" ,"Information * freedom*"; or perhaps, "*Freedom* to access information".

These well meaning liberties can be confusing at times.

If I may ask, is "Freedom of expression" the same thing as "Freedom of speech"? Anyway, what I know is that no freedom is absolute. There are always limits around each. For instance, you are guaranteed freedom of speech/expression, but not guaranteed freedom after the said speech/expression, NOT if it violates (is likely to violate) another person's rights, like hate speech?

-- Best regards, Odhiambo WASHINGTON, Nairobi,KE +254733744121/+254722743223 _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ I can't hear you -- I'm using the scrambler. Please consider the environment before printing this email.

Ooops Who is really on trial here? Regards   Robert Yawe KAY System Technologies Ltd Phoenix House, 6th Floor P O Box 55806 Nairobi, 00200 Kenya Tel: +254722511225, +254202010696 ________________________________ From: Kerubo Ombati <kaykerubo@gmail.com> To: robertyawe@yahoo.co.uk Cc: KICTAnet ICT Policy Discussions <kictanet@lists.kictanet.or.ke> Sent: Monday, 17 October 2011, 19:36 Subject: Re: [kictanet] Fwd:Defamatory Blog Publication/Freedom of Information e- discussion continued hi listers in response to harry's question 'freedom of speech' is the right to express one's thoughts and opinions without governmental restriction. 'freedom of information' which is also referred to as freedom of access to information is the right of the public to access official documents so that they may be better informed and the gvt. held accountable for their actions. 'freedom of expression' is freedom of speech,assembly or religion somtimes termed as freedom of speech. some rights are subject to limitation under article 24 of the constitution. regards kerubo On 10/17/11, Odhiambo Washington <odhiambo@gmail.com> wrote:

On Mon, Oct 17, 2011 at 12:15, Harry Delano <harry@comtelsys.co.ke> wrote:

...

  Grace,

First, I'm not sure whether these terms are interchangeable. Perhaps we may need to define them first:-

*"Freedom* of expression",  *"Freedom* of information" ,"Information * freedom*"; or perhaps, "*Freedom* to access information".

These well meaning liberties can be confusing at times.

If I may ask, is "Freedom of expression" the same thing as "Freedom of speech"? Anyway, what I know is that no freedom is absolute. There are always limits around each. For instance, you are guaranteed freedom of speech/expression, but not guaranteed freedom after the said speech/expression, NOT if it violates (is likely to violate) another person's rights, like hate speech?

-- Best regards, Odhiambo WASHINGTON, Nairobi,KE +254733744121/+254722743223 _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ I can't hear you -- I'm using the scrambler. Please consider the environment before printing this email.

_______________________________________________ kictanet mailing list kictanet@lists.kictanet.or.ke http://lists.kictanet.or.ke/mailman/listinfo/kictanet Unsubscribe or change your options at http://lists.kictanet.or.ke/mailman/options/kictanet/robertyawe%40yahoo.co.u... The Kenya ICT Action Network (KICTANet) is a multi-stakeholder platform for people and institutions interested and involved in ICT policy and regulation. The network aims to act as a catalyst for reform in the ICT sector in support of the national aim of ICT enabled growth and development. KICTANetiquette : Adhere to the same standards of acceptable behaviors online that you follow in real life: respect people's times and bandwidth, share knowledge, don't flame or abuse or personalize, respect privacy, do not spam, do not market your wares or qualifications.

Hey Grace & Kerubo, Thanks for your summary overview. I wonder aloud whether it should only be the state that maintains this monopoly over accessibility to basic information in as far as "Freedom of information" is concerned. Whereas state has the instruments it can use to either promote or curtail such freedoms, I suppose it would also be safe to say that in quite a number of instances, state might be deemed a "lame duck". How about a remote Island sequestered somewhere, about 200 miles off the shores of Lake Victoria with no basic access to communication? Would the populace there's lack thereof, of basic information access be considered an infringement on this fundamental right/liberty by the state...? Harry _____ From: kictanet-bounces+harry=comtelsys.co.ke@lists.kictanet.or.ke [mailto:kictanet-bounces+harry=comtelsys.co.ke@lists.kictanet.or.ke] On Behalf Of Grace Githaiga Sent: Tuesday, October 18, 2011 12:57 AM To: harry@comtelsys.co.ke Cc: kictanet@lists.kictanet.or.ke Subject: [kictanet] Freedom of Information laws/ e- discussion continued Thanks Harry Delano, Washington, Cleophas and Kerubo. Harry you raise a good question on what these terms mean and whether they are interchangeable. Washington, you make an important point about freedom of expression/speech not being absolute, and Cleophas affirms your point. Thanks Kerubo for the definitions. Yes, freedom of information simply means the freedom to get certain basic information held by the state, which can enable one to for example bring a case of human rights violation or any other cause. Freedom of expression can mean many things, say freedom to air your ideas, take a stand, artistic creativity--simply freedom to express how you feel. And of course as Washington and Cleophas rightly point out, all these freedoms are subject to limitations and therefore not carte blanche. In this case then: * Is there conflict between laws on freedom of information and what citizens demand/require? Lets hear it from you. Rgds Grace

Many thanks Kurubo/Grace, I suppose then, in light of the foregoing, State must at all costs avail "information" under it's possession. Citing the "Freedom of information" clause within this context however, makes it imperative for State to do so within universally adopted benchmarks. But within the same context, what is the citizen's responsibility? I could check this out. But does the clause in the same vein confer a mandatory responsibility upon the citizen to ensure their exercise of this "Right to access" does not go to waste, or does he/she have the freedom to exercise this right/liberty liberally. One can argue that for instance, a mother who fails to vaccinate her child against polio, because of "failure" to access information as opposed to "lack" of access to information should be held responsible. Is this enforceable in law..? How? Lastly but not least, State has only a tiny custody of information consumable by the public. I dare say that a lot of information/knowledge sought after by information consumers fall well outside the State domain. How do we police those outside, who hoard information desperately needed by consumers...? And what of those who deliberately avail misleading information/knowledge, including state..? Harry _____ From: Kerubo Ombati [mailto:kaykerubo@gmail.com] Sent: Tuesday, October 18, 2011 12:35 PM To: harry@comtelsys.co.ke Cc: KICTAnet ICT Policy Discussions Subject: Re: [kictanet] Freedom of Information laws/ e- discussion continued Hi Listers, Harry, the 'Freedom of Information' clause in the constitution is designed to give citizens free access to public information held by the state,it generally does not impose a positive obligation on the state to impart such information on the individual. However,in certain instances, failure to provide the information to an individual can be considered to constitute an interference with their private rights and a breach of the state's human rights obligations. Although, freedom of information legislation is reluctant to impose a positive obligation on the state,the considered view as adopted is that the freedom of information legislation should impose a duty on the state to impart information to the public. Regards, Kerubo On Tue, Oct 18, 2011 at 10:10 AM, Harry Delano <harry@comtelsys.co.ke> wrote: Hey Grace & Kerubo, Thanks for your summary overview. I wonder aloud whether it should only be the state that maintains this monopoly over accessibility to basic information in as far as "Freedom of information" is concerned. Whereas state has the instruments it can use to either promote or curtail such freedoms, I suppose it would also be safe to say that in quite a number of instances, state might be deemed a "lame duck". How about a remote Island sequestered somewhere, about 200 miles off the shores of Lake Victoria with no basic access to communication? Would the populace there's lack thereof, of basic information access be considered an infringement on this fundamental right/liberty by the state...? Harry _____ From: kictanet-bounces+harry=comtelsys.co.ke@lists.kictanet.or.ke [mailto:kictanet-bounces+harry <mailto:kictanet-bounces%2Bharry> =comtelsys.co.ke@lists.kictanet.or.ke] On Behalf Of Grace Githaiga Sent: Tuesday, October 18, 2011 12 <tel:2011%2012> :57 AM To: harry@comtelsys.co.ke Cc: kictanet@lists.kictanet.or.ke Subject: [kictanet] Freedom of Information laws/ e- discussion continued Thanks Harry Delano, Washington, Cleophas and Kerubo. Harry you raise a good question on what these terms mean and whether they are interchangeable. Washington, you make an important point about freedom of expression/speech not being absolute, and Cleophas affirms your point. Thanks Kerubo for the definitions. Yes, freedom of information simply means the freedom to get certain basic information held by the state, which can enable one to for example bring a case of human rights violation or any other cause. Freedom of expression can mean many things, say freedom to air your ideas, take a stand, artistic creativity--simply freedom to express how you feel. And of course as Washington and Cleophas rightly point out, all these freedoms are subject to limitations and therefore not carte blanche. In this case then: * Is there conflict between laws on freedom of information and what citizens demand/require? Lets hear it from you. Rgds Grace _______________________________________________ kictanet mailing list kictanet@lists.kictanet.or.ke http://lists.kictanet.or.ke/mailman/listinfo/kictanet Unsubscribe or change your options at http://lists.kictanet.or.ke/mailman/options/kictanet/kaykerubo%40gmail.com The Kenya ICT Action Network (KICTANet) is a multi-stakeholder platform for people and institutions interested and involved in ICT policy and regulation. The network aims to act as a catalyst for reform in the ICT sector in support of the national aim of ICT enabled growth and development. KICTANetiquette : Adhere to the same standards of acceptable behaviors online that you follow in real life: respect people's times and bandwidth, share knowledge, don't flame or abuse or personalize, respect privacy, do not spam, do not market your wares or qualifications.

Great discussion RTI (Right to Information) may also apply vertically meaning it could apply to individuals or private bodies-corporate or not-for profits who hold information that is essential for the fulfilment of one human rights. For instance, a public-private water company operating in Mavoko will be expected to share information with a resident of Kathiani constituency on water tariffs, quality etc if not such a member can file a request and if denied (mute refusal) then they can move to court to seek the information. They will be seeking restitution of two rights (right to access information, and right to water). Similarly private bodies that receive substantial public resoources for execution of public service are deemed to fall within the purview of RTI laws. Apart from keeping in retrievable formats and practively making as much of such information public, public servants/officers have a duty to assist citizens who may not know where to find information they may need which may be held by another public body or a private body. Happy to respond to any specific concerns and querries listers may have on the subject. Regards HENRY O. MAINA DIRECTOR ARTICLE 19 KENYA/EASTERN AFRICA P O BOX 2653,00100 NAIROBI TEL:+254 (20) 3862230/2 FAX:+254 (20) 3862231 EMAIL: henry@article19.org ________________________________________ From: kictanet-bounces+henry=article19.org@lists.kictanet.or.ke [kictanet-bounces+henry=article19.org@lists.kictanet.or.ke] on behalf of Kerubo Ombati [kaykerubo@gmail.com] Sent: 18 October 2011 02:27 PM To: Henry Maina Cc: KICTAnet ICT Policy Discussions Subject: Re: [kictanet] Freedom of Information laws/ e- discussion continued The essence of the freedom of information legislation is that it applies vertically, the citizen's rights to demand from the state and not viz a vie other citizens, the citizen can exercise their rights or not,,,its up to them,the law does not confer any responsibility on them. The issue of a mother denying her child access to polio vaccine is an issue of children's rights. On Tue, Oct 18, 2011 at 1:58 PM, Harry Delano <harry@comtelsys.co.ke<mailto:harry@comtelsys.co.ke>> wrote: Many thanks Kurubo/Grace, I suppose then, in light of the foregoing, State must at all costs avail "information" under it's possession. Citing the "Freedom of information" clause within this context however, makes it imperative for State to do so within universally adopted benchmarks. But within the same context, what is the citizen's responsibility? I could check this out. But does the clause in the same vein confer a mandatory responsibility upon the citizen to ensure their exercise of this "Right to access" does not go to waste, or does he/she have the freedom to exercise this right/liberty liberally. One can argue that for instance, a mother who fails to vaccinate her child against polio, because of "failure" to access information as opposed to "lack" of access to information should be held responsible. Is this enforceable in law..? How? Lastly but not least, State has only a tiny custody of information consumable by the public. I dare say that a lot of information/knowledge sought after by information consumers fall well outside the State domain. How do we police those outside, who hoard information desperately needed by consumers...? And what of those who deliberately avail misleading information/knowledge, including state..? Harry ________________________________ From: Kerubo Ombati [mailto:kaykerubo@gmail.com<mailto:kaykerubo@gmail.com>] Sent: Tuesday, October 18, 2011 12<tel:2011%2012>:35 PM To: harry@comtelsys.co.ke<mailto:harry@comtelsys.co.ke> Cc: KICTAnet ICT Policy Discussions Subject: Re: [kictanet] Freedom of Information laws/ e- discussion continued Hi Listers, Harry, the 'Freedom of Information' clause in the constitution is designed to give citizens free access to public information held by the state,it generally does not impose a positive obligation on the state to impart such information on the individual. However,in certain instances, failure to provide the information to an individual can be considered to constitute an interference with their private rights and a breach of the state's human rights obligations. Although, freedom of information legislation is reluctant to impose a positive obligation on the state,the considered view as adopted is that the freedom of information legislation should impose a duty on the state to impart information to the public. Regards, Kerubo On Tue, Oct 18, 2011 at 10:10 AM, Harry Delano <harry@comtelsys.co.ke<mailto:harry@comtelsys.co.ke>> wrote: Hey Grace & Kerubo, Thanks for your summary overview. I wonder aloud whether it should only be the state that maintains this monopoly over accessibility to basic information in as far as "Freedom of information" is concerned. Whereas state has the instruments it can use to either promote or curtail such freedoms, I suppose it would also be safe to say that in quite a number of instances, state might be deemed a "lame duck". How about a remote Island sequestered somewhere, about 200 miles off the shores of Lake Victoria with no basic access to communication? Would the populace there's lack thereof, of basic information access be considered an infringement on this fundamental right/liberty by the state...? Harry ________________________________ From: kictanet-bounces+harry=comtelsys.co.ke@lists.kictanet.or.ke<mailto:comtelsys.co.ke@lists.kictanet.or.ke> [mailto:kictanet-bounces+harry<mailto:kictanet-bounces%2Bharry>=comtelsys.co.ke@lists.kictanet.or.ke<mailto:comtelsys.co.ke@lists.kictanet.or.ke>] On Behalf Of Grace Githaiga Sent: Tuesday, October 18, 2011 12<tel:2011%2012>:57 AM To: harry@comtelsys.co.ke<mailto:harry@comtelsys.co.ke> Cc: kictanet@lists.kictanet.or.ke<mailto:kictanet@lists.kictanet.or.ke> Subject: [kictanet] Freedom of Information laws/ e- discussion continued Thanks Harry Delano, Washington, Cleophas and Kerubo. Harry you raise a good question on what these terms mean and whether they are interchangeable. Washington, you make an important point about freedom of expression/speech not being absolute, and Cleophas affirms your point. Thanks Kerubo for the definitions. Yes, freedom of information simply means the freedom to get certain basic information held by the state, which can enable one to for example bring a case of human rights violation or any other cause. Freedom of expression can mean many things, say freedom to air your ideas, take a stand, artistic creativity--simply freedom to express how you feel. And of course as Washington and Cleophas rightly point out, all these freedoms are subject to limitations and therefore not carte blanche. In this case then: * Is there conflict between laws on freedom of information and what citizens demand/require? Lets hear it from you. Rgds Grace _______________________________________________ kictanet mailing list kictanet@lists.kictanet.or.ke<mailto:kictanet@lists.kictanet.or.ke> http://lists.kictanet.or.ke/mailman/listinfo/kictanet Unsubscribe or change your options at http://lists.kictanet.or.ke/mailman/options/kictanet/kaykerubo%40gmail.com The Kenya ICT Action Network (KICTANet) is a multi-stakeholder platform for people and institutions interested and involved in ICT policy and regulation. The network aims to act as a catalyst for reform in the ICT sector in support of the national aim of ICT enabled growth and development. KICTANetiquette : Adhere to the same standards of acceptable behaviors online that you follow in real life: respect people's times and bandwidth, share knowledge, don't flame or abuse or personalize, respect privacy, do not spam, do not market your wares or qualifications.

Grace, I am sort of disappointed with the discussion on FOI. We are delving much into theoretical assumptions. The whole issue of FOI has not built demand for the information into the kind of model we are discussing. Let us not allow foreigners dictate why we need information to be available to our citizens. What needs to be done is more of cultural reorientation to make our people use information. We rarely make informed decisions. I mean use of science to make decisions. Poverty keeps on going up yet science tells us our productivity has dropped to the extent those we call farmers cannot make ends meet. Whereas we need qualified people in work place we do not require qualification for farmers. We now have novice farmers as wen grapple with food insecurity. If we cannot use available information on how we can be food secure, what more information you need that would change our lives? For as long as we have lived on earth no Kenyan community has information on their own recipes. The assumptions is that if you want Ugali you just get to know how to cook it. There are more than fifteen Ugali recipes and none is documented. There are more than 100 Githeri recipes and none is documented to create rich information that application developers can proudly create apps. Until we move from our oral culture, information will be confined to storage places where it will occasionally be used. We are also confusing information and data. The Government can release data and unless someone converts it into information, it will never translate to your theoretical assumptions. We generally want to listen to someone tells us what information is available. You recall some communities did not read the constitution since the leaders had read it. I had difficulty explaining some sections of the constitution even though we all had the document. FOI will pass as has been many legislations that were key. We have fought for these legislations but after they are passed nothing happens. We wanted the ICT policy but many of it's advocates have not gone out there to tell Kenyans how to benefit from it. This certainly will happen the same way to FOI. We are rebels without a cause. I have met dozens of women groups and taken them through our census report highlighting the glaring disparities between men and women but in spite the fact that they promise to do something, none has ever done anything even bringing the issue up for debate. We must aim to change our culture. We must make our people to demand to know what information they require in order to change from where they are to a desired future. We must build institutional frameworks to move date into information. As we debate, let us put a side theories from textbooks and begin from the end. Ask questions such as what formats are we to get the information? Who will set the standards for information? How will the poor benefit from the information? How will the information be disseminated? Picture our problems and create the vision on how information can be used to bring better life for our people. Work the food security issue I mentioned backwards. We have mapped our soils in the country and the result is available on the open data yet you see farmers growing crops that will never give them the desired productivity. For example, in Ukambani, farmers can grow cassava or water Mellon which will give them more money to buy maize from the north rift instead of them growing the maize that would impoverish them. How can we effectively communicate this. We must create language institutes for every ethnic group in Kenya. Language is dynamic yet we have not kept pace with technological advancement with our languages. This is why we fail to communicate. There is no African language that has a translation of break-even point or productivity yet these two words determine whether you will be poor or not. Information is information if the medium of communication is understood by all. We all need FOI but we have a lot to do if it is to making meaning in our lives. Ndemo.

Harry, thanks for those probing questions that have kept this discussion going and continue to raise more questions. As a result, our attention has been drawn to a very important document. Kudos to Kerubo for the responses.

Rosemary, the Africa Platform on Access to Information Declaration is a great document. It is comprehensive and we appreciate your bringing it to our attention. It will contribute to the review of the IRMT/IDRC study on aligning records management with ICT, e-goverment and freedom of information, which has been the basis of this e-discussion.

In your contribution, you point out that access to information cannot succeed unless government takes initiative to develop legislation and ensure its implementation. Harry felt that the State must at all costs avail information. The question to listers is:

What demands would Freedom of Information (FOI) legislation place on government?

Henry, you have unpackaged the Right to Information (RTI) concept in a very practical and relevant manner. The local example using Mavoko is on spot. I know listers will take you up on your offer to seek more information on the topic.

You point out the need to have information in retrievable formats and proactively making as much of such information public. Also, that public servants/officers have a duty to assist citizens who may not know where to find information they may need.

What strategies could be developed to synchronize Freedom of Information and records management initiatives?

And finally to Harry: did you find out what the citizens’ responsibility would be in all this?

A great day to all of you listers. Lets hear your views.

Rgds Grace

----------------------------------------------------------------------------------- If you have the strength to survive, you have the power to succeed. Life is all about choices we make depending upon the situation we are in. Go forth and rule the World!

From: harry@comtelsys.co.ke Date: Tue, 18 Oct 2011 13:58:44 +0300 Subject: Re: [kictanet] Freedom of Information laws/ e- discussion continued CC: kictanet@lists.kictanet.or.ke To: ggithaiga@hotmail.com

Many thanks Kurubo/Grace,

I suppose then, in light of the foregoing, State must at all costs avail "information" under it's possession.

Citing the "Freedom of information" clause within this context however, makes it imperative for State to do so within universally adopted benchmarks. But within the same context, what is the citizen's responsibility?

I could check this out. But does the clause in the same vein confer a mandatory responsibility upon the citizen to ensure their exercise of this "Right to access" does not go to waste, or does he/she have the freedom to exercise this right/liberty liberally.

One can argue that for instance, a mother who fails to vaccinate her child against polio, because of "failure" to access information as opposed to "lack" of access to information should be held responsible. Is this enforceable in law..? How?

Lastly but not least, State has only a tiny custody of information consumable by the public. I dare say that a lot of information/knowledge sought after by information consumers fall well outside the State domain.

How do we police those outside, who hoard information desperately needed by consumers...? And what of those who deliberately avail misleading information/knowledge, including state..?

Harry

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Unsubscribe or change your options at http://lists.kictanet.or.ke/mailman/options/kictanet/bitange%40jambo.co.ke

The Kenya ICT Action Network (KICTANet) is a multi-stakeholder platform for people and institutions interested and involved in ICT policy and regulation. The network aims to act as a catalyst for reform in the ICT sector in support of the national aim of ICT enabled growth and development.

KICTANetiquette : Adhere to the same standards of acceptable behaviors online that you follow in real life: respect people's times and bandwidth, share knowledge, don't flame or abuse or personalize, respect privacy, do not spam, do not market your wares or qualifications.

Grace, Knowledge evolves when people understand new concepts and belief in them. Our situation is where we belief in unverified (non scientific) information. It is an ingrained cultural practice that must change. Since we must implement section 35 (access to information) of our constitution, our focus now is how can we make our people embrace the process of decision making. The government has made real progress in driving policy based on research. Sometime last year we expressed concern over increasing girl child dropout rate. Finance Minister wanted to know the causes. He was informed that it was due to lack of sanitary towels that forced the young minds to miss out on their education. You can clearly see this on the census data. In his budget this year the Minister put a side some 300 million shillings for sanitary towels. This is how we can begin to explain the need for information and how we can impact on policy. Unfortunately, we now define information narrowly as something the government has hidden. Media for example looks at information only when there is a scoop. Let us be more optimistic and focus on Harry's proposal of information value chain. Ndemo

Bwana PS and Harry

Thanks for those well articulated positions. Just to capture some issues you have raised:

· That FoI has not built demand for information into the kind of model under discussion on the list. · There is need for a complete cultural re-orientation to make Kenyans use information. As it is, Kenyans are not utilizing a lot of information available. · Kenyans need to move from an oral culture, and start documenting information, and make it available (I am actually curious of those 15 Ugali recipes:)). · And very important is that data being released by the government needs conversion into meaningful and usable information. · There is need for ethnic language institutions to facilitate better communication. · That we need home bred solutions and must confront key challenges as well as define what works for us. · And that the Platform on Access to Information Declaration needs a review in order to capture the digital information age realities.

Some key questions arise from your contributions:

1. That Data in its stored form can never be information, until the same is conveyed to the target audience. What of knowledge? Where on the value chain do we build up data into knowledge, so that we can build ours into a "knowledge-based economy"?

2. And if we go up the data/information tree, what about data that has yet to find its way into the data bank, possibly some which remains in institutional memory form. How do we ensure we capture this for future generations?

3. What formats are we to get the information?

4. Who will set the standards for information?

5. How will the poor benefit from the information?

6. How will the information be disseminated?

Listers, please feel free to respond to any of the questions and lets keep this debate going.

Rgds Grace

----------------------------------------------------------------------------------- If you have the strength to survive, you have the power to succeed. Life is all about choices we make depending upon the situation we are in. Go forth and rule the World!

...

Date: Wed, 19 Oct 2011 04:17:22 +0300 Subject: Re: [kictanet] Freedom of Information laws and records management/ e- discussion continued From: bitange@jambo.co.ke To: ggithaiga@hotmail.com CC: bitange@jambo.co.ke; kictanet@lists.kictanet.or.ke

Grace, I am sort of disappointed with the discussion on FOI. We are delving much into theoretical assumptions. The whole issue of FOI has not built demand for the information into the kind of model we are discussing. Let us not allow foreigners dictate why we need information to be available to our citizens.

What needs to be done is more of cultural reorientation to make our people use information. We rarely make informed decisions. I mean use of science to make decisions. Poverty keeps on going up yet science tells us our productivity has dropped to the extent those we call farmers cannot make ends meet. Whereas we need qualified people in work place we do not require qualification for farmers. We now have novice farmers as wen grapple with food insecurity. If we cannot use available information on how we can be food secure, what more information you need that would change our lives?

For as long as we have lived on earth no Kenyan community has information on their own recipes. The assumptions is that if you want Ugali you just get to know how to cook it. There are more than fifteen Ugali recipes and none is documented. There are more than 100 Githeri recipes and none is documented to create rich information that application developers can proudly create apps. Until we move from our oral culture, information will be confined to storage places where it will occasionally be used.

We are also confusing information and data. The Government can release data and unless someone converts it into information, it will never translate to your theoretical assumptions. We generally want to listen to someone tells us what information is available. You recall some communities did not read the constitution since the leaders had read it. I had difficulty explaining some sections of the constitution even though we all had the document.

FOI will pass as has been many legislations that were key. We have fought for these legislations but after they are passed nothing happens. We wanted the ICT policy but many of it's advocates have not gone out there to tell Kenyans how to benefit from it. This certainly will happen the same way to FOI. We are rebels without a cause. I have met dozens of women groups and taken them through our census report highlighting the glaring disparities between men and women but in spite the fact that they promise to do something, none has ever done anything even bringing the issue up for debate.

We must aim to change our culture. We must make our people to demand to know what information they require in order to change from where they are to a desired future. We must build institutional frameworks to move date into information. As we debate, let us put a side theories from textbooks and begin from the end. Ask questions such as what formats are we to get the information? Who will set the standards for information? How will the poor benefit from the information? How will the information be disseminated?

Picture our problems and create the vision on how information can be used to bring better life for our people. Work the food security issue I mentioned backwards. We have mapped our soils in the country and the result is available on the open data yet you see farmers growing crops that will never give them the desired productivity. For example, in Ukambani, farmers can grow cassava or water Mellon which will give them more money to buy maize from the north rift instead of them growing the maize that would impoverish them. How can we effectively communicate this.

We must create language institutes for every ethnic group in Kenya. Language is dynamic yet we have not kept pace with technological advancement with our languages. This is why we fail to communicate. There is no African language that has a translation of break-even point or productivity yet these two words determine whether you will be poor or not. Information is information if the medium of communication is understood by all. We all need FOI but we have a lot to do if it is to making meaning in our lives.

Dear PS Ndemo and All. I have been following the debate on Freedom of Information and the emerging issues raised by many of you. I certainly agree with the PS that we need a cultural shift to make our people appreciate the value of information and use. But it is also my view that in order to use information and we need to manage it and especially we need to manage records and have proper structures in all of our institutions to promote sound records management. We need to think about what will happen when eventually we are able to get the FOI law enacted, will there be well managed information and more specifically records to access and to access them in a timely manner. Will it be possible to meet the timelines that may be set by the Act to provide the required information? do we even have the requisite infrastructure to ensure that this happens? and are we working hard to provide that enabling environment? Having a law in place is one thing and we certainly need an FOI law to create a demand for information and to bolster the gains brought about by our new constitution, but changing the mindset even among those of us who have an understanding of the critical issues of information and records management and beginning to lend support to initiatives to manage records properly remains a herculian task. If we are not careful, our societies may remain without memory as we embrace the digital environment. A recent IDRC study on aligning records management with e-Govt, ICTs and FOI  across all five East African Community countries revealed that there were serious gaps with regard to policy, capacity building, infrastructure and much more. My appeal is that as we deliberate on issues of FOI let's all begin to think seriously and critical about how we can incorporate records management into discussions about ICT development, e-Government and development generally. It will not help our cause if we keep relegating the management of records to a clerical activity while at the same time we need quality information for decision making, etc. The resolutions of a stakeholders meeting held in Arusha to deliberate on the findings of the IDRC research acknowledged the huge gaps that exist and called for action to be taken by all five of the EAC countries. Justus Wamukoya ________________________________ From: "bitange@jambo.co.ke" <bitange@jambo.co.ke> To: jwamukoya1@yahoo.com Cc: kictanet@lists.kictanet.or.ke Sent: Wednesday, 19 October 2011, 22:11 Subject: Re: [kictanet] Freedom of Information laws and records management/More questions raised by Dr Ndemo and Harry Delano Grace, Knowledge evolves when people understand new concepts and belief in them. Our situation is where we belief in unverified (non scientific) information.  It is an ingrained cultural practice that must change. Since we must implement section 35 (access to information) of our constitution, our focus now is how can we make our people embrace the process of decision making. The government has made real progress in driving policy based on research. Sometime last year we expressed concern over increasing girl child dropout rate.  Finance Minister wanted to know the causes.  He was informed that it was due to lack of sanitary towels that forced the young minds to miss out on their education.  You can clearly see this on the census data.  In his budget this year the Minister put a side some 300 million shillings for sanitary towels.  This is how we can begin to explain the need for information and how we can impact on policy. Unfortunately, we now define information narrowly as something the government has hidden. Media for example looks at information only when there is a scoop.  Let us be more optimistic and focus on Harry's proposal of information value chain. Ndemo

Bwana PS and Harry

Thanks for those well articulated positions. Just to capture some issues you have raised:

·        That FoI has not built demand for information into the kind of model under discussion on the list. ·        There is need for a complete cultural re-orientation to make Kenyans use information. As it is, Kenyans are not utilizing a lot of information available. ·        Kenyans need to move from an oral culture, and start documenting information, and make it available (I am actually curious of those 15 Ugali recipes:)). ·        And very important is that data being released by the government needs conversion into meaningful and usable information. ·        There is need for ethnic language institutions to facilitate better communication. ·        That we need home bred solutions and must confront key challenges as well as define what works for us. ·        And that the Platform on Access to Information Declaration needs a review in order to capture the digital information age realities.

Some key questions arise from your contributions:

1.    That Data in its stored form can never be information, until the same is conveyed to the target audience. What of knowledge? Where on the value chain do we build up data into knowledge, so that we can build ours into a "knowledge-based economy"?

2.    And if we go up the data/information tree, what about data that has yet to find its way into the data bank, possibly some which remains in institutional memory form. How do we ensure we capture this for future generations?

3.    What formats are we to get the information?

4.    Who will set the standards for information?

5.    How will the poor benefit from the information?

6.    How will the information be disseminated?

Listers, please feel free to respond to any of the questions and lets keep this debate going.

Rgds Grace

----------------------------------------------------------------------------------- If you have the strength to survive, you have the power to succeed. Life is all about choices we make depending upon the situation we are in. Go forth and rule the World!

...

Date: Wed, 19 Oct 2011 04:17:22 +0300 Subject: Re: [kictanet] Freedom of Information laws and records management/ e- discussion continued From: bitange@jambo.co.ke To: ggithaiga@hotmail.com CC: bitange@jambo.co.ke; kictanet@lists.kictanet.or.ke

Grace, I am sort of disappointed with the discussion on FOI. We are delving much into theoretical assumptions. The whole issue of FOI has not built demand for the information into the kind of model we are discussing. Let us not allow foreigners dictate why we need information to be available to our citizens.

What needs to be done is more of cultural reorientation to make our people use information. We rarely make informed decisions. I mean use of science to make decisions. Poverty keeps on going up yet science tells us our productivity has dropped to the extent those we call farmers cannot make ends meet. Whereas we need qualified people in work place we do not require qualification for farmers. We now have novice farmers as wen grapple with food insecurity. If we cannot use available information on how we can be food secure, what more information you need that would change our lives?

For as long as we have lived on earth no Kenyan community has information on their own recipes. The assumptions is that if you want Ugali you just get to know how to cook it. There are more than fifteen Ugali recipes and none is documented. There are more than 100 Githeri recipes and none is documented to create rich information that application developers can proudly create apps. Until we move from our oral culture, information will be confined to storage places where it will occasionally be used.

We are also confusing information and data. The Government can release data and unless someone converts it into information, it will never translate to your theoretical assumptions. We generally want to listen to someone tells us what information is available. You recall some communities did not read the constitution since the leaders had read it. I had difficulty explaining some sections of the constitution even though we all had the document.

FOI will pass as has been many legislations that were key. We have fought for these legislations but after they are passed nothing happens. We wanted the ICT policy but many of it's advocates have not gone out there to tell Kenyans how to benefit from it. This certainly will happen the same way to FOI. We are rebels without a cause. I have met dozens of women groups and taken them through our census report highlighting the glaring disparities between men and women but in spite the fact that they promise to do something, none has ever done anything even bringing the issue up for debate.

We must aim to change our culture. We must make our people to demand to know what information they require in order to change from where they are to a desired future. We must build institutional frameworks to move date into information. As we debate, let us put a side theories from textbooks and begin from the end. Ask questions such as what formats are we to get the information? Who will set the standards for information? How will the poor benefit from the information? How will the information be disseminated?

Picture our problems and create the vision on how information can be used to bring better life for our people. Work the food security issue I mentioned backwards. We have mapped our soils in the country and the result is available on the open data yet you see farmers growing crops that will never give them the desired productivity. For example, in Ukambani, farmers can grow cassava or water Mellon which will give them more money to buy maize from the north rift instead of them growing the maize that would impoverish them. How can we effectively communicate this.

We must create language institutes for every ethnic group in Kenya. Language is dynamic yet we have not kept pace with technological advancement with our languages. This is why we fail to communicate. There is no African language that has a translation of break-even point or productivity yet these two words determine whether you will be poor or not. Information is information if the medium of communication is understood by all. We all need FOI but we have a lot to do if it is to making meaning in our lives.

_______________________________________________ kictanet mailing list kictanet@lists.kictanet.or.ke http://lists.kictanet.or.ke/mailman/listinfo/kictanet Unsubscribe or change your options at http://lists.kictanet.or.ke/mailman/options/kictanet/jwamukoya1%40yahoo.com The Kenya ICT Action Network (KICTANet) is a multi-stakeholder platform for people and institutions interested and involved in ICT policy and regulation. The network aims to act as a catalyst for reform in the ICT sector in support of the national aim of ICT enabled growth and development. KICTANetiquette : Adhere to the same standards of acceptable behaviors online that you follow in real life: respect people's times and bandwidth, share knowledge, don't flame or abuse or personalize, respect privacy, do not spam, do not market your wares or qualifications.

Thanks Dr. Ndemo for your thoughts.It is true that organizations public as well as private need to manage their information as well as records well enough that citizens can have access to quality information that will enable them ascertain their various rights. This will require a more systematic approach in the way we automate our registries to ensure provision of quality information. Currently, government efforts in various information sectors such as ICT, e-Government, Records Management and FOI are disjointed and not adequately coordinated. Professionals in each sector are doing their own thing without paying attention to what is happenning in other sectors. We can certainly take this country places by having in place a more systematic and integrated approach towards information management with more attention being paid to standards.  Have  a good day. Justus ________________________________ From: "bitange@jambo.co.ke" <bitange@jambo.co.ke> To: justus wamukoya <jwamukoya1@yahoo.com> Cc: "kictanet@lists.kictanet.or.ke" <kictanet@lists.kictanet.or.ke> Sent: Friday, 21 October 2011, 21:05 Subject: Re: [kictanet] Freedom of Information laws and records management/More questions raised by Dr Ndemo and Harry Delano Justus, You are right. The Government actually is a head in this endeavor considering the fact that most registries would be digitized before the law is in place. On open data we are working on data standards. We need more apps to make it easier for the public to navigate through and find what they want. People generally would need information that affects their day to day life. Personally I would need more data or information from utilities. Here we shall need for example smart grid so that I can understand my energy consumption. I need to verify what KPLC or City Council bill me. I need to compare what my physician charges me. I need the hospital to itemise their billing. This is where we shall have a problem since most of these organization have no idea what the impact of access to information is all a bout. Soon on open data we post school performaces and qualification of teachers. This will help provide better analtics on why some schools or students perform better than others. We simply have to have all the information in digital format. It will be easier to manage the databases and create more software development jobs. Digital records are easier to manage, search and greater sharing of information. Ndemo. Sent from my BlackBerry® ________________________________ From: justus wamukoya <jwamukoya1@yahoo.com> Date: Fri, 21 Oct 2011 12:16:08 +0100 (BST) To: bitange@jambo.co.ke<bitange@jambo.co.ke> ReplyTo: justus wamukoya <jwamukoya1@yahoo.com> Cc: kictanet@lists.kictanet.or.ke<kictanet@lists.kictanet.or.ke> Subject: Re: [kictanet] Freedom of Information laws and records management/More questions raised by Dr Ndemo and Harry Delano Dear PS Ndemo and All. I have been following the debate on Freedom of Information and the emerging issues raised by many of you. I certainly agree with the PS that we need a cultural shift to make our people appreciate the value of information and use. But it is also my view that in order to use information and we need to manage it and especially we need to manage records and have proper structures in all of our institutions to promote sound records management. We need to think about what will happen when eventually we are able to get the FOI law enacted, will there be well managed information and more specifically records to access and to access them in a timely manner. Will it be possible to meet the timelines that may be set by the Act to provide the required information? do we even have the requisite infrastructure to ensure that this happens? and are we working hard to provide that enabling environment? Having a law in place is one thing and we certainly need an FOI law to create a demand for information and to bolster the gains brought about by our new constitution, but changing the mindset even among those of us who have an understanding of the critical issues of information and records management and beginning to lend support to initiatives to manage records properly remains a herculian task. If we are not careful, our societies may remain without memory as we embrace the digital environment. A recent IDRC study on aligning records management with e-Govt, ICTs and FOI  across all five East African Community countries revealed that there were serious gaps with regard to policy, capacity building, infrastructure and much more. My appeal is that as we deliberate on issues of FOI let's all begin to think seriously and critical about how we can incorporate records management into discussions about ICT development, e-Government and development generally. It will not help our cause if we keep relegating the management of records to a clerical activity while at the same time we need quality information for decision making, etc. The resolutions of a stakeholders meeting held in Arusha to deliberate on the findings of the IDRC research acknowledged the huge gaps that exist and called for action to be taken by all five of the EAC countries. Justus Wamukoya ________________________________ From: "bitange@jambo.co.ke" <bitange@jambo.co.ke> To: jwamukoya1@yahoo.com Cc: kictanet@lists.kictanet.or.ke Sent: Wednesday, 19 October 2011, 22:11 Subject: Re: [kictanet] Freedom of Information laws and records management/More questions raised by Dr Ndemo and Harry Delano Grace, Knowledge evolves when people understand new concepts and belief in them. Our situation is where we belief in unverified (non scientific) information.  It is an ingrained cultural practice that must change. Since we must implement section 35 (access to information) of our constitution, our focus now is how can we make our people embrace the process of decision making. The government has made real progress in driving policy based on research. Sometime last year we expressed concern over increasing girl child dropout rate.  Finance Minister wanted to know the causes.  He was informed that it was due to lack of sanitary towels that forced the young minds to miss out on their education.  You can clearly see this on the census data.  In his budget this year the Minister put a side some 300 million shillings for sanitary towels.  This is how we can begin to explain the need for information and how we can impact on policy. Unfortunately, we now define information narrowly as something the government has hidden. Media for example looks at information only when there is a scoop.  Let us be more optimistic and focus on Harry's proposal of information value chain. Ndemo

Bwana PS and Harry

Thanks for those well articulated positions. Just to capture some issues you have raised:

·        That FoI has not built demand for information into the kind of model under discussion on the list. ·        There is need for a complete cultural re-orientation to make Kenyans use information. As it is, Kenyans are not utilizing a lot of information available. ·        Kenyans need to move from an oral culture, and start documenting information, and make it available (I am actually curious of those 15 Ugali recipes:)). ·        And very important is that data being released by the government needs conversion into meaningful and usable

·        There is need for ethnic language institutions to facilitate better communication. ·        That we need home bred solutions and must confront key challenges as well as define what works for us. ·        And that the Platform on Access to Information Declaration needs a review in order to capture the digital information age realities.

Some key questions arise from your contributions:

1.    That Data in its stored form can never be information, until the same is conveyed to the target audience. What of knowledge? Where on the value chain do we build up data into knowledge, so that we can build ours into a "knowledge-based economy"?

2.    And if we go up the data/information tree, what about data that has yet to find its way into the data bank, possibly some which remains in institutional memory form. How do we ensure we capture this for future generations?

3.    What formats are we to get the information?

4.    Who will set the standards for information?

5.    How will the poor benefit from the information?

6.    How will the information be disseminated?

Listers, please feel free to respond to any of the questions and lets keep this debate going.

Rgds Grace

----------------------------------------------------------------------------------- If you have the strength to survive, you have the power to succeed. Life is all about choices we make depending upon the situation we are in. Go forth and rule the World!

...

Date: Wed, 19 Oct 2011 04:17:22 +0300

...

Subject: Re: [kictanet] Freedom of Information laws and records management/ e- discussion continued From: bitange@jambo.co.ke To: ggithaiga@hotmail.com CC: bitange@jambo.co.ke; kictanet@lists.kictanet.or.ke

Grace, I am sort of disappointed with the discussion on FOI. We are delving much into theoretical assumptions. The whole issue of FOI has not built demand for the information into the kind of model we are discussing. Let us not allow foreigners dictate why we need information to be available to our citizens.

What needs to be done is more of cultural reorientation to make our people use information. We rarely make informed decisions. I mean use of science to make decisions. Poverty keeps on going up yet science tells us our productivity has dropped to the extent those we call farmers cannot make ends meet. Whereas we need qualified people in work place we do not require qualification for farmers. We now have novice farmers as wen grapple with food insecurity. If we cannot use available information on how we can be food secure, what more information you need that would change our lives?

For as long as we have lived on earth no Kenyan community has

information

...

on their own recipes. The assumptions is that if you want Ugali you just get to know how to cook it. There are more than fifteen Ugali recipes and none is documented. There are more than 100 Githeri recipes and none is documented to create rich information that application developers can proudly create apps. Until we move from our oral culture, information will be confined to storage places where it will occasionally be used.

We are also confusing information and data. The Government can release data and unless someone converts it into information, it will never translate to your theoretical assumptions. We generally want to listen to someone tells us what information is available. You recall some communities did not read the constitution since the leaders had read it. I had difficulty explaining some sections of the constitution even though we all had the document.

FOI will pass as has been many legislations that were key. We have fought for these legislations but after they are passed nothing happens. We wanted the ICT policy but many of it's advocates have not gone out there to tell Kenyans how to benefit from it. This certainly will happen the same way to FOI. We are rebels without a cause. I have met dozens of women groups and taken them through our census report highlighting the glaring disparities between men and women but in spite the fact that they promise to do something, none has ever done anything even bringing the issue up for debate.

We must aim to change our culture. We must make our people to demand to know what information they require in order to change from where they are to a desired future. We must build institutional frameworks to move date into information. As we debate, let us put a side theories from textbooks and begin from the end. Ask questions such as what formats are we to get the information? Who will set the standards for information? How will the poor benefit from the information? How will the information be disseminated?

Picture our problems and create the vision on how information can be used to bring better life for our people. Work the food security issue I mentioned backwards. We have mapped our soils in the country and the result is available on the open data yet you see farmers growing crops that will never give them

...

Ukambani, farmers can grow cassava or water Mellon which will give them more money to buy maize from the north rift instead of them growing the maize that would impoverish them. How can we effectively communicate this.

We must create language institutes for every ethnic group in Kenya. Language is dynamic yet we have not kept pace with technological advancement with our languages. This is why we fail to communicate. There is no African language that has a translation of break-even point or productivity yet these two words determine whether you will be poor or not. Information is information if the medium of communication is understood by all. We all need FOI but we have a lot to do if it is to making meaning in our

information. the desired productivity. For example, in lives.

...

_______________________________________________ kictanet mailing list kictanet@lists.kictanet.or.ke http://lists.kictanet.or.ke/mailman/listinfo/kictanet Unsubscribe or change your options at http://lists.kictanet.or.ke/mailman/options/kictanet/jwamukoya1%40yahoo.com The Kenya ICT Action Network (KICTANet) is a multi-stakeholder platform for people and institutions interested and involved in ICT policy and regulation. The network aims to act as a catalyst for reform in the ICT sector in support of the national aim of ICT enabled growth and development. KICTANetiquette : Adhere to the same standards of acceptable behaviors online that you follow in real life: respect people's times and bandwidth, share knowledge, don't flame or abuse or personalize, respect privacy, do not spam, do not market your wares or qualifications.

Grace, Based on what I have seen on this list to date, I think if we are to accord this very important topic the magnitude it deserves, we may need a much more larger, multi-stakeholder forum to tackle information management. Perhaps we can dub it "Information Value chain management for socio-economic and political development". Then this way, we can tap some of the progressive minds we have in this country, including our very own PS to help us put into sharp focus a more "Knowledge-based" society that will drive forward a "Knowledge-based Economy/Socio-Political agenda" We need to scale this to a level at which we can start seeing action and realizing clearly laid-out objectives going forward. Stakeholders really need to stand out and be counted. My final take.. Harry _____ From: kictanet-bounces+harry=comtelsys.co.ke@lists.kictanet.or.ke [mailto:kictanet-bounces+harry=comtelsys.co.ke@lists.kictanet.or.ke] On Behalf Of Grace Githaiga Sent: Monday, October 24, 2011 12:53 AM To: harry@comtelsys.co.ke Cc: kictanet@lists.kictanet.or.ke Subject: Re: [kictanet] Freedom of Information laws and records management/More questions Great ideas Wamukoya and Dr. Ndemo Wamukoya, you raise the same concern that Dr Ndemo raised earlier in this discussion on how we manage information. The question that still remains unanswered is: In what formats should this information be stored in? I agree with you on the need for institutions to have proper structures of managing information and I have in mind institutions such as the Judiciary and the Ministry of Lands. You are on spot on the need for government bodies to have a systematic approach towards information management. This question needsd further discussion: How do we incorporate records management into discussions about ICT development, e-government and development generally? Dr. Ndemo, in your contribution, you provide this vital information that the government is already working on data standards for the open data. Could you kindly provide more information on the process, and for example can people (read listers) make input? You raise the issue that there is need for apps that will make it easier for the public to navigate through and find information they are looking for. Are you tapping on local talent say from the ihub? Listers, please feel free to discuss these questions and those that have been raised in this debate on aligning records management with ICT e-government and freedom of information, that you feel need elaboration. In the meantime we will start putting together points that have emerged and share once we complete compiling. Have a great week. Rgds GG ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- ------- If you have the strength to survive, you have the power to succeed. Life is all about choices we make depending upon the situation we are in. Go forth and rule the World! _____ Date: Sat, 22 Oct 2011 08:03:54 +0100 From: jwamukoya1@yahoo.com Subject: Re: [kictanet] Freedom of Information laws and records management/More questions raised by Dr Ndemo and Harry Delano CC: kictanet@lists.kictanet.or.ke To: ggithaiga@hotmail.com Thanks Dr. Ndemo for your thoughts.It is true that organizations public as well as private need to manage their information as well as records well enough that citizens can have access to quality information that will enable them ascertain their various rights. This will require a more systematic approach in the way we automate our registries to ensure provision of quality information. Currently, government efforts in various information sectors such as ICT, e-Government, Records Management and FOI are disjointed and not adequately coordinated. Professionals in each sector are doing their own thing without paying attention to what is happenning in other sectors. We can certainly take this country places by having in place a more systematic and integrated approach towards information management with more attention being paid to standards. Have a good day. Justus _____ From: "bitange@jambo.co.ke" <bitange@jambo.co.ke> To: justus wamukoya <jwamukoya1@yahoo.com> Cc: "kictanet@lists.kictanet.or.ke" <kictanet@lists.kictanet.or.ke> Sent: Friday, 21 October 2011, 21:05 Subject: Re: [kictanet] Freedom of Information laws and records management/More questions raised by Dr Ndemo and Harry Delano Justus, You are right. The Government actually is a head in this endeavor considering the fact that most registries would be digitized before the law is in place. On open data we are working on data standards. We need more apps to make it easier for the public to navigate through and find what they want. People generally would need information that affects their day to day life. Personally I would need more data or information from utilities. Here we shall need for example smart grid so that I can understand my energy consumption. I need to verify what KPLC or City Council bill me. I need to compare what my physician charges me. I need the hospital to itemise their billing. This is where we shall have a problem since most of these organization have no idea what the impact of access to information is all a bout. Soon on open data we post school performaces and qualification of teachers. This will help provide better analtics on why some schools or students perform better than others. We simply have to have all the information in digital format. It will be easier to manage the databases and create more software development jobs. Digital records are easier to manage, search and greater sharing of information. Ndemo.

Dear All, The demand side for information is clear but it continues to be frustrated by the bureaucracy. For instance, we have the Fall Army Worm attacks in a number of counties in the country. Farmers sought information on what could be done to mitigate and the type of seeds, pesticides to use and at what frequency? The government remained talking of settling aside 300million and hiring NYS to help. How then can we have farmers ask other questions if the information given is irrelevant and if not incomplete and delayed. I ended speaking to agronomists and proposed a set of pesticides by an NGO Acre Fund long before bureacrats in Govt run an advert a week ago. Kind regards Henry ----- Original Message ----- From: bitange@jambo.co.ke To: henry@article19.org Cc: "KICTAnet ICT Policy Discussions" <kictanet@lists.kictanet.or.ke> Sent: Wednesday, October 19, 2011 4:17:22 AM Subject: Re: [kictanet] Freedom of Information laws and records management/ e- discussion continued Grace, I am sort of disappointed with the discussion on FOI. We are delving much into theoretical assumptions. The whole issue of FOI has not built demand for the information into the kind of model we are discussing. Let us not allow foreigners dictate why we need information to be available to our citizens. What needs to be done is more of cultural reorientation to make our people use information. We rarely make informed decisions. I mean use of science to make decisions. Poverty keeps on going up yet science tells us our productivity has dropped to the extent those we call farmers cannot make ends meet. Whereas we need qualified people in work place we do not require qualification for farmers. We now have novice farmers as wen grapple with food insecurity. If we cannot use available information on how we can be food secure, what more information you need that would change our lives? For as long as we have lived on earth no Kenyan community has information on their own recipes. The assumptions is that if you want Ugali you just get to know how to cook it. There are more than fifteen Ugali recipes and none is documented. There are more than 100 Githeri recipes and none is documented to create rich information that application developers can proudly create apps. Until we move from our oral culture, information will be confined to storage places where it will occasionally be used. We are also confusing information and data. The Government can release data and unless someone converts it into information, it will never translate to your theoretical assumptions. We generally want to listen to someone tells us what information is available. You recall some communities did not read the constitution since the leaders had read it. I had difficulty explaining some sections of the constitution even though we all had the document. FOI will pass as has been many legislations that were key. We have fought for these legislations but after they are passed nothing happens. We wanted the ICT policy but many of it's advocates have not gone out there to tell Kenyans how to benefit from it. This certainly will happen the same way to FOI. We are rebels without a cause. I have met dozens of women groups and taken them through our census report highlighting the glaring disparities between men and women but in spite the fact that they promise to do something, none has ever done anything even bringing the issue up for debate. We must aim to change our culture. We must make our people to demand to know what information they require in order to change from where they are to a desired future. We must build institutional frameworks to move date into information. As we debate, let us put a side theories from textbooks and begin from the end. Ask questions such as what formats are we to get the information? Who will set the standards for information? How will the poor benefit from the information? How will the information be disseminated? Picture our problems and create the vision on how information can be used to bring better life for our people. Work the food security issue I mentioned backwards. We have mapped our soils in the country and the result is available on the open data yet you see farmers growing crops that will never give them the desired productivity. For example, in Ukambani, farmers can grow cassava or water Mellon which will give them more money to buy maize from the north rift instead of them growing the maize that would impoverish them. How can we effectively communicate this. We must create language institutes for every ethnic group in Kenya. Language is dynamic yet we have not kept pace with technological advancement with our languages. This is why we fail to communicate. There is no African language that has a translation of break-even point or productivity yet these two words determine whether you will be poor or not. Information is information if the medium of communication is understood by all. We all need FOI but we have a lot to do if it is to making meaning in our lives. Ndemo.

Harry, thanks for those probing questions that have kept this discussion going and continue to raise more questions. As a result, our attention has been drawn to a very important document. Kudos to Kerubo for the responses.

Rosemary, the Africa Platform on Access to Information Declaration is a great document. It is comprehensive and we appreciate your bringing it to our attention. It will contribute to the review of the IRMT/IDRC study on aligning records management with ICT, e-goverment and freedom of information, which has been the basis of this e-discussion.

In your contribution, you point out that access to information cannot succeed unless government takes initiative to develop legislation and ensure its implementation. Harry felt that the State must at all costs avail information. The question to listers is:

What demands would Freedom of Information (FOI) legislation place on government?

Henry, you have unpackaged the Right to Information (RTI) concept in a very practical and relevant manner. The local example using Mavoko is on spot. I know listers will take you up on your offer to seek more information on the topic.

You point out the need to have information in retrievable formats and proactively making as much of such information public. Also, that public servants/officers have a duty to assist citizens who may not know where to find information they may need.

What strategies could be developed to synchronize Freedom of Information and records management initiatives?

And finally to Harry: did you find out what the citizens' responsibility would be in all this?

A great day to all of you listers. Lets hear your views.

Rgds Grace

----------------------------------------------------------------------------------- If you have the strength to survive, you have the power to succeed. Life is all about choices we make depending upon the situation we are in. Go forth and rule the World!

From: harry@comtelsys.co.ke Date: Tue, 18 Oct 2011 13:58:44 +0300 Subject: Re: [kictanet] Freedom of Information laws/ e- discussion continued CC: kictanet@lists.kictanet.or.ke To: ggithaiga@hotmail.com

Many thanks Kurubo/Grace,

I suppose then, in light of the foregoing, State must at all costs avail "information" under it's possession.

Citing the "Freedom of information" clause within this context however, makes it imperative for State to do so within universally adopted benchmarks. But within the same context, what is the citizen's responsibility?

I could check this out. But does the clause in the same vein confer a mandatory responsibility upon the citizen to ensure their exercise of this "Right to access" does not go to waste, or does he/she have the freedom to exercise this right/liberty liberally.

One can argue that for instance, a mother who fails to vaccinate her child against polio, because of "failure" to access information as opposed to "lack" of access to information should be held responsible. Is this enforceable in law..? How?

Lastly but not least, State has only a tiny custody of information consumable by the public. I dare say that a lot of information/knowledge sought after by information consumers fall well outside the State domain.

How do we police those outside, who hoard information desperately needed by consumers...? And what of those who deliberately avail misleading information/knowledge, including state..?

Harry

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The Kenya ICT Action Network (KICTANet) is a multi-stakeholder platform for people and institutions interested and involved in ICT policy and regulation. The network aims to act as a catalyst for reform in the ICT sector in support of the national aim of ICT enabled growth and development.

KICTANetiquette : Adhere to the same standards of acceptable behaviors online that you follow in real life: respect people's times and bandwidth, share knowledge, don't flame or abuse or personalize, respect privacy, do not spam, do not market your wares or qualifications.

_______________________________________________ kictanet mailing list kictanet@lists.kictanet.or.ke http://lists.kictanet.or.ke/mailman/listinfo/kictanet Unsubscribe or change your options at http://lists.kictanet.or.ke/mailman/options/kictanet/henry%40article19.org The Kenya ICT Action Network (KICTANet) is a multi-stakeholder platform for people and institutions interested and involved in ICT policy and regulation. The network aims to act as a catalyst for reform in the ICT sector in support of the national aim of ICT enabled growth and development. KICTANetiquette : Adhere to the same standards of acceptable behaviors online that you follow in real life: respect people's times and bandwidth, share knowledge, don't flame or abuse or personalize, respect privacy, do not spam, do not market your wares or qualifications.

Dear Kerubo, This is an excellent discussions and the duty bearer here is the state. Access to information cannot succeed unless the Government takes the initiative in ensuring the development of the legislation and ensuring its implementation. Maybe we can borrow from the Platform on Access to Information declaration which was launched in Cape Town s( see attached) and a number of media personalities in Kenya were part of it. Rosemary Okello Orlale Executive Director African Woman and Child Feature Service P.O.BOx 48197 00100 Nairobi, Kenya Tel. 254-20-2724756,2720554 Fax: 254-20-2718469 Website: <http://www.awcfs.org/> www.awcfs.org Description: AWC logo From: kictanet-bounces+rookello=awcfs.org@lists.kictanet.or.ke [mailto:kictanet-bounces+rookello=awcfs.org@lists.kictanet.or.ke] On Behalf Of Kerubo Ombati Sent: 18 October 2011 12:35 To: rookello@awcfs.org Cc: KICTAnet ICT Policy Discussions Subject: Re: [kictanet] Freedom of Information laws/ e- discussion continued Hi Listers, Harry, the 'Freedom of Information' clause in the constitution is designed to give citizens free access to public information held by the state,it generally does not impose a positive obligation on the state to impart such information on the individual. However,in certain instances, failure to provide the information to an individual can be considered to constitute an interference with their private rights and a breach of the state's human rights obligations. Although, freedom of information legislation is reluctant to impose a positive obligation on the state,the considered view as adopted is that the freedom of information legislation should impose a duty on the state to impart information to the public. Regards, Kerubo On Tue, Oct 18, 2011 at 10:10 AM, Harry Delano <harry@comtelsys.co.ke> wrote: Hey Grace & Kerubo, Thanks for your summary overview. I wonder aloud whether it should only be the state that maintains this monopoly over accessibility to basic information in as far as "Freedom of information" is concerned. Whereas state has the instruments it can use to either promote or curtail such freedoms, I suppose it would also be safe to say that in quite a number of instances, state might be deemed a "lame duck". How about a remote Island sequestered somewhere, about 200 miles off the shores of Lake Victoria with no basic access to communication? Would the populace there's lack thereof, of basic information access be considered an infringement on this fundamental right/liberty by the state...? Harry _____ From: kictanet-bounces+harry=comtelsys.co.ke@lists.kictanet.or.ke [mailto:kictanet-bounces+harry <mailto:kictanet-bounces%2Bharry> =comtelsys.co.ke@lists.kictanet.or.ke] On Behalf Of Grace Githaiga Sent: Tuesday, October 18, 2011 12 <tel:2011%2012> :57 AM To: harry@comtelsys.co.ke Cc: kictanet@lists.kictanet.or.ke Subject: [kictanet] Freedom of Information laws/ e- discussion continued Thanks Harry Delano, Washington, Cleophas and Kerubo. Harry you raise a good question on what these terms mean and whether they are interchangeable. Washington, you make an important point about freedom of expression/speech not being absolute, and Cleophas affirms your point. Thanks Kerubo for the definitions. Yes, freedom of information simply means the freedom to get certain basic information held by the state, which can enable one to for example bring a case of human rights violation or any other cause. Freedom of expression can mean many things, say freedom to air your ideas, take a stand, artistic creativity--simply freedom to express how you feel. And of course as Washington and Cleophas rightly point out, all these freedoms are subject to limitations and therefore not carte blanche. In this case then: * Is there conflict between laws on freedom of information and what citizens demand/require? Lets hear it from you. Rgds Grace _______________________________________________ kictanet mailing list kictanet@lists.kictanet.or.ke http://lists.kictanet.or.ke/mailman/listinfo/kictanet Unsubscribe or change your options at http://lists.kictanet.or.ke/mailman/options/kictanet/kaykerubo%40gmail.com The Kenya ICT Action Network (KICTANet) is a multi-stakeholder platform for people and institutions interested and involved in ICT policy and regulation. The network aims to act as a catalyst for reform in the ICT sector in support of the national aim of ICT enabled growth and development. KICTANetiquette : Adhere to the same standards of acceptable behaviors online that you follow in real life: respect people's times and bandwidth, share knowledge, don't flame or abuse or personalize, respect privacy, do not spam, do not market your wares or qualifications.

As we debate this, I gave the same example to Red Cross. They found out that local reseachers had developed a disease resistant variety of cassava. The information has been sitting in the labs. Indeed they are distributing seeds in Ukambani. These people would be food secure. Omega 3 is a multibillion dollar business. I take it as a suppliment as well as millions of people worldwide. Over the past three years I have passed detailed information how to harness this resource around the lake Victoria but it has fallen on deaf ears. In public everybody talks of industrializing the country but in practice it does not happen. You need political will and local support to set up such industries. I still ask what is wrong with us if we cannot exploit abundant resources even where information is available. A knowledge society uses information to enhance their livelihood. Let not seek information for cosmetic reasons. If Government keeps on seeing the positive impact of information, it will all be out there. Ndemo. Sent from my BlackBerry® -----Original Message----- From: "Harry Delano" <harry@comtelsys.co.ke> Sender: kictanet-bounces+bitange=jambo.co.ke@lists.kictanet.or.keDate: Wed, 19 Oct 2011 11:24:06 To: <bitange@jambo.co.ke> Reply-To: harry@comtelsys.co.ke Cc: KICTAnet ICT Policy Discussions<kictanet@lists.kictanet.or.ke> Subject: Re: [kictanet] Freedom of Information laws/ e- discussion continued _______________________________________________ kictanet mailing list kictanet@lists.kictanet.or.ke http://lists.kictanet.or.ke/mailman/listinfo/kictanet Unsubscribe or change your options at http://lists.kictanet.or.ke/mailman/options/kictanet/bitange%40jambo.co.ke The Kenya ICT Action Network (KICTANet) is a multi-stakeholder platform for people and institutions interested and involved in ICT policy and regulation. The network aims to act as a catalyst for reform in the ICT sector in support of the national aim of ICT enabled growth and development. KICTANetiquette : Adhere to the same standards of acceptable behaviors online that you follow in real life: respect people's times and bandwidth, share knowledge, don't flame or abuse or personalize, respect privacy, do not spam, do not market your wares or qualifications.