Some developers are raising concerns privately that great initiatives such as Zindi are "cheaply buying AI code" from Africa https://zindi.africa/faq/data_scientists According to them, "Zindi runs high-value expertise programming competitions/ hackathons in Kenya and Nigeria... and demands code in exchange for low pay prizes. It is unfairly low-cost labour for them." See attached. Are their concerns valid?
Heehe $12,000 for the "best" source code (including moral rights - so you will never get credited if its a big hit) is a complete joke imo. I would urge local developers to be cautious about these competitions and approach them strategically. For example, you can use these kind of competitions as idea triggers to (lawfully) get clues and inspiration on what problems need solving (*without* participating or signing up, as that potentially binds you to their T&Cs) - then form teams/coalitions to solve these problems independently for a much bigger potential payoff. On policy these things are happening because there are glaring loopholes in our intellectual property laws that allow *IP mining* to take place without any restriction or consequences. Its literally a free for all. Kenya needs an "Intellectual Property Resources Act", which would invalidate exploitative contracts / terms and conditions is long overdue. This is the kind of 21st Century legislation that can stimulate innovation and the creation of *high quality jobs* in Kenya. 21st Century resources include: 1. Attention or engagement (systems designed to distract people from contributing to economic activity) 2. Data (for mining/analytics or ML)3. Source code, novel circuits, algorithms, chemical formulations, mixtures, blue prints (including business plans, pricing models etc).4. Valuable ideas (e.g. "please call me") that cannot be protected via any combination of the old industrial era laws e.g. patents, copyright, UM & DM.5. other? Thanks for the heads up and Good day!Patrick. On Monday, November 12, 2018, 2:01:43 PM GMT+3, Wainaina Mungai via kictanet <kictanet@lists.kictanet.or.ke> wrote: Some developers are raising concerns privately that great initiatives such as Zindi are "cheaply buying AI code" from Africa https://zindi.africa/faq/data_scientists According to them, "Zindi runs high-value expertise programming competitions/ hackathons in Kenya and Nigeria... and demands code in exchange for low pay prizes. It is unfairly low-cost labour for them." See attached. Are their concerns valid? _______________________________________________ kictanet mailing list kictanet@lists.kictanet.or.ke https://lists.kictanet.or.ke/mailman/listinfo/kictanet Twitter: http://twitter.com/kictanet Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/KICTANet/ Domain Registration sponsored by www.eacdirectory.co.ke Unsubscribe or change your options at https://lists.kictanet.or.ke/mailman/options/kictanet/pmaina2000%40yahoo.com The Kenya ICT Action Network (KICTANet) is a multi-stakeholder platform for people and institutions interested and involved in ICT policy and regulation. The network aims to act as a catalyst for reform in the ICT sector in support of the national aim of ICT enabled growth and development. KICTANetiquette : Adhere to the same standards of acceptable behaviors online that you follow in real life: respect people's times and bandwidth, share knowledge, don't flame or abuse or personalize, respect privacy, do not spam, do not market your wares or qualifications.
Moral rights are not transferrable. On Mon, Nov 12, 2018 at 2:35 PM Patrick A. M. Maina via kictanet < kictanet@lists.kictanet.or.ke> wrote:
Heehe $12,000 for the "best" source code (including moral rights - so you will never get credited if its a big hit) is a complete joke imo.
I would urge local developers to be cautious about these competitions and approach them strategically.
For example, you can use these kind of competitions as idea triggers to (lawfully) get clues and inspiration on what problems need solving (*without* participating or signing up, as that potentially binds you to their T&Cs) - then form teams/coalitions to solve these problems independently for a much bigger potential payoff.
On policy these things are happening because there are glaring loopholes in our intellectual property laws that allow *IP mining* to take place without any restriction or consequences. Its literally a free for all.
Kenya needs an "Intellectual Property Resources Act", which would invalidate exploitative contracts / terms and conditions is long overdue. This is the kind of 21st Century legislation that can stimulate innovation and the creation of *high quality jobs* in Kenya.
21st Century resources include: 1. Attention or engagement (systems designed to distract people from contributing to economic activity) 2. Data (for mining/analytics or ML) 3. Source code, novel circuits, algorithms, chemical formulations, mixtures, blue prints (including business plans, pricing models etc). 4. Valuable ideas (e.g. "please call me") that cannot be protected via any combination of the old industrial era laws e.g. patents, copyright, UM & DM. 5. other?
Thanks for the heads up and Good day! Patrick.
On Monday, November 12, 2018, 2:01:43 PM GMT+3, Wainaina Mungai via kictanet <kictanet@lists.kictanet.or.ke> wrote:
Some developers are raising concerns privately that great initiatives such as Zindi are "cheaply buying AI code" from Africa https://zindi.africa/faq/data_scientists
According to them, "Zindi runs high-value expertise programming competitions/ hackathons in Kenya and Nigeria... and demands code in exchange for low pay prizes. It is unfairly low-cost labour for them."
See attached. Are their concerns valid?
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KICTANetiquette : Adhere to the same standards of acceptable behaviors online that you follow in real life: respect people's times and bandwidth, share knowledge, don't flame or abuse or personalize, respect privacy, do not spam, do not market your wares or qualifications. _______________________________________________ kictanet mailing list kictanet@lists.kictanet.or.ke https://lists.kictanet.or.ke/mailman/listinfo/kictanet Twitter: http://twitter.com/kictanet Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/KICTANet/ Domain Registration sponsored by www.eacdirectory.co.ke
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KICTANetiquette : Adhere to the same standards of acceptable behaviors online that you follow in real life: respect people's times and bandwidth, share knowledge, don't flame or abuse or personalize, respect privacy, do not spam, do not market your wares or qualifications.
-- <https://bernardkioko.com?promo=email_sig&utm_source=product&utm_medium=email_sig&utm_campaign=gmail_api&utm_content=thumb> Bernard Kioko bernardkioko.com <https://bernardkioko.com?promo=email_sig&utm_source=product&utm_medium=email_sig&utm_campaign=gmail_api&utm_content=thumb>
They can be contractually waived, which is a legal loophole with essentially has similar effect to the creator (specifically the *loss* of moral rights). "The Entrant User hereby waives any moral rights in and to the winning solution code (including but not limited to any rights to claim authorship of the code and any rights to object to any distortion, mutilation or other modification of the code) in favour of Zindi (or the Host User, as nominated by Zindi) and Zindi’s successors in title." On Monday, November 12, 2018, 2:40:01 PM GMT+3, Bernard Kioko <bkioko@bernsoft.com> wrote: Moral rights are not transferrable. On Mon, Nov 12, 2018 at 2:35 PM Patrick A. M. Maina via kictanet <kictanet@lists.kictanet.or.ke> wrote: Heehe $12,000 for the "best" source code (including moral rights - so you will never get credited if its a big hit) is a complete joke imo. I would urge local developers to be cautious about these competitions and approach them strategically. For example, you can use these kind of competitions as idea triggers to (lawfully) get clues and inspiration on what problems need solving (*without* participating or signing up, as that potentially binds you to their T&Cs) - then form teams/coalitions to solve these problems independently for a much bigger potential payoff. On policy these things are happening because there are glaring loopholes in our intellectual property laws that allow *IP mining* to take place without any restriction or consequences. Its literally a free for all. Kenya needs an "Intellectual Property Resources Act", which would invalidate exploitative contracts / terms and conditions is long overdue. This is the kind of 21st Century legislation that can stimulate innovation and the creation of *high quality jobs* in Kenya. 21st Century resources include: 1. Attention or engagement (systems designed to distract people from contributing to economic activity) 2. Data (for mining/analytics or ML)3. Source code, novel circuits, algorithms, chemical formulations, mixtures, blue prints (including business plans, pricing models etc).4. Valuable ideas (e.g. "please call me") that cannot be protected via any combination of the old industrial era laws e.g. patents, copyright, UM & DM.5. other? Thanks for the heads up and Good day!Patrick. On Monday, November 12, 2018, 2:01:43 PM GMT+3, Wainaina Mungai via kictanet <kictanet@lists.kictanet.or.ke> wrote: Some developers are raising concerns privately that great initiatives such as Zindi are "cheaply buying AI code" from Africa https://zindi.africa/faq/data_scientists According to them, "Zindi runs high-value expertise programming competitions/ hackathons in Kenya and Nigeria... and demands code in exchange for low pay prizes. It is unfairly low-cost labour for them." See attached. Are their concerns valid? _______________________________________________ kictanet mailing list kictanet@lists.kictanet.or.ke https://lists.kictanet.or.ke/mailman/listinfo/kictanet Twitter: http://twitter.com/kictanet Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/KICTANet/ Domain Registration sponsored by www.eacdirectory.co.ke Unsubscribe or change your options at https://lists.kictanet.or.ke/mailman/options/kictanet/pmaina2000%40yahoo.com The Kenya ICT Action Network (KICTANet) is a multi-stakeholder platform for people and institutions interested and involved in ICT policy and regulation. The network aims to act as a catalyst for reform in the ICT sector in support of the national aim of ICT enabled growth and development. KICTANetiquette : Adhere to the same standards of acceptable behaviors online that you follow in real life: respect people's times and bandwidth, share knowledge, don't flame or abuse or personalize, respect privacy, do not spam, do not market your wares or qualifications. _______________________________________________ kictanet mailing list kictanet@lists.kictanet.or.ke https://lists.kictanet.or.ke/mailman/listinfo/kictanet Twitter: http://twitter.com/kictanet Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/KICTANet/ Domain Registration sponsored by www.eacdirectory.co.ke Unsubscribe or change your options at https://lists.kictanet.or.ke/mailman/options/kictanet/bkioko%40bernsoft.com The Kenya ICT Action Network (KICTANet) is a multi-stakeholder platform for people and institutions interested and involved in ICT policy and regulation. The network aims to act as a catalyst for reform in the ICT sector in support of the national aim of ICT enabled growth and development. KICTANetiquette : Adhere to the same standards of acceptable behaviors online that you follow in real life: respect people's times and bandwidth, share knowledge, don't flame or abuse or personalize, respect privacy, do not spam, do not market your wares or qualifications. -- | | Bernard Kioko bernardkioko.com |
Hi Wainaina and listers, Unfortunately we don't have a culture of rewarding local innovations and pumping billions into local Research and Development. The global north has noticed the talent that abounds locally and is not hesitating in tapping into it. I wish we could invest more into our Vocational Institutions and provide funding that would help our innovators in the Jua Kali space to scale up. That said i would be curious to hear what ndugu Ali who has been involved in the start up phase or Harry Hare have to say since i consider them authorities in the space. Regards On 11/12/18, Bernard Kioko via kictanet <kictanet@lists.kictanet.or.ke> wrote:
Moral rights are not transferrable.
On Mon, Nov 12, 2018 at 2:35 PM Patrick A. M. Maina via kictanet < kictanet@lists.kictanet.or.ke> wrote:
Heehe $12,000 for the "best" source code (including moral rights - so you will never get credited if its a big hit) is a complete joke imo.
I would urge local developers to be cautious about these competitions and approach them strategically.
For example, you can use these kind of competitions as idea triggers to (lawfully) get clues and inspiration on what problems need solving (*without* participating or signing up, as that potentially binds you to their T&Cs) - then form teams/coalitions to solve these problems independently for a much bigger potential payoff.
On policy these things are happening because there are glaring loopholes in our intellectual property laws that allow *IP mining* to take place without any restriction or consequences. Its literally a free for all.
Kenya needs an "Intellectual Property Resources Act", which would invalidate exploitative contracts / terms and conditions is long overdue. This is the kind of 21st Century legislation that can stimulate innovation and the creation of *high quality jobs* in Kenya.
21st Century resources include: 1. Attention or engagement (systems designed to distract people from contributing to economic activity) 2. Data (for mining/analytics or ML) 3. Source code, novel circuits, algorithms, chemical formulations, mixtures, blue prints (including business plans, pricing models etc). 4. Valuable ideas (e.g. "please call me") that cannot be protected via any combination of the old industrial era laws e.g. patents, copyright, UM & DM. 5. other?
Thanks for the heads up and Good day! Patrick.
On Monday, November 12, 2018, 2:01:43 PM GMT+3, Wainaina Mungai via kictanet <kictanet@lists.kictanet.or.ke> wrote:
Some developers are raising concerns privately that great initiatives such as Zindi are "cheaply buying AI code" from Africa https://zindi.africa/faq/data_scientists
According to them, "Zindi runs high-value expertise programming competitions/ hackathons in Kenya and Nigeria... and demands code in exchange for low pay prizes. It is unfairly low-cost labour for them."
See attached. Are their concerns valid?
_______________________________________________ kictanet mailing list kictanet@lists.kictanet.or.ke https://lists.kictanet.or.ke/mailman/listinfo/kictanet Twitter: http://twitter.com/kictanet Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/KICTANet/ Domain Registration sponsored by www.eacdirectory.co.ke
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The Kenya ICT Action Network (KICTANet) is a multi-stakeholder platform for people and institutions interested and involved in ICT policy and regulation. The network aims to act as a catalyst for reform in the ICT sector in support of the national aim of ICT enabled growth and development.
KICTANetiquette : Adhere to the same standards of acceptable behaviors online that you follow in real life: respect people's times and bandwidth, share knowledge, don't flame or abuse or personalize, respect privacy, do not spam, do not market your wares or qualifications. _______________________________________________ kictanet mailing list kictanet@lists.kictanet.or.ke https://lists.kictanet.or.ke/mailman/listinfo/kictanet Twitter: http://twitter.com/kictanet Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/KICTANet/ Domain Registration sponsored by www.eacdirectory.co.ke
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The Kenya ICT Action Network (KICTANet) is a multi-stakeholder platform for people and institutions interested and involved in ICT policy and regulation. The network aims to act as a catalyst for reform in the ICT sector in support of the national aim of ICT enabled growth and development.
KICTANetiquette : Adhere to the same standards of acceptable behaviors online that you follow in real life: respect people's times and bandwidth, share knowledge, don't flame or abuse or personalize, respect privacy, do not spam, do not market your wares or qualifications.
-- <https://bernardkioko.com?promo=email_sig&utm_source=product&utm_medium=email_sig&utm_campaign=gmail_api&utm_content=thumb> Bernard Kioko bernardkioko.com <https://bernardkioko.com?promo=email_sig&utm_source=product&utm_medium=email_sig&utm_campaign=gmail_api&utm_content=thumb>
-- Barrack O. Otieno +254721325277 +254733206359 Skype: barrack.otieno PGP ID: 0x2611D86A
Just to add to the debate: A BBC story on AI outsourcing in Kenya WHY BIG TECH PAYS POOR KENYANS TO TEACH SELF DRIVING CARS ..... Brenda does this work for Samasource, a San Francisco-based company that counts Google, Microsoft, Salesforce and Yahoo among its clients. Most of these firms don't like to discuss the exact nature of their work with Samasource - as it is often for future projects - but it can be said that the information prepared here forms a crucial part of some of Silicon Valley's biggest and most famous efforts in AI. .. Samasource instead provides a living wage of around $9 a day. That's an improvement, but still a pittance for Silicon Valley. "Yes, it's cost effective," Janah said. "But one thing that's critical in our line of work is to not pay wages that would distort local labour markets. If we were to pay people substantially more than that, we would throw everything off. That would have a potentially negative impact on the cost of housing, the cost of food in the communities in which our workers thrive." https://www.bbc.com/news/technology-46055595 <https://www.bbc.com/news/technology-46055595> Il lunedì 12 novembre 2018, Barrack Otieno via kictanet < kictanet@lists.kictanet.or.ke> ha scritto:
Hi Wainaina and listers,
Unfortunately we don't have a culture of rewarding local innovations and pumping billions into local Research and Development. The global north has noticed the talent that abounds locally and is not hesitating in tapping into it. I wish we could invest more into our Vocational Institutions and provide funding that would help our innovators in the Jua Kali space to scale up. That said i would be curious to hear what ndugu Ali who has been involved in the start up phase or Harry Hare have to say since i consider them authorities in the space.
Regards
On 11/12/18, Bernard Kioko via kictanet <kictanet@lists.kictanet.or.ke> wrote:
Moral rights are not transferrable.
On Mon, Nov 12, 2018 at 2:35 PM Patrick A. M. Maina via kictanet < kictanet@lists.kictanet.or.ke> wrote:
Heehe $12,000 for the "best" source code (including moral rights - so you will never get credited if its a big hit) is a complete joke imo.
I would urge local developers to be cautious about these competitions and approach them strategically.
For example, you can use these kind of competitions as idea triggers to (lawfully) get clues and inspiration on what problems need solving (*without* participating or signing up, as that potentially binds you to their T&Cs) - then form teams/coalitions to solve these problems independently for a much bigger potential payoff.
On policy these things are happening because there are glaring loopholes in our intellectual property laws that allow *IP mining* to take place without any restriction or consequences. Its literally a free for all.
Kenya needs an "Intellectual Property Resources Act", which would invalidate exploitative contracts / terms and conditions is long overdue. This is the kind of 21st Century legislation that can stimulate innovation and the creation of *high quality jobs* in Kenya.
21st Century resources include: 1. Attention or engagement (systems designed to distract people from contributing to economic activity) 2. Data (for mining/analytics or ML) 3. Source code, novel circuits, algorithms, chemical formulations, mixtures, blue prints (including business plans, pricing models etc). 4. Valuable ideas (e.g. "please call me") that cannot be protected via any combination of the old industrial era laws e.g. patents, copyright, UM & DM. 5. other?
Thanks for the heads up and Good day! Patrick.
On Monday, November 12, 2018, 2:01:43 PM GMT+3, Wainaina Mungai via kictanet <kictanet@lists.kictanet.or.ke> wrote:
Some developers are raising concerns privately that great initiatives such as Zindi are "cheaply buying AI code" from Africa https://zindi.africa/faq/data_scientists
According to them, "Zindi runs high-value expertise programming competitions/ hackathons in Kenya and Nigeria... and demands code in exchange for low pay prizes. It is unfairly low-cost labour for them."
See attached. Are their concerns valid?
_______________________________________________ kictanet mailing list kictanet@lists.kictanet.or.ke https://lists.kictanet.or.ke/mailman/listinfo/kictanet Twitter: http://twitter.com/kictanet Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/KICTANet/ Domain Registration sponsored by www.eacdirectory.co.ke
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The Kenya ICT Action Network (KICTANet) is a multi-stakeholder platform for people and institutions interested and involved in ICT policy and regulation. The network aims to act as a catalyst for reform in the ICT sector in support of the national aim of ICT enabled growth and development.
KICTANetiquette : Adhere to the same standards of acceptable behaviors online that you follow in real life: respect people's times and bandwidth, share knowledge, don't flame or abuse or personalize, respect privacy, do not spam, do not market your wares or qualifications. _______________________________________________ kictanet mailing list kictanet@lists.kictanet.or.ke https://lists.kictanet.or.ke/mailman/listinfo/kictanet Twitter: http://twitter.com/kictanet Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/KICTANet/ Domain Registration sponsored by www.eacdirectory.co.ke
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The Kenya ICT Action Network (KICTANet) is a multi-stakeholder platform for people and institutions interested and involved in ICT policy and regulation. The network aims to act as a catalyst for reform in the ICT sector in support of the national aim of ICT enabled growth and development.
KICTANetiquette : Adhere to the same standards of acceptable behaviors online that you follow in real life: respect people's times and bandwidth, share knowledge, don't flame or abuse or personalize, respect privacy, do not spam, do not market your wares or qualifications.
-- <https://bernardkioko.com?promo=email_sig&utm_source=product &utm_medium=email_sig&utm_campaign=gmail_api&utm_content=thumb> Bernard Kioko bernardkioko.com <https://bernardkioko.com?promo=email_sig&utm_source=product &utm_medium=email_sig&utm_campaign=gmail_api&utm_content=thumb>
-- Barrack O. Otieno +254721325277 +254733206359 Skype: barrack.otieno PGP ID: 0x2611D86A
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The Kenya ICT Action Network (KICTANet) is a multi-stakeholder platform for people and institutions interested and involved in ICT policy and regulation. The network aims to act as a catalyst for reform in the ICT sector in support of the national aim of ICT enabled growth and development.
KICTANetiquette : Adhere to the same standards of acceptable behaviors online that you follow in real life: respect people's times and bandwidth, share knowledge, don't flame or abuse or personalize, respect privacy, do not spam, do not market your wares or qualifications.
-- Grace Mutung'u Skype: gracebomu @Bomu PGP ID : 0x33A3450F
@Grace & listers, AI training is a totally new industry in Kenya, literally creating a new type of jobs that didn't exist (which is a very good thing). There is no salary baseline - and from that perspective, its hard to tell whether $9 a day is fair or not. I think this one has hidden value (besides pay) - in that is a rare opportunity for Kenyans to *learn* about the data/training side of AI - possibly as an inspiration for developing (or consulting for) home-grown AI startups in the future. If I were in my twenties (or an ICT student), I would probably apply and work there for 1-3 months just to get a good feel of the real state of applied AI, and to see whether working there will inspire some fresh/creative ideas to solve problems our local context. Great for entry level launchpad jobs but just don't plan to make a career of it (as soon as AI training can get automated, it will be). Brgds, Patrick. On Monday, November 12, 2018, 4:34:52 PM GMT+3, Grace Bomu via kictanet <kictanet@lists.kictanet.or.ke> wrote: Just to add to the debate: A BBC story on AI outsourcing in KenyaWHY BIG TECH PAYS POOR KENYANS TO TEACH SELF DRIVING CARS..... Brenda does this work for Samasource, a San Francisco-based company that counts Google, Microsoft, Salesforce and Yahoo among its clients. Most of these firms don't like to discuss the exact nature of their work with Samasource - as it is often for future projects - but it can be said that the information prepared here forms a crucial part of some of Silicon Valley's biggest and most famous efforts in AI...Samasource instead provides a living wage of around $9 a day. That's an improvement, but still a pittance for Silicon Valley. "Yes, it's cost effective," Janah said. "But one thing that's critical in our line of work is to not pay wages that would distort local labour markets. If we were to pay people substantially more than that, we would throw everything off. That would have a potentially negative impact on the cost of housing, the cost of food in the communities in which our workers thrive." https://www.bbc.com/news/ technology-46055595 Il lunedì 12 novembre 2018, Barrack Otieno via kictanet <kictanet@lists.kictanet.or.ke > ha scritto: Hi Wainaina and listers, Unfortunately we don't have a culture of rewarding local innovations and pumping billions into local Research and Development. The global north has noticed the talent that abounds locally and is not hesitating in tapping into it. I wish we could invest more into our Vocational Institutions and provide funding that would help our innovators in the Jua Kali space to scale up. That said i would be curious to hear what ndugu Ali who has been involved in the start up phase or Harry Hare have to say since i consider them authorities in the space. Regards On 11/12/18, Bernard Kioko via kictanet <kictanet@lists.kictanet.or.ke > wrote:
Moral rights are not transferrable.
On Mon, Nov 12, 2018 at 2:35 PM Patrick A. M. Maina via kictanet < kictanet@lists.kictanet.or.ke> wrote:
Heehe $12,000 for the "best" source code (including moral rights - so you will never get credited if its a big hit) is a complete joke imo.
I would urge local developers to be cautious about these competitions and approach them strategically.
For example, you can use these kind of competitions as idea triggers to (lawfully) get clues and inspiration on what problems need solving (*without* participating or signing up, as that potentially binds you to their T&Cs) - then form teams/coalitions to solve these problems independently for a much bigger potential payoff.
On policy these things are happening because there are glaring loopholes in our intellectual property laws that allow *IP mining* to take place without any restriction or consequences. Its literally a free for all.
Kenya needs an "Intellectual Property Resources Act", which would invalidate exploitative contracts / terms and conditions is long overdue. This is the kind of 21st Century legislation that can stimulate innovation and the creation of *high quality jobs* in Kenya.
21st Century resources include: 1. Attention or engagement (systems designed to distract people from contributing to economic activity) 2. Data (for mining/analytics or ML) 3. Source code, novel circuits, algorithms, chemical formulations, mixtures, blue prints (including business plans, pricing models etc). 4. Valuable ideas (e.g. "please call me") that cannot be protected via any combination of the old industrial era laws e.g. patents, copyright, UM & DM. 5. other?
Thanks for the heads up and Good day! Patrick.
On Monday, November 12, 2018, 2:01:43 PM GMT+3, Wainaina Mungai via kictanet <kictanet@lists.kictanet.or.ke > wrote:
Some developers are raising concerns privately that great initiatives such as Zindi are "cheaply buying AI code" from Africa https://zindi.africa/faq/data_ scientists
According to them, "Zindi runs high-value expertise programming competitions/ hackathons in Kenya and Nigeria... and demands code in exchange for low pay prizes. It is unfairly low-cost labour for them."
See attached. Are their concerns valid?
______________________________ _________________ kictanet mailing list kictanet@lists.kictanet.or.ke https://lists.kictanet.or.ke/m ailman/listinfo/kictanet Twitter: http://twitter.com/kictanet Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/KICTA Net/ Domain Registration sponsored by www.eacdirectory.co.ke
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KICTANetiquette : Adhere to the same standards of acceptable behaviors online that you follow in real life: respect people's times and bandwidth, share knowledge, don't flame or abuse or personalize, respect privacy, do not spam, do not market your wares or qualifications. ______________________________ _________________ kictanet mailing list kictanet@lists.kictanet.or.ke https://lists.kictanet.or.ke/m ailman/listinfo/kictanet Twitter: http://twitter.com/kictanet Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/KICTA Net/ Domain Registration sponsored by www.eacdirectory.co.ke
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-- Barrack O. Otieno +254721325277 +254733206359 Skype: barrack.otieno PGP ID: 0x2611D86A ______________________________ _________________ kictanet mailing list kictanet@lists.kictanet.or.ke https://lists.kictanet.or.ke/m ailman/listinfo/kictanet Twitter: http://twitter.com/kictanet Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/KICTA Net/ Domain Registration sponsored by www.eacdirectory.co.ke Unsubscribe or change your options at https://lists.kictanet.or.ke/m ailman/options/kictanet/nmutun gu%40gmail.com The Kenya ICT Action Network (KICTANet) is a multi-stakeholder platform for people and institutions interested and involved in ICT policy and regulation. The network aims to act as a catalyst for reform in the ICT sector in support of the national aim of ICT enabled growth and development. KICTANetiquette : Adhere to the same standards of acceptable behaviors online that you follow in real life: respect people's times and bandwidth, share knowledge, don't flame or abuse or personalize, respect privacy, do not spam, do not market your wares or qualifications. -- Grace Mutung'u Skype: gracebomu @Bomu PGP ID : 0x33A3450F _______________________________________________ kictanet mailing list kictanet@lists.kictanet.or.ke https://lists.kictanet.or.ke/mailman/listinfo/kictanet Twitter: http://twitter.com/kictanet Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/KICTANet/ Domain Registration sponsored by www.eacdirectory.co.ke Unsubscribe or change your options at https://lists.kictanet.or.ke/mailman/options/kictanet/pmaina2000%40yahoo.com The Kenya ICT Action Network (KICTANet) is a multi-stakeholder platform for people and institutions interested and involved in ICT policy and regulation. The network aims to act as a catalyst for reform in the ICT sector in support of the national aim of ICT enabled growth and development. KICTANetiquette : Adhere to the same standards of acceptable behaviors online that you follow in real life: respect people's times and bandwidth, share knowledge, don't flame or abuse or personalize, respect privacy, do not spam, do not market your wares or qualifications.
Hi Barrack and Listers, I fully agree with this opinion, but before we throw rocks, let's remember charity starts at home. It is quite vital to raise local standards and awareness on dev and engineering skills plus the remuneration package that comes with being very skilled in niche sectors. The global marketplace would be a good starting point but there are certain 'barriers of entry' so to speak. If local companies pay software developers 15k a month to tirelessly slog over code, why would a Silicon Valley start-up come in and pay the chap over 20 times that? Yes, that would be the ethical thing to do but most companies do not run on ethics. They run on P&L. There's a reason low tier supply chain manufacturing jobs are shifting to Vietnam, Ethiopia and Bangladesh and away from the traditional hubs... Regards Clifford From: kictanet <kictanet-bounces+clifford.derrick=liquidtelecom.com@lists.kictanet.or.ke> On Behalf Of Barrack Otieno via kictanet Sent: 12 November 2018 14:58 To: Clifford Derrick <clifford.derrick@liquidtelecom.com> Cc: Barrack Otieno <otieno.barrack@gmail.com> Subject: Re: [kictanet] Cheap AI coding labour? Hi Wainaina and listers, Unfortunately we don't have a culture of rewarding local innovations and pumping billions into local Research and Development. The global north has noticed the talent that abounds locally and is not hesitating in tapping into it. I wish we could invest more into our Vocational Institutions and provide funding that would help our innovators in the Jua Kali space to scale up. That said i would be curious to hear what ndugu Ali who has been involved in the start up phase or Harry Hare have to say since i consider them authorities in the space. Regards On 11/12/18, Bernard Kioko via kictanet <kictanet@lists.kictanet.or.ke<mailto:kictanet@lists.kictanet.or.ke>> wrote:
Moral rights are not transferrable.
On Mon, Nov 12, 2018 at 2:35 PM Patrick A. M. Maina via kictanet < kictanet@lists.kictanet.or.ke<mailto:kictanet@lists.kictanet.or.ke>> wrote:
Heehe $12,000 for the "best" source code (including moral rights - so you will never get credited if its a big hit) is a complete joke imo.
I would urge local developers to be cautious about these competitions and approach them strategically.
For example, you can use these kind of competitions as idea triggers to (lawfully) get clues and inspiration on what problems need solving (*without* participating or signing up, as that potentially binds you to their T&Cs) - then form teams/coalitions to solve these problems independently for a much bigger potential payoff.
On policy these things are happening because there are glaring loopholes in our intellectual property laws that allow *IP mining* to take place without any restriction or consequences. Its literally a free for all.
Kenya needs an "Intellectual Property Resources Act", which would invalidate exploitative contracts / terms and conditions is long overdue. This is the kind of 21st Century legislation that can stimulate innovation and the creation of *high quality jobs* in Kenya.
21st Century resources include: 1. Attention or engagement (systems designed to distract people from contributing to economic activity) 2. Data (for mining/analytics or ML) 3. Source code, novel circuits, algorithms, chemical formulations, mixtures, blue prints (including business plans, pricing models etc). 4. Valuable ideas (e.g. "please call me") that cannot be protected via any combination of the old industrial era laws e.g. patents, copyright, UM & DM. 5. other?
Thanks for the heads up and Good day! Patrick.
On Monday, November 12, 2018, 2:01:43 PM GMT+3, Wainaina Mungai via kictanet <kictanet@lists.kictanet.or.ke<mailto:kictanet@lists.kictanet.or.ke>> wrote:
Some developers are raising concerns privately that great initiatives such as Zindi are "cheaply buying AI code" from Africa https://zindi.africa/faq/data_scientists
According to them, "Zindi runs high-value expertise programming competitions/ hackathons in Kenya and Nigeria... and demands code in exchange for low pay prizes. It is unfairly low-cost labour for them."
See attached. Are their concerns valid?
_______________________________________________ kictanet mailing list kictanet@lists.kictanet.or.ke<mailto:kictanet@lists.kictanet.or.ke> https://lists.kictanet.or.ke/mailman/listinfo/kictanet<https://lists.kictanet.or.ke/mailman/listinfo/kictanet> Twitter: http://twitter.com/kictanet<http://twitter.com/kictanet> Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/KICTANet/<https://www.facebook.com/KICTANet/> Domain Registration sponsored by www.eacdirectory.co.ke<http://www.eacdirectory.co.ke>
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The Kenya ICT Action Network (KICTANet) is a multi-stakeholder platform for people and institutions interested and involved in ICT policy and regulation. The network aims to act as a catalyst for reform in the ICT sector in support of the national aim of ICT enabled growth and development.
KICTANetiquette : Adhere to the same standards of acceptable behaviors online that you follow in real life: respect people's times and bandwidth, share knowledge, don't flame or abuse or personalize, respect privacy, do not spam, do not market your wares or qualifications. _______________________________________________ kictanet mailing list kictanet@lists.kictanet.or.ke<mailto:kictanet@lists.kictanet.or.ke> https://lists.kictanet.or.ke/mailman/listinfo/kictanet<https://lists.kictanet.or.ke/mailman/listinfo/kictanet> Twitter: http://twitter.com/kictanet<http://twitter.com/kictanet> Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/KICTANet/<https://www.facebook.com/KICTANet/> Domain Registration sponsored by www.eacdirectory.co.ke<http://www.eacdirectory.co.ke>
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The Kenya ICT Action Network (KICTANet) is a multi-stakeholder platform for people and institutions interested and involved in ICT policy and regulation. The network aims to act as a catalyst for reform in the ICT sector in support of the national aim of ICT enabled growth and development.
KICTANetiquette : Adhere to the same standards of acceptable behaviors online that you follow in real life: respect people's times and bandwidth, share knowledge, don't flame or abuse or personalize, respect privacy, do not spam, do not market your wares or qualifications.
-- <https://bernardkioko.com?promo=email_sig&utm_source=product&utm_medium=email_sig&utm_campaign=gmail_api&utm_content=thumb<https://bernardkioko.com?promo=email_sig&utm_source=product&utm_medium=email_sig&utm_campaign=gmail_api&utm_content=thumb>> Bernard Kioko bernardkioko.com <https://bernardkioko.com?promo=email_sig&utm_source=product&utm_medium=email_sig&utm_campaign=gmail_api&utm_content=thumb<https://bernardkioko.com?promo=email_sig&utm_source=product&utm_medium=email_sig&utm_campaign=gmail_api&utm_content=thumb>>
-- Barrack O. Otieno +254721325277 +254733206359 Skype: barrack.otieno PGP ID: 0x2611D86A _______________________________________________ kictanet mailing list kictanet@lists.kictanet.or.ke<mailto:kictanet@lists.kictanet.or.ke> https://lists.kictanet.or.ke/mailman/listinfo/kictanet<https://lists.kictanet.or.ke/mailman/listinfo/kictanet> Twitter: http://twitter.com/kictanet<http://twitter.com/kictanet> Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/KICTANet/<https://www.facebook.com/KICTANet/> Domain Registration sponsored by www.eacdirectory.co.ke<http://www.eacdirectory.co.ke> Unsubscribe or change your options at https://lists.kictanet.or.ke/mailman/options/kictanet/clifford.derrick@liquidtelecom.com<https://lists.kictanet.or.ke/mailman/options/kictanet/clifford.derrick@liquidtelecom.com> The Kenya ICT Action Network (KICTANet) is a multi-stakeholder platform for people and institutions interested and involved in ICT policy and regulation. The network aims to act as a catalyst for reform in the ICT sector in support of the national aim of ICT enabled growth and development. KICTANetiquette : Adhere to the same standards of acceptable behaviors online that you follow in real life: respect people's times and bandwidth, share knowledge, don't flame or abuse or personalize, respect privacy, do not spam, do not market your wares or qualifications.
We need to up the game on awareness. Great Software development skillsets are hard to come by and especially rare. Global market places exist that great coders can join and sell their skills globally. In 2018 we should not be talking about local or global. We should be educating our people not just to code but how to market their skills globally. Ali Hussein +254 0713 601113 Twitter: @AliHKassim Skype: abu-jomo LinkedIn: http://ke.linkedin.com/in/alihkassim Blog: www.alyhussein.com "Discovery consists in seeing what everyone else has seen and thinking what no one else has thought". ~ Albert Szent-Györgyi Sent from my iPad
On 12 Nov 2018, at 3:52 PM, Clifford Derrick via kictanet <kictanet@lists.kictanet.or.ke> wrote:
Hi Barrack and Listers,
I fully agree with this opinion, but before we throw rocks, let’s remember charity starts at home.
It is quite vital to raise local standards and awareness on dev and engineering skills plus the remuneration package that comes with being very skilled in niche sectors. The global marketplace would be a good starting point but there are certain ‘barriers of entry’ so to speak. If local companies pay software developers 15k a month to tirelessly slog over code, why would a Silicon Valley start-up come in and pay the chap over 20 times that? Yes, that would be the ethical thing to do but most companies do not run on ethics. They run on P&L. There’s a reason low tier supply chain manufacturing jobs are shifting to Vietnam, Ethiopia and Bangladesh and away from the traditional hubs…
Regards Clifford
From: kictanet <kictanet-bounces+clifford.derrick=liquidtelecom.com@lists.kictanet.or.ke> On Behalf Of Barrack Otieno via kictanet Sent: 12 November 2018 14:58 To: Clifford Derrick <clifford.derrick@liquidtelecom.com> Cc: Barrack Otieno <otieno.barrack@gmail.com> Subject: Re: [kictanet] Cheap AI coding labour?
Hi Wainaina and listers,
Unfortunately we don't have a culture of rewarding local innovations and pumping billions into local Research and Development. The global north has noticed the talent that abounds locally and is not hesitating in tapping into it. I wish we could invest more into our Vocational Institutions and provide funding that would help our innovators in the Jua Kali space to scale up. That said i would be curious to hear what ndugu Ali who has been involved in the start up phase or Harry Hare have to say since i consider them authorities in the space.
Regards
On 11/12/18, Bernard Kioko via kictanet <kictanet@lists.kictanet.or.ke> wrote:
Moral rights are not transferrable.
On Mon, Nov 12, 2018 at 2:35 PM Patrick A. M. Maina via kictanet < kictanet@lists.kictanet.or.ke> wrote:
Heehe $12,000 for the "best" source code (including moral rights - so you will never get credited if its a big hit) is a complete joke imo.
I would urge local developers to be cautious about these competitions and approach them strategically.
For example, you can use these kind of competitions as idea triggers to (lawfully) get clues and inspiration on what problems need solving (*without* participating or signing up, as that potentially binds you to their T&Cs) - then form teams/coalitions to solve these problems independently for a much bigger potential payoff.
On policy these things are happening because there are glaring loopholes in our intellectual property laws that allow *IP mining* to take place without any restriction or consequences. Its literally a free for all.
Kenya needs an "Intellectual Property Resources Act", which would invalidate exploitative contracts / terms and conditions is long overdue. This is the kind of 21st Century legislation that can stimulate innovation and the creation of *high quality jobs* in Kenya.
21st Century resources include: 1. Attention or engagement (systems designed to distract people from contributing to economic activity) 2. Data (for mining/analytics or ML) 3. Source code, novel circuits, algorithms, chemical formulations, mixtures, blue prints (including business plans, pricing models etc). 4. Valuable ideas (e.g. "please call me") that cannot be protected via any combination of the old industrial era laws e.g. patents, copyright, UM & DM. 5. other?
Thanks for the heads up and Good day! Patrick.
On Monday, November 12, 2018, 2:01:43 PM GMT+3, Wainaina Mungai via kictanet <kictanet@lists.kictanet.or.ke> wrote:
Some developers are raising concerns privately that great initiatives such as Zindi are "cheaply buying AI code" from Africa https://zindi.africa/faq/data_scientists
According to them, "Zindi runs high-value expertise programming competitions/ hackathons in Kenya and Nigeria... and demands code in exchange for low pay prizes. It is unfairly low-cost labour for them."
See attached. Are their concerns valid?
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KICTANetiquette : Adhere to the same standards of acceptable behaviors online that you follow in real life: respect people's times and bandwidth, share knowledge, don't flame or abuse or personalize, respect privacy, do not spam, do not market your wares or qualifications. _______________________________________________ kictanet mailing list kictanet@lists.kictanet.or.ke https://lists.kictanet.or.ke/mailman/listinfo/kictanet Twitter: http://twitter.com/kictanet Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/KICTANet/ Domain Registration sponsored by www.eacdirectory.co.ke
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KICTANetiquette : Adhere to the same standards of acceptable behaviors online that you follow in real life: respect people's times and bandwidth, share knowledge, don't flame or abuse or personalize, respect privacy, do not spam, do not market your wares or qualifications.
-- <https://bernardkioko.com?promo=email_sig&utm_source=product&utm_medium=email_sig&utm_campaign=gmail_api&utm_content=thumb> Bernard Kioko bernardkioko.com <https://bernardkioko.com?promo=email_sig&utm_source=product&utm_medium=email_sig&utm_campaign=gmail_api&utm_content=thumb>
-- Barrack O. Otieno +254721325277 +254733206359 Skype: barrack.otieno PGP ID: 0x2611D86A
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KICTANetiquette : Adhere to the same standards of acceptable behaviors online that you follow in real life: respect people's times and bandwidth, share knowledge, don't flame or abuse or personalize, respect privacy, do not spam, do not market your wares or qualifications. _______________________________________________ kictanet mailing list kictanet@lists.kictanet.or.ke https://lists.kictanet.or.ke/mailman/listinfo/kictanet Twitter: http://twitter.com/kictanet Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/KICTANet/ Domain Registration sponsored by www.eacdirectory.co.ke
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The Kenya ICT Action Network (KICTANet) is a multi-stakeholder platform for people and institutions interested and involved in ICT policy and regulation. The network aims to act as a catalyst for reform in the ICT sector in support of the national aim of ICT enabled growth and development.
KICTANetiquette : Adhere to the same standards of acceptable behaviors online that you follow in real life: respect people's times and bandwidth, share knowledge, don't flame or abuse or personalize, respect privacy, do not spam, do not market your wares or qualifications.
Just (very briefly) looked at the Samasource profile. They seem to be an educational non profit. Skills developed are applied to generate income (intelligence) for their clients + relevant experience (exposure) for their willing subjects/students. For 20 years now, have observed (researched) career progression of a good number of technologists in East Africa. Can say without reservation, the very few who become solid entrepreneurs (if not investors) over time (5 to 7 years) prefer (are convinced by their value system) to work with locals, for our market (not the same as working in multi nationals). It is simply a matter of choice. On Tue, Nov 13, 2018 at 8:00 AM Clifford Derrick via kictanet < kictanet@lists.kictanet.or.ke> wrote:
Hi Barrack and Listers,
I fully agree with this opinion, but before we throw rocks, let’s remember charity starts at home.
It is quite vital to raise local standards and awareness on dev and engineering skills plus the remuneration package that comes with being very skilled in niche sectors. The global marketplace would be a good starting point but there are certain ‘barriers of entry’ so to speak. If local companies pay software developers 15k a month to tirelessly slog over code, why would a Silicon Valley start-up come in and pay the chap over 20 times that? Yes, that would be the ethical thing to do but most companies do not run on ethics. They run on P&L. There’s a reason low tier supply chain manufacturing jobs are shifting to Vietnam, Ethiopia and Bangladesh and away from the traditional hubs…
Regards
Clifford
*From:* kictanet <kictanet-bounces+clifford.derrick= liquidtelecom.com@lists.kictanet.or.ke> *On Behalf Of *Barrack Otieno via kictanet *Sent:* 12 November 2018 14:58 *To:* Clifford Derrick <clifford.derrick@liquidtelecom.com> *Cc:* Barrack Otieno <otieno.barrack@gmail.com> *Subject:* Re: [kictanet] Cheap AI coding labour?
Hi Wainaina and listers,
Unfortunately we don't have a culture of rewarding local innovations and pumping billions into local Research and Development. The global north has noticed the talent that abounds locally and is not hesitating in tapping into it. I wish we could invest more into our Vocational Institutions and provide funding that would help our innovators in the Jua Kali space to scale up. That said i would be curious to hear what ndugu Ali who has been involved in the start up phase or Harry Hare have to say since i consider them authorities in the space.
Regards
On 11/12/18, Bernard Kioko via kictanet <kictanet@lists.kictanet.or.ke> wrote:
Moral rights are not transferrable.
On Mon, Nov 12, 2018 at 2:35 PM Patrick A. M. Maina via kictanet < kictanet@lists.kictanet.or.ke> wrote:
Heehe $12,000 for the "best" source code (including moral rights - so you will never get credited if its a big hit) is a complete joke imo.
I would urge local developers to be cautious about these competitions and approach them strategically.
For example, you can use these kind of competitions as idea triggers to (lawfully) get clues and inspiration on what problems need solving (*without* participating or signing up, as that potentially binds you to their T&Cs) - then form teams/coalitions to solve these problems independently for a much bigger potential payoff.
On policy these things are happening because there are glaring loopholes in our intellectual property laws that allow *IP mining* to take place without any restriction or consequences. Its literally a free for all.
Kenya needs an "Intellectual Property Resources Act", which would invalidate exploitative contracts / terms and conditions is long overdue. This is the kind of 21st Century legislation that can stimulate innovation and the creation of *high quality jobs* in Kenya.
21st Century resources include: 1. Attention or engagement (systems designed to distract people from contributing to economic activity) 2. Data (for mining/analytics or ML) 3. Source code, novel circuits, algorithms, chemical formulations, mixtures, blue prints (including business plans, pricing models etc). 4. Valuable ideas (e.g. "please call me") that cannot be protected via any combination of the old industrial era laws e.g. patents, copyright, UM & DM. 5. other?
Thanks for the heads up and Good day! Patrick.
On Monday, November 12, 2018, 2:01:43 PM GMT+3, Wainaina Mungai via kictanet <kictanet@lists.kictanet.or.ke> wrote:
Some developers are raising concerns privately that great initiatives such as Zindi are "cheaply buying AI code" from Africa https://zindi.africa/faq/data_scientists
According to them, "Zindi runs high-value expertise programming competitions/ hackathons in Kenya and Nigeria... and demands code in exchange for low pay prizes. It is unfairly low-cost labour for them."
See attached. Are their concerns valid?
_______________________________________________ kictanet mailing list kictanet@lists.kictanet.or.ke https://lists.kictanet.or.ke/mailman/listinfo/kictanet Twitter: http://twitter.com/kictanet Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/KICTANet/ Domain Registration sponsored by www.eacdirectory.co.ke
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KICTANetiquette : Adhere to the same standards of acceptable behaviors online that you follow in real life: respect people's times and bandwidth, share knowledge, don't flame or abuse or personalize, respect privacy,
do
not spam, do not market your wares or qualifications. _______________________________________________ kictanet mailing list kictanet@lists.kictanet.or.ke https://lists.kictanet.or.ke/mailman/listinfo/kictanet Twitter: http://twitter.com/kictanet Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/KICTANet/ Domain Registration sponsored by www.eacdirectory.co.ke
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KICTANetiquette : Adhere to the same standards of acceptable behaviors online that you follow in real life: respect people's times and bandwidth, share knowledge, don't flame or abuse or personalize, respect privacy,
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KICTANetiquette : Adhere to the same standards of acceptable behaviors online that you follow in real life: respect people's times and bandwidth, share knowledge, don't flame or abuse or personalize, respect privacy, do not spam, do not market your wares or qualifications. _______________________________________________ kictanet mailing list kictanet@lists.kictanet.or.ke https://lists.kictanet.or.ke/mailman/listinfo/kictanet Twitter: http://twitter.com/kictanet Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/KICTANet/ Domain Registration sponsored by www.eacdirectory.co.ke
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KICTANetiquette : Adhere to the same standards of acceptable behaviors online that you follow in real life: respect people's times and bandwidth, share knowledge, don't flame or abuse or personalize, respect privacy, do not spam, do not market your wares or qualifications.
-- SMM *"Better a patient person than a warrior, one with self-control than one who takes a city." Prov 16:32*
It’s nigh impossible to pay the bills in exposure :) but well, I think Ali put it very succinctly - let’s train our dev ops and technologists on how to better market and sell themselves on the global economy. And I agree with you on the last points - working with locals and for our market tends to return better value in the medium to long term compared to multinationals (where you cut your teeth at and learn the nuances of the business). I’m a firm believer in Pan-Africanism and the fact that it is only Africans who can uplift themselves. Let’s not get caught napping by the ‘4th industrial revolution’... Get Outlook for iOS<https://aka.ms/o0ukef> ________________________________ From: kictanet <kictanet-bounces+cliffordosedo=gmail.com@lists.kictanet.or.ke> on behalf of S.M. Muraya via kictanet <kictanet@lists.kictanet.or.ke> Sent: Tuesday, November 13, 2018 9:09 am To: cliffordosedo@gmail.com Cc: S.M. Muraya Subject: Re: [kictanet] Cheap AI coding labour? Just (very briefly) looked at the Samasource profile. They seem to be an educational non profit. Skills developed are applied to generate income (intelligence) for their clients + relevant experience (exposure) for their willing subjects/students. For 20 years now, have observed (researched) career progression of a good number of technologists in East Africa. Can say without reservation, the very few who become solid entrepreneurs (if not investors) over time (5 to 7 years) prefer (are convinced by their value system) to work with locals, for our market (not the same as working in multi nationals). It is simply a matter of choice. On Tue, Nov 13, 2018 at 8:00 AM Clifford Derrick via kictanet <kictanet@lists.kictanet.or.ke<mailto:kictanet@lists.kictanet.or.ke>> wrote: Hi Barrack and Listers, I fully agree with this opinion, but before we throw rocks, let’s remember charity starts at home. It is quite vital to raise local standards and awareness on dev and engineering skills plus the remuneration package that comes with being very skilled in niche sectors. The global marketplace would be a good starting point but there are certain ‘barriers of entry’ so to speak. If local companies pay software developers 15k a month to tirelessly slog over code, why would a Silicon Valley start-up come in and pay the chap over 20 times that? Yes, that would be the ethical thing to do but most companies do not run on ethics. They run on P&L. There’s a reason low tier supply chain manufacturing jobs are shifting to Vietnam, Ethiopia and Bangladesh and away from the traditional hubs… Regards Clifford From: kictanet <kictanet-bounces+clifford.derrick=liquidtelecom.com@lists.kictanet.or.ke<mailto:liquidtelecom.com@lists.kictanet.or.ke>> On Behalf Of Barrack Otieno via kictanet Sent: 12 November 2018 14:58 To: Clifford Derrick <clifford.derrick@liquidtelecom.com<mailto:clifford.derrick@liquidtelecom.com>> Cc: Barrack Otieno <otieno.barrack@gmail.com<mailto:otieno.barrack@gmail.com>> Subject: Re: [kictanet] Cheap AI coding labour? Hi Wainaina and listers, Unfortunately we don't have a culture of rewarding local innovations and pumping billions into local Research and Development. The global north has noticed the talent that abounds locally and is not hesitating in tapping into it. I wish we could invest more into our Vocational Institutions and provide funding that would help our innovators in the Jua Kali space to scale up. That said i would be curious to hear what ndugu Ali who has been involved in the start up phase or Harry Hare have to say since i consider them authorities in the space. Regards On 11/12/18, Bernard Kioko via kictanet <kictanet@lists.kictanet.or.ke<mailto:kictanet@lists.kictanet.or.ke>> wrote:
Moral rights are not transferrable.
On Mon, Nov 12, 2018 at 2:35 PM Patrick A. M. Maina via kictanet < kictanet@lists.kictanet.or.ke<mailto:kictanet@lists.kictanet.or.ke>> wrote:
Heehe $12,000 for the "best" source code (including moral rights - so you will never get credited if its a big hit) is a complete joke imo.
I would urge local developers to be cautious about these competitions and approach them strategically.
For example, you can use these kind of competitions as idea triggers to (lawfully) get clues and inspiration on what problems need solving (*without* participating or signing up, as that potentially binds you to their T&Cs) - then form teams/coalitions to solve these problems independently for a much bigger potential payoff.
On policy these things are happening because there are glaring loopholes in our intellectual property laws that allow *IP mining* to take place without any restriction or consequences. Its literally a free for all.
Kenya needs an "Intellectual Property Resources Act", which would invalidate exploitative contracts / terms and conditions is long overdue. This is the kind of 21st Century legislation that can stimulate innovation and the creation of *high quality jobs* in Kenya.
21st Century resources include: 1. Attention or engagement (systems designed to distract people from contributing to economic activity) 2. Data (for mining/analytics or ML) 3. Source code, novel circuits, algorithms, chemical formulations, mixtures, blue prints (including business plans, pricing models etc). 4. Valuable ideas (e.g. "please call me") that cannot be protected via any combination of the old industrial era laws e.g. patents, copyright, UM & DM. 5. other?
Thanks for the heads up and Good day! Patrick.
On Monday, November 12, 2018, 2:01:43 PM GMT+3, Wainaina Mungai via kictanet <kictanet@lists.kictanet.or.ke<mailto:kictanet@lists.kictanet.or.ke>> wrote:
Some developers are raising concerns privately that great initiatives such as Zindi are "cheaply buying AI code" from Africa https://zindi.africa/faq/data_scientists
According to them, "Zindi runs high-value expertise programming competitions/ hackathons in Kenya and Nigeria... and demands code in exchange for low pay prizes. It is unfairly low-cost labour for them."
See attached. Are their concerns valid?
_______________________________________________ kictanet mailing list kictanet@lists.kictanet.or.ke<mailto:kictanet@lists.kictanet.or.ke> https://lists.kictanet.or.ke/mailman/listinfo/kictanet Twitter: http://twitter.com/kictanet Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/KICTANet/ Domain Registration sponsored by www.eacdirectory.co.ke<http://www.eacdirectory.co.ke>
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The Kenya ICT Action Network (KICTANet) is a multi-stakeholder platform for people and institutions interested and involved in ICT policy and regulation. The network aims to act as a catalyst for reform in the ICT sector in support of the national aim of ICT enabled growth and development.
KICTANetiquette : Adhere to the same standards of acceptable behaviors online that you follow in real life: respect people's times and bandwidth, share knowledge, don't flame or abuse or personalize, respect privacy, do not spam, do not market your wares or qualifications. _______________________________________________ kictanet mailing list kictanet@lists.kictanet.or.ke<mailto:kictanet@lists.kictanet.or.ke> https://lists.kictanet.or.ke/mailman/listinfo/kictanet Twitter: http://twitter.com/kictanet Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/KICTANet/ Domain Registration sponsored by www.eacdirectory.co.ke<http://www.eacdirectory.co.ke>
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The Kenya ICT Action Network (KICTANet) is a multi-stakeholder platform for people and institutions interested and involved in ICT policy and regulation. The network aims to act as a catalyst for reform in the ICT sector in support of the national aim of ICT enabled growth and development.
KICTANetiquette : Adhere to the same standards of acceptable behaviors online that you follow in real life: respect people's times and bandwidth, share knowledge, don't flame or abuse or personalize, respect privacy, do not spam, do not market your wares or qualifications.
-- <https://bernardkioko.com?promo=email_sig&utm_source=product&utm_medium=email_sig&utm_campaign=gmail_api&utm_content=thumb> Bernard Kioko bernardkioko.com<http://bernardkioko.com> <https://bernardkioko.com?promo=email_sig&utm_source=product&utm_medium=email_sig&utm_campaign=gmail_api&utm_content=thumb>
-- Barrack O. Otieno +254721325277 +254733206359 Skype: barrack.otieno PGP ID: 0x2611D86A _______________________________________________ kictanet mailing list kictanet@lists.kictanet.or.ke<mailto:kictanet@lists.kictanet.or.ke> https://lists.kictanet.or.ke/mailman/listinfo/kictanet Twitter: http://twitter.com/kictanet Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/KICTANet/ Domain Registration sponsored by www.eacdirectory.co.ke<http://www.eacdirectory.co.ke> Unsubscribe or change your options at https://lists.kictanet.or.ke/mailman/options/kictanet/clifford.derrick@liqui... The Kenya ICT Action Network (KICTANet) is a multi-stakeholder platform for people and institutions interested and involved in ICT policy and regulation. The network aims to act as a catalyst for reform in the ICT sector in support of the national aim of ICT enabled growth and development. KICTANetiquette : Adhere to the same standards of acceptable behaviors online that you follow in real life: respect people's times and bandwidth, share knowledge, don't flame or abuse or personalize, respect privacy, do not spam, do not market your wares or qualifications. _______________________________________________ kictanet mailing list kictanet@lists.kictanet.or.ke<mailto:kictanet@lists.kictanet.or.ke> https://lists.kictanet.or.ke/mailman/listinfo/kictanet Twitter: http://twitter.com/kictanet Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/KICTANet/ Domain Registration sponsored by www.eacdirectory.co.ke<http://www.eacdirectory.co.ke> Unsubscribe or change your options at https://lists.kictanet.or.ke/mailman/options/kictanet/murigi.muraya%40gmail.... The Kenya ICT Action Network (KICTANet) is a multi-stakeholder platform for people and institutions interested and involved in ICT policy and regulation. The network aims to act as a catalyst for reform in the ICT sector in support of the national aim of ICT enabled growth and development. KICTANetiquette : Adhere to the same standards of acceptable behaviors online that you follow in real life: respect people's times and bandwidth, share knowledge, don't flame or abuse or personalize, respect privacy, do not spam, do not market your wares or qualifications. -- SMM "Better a patient person than a warrior, one with self-control than one who takes a city." Prov 16:32
Just to clear up some ambiguities ********************************** We have two threads running here - one is about coding/programming and building AI powered tools and the discussion was about competition prizes being low e.g. $12,000 and yes that is a low figure and other support should be offered to accompany those who have come up with an idea on the long journey to building a successful startup and social enterprise. ********************************* The other thread is about training AI - this is really outsourcing work... it is mostly mechanical, rote, repetitive tasks. This is not new in Kenya - Those who worked in Kencall trained a bot called Spinvox and that was in 2008... a lot of people who worked the call center circuits then, now work at home on Crowdflower, Amazons mechanical turk, client work through Samasource.... (There is still a few who work in institutional call centers such as Horizon or Daproim or Adept. *********************** Leila Janah the founder of Samasource is talking about $9 a day. In my days in Kencall we used to be paid $120 a month translating to about $4 a day.... this kind of why explains why a lot of people will prefer to work from home instead of in an institutional call center (less expenses and you make about double)... So yes the points of valuing ourselves and stopping self hate are very valid. That said - if Konza is still a project I hope they have iterated the business model over the years (initially it was all built on the promise of BPO) *********************** Learning - Do you learn while training an AI? (BPO) Yes - you learn about content. You learn about other contexts and you might learn about other subjects but it will not make you a developer and it will not give you any insights about how the machine you are feeding works or how it has been created... you are doing repetitive work and the eventual goal is that the system should be able to work without your input. Do you learn in competitions? I have found while a lot of ideas are valid and good - the work that goes into making them a reality and the learning that happens post competition is way much more than in the competition. My two cents for people taking part in competitions - just put in enough content to win the competition reserve the rest for boardroom meetings with investors and partners and reserve the secrets for you and your team - and the internal motivation for only yourself. I don't know if IP and copyright laws in Kenya are affordable enough for anyone to start patenting at idea stage... maybe to just apply for a patent but not follow through - it is not the priority of any startup at this stage. ***************************** Finally there are people working at the intersection of these two areas BPO (outsourced work) and Programming(development work) A lot of them will work on platforms like Fiverr, PeoplePerHour and Upwork... (Does Apptank still exist?) there are fewer platforms for programming work than say writing, transcription, data entry and SEO work. I think if we want to offer some protection - then these are the people we need to offer protection. Some of these work platforms and even payment platforms such as Paypal will withhold money on grounds of location... this is really discriminatory... maybe that now Safaricom has a partnership with them it will improve their perception of Africa - I hope all this trade promotion we do will include this area... not just export of food produce or whatever else it is that we export nowadays. With kind regards Jeipea Believe in yourself then you can change your world ____________________________________________ Skype: john.paul.em Cell: +254735586956 On Tue, Nov 13, 2018 at 11:56 AM Clifford Derrick via kictanet < kictanet@lists.kictanet.or.ke> wrote:
It’s nigh impossible to pay the bills in exposure :) but well, I think Ali put it very succinctly - let’s train our dev ops and technologists on how to better market and sell themselves on the global economy.
And I agree with you on the last points - working with locals and for our market tends to return better value in the medium to long term compared to multinationals (where you cut your teeth at and learn the nuances of the business). I’m a firm believer in Pan-Africanism and the fact that it is only Africans who can uplift themselves. Let’s not get caught napping by the ‘4th industrial revolution’...
Get Outlook for iOS <https://aka.ms/o0ukef>
------------------------------ *From:* kictanet <kictanet-bounces+cliffordosedo= gmail.com@lists.kictanet.or.ke> on behalf of S.M. Muraya via kictanet < kictanet@lists.kictanet.or.ke> *Sent:* Tuesday, November 13, 2018 9:09 am *To:* cliffordosedo@gmail.com *Cc:* S.M. Muraya *Subject:* Re: [kictanet] Cheap AI coding labour?
Just (very briefly) looked at the Samasource profile. They seem to be an educational non profit.
Skills developed are applied to generate income (intelligence) for their clients + relevant experience (exposure) for their willing subjects/students.
For 20 years now, have observed (researched) career progression of a good number of technologists in East Africa. Can say without reservation, the very few who become solid entrepreneurs (if not investors) over time (5 to 7 years) prefer (are convinced by their value system) to work with locals, for our market (not the same as working in multi nationals). It is simply a matter of choice.
On Tue, Nov 13, 2018 at 8:00 AM Clifford Derrick via kictanet < kictanet@lists.kictanet.or.ke> wrote:
Hi Barrack and Listers,
I fully agree with this opinion, but before we throw rocks, let’s remember charity starts at home.
It is quite vital to raise local standards and awareness on dev and engineering skills plus the remuneration package that comes with being very skilled in niche sectors. The global marketplace would be a good starting point but there are certain ‘barriers of entry’ so to speak. If local companies pay software developers 15k a month to tirelessly slog over code, why would a Silicon Valley start-up come in and pay the chap over 20 times that? Yes, that would be the ethical thing to do but most companies do not run on ethics. They run on P&L. There’s a reason low tier supply chain manufacturing jobs are shifting to Vietnam, Ethiopia and Bangladesh and away from the traditional hubs…
Regards
Clifford
*From:* kictanet <kictanet-bounces+clifford.derrick= liquidtelecom.com@lists.kictanet.or.ke> *On Behalf Of *Barrack Otieno via kictanet *Sent:* 12 November 2018 14:58 *To:* Clifford Derrick <clifford.derrick@liquidtelecom.com> *Cc:* Barrack Otieno <otieno.barrack@gmail.com> *Subject:* Re: [kictanet] Cheap AI coding labour?
Hi Wainaina and listers,
Unfortunately we don't have a culture of rewarding local innovations and pumping billions into local Research and Development. The global north has noticed the talent that abounds locally and is not hesitating in tapping into it. I wish we could invest more into our Vocational Institutions and provide funding that would help our innovators in the Jua Kali space to scale up. That said i would be curious to hear what ndugu Ali who has been involved in the start up phase or Harry Hare have to say since i consider them authorities in the space.
Regards
On 11/12/18, Bernard Kioko via kictanet <kictanet@lists.kictanet.or.ke> wrote:
Moral rights are not transferrable.
On Mon, Nov 12, 2018 at 2:35 PM Patrick A. M. Maina via kictanet < kictanet@lists.kictanet.or.ke> wrote:
Heehe $12,000 for the "best" source code (including moral rights - so you will never get credited if its a big hit) is a complete joke imo.
I would urge local developers to be cautious about these competitions and approach them strategically.
For example, you can use these kind of competitions as idea triggers to (lawfully) get clues and inspiration on what problems need solving (*without* participating or signing up, as that potentially binds you to their T&Cs) - then form teams/coalitions to solve these problems independently for a much bigger potential payoff.
On policy these things are happening because there are glaring loopholes in our intellectual property laws that allow *IP mining* to take place without any restriction or consequences. Its literally a free for all.
Kenya needs an "Intellectual Property Resources Act", which would invalidate exploitative contracts / terms and conditions is long overdue. This is the kind of 21st Century legislation that can stimulate innovation and the creation of *high quality jobs* in Kenya.
21st Century resources include: 1. Attention or engagement (systems designed to distract people from contributing to economic activity) 2. Data (for mining/analytics or ML) 3. Source code, novel circuits, algorithms, chemical formulations, mixtures, blue prints (including business plans, pricing models etc). 4. Valuable ideas (e.g. "please call me") that cannot be protected via any combination of the old industrial era laws e.g. patents, copyright, UM & DM. 5. other?
Thanks for the heads up and Good day! Patrick.
On Monday, November 12, 2018, 2:01:43 PM GMT+3, Wainaina Mungai via kictanet <kictanet@lists.kictanet.or.ke> wrote:
Some developers are raising concerns privately that great initiatives such as Zindi are "cheaply buying AI code" from Africa https://zindi.africa/faq/data_scientists
According to them, "Zindi runs high-value expertise programming competitions/ hackathons in Kenya and Nigeria... and demands code in exchange for low pay prizes. It is unfairly low-cost labour for them."
See attached. Are their concerns valid?
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KICTANetiquette : Adhere to the same standards of acceptable behaviors online that you follow in real life: respect people's times and bandwidth, share knowledge, don't flame or abuse or personalize, respect privacy,
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not spam, do not market your wares or qualifications. _______________________________________________ kictanet mailing list kictanet@lists.kictanet.or.ke https://lists.kictanet.or.ke/mailman/listinfo/kictanet Twitter: http://twitter.com/kictanet Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/KICTANet/ Domain Registration sponsored by www.eacdirectory.co.ke
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KICTANetiquette : Adhere to the same standards of acceptable behaviors online that you follow in real life: respect people's times and bandwidth, share knowledge, don't flame or abuse or personalize, respect privacy,
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not spam, do not market your wares or qualifications.
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-- Barrack O. Otieno +254721325277 +254733206359 Skype: barrack.otieno PGP ID: 0x2611D86A
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KICTANetiquette : Adhere to the same standards of acceptable behaviors online that you follow in real life: respect people's times and bandwidth, share knowledge, don't flame or abuse or personalize, respect privacy, do not spam, do not market your wares or qualifications. _______________________________________________ kictanet mailing list kictanet@lists.kictanet.or.ke https://lists.kictanet.or.ke/mailman/listinfo/kictanet Twitter: http://twitter.com/kictanet Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/KICTANet/ Domain Registration sponsored by www.eacdirectory.co.ke
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KICTANetiquette : Adhere to the same standards of acceptable behaviors online that you follow in real life: respect people's times and bandwidth, share knowledge, don't flame or abuse or personalize, respect privacy, do not spam, do not market your wares or qualifications.
-- SMM
*"Better a patient person than a warrior, one with self-control than one who takes a city." Prov 16:32* _______________________________________________ kictanet mailing list kictanet@lists.kictanet.or.ke https://lists.kictanet.or.ke/mailman/listinfo/kictanet Twitter: http://twitter.com/kictanet Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/KICTANet/ Domain Registration sponsored by www.eacdirectory.co.ke
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A BPO stint during entry-level days can actually make someone a better software engineer, with improved soft skills, customer savvy as well as business acumen. The key thing is to be strategic about it... avoiding the "dumb BPO" work (e.g. keying in meaningless accounting vouchers on a single screen every day, forever..) and focusing on "smart BPO" work (e.g. multi-domain customer support, AI training etc). Jobs which impart potentially high-value skills / insights. Developers who don't care about the meaning of data or the business issues being solved, risk turning into coders (which I think is a *horrible* heavily commoditized job). I think the code submission shops (modeled after Indian body shops), whether online or institutional, are partly responsible for the suppressed wages. They have high incentive to underpay so they can maintain great margins from your work, which they keep for themselves. "Why buy the cow, if you can get the milk cheap/free?" That is what their customer is thinking when asked about direct engagement of Kenyans. Developers need to think hard about this. You can't commoditize your skills and then expect to be paid a premium! Unless you are desperate for cash, or want to gain experience, avoid the body jobs. You will waste many years of your life getting paid significantly less the *true worth* of your work. Job creation should be about *high value* jobs. On our side we have to demonstrate high value and skill up (T shape) on multiple domains (engineering, one or two business domains and project management) according to international market needs so we can be branded globally, hopefully with Government support, as the go-to country for full-stack solution architects, business analysts and project managers - rather than coders/programmers. Brand + Scarcity = Good Wages (Gov earns more taxes) Commoditization + Oversupply = Poor Wages (Gov earns less taxes). Good evening listers!Patrick. On Wednesday, November 14, 2018, 7:36:55 PM GMT+3, John Paul Karijo via kictanet <kictanet@lists.kictanet.or.ke> wrote: Just to clear up some ambiguities ********************************** We have two threads running here - one is about coding/programming and building AI powered tools and the discussion was about competition prizes being low e.g. $12,000 and yes that is a low figure and other support should be offered to accompany those who have come up with an idea on the long journey to building a successful startup and social enterprise. *********************************The other thread is about training AI - this is really outsourcing work... it is mostly mechanical, rote, repetitive tasks. This is not new in Kenya - Those who worked in Kencall trained a bot called Spinvox and that was in 2008... a lot of people who worked the call center circuits then, now work at home on Crowdflower, Amazons mechanical turk, client work through Samasource.... (There is still a few who work in institutional call centers such as Horizon or Daproim or Adept. *********************** Leila Janah the founder of Samasource is talking about $9 a day. In my days in Kencall we used to be paid $120 a month translating to about $4 a day.... this kind of why explains why a lot of people will prefer to work from home instead of in an institutional call center (less expenses and you make about double)... So yes the points of valuing ourselves and stopping self hate are very valid. That said - if Konza is still a project I hope they have iterated the business model over the years (initially it was all built on the promise of BPO) ***********************Learning - Do you learn while training an AI? (BPO) Yes - you learn about content. You learn about other contexts and you might learn about other subjects but it will not make you a developer and it will not give you any insights about how the machine you are feeding works or how it has been created... you are doing repetitive work and the eventual goal is that the system should be able to work without your input. Do you learn in competitions? I have found while a lot of ideas are valid and good - the work that goes into making them a reality and the learning that happens post competition is way much more than in the competition. My two cents for people taking part in competitions - just put in enough content to win the competition reserve the rest for boardroom meetings with investors and partners and reserve the secrets for you and your team - and the internal motivation for only yourself. I don't know if IP and copyright laws in Kenya are affordable enough for anyone to start patenting at idea stage... maybe to just apply for a patent but not follow through - it is not the priority of any startup at this stage. ***************************** Finally there are people working at the intersection of these two areas BPO (outsourced work) and Programming(development work) A lot of them will work on platforms like Fiverr, PeoplePerHour and Upwork... (Does Apptank still exist?) there are fewer platforms for programming work than say writing, transcription, data entry and SEO work. I think if we want to offer some protection - then these are the people we need to offer protection. Some of these work platforms and even payment platforms such as Paypal will withhold money on grounds of location... this is really discriminatory... maybe that now Safaricom has a partnership with them it will improve their perception of Africa - I hope all this trade promotion we do will include this area... not just export of food produce or whatever else it is that we export nowadays. With kind regards Jeipea Believe in yourself then you can change your world ____________________________________________Skype: john.paul.emCell: +254735586956 On Tue, Nov 13, 2018 at 11:56 AM Clifford Derrick via kictanet <kictanet@lists.kictanet.or.ke> wrote: It’s nigh impossible to pay the bills in exposure :) but well, I think Ali put it very succinctly - let’s train our dev ops and technologists on how to better market and sell themselves on the global economy. And I agree with you on the last points - working with locals and for our market tends to return better value in the medium to long term compared to multinationals (where you cut your teeth at and learn the nuances of the business). I’m a firm believer in Pan-Africanism and the fact that it is only Africans who can uplift themselves. Let’s not get caught napping by the ‘4th industrial revolution’... Get Outlook for iOS From: kictanet <kictanet-bounces+cliffordosedo=gmail.com@lists.kictanet.or.ke> on behalf of S.M. Muraya via kictanet <kictanet@lists.kictanet.or.ke> Sent: Tuesday, November 13, 2018 9:09 am To: cliffordosedo@gmail.com Cc: S.M. Muraya Subject: Re: [kictanet] Cheap AI coding labour? Just (very briefly) looked at the Samasource profile. They seem to be an educational non profit. Skills developed are applied to generate income (intelligence) for their clients + relevant experience (exposure) for their willing subjects/students. For 20 years now, have observed (researched) career progression of a good number of technologists in East Africa. Can say without reservation, the very few who become solid entrepreneurs (if not investors) over time (5 to 7 years) prefer (are convinced by their value system) to work with locals, for our market (not the same as working in multi nationals). It is simply a matter of choice. On Tue, Nov 13, 2018 at 8:00 AM Clifford Derrick via kictanet <kictanet@lists.kictanet.or.ke> wrote: Hi Barrack and Listers, I fully agree with this opinion, but before we throw rocks, let’s remember charity starts at home. It is quite vital to raise local standards and awareness on dev and engineering skills plus the remuneration package that comes with being very skilled in niche sectors. The global marketplace would be a good starting point but there are certain ‘barriers of entry’ so to speak. If local companies pay software developers 15k a month to tirelessly slog over code, why would a Silicon Valley start-up come in and pay the chap over 20 times that? Yes, that would be the ethical thing to do but most companies do not run on ethics. They run on P&L. There’s a reason low tier supply chain manufacturing jobs are shifting to Vietnam, Ethiopia and Bangladesh and away from the traditional hubs… Regards Clifford From: kictanet <kictanet-bounces+clifford.derrick=liquidtelecom.com@lists.kictanet.or.ke>On Behalf Of Barrack Otieno via kictanet Sent: 12 November 2018 14:58 To: Clifford Derrick <clifford.derrick@liquidtelecom.com> Cc: Barrack Otieno <otieno.barrack@gmail.com> Subject: Re: [kictanet] Cheap AI coding labour? Hi Wainaina and listers, Unfortunately we don't have a culture of rewarding local innovations and pumping billions into local Research and Development. The global north has noticed the talent that abounds locally and is not hesitating in tapping into it. I wish we could invest more into our Vocational Institutions and provide funding that would help our innovators in the Jua Kali space to scale up. That said i would be curious to hear what ndugu Ali who has been involved in the start up phase or Harry Hare have to say since i consider them authorities in the space. Regards On 11/12/18, Bernard Kioko via kictanet <kictanet@lists.kictanet.or.ke> wrote:
Moral rights are not transferrable.
On Mon, Nov 12, 2018 at 2:35 PM Patrick A. M. Maina via kictanet < kictanet@lists.kictanet.or.ke> wrote:
Heehe $12,000 for the "best" source code (including moral rights - so you will never get credited if its a big hit) is a complete joke imo.
I would urge local developers to be cautious about these competitions and approach them strategically.
For example, you can use these kind of competitions as idea triggers to (lawfully) get clues and inspiration on what problems need solving (*without* participating or signing up, as that potentially binds you to their T&Cs) - then form teams/coalitions to solve these problems independently for a much bigger potential payoff.
On policy these things are happening because there are glaring loopholes in our intellectual property laws that allow *IP mining* to take place without any restriction or consequences. Its literally a free for all.
Kenya needs an "Intellectual Property Resources Act", which would invalidate exploitative contracts / terms and conditions is long overdue. This is the kind of 21st Century legislation that can stimulate innovation and the creation of *high quality jobs* in Kenya.
21st Century resources include: 1. Attention or engagement (systems designed to distract people from contributing to economic activity) 2. Data (for mining/analytics or ML) 3. Source code, novel circuits, algorithms, chemical formulations, mixtures, blue prints (including business plans, pricing models etc). 4. Valuable ideas (e.g. "please call me") that cannot be protected via any combination of the old industrial era laws e.g. patents, copyright, UM & DM. 5. other?
Thanks for the heads up and Good day! Patrick.
On Monday, November 12, 2018, 2:01:43 PM GMT+3, Wainaina Mungai via kictanet <kictanet@lists.kictanet.or.ke> wrote:
Some developers are raising concerns privately that great initiatives such as Zindi are "cheaply buying AI code" from Africa https://zindi.africa/faq/data_scientists
According to them, "Zindi runs high-value expertise programming competitions/ hackathons in Kenya and Nigeria... and demands code in exchange for low pay prizes. It is unfairly low-cost labour for them."
See attached. Are their concerns valid?
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KICTANetiquette : Adhere to the same standards of acceptable behaviors online that you follow in real life: respect people's times and bandwidth, share knowledge, don't flame or abuse or personalize, respect privacy, do not spam, do not market your wares or qualifications.
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The problem is with our systems too....when do we expose our youth to their true worth as developers? Unfortunately, most Kenyans do not know their true worth until much later when exposed to the "big competitions" It is upon our institutions to teach and expose our developers early enough However, we can't run from the fact that due to the economics of the nation, most of the youth are yearning for opportunities and will jump at any that comes their way...thats the life in Africa Regards, Ronald Ojino On Thu, Nov 15, 2018 at 12:42 AM Patrick A. M. Maina via kictanet < kictanet@lists.kictanet.or.ke> wrote:
A BPO stint during entry-level days can actually make someone a better software engineer, with improved soft skills, customer savvy as well as business acumen.
The key thing is to be strategic about it... avoiding the "dumb BPO" work (e.g. keying in meaningless accounting vouchers on a single screen every day, forever..) and focusing on "smart BPO" work (e.g. multi-domain customer support, AI training etc). Jobs which impart potentially high-value skills / insights.
Developers who don't care about the meaning of data or the business issues being solved, risk turning into coders (which I think is a *horrible* heavily commoditized job). I think the code submission shops (modeled after Indian body shops), whether online or institutional, are partly responsible for the suppressed wages. They have high incentive to underpay so they can maintain great margins from your work, which they keep for themselves.
"Why buy the cow, if you can get the milk cheap/free?" That is what their customer is thinking when asked about direct engagement of Kenyans. Developers need to think hard about this. You can't commoditize your skills and then expect to be paid a premium!
Unless you are desperate for cash, or want to gain experience, avoid the body jobs. You will waste many years of your life getting paid significantly less the *true worth* of your work. Job creation should be about *high value* jobs.
On our side we have to demonstrate high value and skill up (T shape) on multiple domains (engineering, one or two business domains and project management) according to international market needs so we can be branded globally, hopefully with Government support, as the go-to country for full-stack solution architects, business analysts and project managers - rather than coders/programmers.
Brand + Scarcity = Good Wages (Gov earns more taxes)
Commoditization + Oversupply = Poor Wages (Gov earns less taxes).
Good evening listers! Patrick.
On Wednesday, November 14, 2018, 7:36:55 PM GMT+3, John Paul Karijo via kictanet <kictanet@lists.kictanet.or.ke> wrote:
Just to clear up some ambiguities
********************************** We have two threads running here - one is about coding/programming and building AI powered tools and the discussion was about competition prizes being low e.g. $12,000 and yes that is a low figure and other support should be offered to accompany those who have come up with an idea on the long journey to building a successful startup and social enterprise.
********************************* The other thread is about training AI - this is really outsourcing work... it is mostly mechanical, rote, repetitive tasks.
This is not new in Kenya - Those who worked in Kencall trained a bot called Spinvox and that was in 2008... a lot of people who worked the call center circuits then, now work at home on Crowdflower, Amazons mechanical turk, client work through Samasource.... (There is still a few who work in institutional call centers such as Horizon or Daproim or Adept.
*********************** Leila Janah the founder of Samasource is talking about $9 a day. In my days in Kencall we used to be paid $120 a month translating to about $4 a day.... this kind of why explains why a lot of people will prefer to work from home instead of in an institutional call center (less expenses and you make about double)... So yes the points of valuing ourselves and stopping self hate are very valid.
That said - if Konza is still a project I hope they have iterated the business model over the years (initially it was all built on the promise of BPO)
*********************** Learning - Do you learn while training an AI? (BPO) Yes - you learn about content. You learn about other contexts and you might learn about other subjects but it will not make you a developer and it will not give you any insights about how the machine you are feeding works or how it has been created... you are doing repetitive work and the eventual goal is that the system should be able to work without your input.
Do you learn in competitions? I have found while a lot of ideas are valid and good - the work that goes into making them a reality and the learning that happens post competition is way much more than in the competition.
My two cents for people taking part in competitions - just put in enough content to win the competition reserve the rest for boardroom meetings with investors and partners and reserve the secrets for you and your team - and the internal motivation for only yourself.
I don't know if IP and copyright laws in Kenya are affordable enough for anyone to start patenting at idea stage... maybe to just apply for a patent but not follow through - it is not the priority of any startup at this stage.
***************************** Finally there are people working at the intersection of these two areas BPO (outsourced work) and Programming(development work) A lot of them will work on platforms like Fiverr, PeoplePerHour and Upwork... (Does Apptank still exist?) there are fewer platforms for programming work than say writing, transcription, data entry and SEO work.
I think if we want to offer some protection - then these are the people we need to offer protection. Some of these work platforms and even payment platforms such as Paypal will withhold money on grounds of location... this is really discriminatory... maybe that now Safaricom has a partnership with them it will improve their perception of Africa - I hope all this trade promotion we do will include this area... not just export of food produce or whatever else it is that we export nowadays.
With kind regards
Jeipea
Believe in yourself then you can change your world
____________________________________________ Skype: john.paul.em Cell: +254735586956
On Tue, Nov 13, 2018 at 11:56 AM Clifford Derrick via kictanet < kictanet@lists.kictanet.or.ke> wrote:
It’s nigh impossible to pay the bills in exposure :) but well, I think Ali put it very succinctly - let’s train our dev ops and technologists on how to better market and sell themselves on the global economy.
And I agree with you on the last points - working with locals and for our market tends to return better value in the medium to long term compared to multinationals (where you cut your teeth at and learn the nuances of the business). I’m a firm believer in Pan-Africanism and the fact that it is only Africans who can uplift themselves. Let’s not get caught napping by the ‘4th industrial revolution’...
Get Outlook for iOS <https://aka.ms/o0ukef>
------------------------------ *From:* kictanet <kictanet-bounces+cliffordosedo= gmail.com@lists.kictanet.or.ke> on behalf of S.M. Muraya via kictanet < kictanet@lists.kictanet.or.ke> *Sent:* Tuesday, November 13, 2018 9:09 am *To:* cliffordosedo@gmail.com *Cc:* S.M. Muraya *Subject:* Re: [kictanet] Cheap AI coding labour?
Just (very briefly) looked at the Samasource profile. They seem to be an educational non profit.
Skills developed are applied to generate income (intelligence) for their clients + relevant experience (exposure) for their willing subjects/students.
For 20 years now, have observed (researched) career progression of a good number of technologists in East Africa. Can say without reservation, the very few who become solid entrepreneurs (if not investors) over time (5 to 7 years) prefer (are convinced by their value system) to work with locals, for our market (not the same as working in multi nationals). It is simply a matter of choice.
On Tue, Nov 13, 2018 at 8:00 AM Clifford Derrick via kictanet < kictanet@lists.kictanet.or.ke> wrote:
Hi Barrack and Listers,
I fully agree with this opinion, but before we throw rocks, let’s remember charity starts at home.
It is quite vital to raise local standards and awareness on dev and engineering skills plus the remuneration package that comes with being very skilled in niche sectors. The global marketplace would be a good starting point but there are certain ‘barriers of entry’ so to speak. If local companies pay software developers 15k a month to tirelessly slog over code, why would a Silicon Valley start-up come in and pay the chap over 20 times that? Yes, that would be the ethical thing to do but most companies do not run on ethics. They run on P&L. There’s a reason low tier supply chain manufacturing jobs are shifting to Vietnam, Ethiopia and Bangladesh and away from the traditional hubs…
Regards
Clifford
*From:* kictanet <kictanet-bounces+clifford.derrick= liquidtelecom.com@lists.kictanet.or.ke> *On Behalf Of *Barrack Otieno via kictanet *Sent:* 12 November 2018 14:58 *To:* Clifford Derrick <clifford.derrick@liquidtelecom.com> *Cc:* Barrack Otieno <otieno.barrack@gmail.com> *Subject:* Re: [kictanet] Cheap AI coding labour?
Hi Wainaina and listers,
Unfortunately we don't have a culture of rewarding local innovations and pumping billions into local Research and Development. The global north has noticed the talent that abounds locally and is not hesitating in tapping into it. I wish we could invest more into our Vocational Institutions and provide funding that would help our innovators in the Jua Kali space to scale up. That said i would be curious to hear what ndugu Ali who has been involved in the start up phase or Harry Hare have to say since i consider them authorities in the space.
Regards
On 11/12/18, Bernard Kioko via kictanet <kictanet@lists.kictanet.or.ke> wrote:
Moral rights are not transferrable.
On Mon, Nov 12, 2018 at 2:35 PM Patrick A. M. Maina via kictanet < kictanet@lists.kictanet.or.ke> wrote:
Heehe $12,000 for the "best" source code (including moral rights - so you will never get credited if its a big hit) is a complete joke imo.
I would urge local developers to be cautious about these competitions and approach them strategically.
For example, you can use these kind of competitions as idea triggers to (lawfully) get clues and inspiration on what problems need solving (*without* participating or signing up, as that potentially binds you to their T&Cs) - then form teams/coalitions to solve these problems independently for a much bigger potential payoff.
On policy these things are happening because there are glaring loopholes in our intellectual property laws that allow *IP mining* to take place without any restriction or consequences. Its literally a free for all.
Kenya needs an "Intellectual Property Resources Act", which would invalidate exploitative contracts / terms and conditions is long overdue. This is the kind of 21st Century legislation that can stimulate innovation and the creation of *high quality jobs* in Kenya.
21st Century resources include: 1. Attention or engagement (systems designed to distract people from contributing to economic activity) 2. Data (for mining/analytics or ML) 3. Source code, novel circuits, algorithms, chemical formulations, mixtures, blue prints (including business plans, pricing models etc). 4. Valuable ideas (e.g. "please call me") that cannot be protected via any combination of the old industrial era laws e.g. patents, copyright, UM & DM. 5. other?
Thanks for the heads up and Good day! Patrick.
On Monday, November 12, 2018, 2:01:43 PM GMT+3, Wainaina Mungai via kictanet <kictanet@lists.kictanet.or.ke> wrote:
Some developers are raising concerns privately that great initiatives such as Zindi are "cheaply buying AI code" from Africa https://zindi.africa/faq/data_scientists
According to them, "Zindi runs high-value expertise programming competitions/ hackathons in Kenya and Nigeria... and demands code in exchange for low pay prizes. It is unfairly low-cost labour for them."
See attached. Are their concerns valid?
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*"Better a patient person than a warrior, one with self-control than one who takes a city." Prov 16:32* _______________________________________________ kictanet mailing list kictanet@lists.kictanet.or.ke https://lists.kictanet.or.ke/mailman/listinfo/kictanet Twitter: http://twitter.com/kictanet Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/KICTANet/ Domain Registration sponsored by www.eacdirectory.co.ke
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The Kenya ICT Action Network (KICTANet) is a multi-stakeholder platform for people and institutions interested and involved in ICT policy and regulation. The network aims to act as a catalyst for reform in the ICT sector in support of the national aim of ICT enabled growth and development.
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The Kenya ICT Action Network (KICTANet) is a multi-stakeholder platform for people and institutions interested and involved in ICT policy and regulation. The network aims to act as a catalyst for reform in the ICT sector in support of the national aim of ICT enabled growth and development.
KICTANetiquette : Adhere to the same standards of acceptable behaviors online that you follow in real life: respect people's times and bandwidth, share knowledge, don't flame or abuse or personalize, respect privacy, do not spam, do not market your wares or qualifications.
-- Faith is a living and unshakable confidence. A belief in God so assured that a man would die a thousand deaths for its sake.
participants (11)
-
Admin CampusCiti -
Barrack Otieno -
Bernard Kioko -
Clifford Derrick -
Clifford Derrick -
Grace Bomu -
John Paul Karijo -
Patrick A. M. Maina -
Ronald Ojino -
S.M. Muraya -
Wainaina Mungai