[Fwd: [reformsnow] If we vote YES for the proposed Constitution
Dear all For those following (all Kenyans of course...) the constitutional review process, please see below. best alice -------- Original Message -------- Subject: [reformsnow] If we vote YES for the proposed Const.... Date: Wed, 26 May 2010 03:53:54 -0700 (PDT) From: Wamuyu Gatheru <wamuyulearn@yahoo.co.uk> To: alice@apc.org CC: reformsnow@lists.reformsnow.or.ke Hi all, We are still struggling to get Constitutional reform behind us. Please find attached a brief question and answer write out done by Njoki Ndungu, a COE Commissioner, breaking down some issues: how muslims pay for Christian, Hindu etc marriages, what ratification of an international treaty means, how devolution will work... *Today's Fact*: If we vote YES for the proposed Constitution no proposed legislation can be delayed for longer than one year beyond the time specified for its enactment (see the 5th schedule on legislation). For example, new law on Citizenship (dual citizenship, women passing on citizenship to spouses after 7 years, law abiding residents obtaining citizenship after 7 years...) should be in place in one year. If after 2 years this legislation is not in place, Parliament will be ordered by the High Court to enact the legislation within a specified period of time. If Parliament fails to obey this order, _Parliament will be dissolved_. regards, Wamuyu P/S Invite your networks to this mailing list (reformsnow@lists.reformsnow.or.ke) Facts on political reforms will be posted regularly.
Since this has been brought up on-list, I presume we are free to comment on-list ;-) My comments are on the link between; a) Abortion and 'any other written law' in the context of international law that may allow abortion or 'county law' that may be determined after we pass the draft. Will treaties of other international instruments that are automatically effected via this draft be considered 'any other written law'? b) From my little reading, Kadhi courts are not 'customary courts' in the same way as native courts, which became 'magistrates courts'. They are RELIGIOUS COURTS. Let's not pretend about that. If they were similar to magistrates courts as put forward by our 'expert', then a Christian or Hindu student of Islamic law may as well qualify to be appointed as a Kadhi. Kadhi courts are not open courts the same way as a muslim or Hindu can be appointed as a magistrate or Chief Justice. A Christian or Hindu woman who proves himself in administering Islamic law cannot become a Kadhi, even if he is the financier (tax-payer) of such courts. Overall, this CoE draft seems like a Yes. It is only fair if we start to identify the bits of the draft that need to be amended once it is passed. The No campaign at the previous referendum always used to remind us that one rotten potato spoils the whole sack of potatoes. What has changed? Doesn't that wisdom still apply? ;-) There is alot Banking sector is concerned about in relation to the chapter on land and manufacturers/investors have queries that have gone unanswered in attempts to avoid being branded a 'no' campaigner. I say, vote for the draft on condition we also agree on things that must be amended either before or after August 2010. Even the pro-yes brigade of President Kibaki and PM Raila admit it is not perfect and 'tutabadilisha hapo pengine'. Let's discuss the 'hapo pengine' today, not after 4th August. On 5/26/10, alice <alice@apc.org> wrote:
Dear all
For those following (all Kenyans of course...) the constitutional review process, please see below.
best
alice
-------- Original Message -------- Subject: [reformsnow] If we vote YES for the proposed Const.... Date: Wed, 26 May 2010 03:53:54 -0700 (PDT) From: Wamuyu Gatheru <wamuyulearn@yahoo.co.uk> To: alice@apc.org CC: reformsnow@lists.reformsnow.or.ke
Hi all, We are still struggling to get Constitutional reform behind us. Please find attached a brief question and answer write out done by Njoki Ndungu, a COE Commissioner, breaking down some issues: how muslims pay for Christian, Hindu etc marriages, what ratification of an international treaty means, how devolution will work...
*Today's Fact*: If we vote YES for the proposed Constitution no proposed legislation can be delayed for longer than one year beyond the time specified for its enactment (see the 5th schedule on legislation). For example, new law on Citizenship (dual citizenship, women passing on citizenship to spouses after 7 years, law abiding residents obtaining citizenship after 7 years...) should be in place in one year. If after 2 years this legislation is not in place, Parliament will be ordered by the High Court to enact the legislation within a specified period of time. If Parliament fails to obey this order, _Parliament will be dissolved_.
regards, Wamuyu
P/S Invite your networks to this mailing list (reformsnow@lists.reformsnow.or.ke) Facts on political reforms will be posted regularly.
-- Sent from my mobile device Wainaina Mungai ----- http://www.bungesms.com http://www.madeinkenya.org http://www.wainainamungai.com Thousands of candles can be lighted from a single candle, and the life of the candle will not be shortened. Happiness never decreases by being shared. ~ Buddha~
@ Alice + Wainaina, Still trying to see the link btwn the proposed constitution and ICT. I know there is but your discourse into abortion and kadhi's courts will surely get us into endless murky waters... If we have to talk constitution, then maybe provide the link with ICT. I know one link that puts the independence of Press Freedom into the constitution. This is likely to throw the spanners into numerous (govt+private) agencies purpoting to regulate broadcast and other media... walu. --- On Wed, 5/26/10, Wainaina Mungai <wainaina@madeinkenya.org> wrote: From: Wainaina Mungai <wainaina@madeinkenya.org> Subject: Re: [kictanet] [Fwd: [reformsnow] If we vote YES for the proposed Constitution To: jwalu@yahoo.com Cc: "KICTAnet ICT Policy Discussions" <kictanet@lists.kictanet.or.ke> Date: Wednesday, May 26, 2010, 6:21 PM Since this has been brought up on-list, I presume we are free to comment on-list ;-) My comments are on the link between; a) Abortion and 'any other written law' in the context of international law that may allow abortion or 'county law' that may be determined after we pass the draft. Will treaties of other international instruments that are automatically effected via this draft be considered 'any other written law'? b) From my little reading, Kadhi courts are not 'customary courts' in the same way as native courts, which became 'magistrates courts'. They are RELIGIOUS COURTS. Let's not pretend about that. If they were similar to magistrates courts as put forward by our 'expert', then a Christian or Hindu student of Islamic law may as well qualify to be appointed as a Kadhi. Kadhi courts are not open courts the same way as a muslim or Hindu can be appointed as a magistrate or Chief Justice. A Christian or Hindu woman who proves himself in administering Islamic law cannot become a Kadhi, even if he is the financier (tax-payer) of such courts. Overall, this CoE draft seems like a Yes. It is only fair if we start to identify the bits of the draft that need to be amended once it is passed. The No campaign at the previous referendum always used to remind us that one rotten potato spoils the whole sack of potatoes. What has changed? Doesn't that wisdom still apply? ;-) There is alot Banking sector is concerned about in relation to the chapter on land and manufacturers/investors have queries that have gone unanswered in attempts to avoid being branded a 'no' campaigner. I say, vote for the draft on condition we also agree on things that must be amended either before or after August 2010. Even the pro-yes brigade of President Kibaki and PM Raila admit it is not perfect and 'tutabadilisha hapo pengine'. Let's discuss the 'hapo pengine' today, not after 4th August. On 5/26/10, alice <alice@apc.org> wrote:
Dear all
For those following (all Kenyans of course...) the constitutional review process, please see below.
best
alice
-------- Original Message -------- Subject: [reformsnow] If we vote YES for the proposed Const.... Date: Wed, 26 May 2010 03:53:54 -0700 (PDT) From: Wamuyu Gatheru <wamuyulearn@yahoo.co.uk> To: alice@apc.org CC: reformsnow@lists.reformsnow.or.ke
Hi all, We are still struggling to get Constitutional reform behind us. Please find attached a brief question and answer write out done by Njoki Ndungu, a COE Commissioner, breaking down some issues: how muslims pay for Christian, Hindu etc marriages, what ratification of an international treaty means, how devolution will work...
*Today's Fact*: If we vote YES for the proposed Constitution no proposed legislation can be delayed for longer than one year beyond the time specified for its enactment (see the 5th schedule on legislation). For example, new law on Citizenship (dual citizenship, women passing on citizenship to spouses after 7 years, law abiding residents obtaining citizenship after 7 years...) should be in place in one year. If after 2 years this legislation is not in place, Parliament will be ordered by the High Court to enact the legislation within a specified period of time. If Parliament fails to obey this order, _Parliament will be dissolved_.
regards, Wamuyu
P/S Invite your networks to this mailing list (reformsnow@lists.reformsnow.or.ke) Facts on political reforms will be posted regularly.
-- Sent from my mobile device Wainaina Mungai ----- http://www.bungesms.com http://www.madeinkenya.org http://www.wainainamungai.com Thousands of candles can be lighted from a single candle, and the life of the candle will not be shortened. Happiness never decreases by being shared. ~ Buddha~ _______________________________________________ kictanet mailing list kictanet@lists.kictanet.or.ke http://lists.kictanet.or.ke/mailman/listinfo/kictanet This message was sent to: jwalu@yahoo.com Unsubscribe or change your options at http://lists.kictanet.or.ke/mailman/options/kictanet/jwalu%40yahoo.com
A few things to note based on previous comments. a) Constitutional links to ICT: The 'Minister'/Secretary of Info and Communications will be a technocrat vetted by Parliament. The 'CCK' will be an independent body meeting the standards of an independent Public Service Commission. The 'CCK' will be independent of govt, political or commercial interests and in place in 3yrs and its board also vetted by a Parliamentary committee. Incidentally on division of labour between national govt and Counties only Telcoms, postal, radio and TV are mentioned (national govt). The divison of labour appears silent on the internet/electronic media b) Wainaina/Murigi, its important to keep site of the goal of constitutional reform. Its to avoid Kenya becoming a failed state particularly due to lack of Presidential accountability and general political impunity. Lets keep our eyes on the goal and ensure that we secure national stability and peace first. The issue you raise on international treaties is covered in Njoki's doc: a treaty becomes effective with ratification in Parliament. On sharia law, my understanding is that sharia law is mandatory for all within a sharia jurisdiction. This is not the case with the Kadhi's court. Will take the liberty to subscribe you to (reformsnow@lists.reformsnow.or.ke) where more around these reforms will be posted. Provision is made for unsubscribing. regards, Wamuyu ________________________________ From: Walubengo J <jwalu@yahoo.com> To: wamuyulearn@yahoo.co.uk Cc: KICTAnet ICT Policy Discussions <kictanet@lists.kictanet.or.ke> Sent: Thu, 27 May, 2010 11:49:26 Subject: Re: [kictanet] If we vote YES for the proposed Constitution-link to ICT @ Alice + Wainaina, Still trying to see the link btwn the proposed constitution and ICT. I know there is but your discourse into abortion and kadhi's courts will surely get us into endless murky waters... If we have to talk constitution, then maybe provide the link with ICT. I know one link that puts the independence of Press Freedom into the constitution. This is likely to throw the spanners into numerous (govt+private) agencies purpoting to regulate broadcast and other media... walu. --- On Wed, 5/26/10, Wainaina Mungai <wainaina@madeinkenya.org> wrote:
From: Wainaina Mungai <wainaina@madeinkenya.org> Subject: Re: [kictanet] [Fwd: [reformsnow] If we vote YES for the proposed Constitution To: jwalu@yahoo.com Cc: "KICTAnet ICT Policy Discussions" <kictanet@lists.kictanet.or.ke> Date: Wednesday, May 26, 2010, 6:21 PM
Since this has been brought up on-list, I presume we are free to comment on-list ;-)
My comments are on the link between; a) Abortion and 'any other written law' in the context of international law that may allow abortion or 'county law' that may be determined after we pass the draft. Will treaties of other international instruments that are automatically effected via this draft be considered 'any other written law'?
b) From my little reading, Kadhi courts are not 'customary courts' in the same way as native courts, which became 'magistrates courts'. They are RELIGIOUS COURTS. Let's not pretend about that. If they were similar to magistrates courts as put forward by our 'expert', then a Christian or Hindu student of Islamic law may as well qualify to be appointed as a Kadhi. Kadhi courts are not open courts the same way as a muslim or Hindu can be appointed as a magistrate or Chief Justice.
A Christian or Hindu woman who proves himself in administering Islamic law cannot become a Kadhi, even if he is the financier (tax-payer) of such courts.
Overall, this CoE draft seems like a Yes. It is only fair if we start to identify the bits of the draft that need to be amended once it is passed. The No campaign at the previous referendum always used to remind us that one rotten potato spoils the whole sack of potatoes. What has changed? Doesn't that wisdom still apply? ;-) There is alot Banking sector is concerned about in relation to the chapter on land and manufacturers/investors have queries that have gone unanswered in attempts to avoid being branded a 'no' campaigner.
I say, vote for the draft on condition we also agree on things that must be amended either before or after August 2010. Even the pro-yes brigade of President Kibaki and PM Raila admit it is not perfect and 'tutabadilisha hapo pengine'.
Let's discuss the 'hapo pengine' today, not after 4th August.
On 5/26/10, alice <alice@apc.org> wrote:
Dear all
For those following (all Kenyans of course...) the constitutional review process, please see below.
best
alice
-------- Original Message -------- Subject: [reformsnow] If we vote YES for the proposed Const.... Date: Wed, 26 May 2010 03:53:54 -0700 (PDT) From: Wamuyu Gatheru <wamuyulearn@yahoo.co.uk> To: alice@apc.org CC: reformsnow@lists.reformsnow.or.ke
Hi all, We are still struggling to get Constitutional reform behind us. Please find attached a brief question and answer write out done by Njoki Ndungu, a COE Commissioner, breaking down some issues: how muslims pay for Christian, Hindu etc marriages, what ratification of an international treaty means, how devolution will work...
*Today's Fact*: If we vote YES for the proposed Constitution no proposed legislation can be delayed for longer than one year beyond the time specified for its enactment (see the 5th schedule on legislation). For example, new law on Citizenship (dual citizenship, women passing on citizenship to spouses after 7 years, law abiding residents obtaining citizenship after 7 years...) should be in place in one year. If after 2 years this legislation is not in place, Parliament will be ordered by the High Court to enact the legislation within a specified period of time. If Parliament fails to obey this order, _Parliament will be dissolved_.
regards, Wamuyu
P/S Invite your networks to this mailing list (reformsnow@lists.reformsnow.or.ke) Facts on political reforms will be posted regularly.
-- Sent from my mobile device
Wainaina Mungai ----- http://www.bungesms.com http://www.madeinkenya.org http://www.wainainamungai.com
Thousands of candles can be lighted from a single candle, and the life of the candle will not be shortened. Happiness never decreases by being shared. ~ Buddha~
_______________________________________________ kictanet mailing list kictanet@lists.kictanet.or.ke http://lists.kictanet.or.ke/mailman/listinfo/kictanet
This message was sent to: jwalu@yahoo.com Unsubscribe or change your options at http://lists.kictanet.or.ke/mailman/options/kictanet/jwalu%40yahoo.com
Thanks Wamuyu for the clarification With very few ministers/secretaries under the proposed constitution , this may be the last time to have a minister responsible for the Info com only . most likely it will be mixed under a larger ministry? What happens to the Tribunal? Cheers MM From: kictanet-bounces+mureithi=summitstrategies.co.ke@lists.kictanet.or.ke [mailto:kictanet-bounces+mureithi=summitstrategies.co.ke@lists.kictanet.or.k e] On Behalf Of Wamuyu Gatheru Sent: 27 May 2010 17:09 To: mureithi@summitstrategies.co.ke Cc: KICTAnet ICT Policy Discussions Subject: Re: [kictanet] If we vote YES for the proposed Constitution-link to ICT A few things to note based on previous comments. a) Constitutional links to ICT: The 'Minister'/Secretary of Info and Communications will be a technocrat vetted by Parliament. The 'CCK' will be an independent body meeting the standards of an independent Public Service Commission. The 'CCK' will be independent of govt, political or commercial interests and in place in 3yrs and its board also vetted by a Parliamentary committee. Incidentally on division of labour between national govt and Counties only Telcoms, postal, radio and TV are mentioned (national govt). The divison of labour appears silent on the internet/electronic media b) Wainaina/Murigi, its important to keep site of the goal of constitutional reform. Its to avoid Kenya becoming a failed state particularly due to lack of Presidential accountability and general political impunity. Lets keep our eyes on the goal and ensure that we secure national stability and peace first. The issue you raise on international treaties is covered in Njoki's doc: a treaty becomes effective with ratification in Parliament. On sharia law, my understanding is that sharia law is mandatory for all within a sharia jurisdiction. This is not the case with the Kadhi's court. Will take the liberty to subscribe you to (reformsnow@lists.reformsnow.or.ke <http://us.mc578.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=reformsnow@lists.reformsnow.or .ke> ) where more around these reforms will be posted. Provision is made for unsubscribing. regards, Wamuyu _____ From: Walubengo J <jwalu@yahoo.com> To: wamuyulearn@yahoo.co.uk Cc: KICTAnet ICT Policy Discussions <kictanet@lists.kictanet.or.ke> Sent: Thu, 27 May, 2010 11:49:26 Subject: Re: [kictanet] If we vote YES for the proposed Constitution-link to ICT @ Alice + Wainaina, Still trying to see the link btwn the proposed constitution and ICT. I know there is but your discourse into abortion and kadhi's courts will surely get us into endless murky waters... If we have to talk constitution, then maybe provide the link with ICT. I know one link that puts the independence of Press Freedom into the constitution. This is likely to throw the spanners into numerous (govt+private) agencies purpoting to regulate broadcast and other media... walu. --- On Wed, 5/26/10, Wainaina Mungai <wainaina@madeinkenya.org> wrote: From: Wainaina Mungai <wainaina@madeinkenya.org> Subject: Re: [kictanet] [Fwd: [reformsnow] If we vote YES for the proposed Constitution To: jwalu@yahoo.com Cc: "KICTAnet ICT Policy Discussions" <kictanet@lists.kictanet.or.ke> Date: Wednesday, May 26, 2010, 6:21 PM Since this has been brought up on-list, I presume we are free to comment on-list ;-) My comments are on the link between; a) Abortion and 'any other written law' in the context of international law that may allow abortion or 'county law' that may be determined after we pass the draft. Will treaties of other international instruments that are automatically effected via this draft be considered 'any other written law'? b) From my little reading, Kadhi courts are not 'customary courts' in the same way as native courts, which became 'magistrates courts'. They are RELIGIOUS COURTS. Let's not pretend about that. If they were similar to magistrates courts as put forward by our 'expert', then a Christian or Hindu student of Islamic law may as well qualify to be appointed as a Kadhi. Kadhi courts are not open courts the same way as a muslim or Hindu can be appointed as a magistrate or Chief Justice. A Christian or Hindu woman who proves himself in administering Islamic law cannot become a Kadhi, even if he is the financier (tax-payer) of such courts. Overall, this CoE draft seems like a Yes. It is only fair if we start to identify the bits of the draft that need to be amended once it is passed. The No campaign at the previous referendum always used to remind us that one rotten potato spoils the whole sack of potatoes. What has changed? Doesn't that wisdom still apply? ;-) There is alot Banking sector is concerned about in relation to the chapter on land and manufacturers/investors have queries that have gone unanswered in attempts to avoid being branded a 'no' campaigner. I say, vote for the draft on condition we also agree on things that must be amended either before or after August 2010. Even the pro-yes brigade of President Kibaki and PM Raila admit it is not perfect and 'tutabadilisha hapo pengine'. Let's discuss the 'hapo pengine' today, not after 4th August. On 5/26/10, alice <alice@apc.org <http://us.mc578.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=alice@apc.org> > wrote:
Dear all
For those following (all Kenyans of course...) the constitutional review process, please see below.
best
alice
-------- Original Message -------- Subject: [reformsnow] If we vote YES for the proposed Const.... Date: Wed, 26 May 2010 03:53:54 -0700 (PDT) From: Wamuyu Gatheru <wamuyulearn@yahoo.co.uk <http://us.mc578.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=wamuyulearn@yahoo.co.uk> > To: alice@apc.org <http://us.mc578.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=alice@apc.org> CC: reformsnow@lists.reformsnow.or.ke <http://us.mc578.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=reformsnow@lists.reformsnow.or .ke>
Hi all, We are still struggling to get Constitutional reform behind us. Please find attached a brief question and answer write out done by Njoki Ndungu, a COE Commissioner, breaking down some issues: how muslims pay for Christian, Hindu etc marriages, what ratification of an international treaty means, how devolution will work...
*Today's Fact*: If we vote YES for the proposed Constitution no proposed legislation can be delayed for longer than one year beyond the time specified for its enactment (see the 5th schedule on legislation). For example, new law on Citizenship (dual citizenship, women passing on citizenship to spouses after 7 years, law abiding residents obtaining citizenship after 7 years...) should be in place in one year. If after 2 years this legislation is not in place, Parliament will be ordered by the High Court to enact the legislation within a specified period of time. If Parliament fails to obey this order, _Parliament will be dissolved_.
regards, Wamuyu
P/S Invite your networks to this mailing list (reformsnow@lists.reformsnow.or.ke <http://us.mc578.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=reformsnow@lists.reformsnow.or .ke> ) Facts on political reforms will be posted regularly.
-- Sent from my mobile device Wainaina Mungai ----- http://www.bungesms.com <http://www.bungesms.com/> http://www.madeinkenya.org <http://www.madeinkenya.org/> http://www.wainainamungai.com <http://www.wainainamungai.com/> Thousands of candles can be lighted from a single candle, and the life of the candle will not be shortened. Happiness never decreases by being shared. ~ Buddha~ _______________________________________________ kictanet mailing list kictanet@lists.kictanet.or.ke <http://us.mc578.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=kictanet@lists.kictanet.or.ke> http://lists.kictanet.or.ke/mailman/listinfo/kictanet This message was sent to: jwalu@yahoo.com <http://us.mc578.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=jwalu@yahoo.com> Unsubscribe or change your options at http://lists.kictanet.or.ke/mailman/options/kictanet/jwalu%40yahoo.com
While Kenyan media, lawyers and politicians lie to Kenyans that there is no shariah in our draft constitution, in other nations, there is more integrity in reporting http://www.thejakartapost.com/news/2010/05/21/a- ‘difficult-marriage’-sharia-and-civil-law-indonesia.html On Wed, May 26, 2010 at 4:45 PM, alice <alice@apc.org> wrote:
Dear all
For those following (all Kenyans of course...) the constitutional review process, please see below.
best
alice
-------- Original Message -------- Subject: [reformsnow] If we vote YES for the proposed Const.... Date: Wed, 26 May 2010 03:53:54 -0700 (PDT) From: Wamuyu Gatheru <wamuyulearn@yahoo.co.uk> To: alice@apc.org CC: reformsnow@lists.reformsnow.or.ke
Hi all, We are still struggling to get Constitutional reform behind us. Please find attached a brief question and answer write out done by Njoki Ndungu, a COE Commissioner, breaking down some issues: how muslims pay for Christian, Hindu etc marriages, what ratification of an international treaty means, how devolution will work...
*Today's Fact*: If we vote YES for the proposed Constitution no proposed legislation can be delayed for longer than one year beyond the time specified for its enactment (see the 5th schedule on legislation). For example, new law on Citizenship (dual citizenship, women passing on citizenship to spouses after 7 years, law abiding residents obtaining citizenship after 7 years...) should be in place in one year. If after 2 years this legislation is not in place, Parliament will be ordered by the High Court to enact the legislation within a specified period of time. If Parliament fails to obey this order, _Parliament will be dissolved_.
regards, Wamuyu
P/S Invite your networks to this mailing list ( reformsnow@lists.reformsnow.or.ke) Facts on political reforms will be posted regularly.
_______________________________________________ kictanet mailing list kictanet@lists.kictanet.or.ke http://lists.kictanet.or.ke/mailman/listinfo/kictanet
This message was sent to: murigi.muraya@gmail.com Unsubscribe or change your options at http://lists.kictanet.or.ke/mailman/options/kictanet/murigi.muraya%40gmail.c...
participants (6)
-
alice -
muriuki mureithi -
S.Murigi Muraya -
Wainaina Mungai -
Walubengo J -
Wamuyu Gatheru