Is an online sales tax good for eCommerce? What are the regulatory environments for eCommerce in Africa?
Listers As the US and Europe debate and implement an online sales tax Africa lacks behind in defining the regulatory environment. What are African Governments in general and Kenya in particular doing to ensure that eCommerce isn't throttled at this early stage? Does anyone have any idea? http://thehill.com/blogs/hillicon-valley/technology/298165-house-chairman-a-... Regards* * *Ali Hussein* *CEO, 3mice interactive media ltd* *Partner, Telemedia Africa Ltd * Tel: +254713601113 Twitter: @AliHKassim Skype: abu-jomo LinkedIn: http://ke.linkedin.com/in/alihkassim<http://ke.linkedin.com/in/alihkassim> Blog: www.alyhussein.com Any information of a personal nature expressed in this email are purely mine and do not necessarily reflect the official positions of the organizations that I work with.
Ali,listers, If volume is small,which I think it is at the moment in our country,there is little merit in taxing at this early stage.It is better to let it flourish and introduce tax later when much revenue may be realised. John Kariuki Sent from my BlackBerry® -----Original Message----- From: Ali Hussein <ali@hussein.me.ke> Sender: "kictanet" <kictanet-bounces+ngethe.kariuki2007=yahoo.co.uk@lists.kictanet.or.ke> Date: Thu, 9 May 2013 04:43:58 To: <ngethe.kariuki2007@yahoo.co.uk> Cc: KICTAnet ICT Policy Discussions<kictanet@lists.kictanet.or.ke> Subject: [kictanet] Is an online sales tax good for eCommerce? What are the regulatory environments for eCommerce in Africa? _______________________________________________ kictanet mailing list kictanet@lists.kictanet.or.ke https://lists.kictanet.or.ke/mailman/listinfo/kictanet Unsubscribe or change your options at https://lists.kictanet.or.ke/mailman/options/kictanet/ngethe.kariuki2007%40y... The Kenya ICT Action Network (KICTANet) is a multi-stakeholder platform for people and institutions interested and involved in ICT policy and regulation. The network aims to act as a catalyst for reform in the ICT sector in support of the national aim of ICT enabled growth and development. KICTANetiquette : Adhere to the same standards of acceptable behaviors online that you follow in real life: respect people's times and bandwidth, share knowledge, don't flame or abuse or personalize, respect privacy, do not spam, do not market your wares or qualifications.
Ngethe Good point. The legislation though is either non-existent or unclear. Or am I mistaken? Ali Hussein CEO | 3mice interactive media Ltd Principal | Telemedia Africa Ltd +254 713 601113 "The future belongs to him who knows how to wait." - Russian Proverb Sent from my iPad On May 9, 2013, at 9:11 PM, ngethe.kariuki2007@yahoo.co.uk wrote:
Ali,listers, If volume is small,which I think it is at the moment in our country,there is little merit in taxing at this early stage.It is better to let it flourish and introduce tax later when much revenue may be realised.
John Kariuki Sent from my BlackBerry®
-----Original Message----- From: Ali Hussein <ali@hussein.me.ke> Sender: "kictanet" <kictanet-bounces+ngethe.kariuki2007=yahoo.co.uk@lists.kictanet.or.ke> Date: Thu, 9 May 2013 04:43:58 To: <ngethe.kariuki2007@yahoo.co.uk> Cc: KICTAnet ICT Policy Discussions<kictanet@lists.kictanet.or.ke> Subject: [kictanet] Is an online sales tax good for eCommerce? What are the regulatory environments for eCommerce in Africa?
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Ali, In my humble opinion,the priority legislation required now is mainly on matters regarding the fact that goods are being bought without face-to-face contact between buyer and seller and issues may arise on quality of goods,not fit for purpose,return of goods,refund of payment etc.You will notice that these are largely consumer protection matters in relation to what some countries call "Distance Selling". Just some thoughts. Sent from my BlackBerry® -----Original Message----- From: Ali Hussein <ali@hussein.me.ke> Date: Thu, 9 May 2013 22:24:14 To: ngethe.kariuki2007@yahoo.co.uk<ngethe.kariuki2007@yahoo.co.uk> Cc: kictanet<kictanet-bounces+ngethe.kariuki2007=yahoo.co.uk@lists.kictanet.or.ke>; KICTAnet ICT Policy Discussions<kictanet@lists.kictanet.or.ke> Subject: Re: [kictanet] Is an online sales tax good for eCommerce? What are the regulatory environments for eCommerce in Africa? Ngethe Good point. The legislation though is either non-existent or unclear. Or am I mistaken? Ali Hussein CEO | 3mice interactive media Ltd Principal | Telemedia Africa Ltd +254 713 601113 "The future belongs to him who knows how to wait." - Russian Proverb Sent from my iPad On May 9, 2013, at 9:11 PM, ngethe.kariuki2007@yahoo.co.uk wrote:
Ali,listers, If volume is small,which I think it is at the moment in our country,there is little merit in taxing at this early stage.It is better to let it flourish and introduce tax later when much revenue may be realised.
John Kariuki Sent from my BlackBerry®
-----Original Message----- From: Ali Hussein <ali@hussein.me.ke> Sender: "kictanet" <kictanet-bounces+ngethe.kariuki2007=yahoo.co.uk@lists.kictanet.or.ke> Date: Thu, 9 May 2013 04:43:58 To: <ngethe.kariuki2007@yahoo.co.uk> Cc: KICTAnet ICT Policy Discussions<kictanet@lists.kictanet.or.ke> Subject: [kictanet] Is an online sales tax good for eCommerce? What are the regulatory environments for eCommerce in Africa?
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The Kenya ICT Action Network (KICTANet) is a multi-stakeholder platform for people and institutions interested and involved in ICT policy and regulation. The network aims to act as a catalyst for reform in the ICT sector in support of the national aim of ICT enabled growth and development.
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Well, we still have our good ol VAT Act which applies to goods and services - without distinction as to the means through which the transaction has occurred, which in a sense means we have online sales covered. Then there is the question of loss of taxes especially for those transactions involving income "made in Kenya" by companies i.e. the eBays, Apples, Googles, based outside Kenya operating online and transacting "in Kenya" - do they pay VAT, or income tax (where applicable)? Victor Victor Kapiyo, LL.B ==================================================== *“Your attitude, not your aptitude, will determine your altitude” Zig Ziglar * On 9 May 2013 20:46, <ngethe.kariuki2007@yahoo.co.uk> wrote:
Ali, In my humble opinion,the priority legislation required now is mainly on matters regarding the fact that goods are being bought without face-to-face contact between buyer and seller and issues may arise on quality of goods,not fit for purpose,return of goods,refund of payment etc.You will notice that these are largely consumer protection matters in relation to what some countries call "Distance Selling". Just some thoughts. Sent from my BlackBerry® ------------------------------ *From: * Ali Hussein <ali@hussein.me.ke> *Date: *Thu, 9 May 2013 22:24:14 +0530 *To: *ngethe.kariuki2007@yahoo.co.uk<ngethe.kariuki2007@yahoo.co.uk> *Cc: *kictanet<kictanet-bounces+ngethe.kariuki2007= yahoo.co.uk@lists.kictanet.or.ke>; KICTAnet ICT Policy Discussions< kictanet@lists.kictanet.or.ke> *Subject: *Re: [kictanet] Is an online sales tax good for eCommerce? What are the regulatory environments for eCommerce in Africa?
Ngethe
Good point. The legislation though is either non-existent or unclear. Or am I mistaken?
Ali Hussein CEO | 3mice interactive media Ltd Principal | Telemedia Africa Ltd
+254 713 601113
"The future belongs to him who knows how to wait." - Russian Proverb
Sent from my iPad
On May 9, 2013, at 9:11 PM, ngethe.kariuki2007@yahoo.co.uk wrote:
Ali,listers, If volume is small,which I think it is at the moment in our country,there is little merit in taxing at this early stage.It is better to let it flourish and introduce tax later when much revenue may be realised.
John Kariuki Sent from my BlackBerry®
-----Original Message----- From: Ali Hussein <ali@hussein.me.ke> Sender: "kictanet" <kictanet-bounces+ngethe.kariuki2007=yahoo.co.uk@lists.kictanet.or.ke> Date: Thu, 9 May 2013 04:43:58 To: <ngethe.kariuki2007@yahoo.co.uk> Cc: KICTAnet ICT Policy Discussions<kictanet@lists.kictanet.or.ke> Subject: [kictanet] Is an online sales tax good for eCommerce? What are the regulatory environments for eCommerce in Africa?
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The Kenya ICT Action Network (KICTANet) is a multi-stakeholder platform for people and institutions interested and involved in ICT policy and regulation. The network aims to act as a catalyst for reform in the ICT sector in support of the national aim of ICT enabled growth and development.
KICTANetiquette : Adhere to the same standards of acceptable behaviors online that you follow in real life: respect people's times and bandwidth, share knowledge, don't flame or abuse or personalize, respect privacy, do not spam, do not market your wares or qualifications.
Thanks guys. That's the crux of the matter really. So victor, as a lawyer what's your take? When the law is silent? For example jumia.co.ke just opened for business in Kenya. Do they remit taxes including VAT to KRA? How are they structured? Are they a registered Kenyan Company? or are they domiciled in Mauritius for tax purposes? ICT Researcher, usually innovation moves ahead of regulation (the case of Mpesa is a good example of that) but eventually regulation catches up. My opinion is that this should balance the computing interests of Government, free enterprise and consumer protection which in my opinion are not aligned most of the time. As an African ICT Hub should we also be leading the way in finding/crafting the best regulator environment or should we let nature to take its course? Ali Hussein CEO | 3mice interactive media Ltd Principal | Telemedia Africa Ltd +254 713 601113 "The future belongs to him who knows how to wait." - Russian Proverb Sent from my iPad On May 10, 2013, at 3:50 AM, Victor Kapiyo <vkapiyo@gmail.com> wrote:
Well, we still have our good ol VAT Act which applies to goods and services - without distinction as to the means through which the transaction has occurred, which in a sense means we have online sales covered.
Then there is the question of loss of taxes especially for those transactions involving income "made in Kenya" by companies i.e. the eBays, Apples, Googles, based outside Kenya operating online and transacting "in Kenya" - do they pay VAT, or income tax (where applicable)?
Victor
Victor Kapiyo, LL.B
==================================================== “Your attitude, not your aptitude, will determine your altitude” Zig Ziglar
On 9 May 2013 20:46, <ngethe.kariuki2007@yahoo.co.uk> wrote:
Ali, In my humble opinion,the priority legislation required now is mainly on matters regarding the fact that goods are being bought without face-to-face contact between buyer and seller and issues may arise on quality of goods,not fit for purpose,return of goods,refund of payment etc.You will notice that these are largely consumer protection matters in relation to what some countries call "Distance Selling". Just some thoughts. Sent from my BlackBerry® From: Ali Hussein <ali@hussein.me.ke> Date: Thu, 9 May 2013 22:24:14 +0530 To: ngethe.kariuki2007@yahoo.co.uk<ngethe.kariuki2007@yahoo.co.uk> Cc: kictanet<kictanet-bounces+ngethe.kariuki2007=yahoo.co.uk@lists.kictanet.or.ke>; KICTAnet ICT Policy Discussions<kictanet@lists.kictanet.or.ke> Subject: Re: [kictanet] Is an online sales tax good for eCommerce? What are the regulatory environments for eCommerce in Africa?
Ngethe
Good point. The legislation though is either non-existent or unclear. Or am I mistaken?
Ali Hussein CEO | 3mice interactive media Ltd Principal | Telemedia Africa Ltd
+254 713 601113
"The future belongs to him who knows how to wait." - Russian Proverb
Sent from my iPad
On May 9, 2013, at 9:11 PM, ngethe.kariuki2007@yahoo.co.uk wrote:
Ali,listers, If volume is small,which I think it is at the moment in our country,there is little merit in taxing at this early stage.It is better to let it flourish and introduce tax later when much revenue may be realised.
John Kariuki Sent from my BlackBerry®
-----Original Message----- From: Ali Hussein <ali@hussein.me.ke> Sender: "kictanet" <kictanet-bounces+ngethe.kariuki2007=yahoo.co.uk@lists.kictanet.or.ke> Date: Thu, 9 May 2013 04:43:58 To: <ngethe.kariuki2007@yahoo.co.uk> Cc: KICTAnet ICT Policy Discussions<kictanet@lists.kictanet.or.ke> Subject: [kictanet] Is an online sales tax good for eCommerce? What are the regulatory environments for eCommerce in Africa?
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KICTANetiquette : Adhere to the same standards of acceptable behaviors online that you follow in real life: respect people's times and bandwidth, share knowledge, don't flame or abuse or personalize, respect privacy, do not spam, do not market your wares or qualifications.
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The Kenya ICT Action Network (KICTANet) is a multi-stakeholder platform for people and institutions interested and involved in ICT policy and regulation. The network aims to act as a catalyst for reform in the ICT sector in support of the national aim of ICT enabled growth and development.
KICTANetiquette : Adhere to the same standards of acceptable behaviors online that you follow in real life: respect people's times and bandwidth, share knowledge, don't flame or abuse or personalize, respect privacy, do not spam, do not market your wares or qualifications.
eCommerce sales tax is a complex and emerging issue even in developed economies. Quick challenge examples include: 1. How do you tax a digital good - given that KRA/Customs guys are used to "physically inspecting" before taxing. Say I pay for a music download from Safaricom/Google/Apple app_store, or buy a digital book from amazon.com, where and how does KRA come in? They dont even know the transaction took place :-) 2. In case of a physical good bought online, the KRA guys can and will catch it at the port of entry. Chances are that if you bought it on amazon.com, the Americans may have taxed the good at the port of "exit" and the Kenyans will want to tax it at the port of "entry". End result, the good becomes too expensive = discouraging online trading. 3. What of e-Services? Maybe I ran an online workshop/research/consultancy to some locals inhabiting some islands in the Bahamas and I got paid nicely. How does KRA know about this, and should they?Or I developed an online application for Nokia which is selling well online and am picking royalties, should I copy in KRA? This are just some quick thoughts...but I agree with other listers, let the ecommerce industry pick up, then bring in the taxation later. However, we do need to thing around these issues in advance. walu. ------------------------------------------------------- From: Ali Hussein <ali@hussein.me.ke> To: jwalu@yahoo.com Cc: kictanet <kictanet-bounces+ngethe.kariuki2007=yahoo.co.uk@lists.kictanet.or.ke>; KICTAnet ICT Policy Discussions <kictanet@lists.kictanet.or.ke> Sent: Friday, May 10, 2013 4:41 AM Subject: Re: [kictanet] Is an online sales tax good for eCommerce? What are the regulatory environments for eCommerce in Africa? Thanks guys. That's the crux of the matter really. So victor, as a lawyer what's your take? When the law is silent? For example jumia.co.ke just opened for business in Kenya. Do they remit taxes including VAT to KRA? How are they structured? Are they a registered Kenyan Company? or are they domiciled in Mauritius for tax purposes? ICT Researcher, usually innovation moves ahead of regulation (the case of Mpesa is a good example of that) but eventually regulation catches up. My opinion is that this should balance the computing interests of Government, free enterprise and consumer protection which in my opinion are not aligned most of the time. As an African ICT Hub should we also be leading the way in finding/crafting the best regulator environment or should we let nature to take its course? Ali Hussein CEO | 3mice interactive media Ltd Principal | Telemedia Africa Ltd +254 713 601113 "The future belongs to him who knows how to wait." - Russian Proverb Sent from my iPad On May 10, 2013, at 3:50 AM, Victor Kapiyo <vkapiyo@gmail.com> wrote: Well, we still have our good ol VAT Act which applies to goods and services - without distinction as to the means through which the transaction has occurred, which in a sense means we have online sales covered.
Then there is the question of loss of taxes especially for those transactions involving income "made in Kenya" by companies i.e. the eBays, Apples, Googles, based outside Kenya operating online and transacting "in Kenya" - do they pay VAT, or income tax (where applicable)?
Victor
Victor Kapiyo, LL.B ==================================================== “Your attitude, not your aptitude, will determine your altitude” Zig Ziglar
On 9 May 2013 20:46, <ngethe.kariuki2007@yahoo.co.uk> wrote:
Ali,
In my humble opinion,the priority legislation required now is mainly on matters regarding the fact that goods are being bought without face-to-face contact between buyer and seller and issues may arise on quality of goods,not fit for purpose,return of goods,refund of payment etc.You will notice that these are largely consumer protection matters in relation to what some countries call "Distance Selling". Just some thoughts. Sent from my BlackBerry® ________________________________
From: Ali Hussein <ali@hussein.me.ke> Date: Thu, 9 May 2013 22:24:14 +0530 To: ngethe.kariuki2007@yahoo.co.uk<ngethe.kariuki2007@yahoo.co.uk> Cc: kictanet<kictanet-bounces+ngethe.kariuki2007=yahoo.co.uk@lists.kictanet.or.ke>; KICTAnet ICT Policy Discussions<kictanet@lists.kictanet.or.ke> Subject: Re: [kictanet] Is an online sales tax good for eCommerce? What are the regulatory environments for eCommerce in Africa?
Ngethe
Good point. The legislation though is either non-existent or unclear. Or am I mistaken?
Ali Hussein CEO | 3mice interactive media Ltd Principal | Telemedia Africa Ltd
+254 713 601113
"The future belongs to him who knows how to wait." - Russian Proverb
Sent from my iPad
On May 9, 2013, at 9:11 PM, ngethe.kariuki2007@yahoo.co.uk wrote:
Ali,listers,
If volume is small,which I think it is at the moment in our country,there is little merit in taxing at this early stage.It is better to let it flourish and introduce tax later when much revenue may be realised.
John Kariuki Sent from my BlackBerry®
-----Original Message----- From: Ali Hussein <ali@hussein.me.ke> Sender: "kictanet" <kictanet-bounces+ngethe.kariuki2007=yahoo.co.uk@lists.kictanet.or.ke> Date: Thu, 9 May 2013 04:43:58 To: <ngethe.kariuki2007@yahoo.co.uk> Cc: KICTAnet ICT Policy Discussions<kictanet@lists.kictanet.or.ke> Subject: [kictanet] Is an online sales tax good for eCommerce? What are the regulatory environments for eCommerce in Africa?
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The Kenya ICT Action Network (KICTANet) is a multi-stakeholder platform for people and institutions interested and involved in ICT policy and regulation. The network aims to act as a catalyst for reform in the ICT sector in support of the national aim of ICT enabled growth and development.
KICTANetiquette : Adhere to the same standards of acceptable behaviors online that you follow in real life: respect people's times and bandwidth, share knowledge, don't flame or abuse or personalize, respect privacy, do not spam, do not market your wares or qualifications.
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The Kenya ICT Action Network (KICTANet) is a multi-stakeholder platform for people and institutions interested and involved in ICT policy and regulation. The network aims to act as a catalyst for reform in the ICT sector in support of the national aim of ICT enabled growth and development.
KICTANetiquette : Adhere to the same standards of acceptable behaviors online that you follow in real life: respect people's times and bandwidth, share knowledge, don't flame or abuse or personalize, respect privacy, do not spam, do not market your wares or qualifications.
_______________________________________________
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The Kenya ICT Action Network (KICTANet) is a multi-stakeholder platform for people and institutions interested and involved in ICT policy and regulation. The network aims to act as a catalyst for reform in the ICT sector in support of the national aim of ICT enabled growth and development.
KICTANetiquette : Adhere to the same standards of acceptable behaviors online that you follow in real life: respect people's times and bandwidth, share knowledge, don't flame or abuse or personalize, respect privacy, do not spam, do not market your wares or qualifications.
kictanet mailing list kictanet@lists.kictanet.or.ke https://lists.kictanet.or.ke/mailman/listinfo/kictanet Unsubscribe or change your options at https://lists.kictanet.or.ke/mailman/options/kictanet/jwalu%40yahoo.com The Kenya ICT Action Network (KICTANet) is a multi-stakeholder platform for people and institutions interested and involved in ICT policy and regulation. The network aims to act as a catalyst for reform in the ICT sector in support of the national aim of ICT enabled growth and development. KICTANetiquette : Adhere to the same standards of acceptable behaviors online that you follow in real life: respect people's times and bandwidth, share knowledge, don't flame or abuse or personalize, respect privacy, do not spam, do not market your wares or qualifications.
As for e-services, its already been decided that subscription services over satellite are taxable. See Stanbic Bank versus KRA. Stanbic was receiving financial information from Reuters, and the court found that they should have been paying withholding tax for these online services. http://kenyalaw.org/CaseSearch/view_preview1.php?link=4348160946812820297988... 2013/5/10 Walubengo J <jwalu@yahoo.com>
eCommerce sales tax is a complex and emerging issue even in developed economies. Quick challenge examples include:
1. How do you tax a digital good - given that KRA/Customs guys are used to "physically inspecting" before taxing. Say I pay for a music download from Safaricom/Google/Apple app_store, or buy a digital book from amazon.com, where and how does KRA come in? They dont even know the transaction took place :-)
2. In case of a physical good bought online, the KRA guys can and will catch it at the port of entry. Chances are that if you bought it on amazon.com, the Americans may have taxed the good at the port of "exit" and the Kenyans will want to tax it at the port of "entry". End result, the good becomes too expensive = discouraging online trading.
3. What of e-Services? Maybe I ran an online workshop/research/consultancy to some locals inhabiting some islands in the Bahamas and I got paid nicely. How does KRA know about this, and should they?Or I developed an online application for Nokia which is selling well online and am picking royalties, should I copy in KRA?
This are just some quick thoughts...but I agree with other listers, let the ecommerce industry pick up, then bring in the taxation later. However, we do need to thing around these issues in advance.
walu. ------------------------------------------------------- *From:* Ali Hussein <ali@hussein.me.ke> *To:* jwalu@yahoo.com *Cc:* kictanet <kictanet-bounces+ngethe.kariuki2007= yahoo.co.uk@lists.kictanet.or.ke>; KICTAnet ICT Policy Discussions < kictanet@lists.kictanet.or.ke> *Sent:* Friday, May 10, 2013 4:41 AM
*Subject:* Re: [kictanet] Is an online sales tax good for eCommerce? What are the regulatory environments for eCommerce in Africa?
Thanks guys. That's the crux of the matter really.
So victor, as a lawyer what's your take? When the law is silent? For example jumia.co.ke just opened for business in Kenya. Do they remit taxes including VAT to KRA? How are they structured? Are they a registered Kenyan Company? or are they domiciled in Mauritius for tax purposes?
ICT Researcher, usually innovation moves ahead of regulation (the case of Mpesa is a good example of that) but eventually regulation catches up. My opinion is that this should balance the computing interests of Government, free enterprise and consumer protection which in my opinion are not aligned most of the time.
As an African ICT Hub should we also be leading the way in finding/crafting the best regulator environment or should we let nature to take its course?
Ali Hussein CEO | 3mice interactive media Ltd Principal | Telemedia Africa Ltd
+254 713 601113
"The future belongs to him who knows how to wait." - Russian Proverb
Sent from my iPad
On May 10, 2013, at 3:50 AM, Victor Kapiyo <vkapiyo@gmail.com> wrote:
Well, we still have our good ol VAT Act which applies to goods and services - without distinction as to the means through which the transaction has occurred, which in a sense means we have online sales covered.
Then there is the question of loss of taxes especially for those transactions involving income "made in Kenya" by companies i.e. the eBays, Apples, Googles, based outside Kenya operating online and transacting "in Kenya" - do they pay VAT, or income tax (where applicable)?
Victor
Victor Kapiyo, LL.B
==================================================== *“Your attitude, not your aptitude, will determine your altitude” Zig Ziglar*
On 9 May 2013 20:46, <ngethe.kariuki2007@yahoo.co.uk> wrote:
Ali, In my humble opinion,the priority legislation required now is mainly on matters regarding the fact that goods are being bought without face-to-face contact between buyer and seller and issues may arise on quality of goods,not fit for purpose,return of goods,refund of payment etc.You will notice that these are largely consumer protection matters in relation to what some countries call "Distance Selling". Just some thoughts. Sent from my BlackBerry® ------------------------------ *From: * Ali Hussein <ali@hussein.me.ke> *Date: *Thu, 9 May 2013 22:24:14 +0530 *To: *ngethe.kariuki2007@yahoo.co.uk<ngethe.kariuki2007@yahoo.co.uk> *Cc: *kictanet<kictanet-bounces+ngethe.kariuki2007= yahoo.co.uk@lists.kictanet.or.ke>; KICTAnet ICT Policy Discussions< kictanet@lists.kictanet.or.ke> *Subject: *Re: [kictanet] Is an online sales tax good for eCommerce? What are the regulatory environments for eCommerce in Africa?
Ngethe
Good point. The legislation though is either non-existent or unclear. Or am I mistaken?
Ali Hussein CEO | 3mice interactive media Ltd Principal | Telemedia Africa Ltd
+254 713 601113
"The future belongs to him who knows how to wait." - Russian Proverb
Sent from my iPad
On May 9, 2013, at 9:11 PM, ngethe.kariuki2007@yahoo.co.uk wrote:
Ali,listers, If volume is small,which I think it is at the moment in our country,there is little merit in taxing at this early stage.It is better to let it flourish and introduce tax later when much revenue may be realised.
John Kariuki Sent from my BlackBerry®
-----Original Message----- From: Ali Hussein <ali@hussein.me.ke> Sender: "kictanet" <kictanet-bounces+ngethe.kariuki2007=yahoo.co.uk@lists.kictanet.or.ke> Date: Thu, 9 May 2013 04:43:58 To: <ngethe.kariuki2007@yahoo.co.uk> Cc: KICTAnet ICT Policy Discussions<kictanet@lists.kictanet.or.ke> Subject: [kictanet] Is an online sales tax good for eCommerce? What are the regulatory environments for eCommerce in Africa?
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KICTANetiquette : Adhere to the same standards of acceptable behaviors online that you follow in real life: respect people's times and bandwidth, share knowledge, don't flame or abuse or personalize, respect privacy, do not spam, do not market your wares or qualifications.
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KICTANetiquette : Adhere to the same standards of acceptable behaviors online that you follow in real life: respect people's times and bandwidth, share knowledge, don't flame or abuse or personalize, respect privacy, do not spam, do not market your wares or qualifications.
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KICTANetiquette : Adhere to the same standards of acceptable behaviors online that you follow in real life: respect people's times and bandwidth, share knowledge, don't flame or abuse or personalize, respect privacy, do not spam, do not market your wares or qualifications.
-- Grace L.N. Mutung'u (Bomu) Kenya Skype: gracebomu Twitter: @Bomu Website: http://www.diplointernetgovernance.org/profile/GraceMutungu
Grace Asante. This is very informative. Is there a case to protect Startups in Kenya where this is concerned? Any comments from the government side? Industry reps? Ali Hussein CEO | 3mice interactive media Ltd Principal | Telemedia Africa Ltd +254 713 601113 "The future belongs to him who knows how to wait." - Russian Proverb Sent from my iPad On May 10, 2013, at 2:23 PM, "Grace Mutung'u (Bomu)" <nmutungu@gmail.com> wrote:
As for e-services, its already been decided that subscription services over satellite are taxable. See Stanbic Bank versus KRA. Stanbic was receiving financial information from Reuters, and the court found that they should have been paying withholding tax for these online services. http://kenyalaw.org/CaseSearch/view_preview1.php?link=4348160946812820297988...
2013/5/10 Walubengo J <jwalu@yahoo.com>
eCommerce sales tax is a complex and emerging issue even in developed economies. Quick challenge examples include:
1. How do you tax a digital good - given that KRA/Customs guys are used to "physically inspecting" before taxing. Say I pay for a music download from Safaricom/Google/Apple app_store, or buy a digital book from amazon.com, where and how does KRA come in? They dont even know the transaction took place :-)
2. In case of a physical good bought online, the KRA guys can and will catch it at the port of entry. Chances are that if you bought it on amazon.com, the Americans may have taxed the good at the port of "exit" and the Kenyans will want to tax it at the port of "entry". End result, the good becomes too expensive = discouraging online trading.
3. What of e-Services? Maybe I ran an online workshop/research/consultancy to some locals inhabiting some islands in the Bahamas and I got paid nicely. How does KRA know about this, and should they?Or I developed an online application for Nokia which is selling well online and am picking royalties, should I copy in KRA?
This are just some quick thoughts...but I agree with other listers, let the ecommerce industry pick up, then bring in the taxation later. However, we do need to thing around these issues in advance.
walu. ------------------------------------------------------- From: Ali Hussein <ali@hussein.me.ke> To: jwalu@yahoo.com Cc: kictanet <kictanet-bounces+ngethe.kariuki2007=yahoo.co.uk@lists.kictanet.or.ke>; KICTAnet ICT Policy Discussions <kictanet@lists.kictanet.or.ke> Sent: Friday, May 10, 2013 4:41 AM
Subject: Re: [kictanet] Is an online sales tax good for eCommerce? What are the regulatory environments for eCommerce in Africa?
Thanks guys. That's the crux of the matter really.
So victor, as a lawyer what's your take? When the law is silent? For example jumia.co.ke just opened for business in Kenya. Do they remit taxes including VAT to KRA? How are they structured? Are they a registered Kenyan Company? or are they domiciled in Mauritius for tax purposes?
ICT Researcher, usually innovation moves ahead of regulation (the case of Mpesa is a good example of that) but eventually regulation catches up. My opinion is that this should balance the computing interests of Government, free enterprise and consumer protection which in my opinion are not aligned most of the time.
As an African ICT Hub should we also be leading the way in finding/crafting the best regulator environment or should we let nature to take its course?
Ali Hussein CEO | 3mice interactive media Ltd Principal | Telemedia Africa Ltd
+254 713 601113
"The future belongs to him who knows how to wait." - Russian Proverb
Sent from my iPad
On May 10, 2013, at 3:50 AM, Victor Kapiyo <vkapiyo@gmail.com> wrote:
Well, we still have our good ol VAT Act which applies to goods and services - without distinction as to the means through which the transaction has occurred, which in a sense means we have online sales covered.
Then there is the question of loss of taxes especially for those transactions involving income "made in Kenya" by companies i.e. the eBays, Apples, Googles, based outside Kenya operating online and transacting "in Kenya" - do they pay VAT, or income tax (where applicable)?
Victor
Victor Kapiyo, LL.B
==================================================== “Your attitude, not your aptitude, will determine your altitude” Zig Ziglar
On 9 May 2013 20:46, <ngethe.kariuki2007@yahoo.co.uk> wrote: Ali, In my humble opinion,the priority legislation required now is mainly on matters regarding the fact that goods are being bought without face-to-face contact between buyer and seller and issues may arise on quality of goods,not fit for purpose,return of goods,refund of payment etc.You will notice that these are largely consumer protection matters in relation to what some countries call "Distance Selling". Just some thoughts. Sent from my BlackBerry® From: Ali Hussein <ali@hussein.me.ke> Date: Thu, 9 May 2013 22:24:14 +0530 To: ngethe.kariuki2007@yahoo.co.uk<ngethe.kariuki2007@yahoo.co.uk> Cc: kictanet<kictanet-bounces+ngethe.kariuki2007=yahoo.co.uk@lists.kictanet.or.ke>; KICTAnet ICT Policy Discussions<kictanet@lists.kictanet.or.ke> Subject: Re: [kictanet] Is an online sales tax good for eCommerce? What are the regulatory environments for eCommerce in Africa?
Ngethe
Good point. The legislation though is either non-existent or unclear. Or am I mistaken?
Ali Hussein CEO | 3mice interactive media Ltd Principal | Telemedia Africa Ltd
+254 713 601113
"The future belongs to him who knows how to wait." - Russian Proverb
Sent from my iPad
On May 9, 2013, at 9:11 PM, ngethe.kariuki2007@yahoo.co.uk wrote:
Ali,listers, If volume is small,which I think it is at the moment in our country,there is little merit in taxing at this early stage.It is better to let it flourish and introduce tax later when much revenue may be realised.
John Kariuki Sent from my BlackBerry®
-----Original Message----- From: Ali Hussein <ali@hussein.me.ke> Sender: "kictanet" <kictanet-bounces+ngethe.kariuki2007=yahoo.co.uk@lists.kictanet.or.ke> Date: Thu, 9 May 2013 04:43:58 To: <ngethe.kariuki2007@yahoo.co.uk> Cc: KICTAnet ICT Policy Discussions<kictanet@lists.kictanet.or.ke> Subject: [kictanet] Is an online sales tax good for eCommerce? What are the regulatory environments for eCommerce in Africa?
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-- Grace L.N. Mutung'u (Bomu) Kenya Skype: gracebomu Twitter: @Bomu Website: http://www.diplointernetgovernance.org/profile/GraceMutungu _______________________________________________ kictanet mailing list kictanet@lists.kictanet.or.ke https://lists.kictanet.or.ke/mailman/listinfo/kictanet
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I think Victor made that point: if you're a company registered in Kenya that sells these services, then you declare your income here - and need to deal with the respective tax implications. The internet is just a distribution platform. I haven't ordered anything from Amazon in a while, but I think (correct me if I'm wrong) that they adjust some taxes depending on where you have the goods delivered to? Since the different states in the US have different tax rates, that's quite fumbly even for domestic consumer. Books can be imported duty free, as far as I remember, so that would mean that the question doesn't arise for e-books, but tracking down the purchase of music online is difficult. On 10 May 2013 18:16, Ali Hussein <ali@hussein.me.ke> wrote:
Grace
Asante. This is very informative. Is there a case to protect Startups in Kenya where this is concerned?
Any comments from the government side? Industry reps?
Ali Hussein CEO | 3mice interactive media Ltd Principal | Telemedia Africa Ltd
+254 713 601113
"The future belongs to him who knows how to wait." - Russian Proverb
Sent from my iPad
On May 10, 2013, at 2:23 PM, "Grace Mutung'u (Bomu)" <nmutungu@gmail.com> wrote:
As for e-services, its already been decided that subscription services over satellite are taxable. See Stanbic Bank versus KRA. Stanbic was receiving financial information from Reuters, and the court found that they should have been paying withholding tax for these online services. http://kenyalaw.org/CaseSearch/view_preview1.php?link=4348160946812820297988...
2013/5/10 Walubengo J <jwalu@yahoo.com>
eCommerce sales tax is a complex and emerging issue even in developed economies. Quick challenge examples include:
1. How do you tax a digital good - given that KRA/Customs guys are used to "physically inspecting" before taxing. Say I pay for a music download from Safaricom/Google/Apple app_store, or buy a digital book from amazon.com, where and how does KRA come in? They dont even know the transaction took place :-)
2. In case of a physical good bought online, the KRA guys can and will catch it at the port of entry. Chances are that if you bought it on amazon.com, the Americans may have taxed the good at the port of "exit" and the Kenyans will want to tax it at the port of "entry". End result, the good becomes too expensive = discouraging online trading.
3. What of e-Services? Maybe I ran an online workshop/research/consultancy to some locals inhabiting some islands in the Bahamas and I got paid nicely. How does KRA know about this, and should they?Or I developed an online application for Nokia which is selling well online and am picking royalties, should I copy in KRA?
This are just some quick thoughts...but I agree with other listers, let the ecommerce industry pick up, then bring in the taxation later. However, we do need to thing around these issues in advance.
walu. ------------------------------------------------------- *From:* Ali Hussein <ali@hussein.me.ke> *To:* jwalu@yahoo.com *Cc:* kictanet <kictanet-bounces+ngethe.kariuki2007= yahoo.co.uk@lists.kictanet.or.ke>; KICTAnet ICT Policy Discussions < kictanet@lists.kictanet.or.ke> *Sent:* Friday, May 10, 2013 4:41 AM
*Subject:* Re: [kictanet] Is an online sales tax good for eCommerce? What are the regulatory environments for eCommerce in Africa?
Thanks guys. That's the crux of the matter really.
So victor, as a lawyer what's your take? When the law is silent? For example jumia.co.ke just opened for business in Kenya. Do they remit taxes including VAT to KRA? How are they structured? Are they a registered Kenyan Company? or are they domiciled in Mauritius for tax purposes?
ICT Researcher, usually innovation moves ahead of regulation (the case of Mpesa is a good example of that) but eventually regulation catches up. My opinion is that this should balance the computing interests of Government, free enterprise and consumer protection which in my opinion are not aligned most of the time.
As an African ICT Hub should we also be leading the way in finding/crafting the best regulator environment or should we let nature to take its course?
Ali Hussein CEO | 3mice interactive media Ltd Principal | Telemedia Africa Ltd
+254 713 601113
"The future belongs to him who knows how to wait." - Russian Proverb
Sent from my iPad
On May 10, 2013, at 3:50 AM, Victor Kapiyo <vkapiyo@gmail.com> wrote:
Well, we still have our good ol VAT Act which applies to goods and services - without distinction as to the means through which the transaction has occurred, which in a sense means we have online sales covered.
Then there is the question of loss of taxes especially for those transactions involving income "made in Kenya" by companies i.e. the eBays, Apples, Googles, based outside Kenya operating online and transacting "in Kenya" - do they pay VAT, or income tax (where applicable)?
Victor
Victor Kapiyo, LL.B
==================================================== *“Your attitude, not your aptitude, will determine your altitude” Zig Ziglar*
On 9 May 2013 20:46, <ngethe.kariuki2007@yahoo.co.uk> wrote:
Ali, In my humble opinion,the priority legislation required now is mainly on matters regarding the fact that goods are being bought without face-to-face contact between buyer and seller and issues may arise on quality of goods,not fit for purpose,return of goods,refund of payment etc.You will notice that these are largely consumer protection matters in relation to what some countries call "Distance Selling". Just some thoughts. Sent from my BlackBerry® ------------------------------ *From: * Ali Hussein <ali@hussein.me.ke> *Date: *Thu, 9 May 2013 22:24:14 +0530 *To: *ngethe.kariuki2007@yahoo.co.uk<ngethe.kariuki2007@yahoo.co.uk> *Cc: *kictanet<kictanet-bounces+ngethe.kariuki2007= yahoo.co.uk@lists.kictanet.or.ke>; KICTAnet ICT Policy Discussions< kictanet@lists.kictanet.or.ke> *Subject: *Re: [kictanet] Is an online sales tax good for eCommerce? What are the regulatory environments for eCommerce in Africa?
Ngethe
Good point. The legislation though is either non-existent or unclear. Or am I mistaken?
Ali Hussein CEO | 3mice interactive media Ltd Principal | Telemedia Africa Ltd
+254 713 601113
"The future belongs to him who knows how to wait." - Russian Proverb
Sent from my iPad
On May 9, 2013, at 9:11 PM, ngethe.kariuki2007@yahoo.co.uk wrote:
Ali,listers, If volume is small,which I think it is at the moment in our country,there is little merit in taxing at this early stage.It is better to let it flourish and introduce tax later when much revenue may be realised.
John Kariuki Sent from my BlackBerry®
-----Original Message----- From: Ali Hussein <ali@hussein.me.ke> Sender: "kictanet" <kictanet-bounces+ngethe.kariuki2007=yahoo.co.uk@lists.kictanet.or.ke> Date: Thu, 9 May 2013 04:43:58 To: <ngethe.kariuki2007@yahoo.co.uk> Cc: KICTAnet ICT Policy Discussions<kictanet@lists.kictanet.or.ke> Subject: [kictanet] Is an online sales tax good for eCommerce? What are the regulatory environments for eCommerce in Africa?
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KICTANetiquette : Adhere to the same standards of acceptable behaviors online that you follow in real life: respect people's times and bandwidth, share knowledge, don't flame or abuse or personalize, respect privacy, do not spam, do not market your wares or qualifications.
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KICTANetiquette : Adhere to the same standards of acceptable behaviors online that you follow in real life: respect people's times and bandwidth, share knowledge, don't flame or abuse or personalize, respect privacy, do not spam, do not market your wares or qualifications.
-- Grace L.N. Mutung'u (Bomu) Kenya Skype: gracebomu Twitter: @Bomu Website: http://www.diplointernetgovernance.org/profile/GraceMutungu
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The Kenya ICT Action Network (KICTANet) is a multi-stakeholder platform for people and institutions interested and involved in ICT policy and regulation. The network aims to act as a catalyst for reform in the ICT sector in support of the national aim of ICT enabled growth and development.
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-- Andrea Bohnstedt <http://ke.linkedin.com/in/andreabohnstedt> Publisher www.ratio-magazine.com www.africa-assets.com
participants (6)
-
Ali Hussein -
Andrea Bohnstedt -
Grace Mutung'u (Bomu) -
ngethe.kariuki2007＠yahoo.co.uk -
Victor Kapiyo -
Walubengo J