r Listers, Please see below, from Nation Media website: link is: http://www.nation.co.ke/News/PC%20says%20Govt%20shut%20down%20video%20dens/-... The government has claimed responsibility for a crackdown on video dens in North Eastern Province. RELATED STORIES - Now Supkem ‘bans’ DStv in North Eastern<http://www.nation.co.ke/News/regional/Now%20Supkem%20bans%20DStv%20in%20North%20Eastern%20/-/1070/907312/-/qg8y6lz/-/index.html> The North Eastern Provincial Commissioner James ole Seriani also reassured Multichoice Kenya, the operator of the DSTv channels and the locals that neither the government nor the clerics would interfere with the satellite broadcaster. “I want to clarify a report appearing in both the local print and broadcast media that alleged that Sheikhs closed DSTv and video dens in Mandera. The truth is that the Mandera district security committee met in September last year and resolved to close all video dens,” the administrator said in a message sent out to the media. According to Mr Seriani, the district security committee was targeting halls that show immoral videos, those that hide criminals and aliens, those that admit school children when they are supposed to be in school and those that operate without license or sell drugs. “Let me emphasise that it is not the Sheikhs who banned the shows but the district security committee and DSTv has not been banned.” The PC said the security team has no reason to interfere with DSTv because it only shows football, which he acknowledged was a popular sport in North Eastern. He was, however, categorical that the provincial administration would carry on with the crackdown until the illegal dens are wiped out. “We have the support of all the leaders which gives us the impetus to carry on with the clean-up,” he said. I think we all agree that this time, the media was irresponsible in the way it reported this incident. Journalism calls for responsibility, especially at a time when this country is trying to put in a new constitutional order and to heal some of the wounds of the past. Any person who loves children and believes in order and morality would laud the move to shut down video dens that allow children to be exposed to vices such as pornography, drugs and sexual abuse, whether Christian, Muslim, Hindu, Agnostic or Atheist. Good governance is also about building a society in which all persons are protected and particularly children, who are the most vulnerable of the lot. On Wed, Apr 28, 2010 at 7:38 AM, Wainaina Mungai <wainaina@madeinkenya.org>wrote:

Fatma et al.

SOURCES: KTN news and other press reports. See BBC reports online. I verified the TV reports and watched as SUPKEM official lauded the move, stating how they should spread it to other towns. Video play-back available.

DSTV & VIDEO DENS: See press reports for my source & related details.

VIDEO DENS & JURISDICTION: Even where it is 'well-intended', a religious leader has no jurisdiction over businesses or legal issues such as the Muslim leaders purported to 'out-law'. So, it is not their place to do so. That's the point being drummed into Kenyans. You may lobby the government but you cannot outlaw anything with the imagined mandate to do so.

SUPKEM: A SUPKEM official was on TV stating how they should spread the same to other towns. Wrong approach again: no jurisdiction. That's a point that needs to get across otherwise, if Christians and Hindus enforced their ''laws'', life would be very uncomfortable for non-Christians or non-Hindus.

SECULAR STATE: The fact that the PM and President profess any sort of religion does not make KENYA a religious state. We need to be on the same page on that one. Those are (personal convictions). We do not pay them to perform (religious duties) towards persons who religiously agree with them. We pay them to deliver on totally non-religious functions of government/State for all people or every religion - including aethists. The Khadhi courts are financed for a 'religious function' that via the constitution is navigated into the realm of state functions through the judiciary. The Kadhi Courts, if retained in a Constitution, should be financed by those it is meant to serve. Special funding using my taxes needs to go towards persons with disabilities - not religious functions.

SHARIAH & KADHI COURTS: I have to admit I do not know the connections. What I was refering to is "Islamic teachings" that were quoted as the basis of the actions of the said Sheikh and the what the SUPKEM official stated would be spread to other towns. I may have dragged the wrong terminology along but well am sure the point is clear. Your religious convictions do not give you jurisdiction over anyone. We have adequate mechanisms (enforced or otherwise) to address matters in a non-religious manner. The Mombasa Mayor & councillors keep making that very same mistake of mixing religion with their statutory role. That is dangerous in a polarised situation as we what we have.

SHARIA & THE POOR: I admire the way (real) followers of Islamic teachings take care of others through alms and their dedication to virtue. I also admire how true Christians do the same and give up wealth for others in what some would call socialism. I admire how true Hindus build hospitals and give free healthcare. However, none of these should issue decrees or apply religious teachings on people who do not 'profess' that religion. We would have to agree on a State religion if we start that debate. Governance in a secular state (which is what we have in Kenya) does not require application of religion. If Kenya was to become a religious state....well, we all know it would be a Christian state...making things rather unbearable for people who profess other religions.

DSTV/Multichoice made a business decision not to ''jump onto the bandwagon'' (which included the Minister Poghisio) of condemning the actions in Mandera. I would guess (& i may be wrong ;-) ) it was not because they had a different conviction from that of the 'bandwagon'. They needed a PR decision which does not apply in my case. I need rights and freedoms enforced equally for all not because the Bible, Koran or Torah says so....but bacuse it is the law of the land.

DRUGS, HOMOSEXUALITY ETC: There is this growing trend at the Coast where 'Islamic teachings' are being used by councillors, the Mayor and Ministers from the region as their basis for fighting drug-trafficking and homosexuality. Refer to statements by Mombasa Mayor and Minister Balala in recent days (The Star). The basis for their recommedations (though well-intended) shows the extent of the misconceptions about the jurisdiction of religion in a secular state. The basis for fightlng crime, drug abuse or whatever else they perceive to be criminal is the KENYAN LAW - derived from Constitution, legislation, regulation, council by-laws etc.

Overall, my point is this: Religious leaders have a right to express concerns but have no jurisdiction in enforcing matters of State. Kadhi courts are to me, the product of such distorted views about the place of religion in a secular state. In the draft constitution, we continue to propagate a situation that favours one religion over others. The impact will become clear in a couple of years.

I have no quarrel with Islam, neither do I need to know the details of what is and what is not Islam or Hindu, Buddhist or Christian. All I need is the principles of good governance that apply to ALL persons in a secular state. In cases such as Mandera and Mombasa, we must have safeguards against people who may be mistaken in believing they have jurisdiction over others simply because they profess a faith that tells them as much.

I hope we are now on the same page.

Wainaina

On 4/28/10, Fatma Bashir <fatma.bashir@gmail.com> wrote:

...

Dear Listers,

I read the article in the papers and tried to link the shariah law to what I was reading in vain....however tho late in response I felt it would be appropriate to share some personla views...

response to the first post sent ( by Wainaina)

I am not sure where the information came from that the closing down of video dens has anything to do with enforcement of shari’ah law. It is a matter of fact that video dens, which are scattered all over the less affluent regions of the country, and mainly in slums, are responsible for very many ills in those areas. Talk to anyone living in a slum in Nairobi and they will testify to the fact that not only are children missing school to watch unsuitable movies, they are picking up extremely bad habits from these video dens and are being exposed to sexual abuse by sexual predators who not only give them the entrance fee to watch some movies but prey on them while they are in those very dens. It is about time somebody stood up to this. Secondly, you must be more responsible when making a statement such as ‘outlaw DSTV video dens and related activities’. The only thing that was outlawed was the video dens and it was done with the full support of the local authorities. If you live in Mandera and decide to install DSTV in your own house, then so be it but please, allow them to take responsibility for what their children are being fed by way of ‘entertainment’

Anyone may watch supersport matches where they please and drink smoke etc but children must be protected. Try talking to someone whose child is exposed to this and lets hear what they have to say.

This is not about kadhi’s courts, this is about protecting children in Kenya and clearly the authorities there felt that it was an important move to make, This is not about shariah or the current/new constitution or any of that..... but about right thinking adults seeking to protect children. It just so happens to be a step taken by a people in an area vastly populated by Muslims... I laud DSTV for not jumping on the bandwagon and making rash comments and connections but monitoring ( read gather correct information) the situation before putting egg on their faces...kudos Isaboke and Ondimu.

Kenya is not a secular state. If it was, Raila would not go to such lengths to get himself baptized, and neither would the President going to church on Sunday be attended to by ministers and PSs and televised to boot. Incidentally, I would like to know who fuels his car and pays for this bodyguards on Sunday when he attends church – yes, yours and my hard earned taxes.

Let us try and be be responsible over some of the connections we make I think that there is no doubt that the kadhis courts are about personal, family and inheritance law for the Muslims and in no way affects non muslims...so please vote yes...Jesus does say love your neighbour.....so do love us please.

I challenge wainaina et all to find out more about shariah law...especially its inception and framework of implementation before the law is applied....and rest assured that Kenya is no where ready for this......and not in our great grand childrens lifetimes either. Please get facts from a reputable book or institutions some of the drivel I have read....!!!! kionjoo..... Do you think that the KRA would be ready and willing to take care of the poor and underpriviledged in this country by making sure that all eat ( three meals a day) get educated ( at public costs fully) have roofs over each and every head? using the taxes of the rich and priveledged to make sure that the poor and underpreviledged lead a minimum acceptable basic existence thus eliminating any reason to for example steal.......that is the FIRST demand shariah law would make upon its government.....yep Kenya not ready for this at all!

Regards, Fatma

PS, as I am not a scholar on islamic studies the views above are personla but anchored on my limited understanding of fiqh islamic law..

On 4/27/10, Wainaina Mungai <wainaina@madeinkenya.org> wrote:

...

The recent move by Muslim Sheikhs to enforce Sharia Law, outlaw DSTV, video dens & related activities in Mandera could not have come at a more unfortunate time. The support they have received from SUPREM (Supreme Council of Kenya Muslims) further complicates the debate on the "continued" inclusion of Kadhi Courts in our Constitution.

Now that the SUPKEM has proved to support such apparent 'treason' in my secular nation, President Kibaki and Prime Minister Odinga must also commit to ensuring that religion and religious courts are omitted from the new constitution. That is the pact they must sign with the NO campaign if a YES vote is to sail through without question. No religion, especially fundamentalist Islam, should enjoy the privileges of my hard-earned taxes to propagate religious activities that may disintegrate into such treasonable actions as by the Sheikhs.

My vote would easily change to a resounding "NO" unless I am assured by the Constitution that no Sheikh or Buddist monk, Hindu priest or Christian cleric will get away with the absurd audacity of attempting to determine where I watch my Supersport matches, what I drink as I do so; where and what I can smoke or drink in an independent secular KENYA.

No religion should 'get it twisted' on its place in secular Kenya and no loopholes should allow Sheikhs or SUPKEM to get away with such treasonable actions.

Regards, Wainaina

-- Sent from my mobile device

Wainaina Mungai ----- http://www.bungesms.com http://www.madeinkenya.org http://www.wainainamungai.com

Thousands of candles can be lighted from a single candle, and the life of the candle will not be shortened. Happiness never decreases by being shared. ~ Buddha~

_______________________________________________ kictanet mailing list kictanet@lists.kictanet.or.ke http://lists.kictanet.or.ke/mailman/listinfo/kictanet

This message was sent to: fatma.bashir@gmail.com Unsubscribe or change your options at

http://lists.kictanet.or.ke/mailman/options/kictanet/fatma.bashir%40gmail.co...

...

-- Sent from my mobile device

Wainaina Mungai ----- http://www.bungesms.com http://www.madeinkenya.org http://www.wainainamungai.com

Thousands of candles can be lighted from a single candle, and the life of the candle will not be shortened. Happiness never decreases by being shared. ~ Buddha~

Thanks Fatma, Well put ;-) If this very rare "admission" by government officials is the truth, then clearly, the matter should rest. If however, it is a move to 'manage' the Yes and No votes, then we will be back here discussing freedom of information, ICTs, propaganda and such relevant topics. I remain hopeful that this was a genuine error by journalists from BBC and other media houses. Time will tell. Wainaina On 4/28/10, Harry Delano <harry@comtelsys.co.ke> wrote:

All,

This should settle this debate. A rep of the media house who earlier reported, should take responsibility for misleading info and duly apologise, if on this list..

Let not this forum degenerate into a debate pitting opposing religions. We have quite alot in the field that pertains ICT, do deal with.

Regards, Harry

_____

From: kictanet-bounces+harry=comtelsys.co.ke@lists.kictanet.or.ke [mailto:kictanet-bounces+harry=comtelsys.co.ke@lists.kictanet.or.ke] On Behalf Of Fatma Bashir Sent: Wednesday, April 28, 2010 8:07 AM To: harry@comtelsys.co.ke Cc: KICTAnet ICT Policy Discussions Subject: Re: [kictanet] Red Card for the Sheikhs

r Listers,

Please see below, from Nation Media website: link is: http://www.nation.co.ke/News/PC%20says%20Govt%20shut%20down%20video%20dens/- /1056/907416/-/111hh3i/-/index.html

The government has claimed responsibility for a crackdown on video dens in North Eastern Province.

RELATED STORIES

* Now Supkem <http://www.nation.co.ke/News/regional/Now%20Supkem%20bans%20DStv%20in%20Nor th%20Eastern%20/-/1070/907312/-/qg8y6lz/-/index.html> 'bans' DStv in North Eastern

The North Eastern Provincial Commissioner James ole Seriani also reassured Multichoice Kenya, the operator of the DSTv channels and the locals that neither the government nor the clerics would interfere with the satellite broadcaster.

"I want to clarify a report appearing in both the local print and broadcast media that alleged that Sheikhs closed DSTv and video dens in Mandera. The truth is that the Mandera district security committee met in September last year and resolved to close all video dens," the administrator said in a message sent out to the media.

According to Mr Seriani, the district security committee was targeting halls that show immoral videos, those that hide criminals and aliens, those that admit school children when they are supposed to be in school and those that operate without license or sell drugs.

"Let me emphasise that it is not the Sheikhs who banned the shows but the district security committee and DSTv has not been banned."

The PC said the security team has no reason to interfere with DSTv because it only shows football, which he acknowledged was a popular sport in North Eastern.

He was, however, categorical that the provincial administration would carry on with the crackdown until the illegal dens are wiped out.

"We have the support of all the leaders which gives us the impetus to carry on with the clean-up," he said.

I think we all agree that this time, the media was irresponsible in the way it reported this incident. Journalism calls for responsibility, especially at a time when this country is trying to put in a new constitutional order and to heal some of the wounds of the past. Any person who loves children and believes in order and morality would laud the move to shut down video dens that allow children to be exposed to vices such as pornography, drugs and sexual abuse, whether Christian, Muslim, Hindu, Agnostic or Atheist. Good governance is also about building a society in which all persons are protected and particularly children, who are the most vulnerable of the lot.

On Wed, Apr 28, 2010 at 7:38 AM, Wainaina Mungai <wainaina@madeinkenya.org> wrote:

Fatma et al.

SOURCES: KTN news and other press reports. See BBC reports online. I verified the TV reports and watched as SUPKEM official lauded the move, stating how they should spread it to other towns. Video play-back available.

DSTV & VIDEO DENS: See press reports for my source & related details.

VIDEO DENS & JURISDICTION: Even where it is 'well-intended', a religious leader has no jurisdiction over businesses or legal issues such as the Muslim leaders purported to 'out-law'. So, it is not their place to do so. That's the point being drummed into Kenyans. You may lobby the government but you cannot outlaw anything with the imagined mandate to do so.

SUPKEM: A SUPKEM official was on TV stating how they should spread the same to other towns. Wrong approach again: no jurisdiction. That's a point that needs to get across otherwise, if Christians and Hindus enforced their ''laws'', life would be very uncomfortable for non-Christians or non-Hindus.

SECULAR STATE: The fact that the PM and President profess any sort of religion does not make KENYA a religious state. We need to be on the same page on that one. Those are (personal convictions). We do not pay them to perform (religious duties) towards persons who religiously agree with them. We pay them to deliver on totally non-religious functions of government/State for all people or every religion - including aethists. The Khadhi courts are financed for a 'religious function' that via the constitution is navigated into the realm of state functions through the judiciary. The Kadhi Courts, if retained in a Constitution, should be financed by those it is meant to serve. Special funding using my taxes needs to go towards persons with disabilities - not religious functions.

SHARIAH & KADHI COURTS: I have to admit I do not know the connections. What I was refering to is "Islamic teachings" that were quoted as the basis of the actions of the said Sheikh and the what the SUPKEM official stated would be spread to other towns. I may have dragged the wrong terminology along but well am sure the point is clear. Your religious convictions do not give you jurisdiction over anyone. We have adequate mechanisms (enforced or otherwise) to address matters in a non-religious manner. The Mombasa Mayor & councillors keep making that very same mistake of mixing religion with their statutory role. That is dangerous in a polarised situation as we what we have.

SHARIA & THE POOR: I admire the way (real) followers of Islamic teachings take care of others through alms and their dedication to virtue. I also admire how true Christians do the same and give up wealth for others in what some would call socialism. I admire how true Hindus build hospitals and give free healthcare. However, none of these should issue decrees or apply religious teachings on people who do not 'profess' that religion. We would have to agree on a State religion if we start that debate. Governance in a secular state (which is what we have in Kenya) does not require application of religion. If Kenya was to become a religious state....well, we all know it would be a Christian state...making things rather unbearable for people who profess other religions.

DSTV/Multichoice made a business decision not to ''jump onto the bandwagon'' (which included the Minister Poghisio) of condemning the actions in Mandera. I would guess (& i may be wrong ;-) ) it was not because they had a different conviction from that of the 'bandwagon'. They needed a PR decision which does not apply in my case. I need rights and freedoms enforced equally for all not because the Bible, Koran or Torah says so....but bacuse it is the law of the land.

DRUGS, HOMOSEXUALITY ETC: There is this growing trend at the Coast where 'Islamic teachings' are being used by councillors, the Mayor and Ministers from the region as their basis for fighting drug-trafficking and homosexuality. Refer to statements by Mombasa Mayor and Minister Balala in recent days (The Star). The basis for their recommedations (though well-intended) shows the extent of the misconceptions about the jurisdiction of religion in a secular state. The basis for fightlng crime, drug abuse or whatever else they perceive to be criminal is the KENYAN LAW - derived from Constitution, legislation, regulation, council by-laws etc.

Overall, my point is this: Religious leaders have a right to express concerns but have no jurisdiction in enforcing matters of State. Kadhi courts are to me, the product of such distorted views about the place of religion in a secular state. In the draft constitution, we continue to propagate a situation that favours one religion over others. The impact will become clear in a couple of years.

I have no quarrel with Islam, neither do I need to know the details of what is and what is not Islam or Hindu, Buddhist or Christian. All I need is the principles of good governance that apply to ALL persons in a secular state. In cases such as Mandera and Mombasa, we must have safeguards against people who may be mistaken in believing they have jurisdiction over others simply because they profess a faith that tells them as much.

I hope we are now on the same page.

Wainaina

On 4/28/10, Fatma Bashir <fatma.bashir@gmail.com> wrote:

...

Dear Listers,

I read the article in the papers and tried to link the shariah law to what I was reading in vain....however tho late in response I felt it would be appropriate to share some personla views...

response to the first post sent ( by Wainaina)

I am not sure where the information came from that the closing down of video dens has anything to do with enforcement of shari'ah law. It is a matter of fact that video dens, which are scattered all over the less affluent regions of the country, and mainly in slums, are responsible for very many ills in those areas. Talk to anyone living in a slum in Nairobi and they will testify to the fact that not only are children missing school to watch unsuitable movies, they are picking up extremely bad habits from these video dens and are being exposed to sexual abuse by sexual predators who not only give them the entrance fee to watch some movies but prey on them while they are in those very dens. It is about time somebody stood up to this. Secondly, you must be more responsible when making a statement such as 'outlaw DSTV video dens and related activities'. The only thing that was outlawed was the video dens and it was done with the full support of the local authorities. If you live in Mandera and decide to install DSTV in your own house, then so be it but please, allow them to take responsibility for what their children are being fed by way of 'entertainment'

Anyone may watch supersport matches where they please and drink smoke etc but children must be protected. Try talking to someone whose child is exposed to this and lets hear what they have to say.

This is not about kadhi's courts, this is about protecting children in Kenya and clearly the authorities there felt that it was an important move to make, This is not about shariah or the current/new constitution or any of that..... but about right thinking adults seeking to protect children. It just so happens to be a step taken by a people in an area vastly populated by Muslims... I laud DSTV for not jumping on the bandwagon and making rash comments and connections but monitoring ( read gather correct information) the situation before putting egg on their faces...kudos Isaboke and Ondimu.

Kenya is not a secular state. If it was, Raila would not go to such lengths to get himself baptized, and neither would the President going to church on Sunday be attended to by ministers and PSs and televised to boot. Incidentally, I would like to know who fuels his car and pays for this bodyguards on Sunday when he attends church - yes, yours and my hard earned taxes.

Let us try and be be responsible over some of the connections we make I think that there is no doubt that the kadhis courts are about personal, family and inheritance law for the Muslims and in no way affects non muslims...so please vote yes...Jesus does say love your neighbour.....so do love us please.

I challenge wainaina et all to find out more about shariah law...especially its inception and framework of implementation before the law is applied....and rest assured that Kenya is no where ready for this......and not in our great grand childrens lifetimes either. Please get facts from a reputable book or institutions some of the drivel I have read....!!!! kionjoo..... Do you think that the KRA would be ready and willing to take care of the poor and underpriviledged in this country by making sure that all eat ( three meals a day) get educated ( at public costs fully) have roofs over each and every head? using the taxes of the rich and priveledged to make sure that the poor and underpreviledged lead a minimum acceptable basic existence thus eliminating any reason to for example steal.......that is the FIRST demand shariah law would make upon its government.....yep Kenya not ready for this at all!

Regards, Fatma

PS, as I am not a scholar on islamic studies the views above are personla but anchored on my limited understanding of fiqh islamic law..

On 4/27/10, Wainaina Mungai <wainaina@madeinkenya.org> wrote:

...

The recent move by Muslim Sheikhs to enforce Sharia Law, outlaw DSTV, video dens & related activities in Mandera could not have come at a more unfortunate time. The support they have received from SUPREM (Supreme Council of Kenya Muslims) further complicates the debate on the "continued" inclusion of Kadhi Courts in our Constitution.

Now that the SUPKEM has proved to support such apparent 'treason' in my secular nation, President Kibaki and Prime Minister Odinga must also commit to ensuring that religion and religious courts are omitted from the new constitution. That is the pact they must sign with the NO campaign if a YES vote is to sail through without question. No religion, especially fundamentalist Islam, should enjoy the privileges of my hard-earned taxes to propagate religious activities that may disintegrate into such treasonable actions as by the Sheikhs.

My vote would easily change to a resounding "NO" unless I am assured by the Constitution that no Sheikh or Buddist monk, Hindu priest or Christian cleric will get away with the absurd audacity of attempting to determine where I watch my Supersport matches, what I drink as I do so; where and what I can smoke or drink in an independent secular KENYA.

No religion should 'get it twisted' on its place in secular Kenya and no loopholes should allow Sheikhs or SUPKEM to get away with such treasonable actions.

Regards, Wainaina

-- Sent from my mobile device

Wainaina Mungai ----- http://www.bungesms.com http://www.madeinkenya.org http://www.wainainamungai.com

Thousands of candles can be lighted from a single candle, and the life of the candle will not be shortened. Happiness never decreases by being shared. ~ Buddha~

_______________________________________________ kictanet mailing list kictanet@lists.kictanet.or.ke http://lists.kictanet.or.ke/mailman/listinfo/kictanet

This message was sent to: fatma.bashir@gmail.com Unsubscribe or change your options at

http://lists.kictanet.or.ke/mailman/options/kictanet/fatma.bashir%40gmail.co m

...

--

Sent from my mobile device

Wainaina Mungai ----- http://www.bungesms.com http://www.madeinkenya.org http://www.wainainamungai.com

Thousands of candles can be lighted from a single candle, and the life of the candle will not be shortened. Happiness never decreases by being shared. ~ Buddha~

-- Wainaina Mungai ----- http://www.bungesms.com http://www.madeinkenya.org http://www.wainainamungai.com Thousands of candles can be lighted from a single candle, and the life of the candle will not be shortened. Happiness never decreases by being shared. ~ Buddha~

Thanks Wainaina, For highlighting it and allowing us all to have a healthy discussion, these are issues that form our outlooks towards each other and if not cleared do lead to less healthy approaches to dealing with our differences..... but I couldnt agree more with Harry, lets let it rest... Cheers Fatma On 4/28/10, Wainaina Mungai <wainaina@madeinkenya.org> wrote:

Thanks Fatma,

Well put ;-)

If this very rare "admission" by government officials is the truth, then clearly, the matter should rest.

If however, it is a move to 'manage' the Yes and No votes, then we will be back here discussing freedom of information, ICTs, propaganda and such relevant topics.

I remain hopeful that this was a genuine error by journalists from BBC and other media houses.

Time will tell.

Wainaina

On 4/28/10, Harry Delano <harry@comtelsys.co.ke> wrote:

...

All,

This should settle this debate. A rep of the media house who earlier reported, should take responsibility for misleading info and duly apologise, if on this list..

Let not this forum degenerate into a debate pitting opposing religions. We have quite alot in the field that pertains ICT, do deal with.

Regards, Harry

_____

From: kictanet-bounces+harry=comtelsys.co.ke@lists.kictanet.or.ke [mailto:kictanet-bounces+harry=comtelsys.co.ke@lists.kictanet.or.ke] On Behalf Of Fatma Bashir Sent: Wednesday, April 28, 2010 8:07 AM To: harry@comtelsys.co.ke Cc: KICTAnet ICT Policy Discussions Subject: Re: [kictanet] Red Card for the Sheikhs

r Listers,

Please see below, from Nation Media website: link is: http://www.nation.co.ke/News/PC%20says%20Govt%20shut%20down%20video%20dens/- /1056/907416/-/111hh3i/-/index.html

The government has claimed responsibility for a crackdown on video dens in North Eastern Province.

RELATED STORIES

* Now Supkem <http://www.nation.co.ke/News/regional/Now%20Supkem%20bans%20DStv%20in%20Nor th%20Eastern%20/-/1070/907312/-/qg8y6lz/-/index.html> 'bans' DStv in North Eastern

The North Eastern Provincial Commissioner James ole Seriani also reassured Multichoice Kenya, the operator of the DSTv channels and the locals that neither the government nor the clerics would interfere with the satellite broadcaster.

"I want to clarify a report appearing in both the local print and broadcast media that alleged that Sheikhs closed DSTv and video dens in Mandera. The truth is that the Mandera district security committee met in September last year and resolved to close all video dens," the administrator said in a message sent out to the media.

According to Mr Seriani, the district security committee was targeting halls that show immoral videos, those that hide criminals and aliens, those that admit school children when they are supposed to be in school and those that operate without license or sell drugs.

"Let me emphasise that it is not the Sheikhs who banned the shows but the district security committee and DSTv has not been banned."

The PC said the security team has no reason to interfere with DSTv because it only shows football, which he acknowledged was a popular sport in North Eastern.

He was, however, categorical that the provincial administration would carry on with the crackdown until the illegal dens are wiped out.

"We have the support of all the leaders which gives us the impetus to carry on with the clean-up," he said.

I think we all agree that this time, the media was irresponsible in the way it reported this incident. Journalism calls for responsibility, especially at a time when this country is trying to put in a new constitutional order and to heal some of the wounds of the past. Any person who loves children and believes in order and morality would laud the move to shut down video dens that allow children to be exposed to vices such as pornography, drugs and sexual abuse, whether Christian, Muslim, Hindu, Agnostic or Atheist. Good governance is also about building a society in which all persons are protected and particularly children, who are the most vulnerable of the lot.

On Wed, Apr 28, 2010 at 7:38 AM, Wainaina Mungai <wainaina@madeinkenya.org> wrote:

Fatma et al.

SOURCES: KTN news and other press reports. See BBC reports online. I verified the TV reports and watched as SUPKEM official lauded the move, stating how they should spread it to other towns. Video play-back available.

DSTV & VIDEO DENS: See press reports for my source & related details.

VIDEO DENS & JURISDICTION: Even where it is 'well-intended', a religious leader has no jurisdiction over businesses or legal issues such as the Muslim leaders purported to 'out-law'. So, it is not their place to do so. That's the point being drummed into Kenyans. You may lobby the government but you cannot outlaw anything with the imagined mandate to do so.

SUPKEM: A SUPKEM official was on TV stating how they should spread the same to other towns. Wrong approach again: no jurisdiction. That's a point that needs to get across otherwise, if Christians and Hindus enforced their ''laws'', life would be very uncomfortable for non-Christians or non-Hindus.

SECULAR STATE: The fact that the PM and President profess any sort of religion does not make KENYA a religious state. We need to be on the same page on that one. Those are (personal convictions). We do not pay them to perform (religious duties) towards persons who religiously agree with them. We pay them to deliver on totally non-religious functions of government/State for all people or every religion - including aethists. The Khadhi courts are financed for a 'religious function' that via the constitution is navigated into the realm of state functions through the judiciary. The Kadhi Courts, if retained in a Constitution, should be financed by those it is meant to serve. Special funding using my taxes needs to go towards persons with disabilities - not religious functions.

SHARIAH & KADHI COURTS: I have to admit I do not know the connections. What I was refering to is "Islamic teachings" that were quoted as the basis of the actions of the said Sheikh and the what the SUPKEM official stated would be spread to other towns. I may have dragged the wrong terminology along but well am sure the point is clear. Your religious convictions do not give you jurisdiction over anyone. We have adequate mechanisms (enforced or otherwise) to address matters in a non-religious manner. The Mombasa Mayor & councillors keep making that very same mistake of mixing religion with their statutory role. That is dangerous in a polarised situation as we what we have.

SHARIA & THE POOR: I admire the way (real) followers of Islamic teachings take care of others through alms and their dedication to virtue. I also admire how true Christians do the same and give up wealth for others in what some would call socialism. I admire how true Hindus build hospitals and give free healthcare. However, none of these should issue decrees or apply religious teachings on people who do not 'profess' that religion. We would have to agree on a State religion if we start that debate. Governance in a secular state (which is what we have in Kenya) does not require application of religion. If Kenya was to become a religious state....well, we all know it would be a Christian state...making things rather unbearable for people who profess other religions.

DSTV/Multichoice made a business decision not to ''jump onto the bandwagon'' (which included the Minister Poghisio) of condemning the actions in Mandera. I would guess (& i may be wrong ;-) ) it was not because they had a different conviction from that of the 'bandwagon'. They needed a PR decision which does not apply in my case. I need rights and freedoms enforced equally for all not because the Bible, Koran or Torah says so....but bacuse it is the law of the land.

DRUGS, HOMOSEXUALITY ETC: There is this growing trend at the Coast where 'Islamic teachings' are being used by councillors, the Mayor and Ministers from the region as their basis for fighting drug-trafficking and homosexuality. Refer to statements by Mombasa Mayor and Minister Balala in recent days (The Star). The basis for their recommedations (though well-intended) shows the extent of the misconceptions about the jurisdiction of religion in a secular state. The basis for fightlng crime, drug abuse or whatever else they perceive to be criminal is the KENYAN LAW - derived from Constitution, legislation, regulation, council by-laws etc.

Overall, my point is this: Religious leaders have a right to express concerns but have no jurisdiction in enforcing matters of State. Kadhi courts are to me, the product of such distorted views about the place of religion in a secular state. In the draft constitution, we continue to propagate a situation that favours one religion over others. The impact will become clear in a couple of years.

I have no quarrel with Islam, neither do I need to know the details of what is and what is not Islam or Hindu, Buddhist or Christian. All I need is the principles of good governance that apply to ALL persons in a secular state. In cases such as Mandera and Mombasa, we must have safeguards against people who may be mistaken in believing they have jurisdiction over others simply because they profess a faith that tells them as much.

I hope we are now on the same page.

Wainaina

On 4/28/10, Fatma Bashir <fatma.bashir@gmail.com> wrote:

...

Dear Listers,

I read the article in the papers and tried to link the shariah law to what I was reading in vain....however tho late in response I felt it would be appropriate to share some personla views...

response to the first post sent ( by Wainaina)

I am not sure where the information came from that the closing down of video dens has anything to do with enforcement of shari'ah law. It is a matter of fact that video dens, which are scattered all over the less affluent regions of the country, and mainly in slums, are responsible for very many ills in those areas. Talk to anyone living in a slum in Nairobi and they will testify to the fact that not only are children missing school to watch unsuitable movies, they are picking up extremely bad habits from these video dens and are being exposed to sexual abuse by sexual predators who not only give them the entrance fee to watch some movies but prey on them while they are in those very dens. It is about time somebody stood up to this. Secondly, you must be more responsible when making a statement such as 'outlaw DSTV video dens and related activities'. The only thing that was outlawed was the video dens and it was done with the full support of the local authorities. If you live in Mandera and decide to install DSTV in your own house, then so be it but please, allow them to take responsibility for what their children are being fed by way of 'entertainment'

Anyone may watch supersport matches where they please and drink smoke etc but children must be protected. Try talking to someone whose child is exposed to this and lets hear what they have to say.

This is not about kadhi's courts, this is about protecting children in Kenya and clearly the authorities there felt that it was an important move to make, This is not about shariah or the current/new constitution or any of that..... but about right thinking adults seeking to protect children. It just so happens to be a step taken by a people in an area vastly populated by Muslims... I laud DSTV for not jumping on the bandwagon and making rash comments and connections but monitoring ( read gather correct information) the situation before putting egg on their faces...kudos Isaboke and Ondimu.

Kenya is not a secular state. If it was, Raila would not go to such lengths to get himself baptized, and neither would the President going to church on Sunday be attended to by ministers and PSs and televised to boot. Incidentally, I would like to know who fuels his car and pays for this bodyguards on Sunday when he attends church - yes, yours and my hard earned taxes.

Let us try and be be responsible over some of the connections we make I think that there is no doubt that the kadhis courts are about personal, family and inheritance law for the Muslims and in no way affects non muslims...so please vote yes...Jesus does say love your neighbour.....so do love us please.

I challenge wainaina et all to find out more about shariah law...especially its inception and framework of implementation before the law is applied....and rest assured that Kenya is no where ready for this......and not in our great grand childrens lifetimes either. Please get facts from a reputable book or institutions some of the drivel I have read....!!!! kionjoo..... Do you think that the KRA would be ready and willing to take care of the poor and underpriviledged in this country by making sure that all eat ( three meals a day) get educated ( at public costs fully) have roofs over each and every head? using the taxes of the rich and priveledged to make sure that the poor and underpreviledged lead a minimum acceptable basic existence thus eliminating any reason to for example steal.......that is the FIRST demand shariah law would make upon its government.....yep Kenya not ready for this at all!

Regards, Fatma

PS, as I am not a scholar on islamic studies the views above are personla but anchored on my limited understanding of fiqh islamic law..

On 4/27/10, Wainaina Mungai <wainaina@madeinkenya.org> wrote:

...

The recent move by Muslim Sheikhs to enforce Sharia Law, outlaw DSTV, video dens & related activities in Mandera could not have come at a more unfortunate time. The support they have received from SUPREM (Supreme Council of Kenya Muslims) further complicates the debate on the "continued" inclusion of Kadhi Courts in our Constitution.

Now that the SUPKEM has proved to support such apparent 'treason' in my secular nation, President Kibaki and Prime Minister Odinga must also commit to ensuring that religion and religious courts are omitted from the new constitution. That is the pact they must sign with the NO campaign if a YES vote is to sail through without question. No religion, especially fundamentalist Islam, should enjoy the privileges of my hard-earned taxes to propagate religious activities that may disintegrate into such treasonable actions as by the Sheikhs.

My vote would easily change to a resounding "NO" unless I am assured by the Constitution that no Sheikh or Buddist monk, Hindu priest or Christian cleric will get away with the absurd audacity of attempting to determine where I watch my Supersport matches, what I drink as I do so; where and what I can smoke or drink in an independent secular KENYA.

No religion should 'get it twisted' on its place in secular Kenya and no loopholes should allow Sheikhs or SUPKEM to get away with such treasonable actions.

Regards, Wainaina

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Hi Muthoni, The ''interruption'' was rather welcome ;-) ... It seems I am not the only one with a support complaint against an ISP. I know once of the ISP staff personally and they admitted the following: 1. The support staff agree on a 'political response' to faults when the ISP cannot admit they have a crisis. This happened recently when the home connections service (via Wimax) was down for several days. I am flattered that I was on a list of people to be told the truth but wonder why so many clients need to be given a flat lie as a deliberate response. 2. Their support staff at (name withheld) keep phones off the hook when they have many complaints. 3. The lady incharge of field support claimed there was a support person on the way to assist me but kept me waiting for hours as ''punishment'' for having called support the previous day yet they came and did not find me. I left after waiting for hours. 4. The field support reports do not reflect the truth about the client's support experience. The time taken to respond etc is always under-reported and the fault details are usually distorted. All the above were verified by a member of staff at that ISP. 5. The second ISP support staff hang-up after they realised the fault on my firewall was caused by one of them. No, i did not shout at anyone. He simply vanished because he had not solution and it was around 5:00pm. I have had to escalate previous cases to their CEO for a response. All said, ISP support (with or without a well-worded SLA) in Kenya is a case study on how not to offer technical support ;-) Does CCK regulate such standards of service? There should be an acceptable minimum that doesn't force me to keep moving from ISP to another. Wainaina On 4/28/10, Ms. Muthoni Masinde <muthoni@uonbi.ac.ke> wrote:

Dear Listers, Am sorry to interrupt this interesting debate on Sharia law....

From my experience, there seem to be something fundamentally wrong with the customer (especially technical) support by Access Kenya. I once attempted to host a Microsoft-based application (SQL Server, ASP and IIS) with them; I received pathetic service. I did not have a major problem with this though; may be MS was my undoing.

However, I have a big problem with Access Kenya’s security restrictions that forces one to administer his/her website only from a particular IP address. If you travel out of the country (or even out of your office for that matter) and you need to replace/edit particular content on your site; you will be in for big trouble! You will need to supply Access Kenya’s technical team with static IP address! I highly appreciate that this makes my website more secure but in the world where IP addresses are dynamic, you can as well forget about updating your website.

I recently traveled to Cape Town; while there, I urgently needed to update a home page of one of the sites I have hosted with Access Kenya. Your guess is right; I could not and the client (the owner of the website) felt like ‘killing’ me. Writing emails to the technical team yielded no response and I had to wait to be back in Kenya to update the site; hence my conclusion that the slogan for Access Kenya is ‘Access Kenya ONLY from Kenya/office’.

I apologize to Access Kenya for bringing this up to the ‘public’; I have tried to get help from within the organization’s customer care department for over a year in vain. My take is that more frustrated clients (like me), will opt to host websites out there (in US, UK etc) hence denying our ISP business.

Thank you, Muthoni Masinde, Lecturer, School of Computing and Informatics, UoN

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Liko, I agree with you; MS was not the issue but apparently many service providers find it a challenge to handle MS solutions. The Ms. SQL Server for example is a hard nut for them to crack. Moving to another ISP? Eventually the client will have to move; the unfortunate thing is that the client just moved to Access Kenya after getting frustrated by yet another Kenyan ISP. Thank you for your two cents. Muthoni

Muthoni.

It Cannot be MS ... there are pretty humongous systems that ran on their technologies.

Just like the convo we had a few weeks ago with Robert Yawe and Orange, I say change the provider... and in this case unless you are hosting on a dedicated server with good bandwidth, its hard to make the case to host locally {economies of scale}

For most sites/applications I would look into hosting in UK or US

About the IP restriction, I have come accross that with quite a few hosts even in US/UK .. especially the high end hosts, but they give a web console where you can add an IP temporarily

My two cents

On Wed, Apr 28, 2010 at 11:24 AM, Wainaina Mungai <wainaina@madeinkenya.org> wrote:

...

Hi Muthoni,

The ''interruption'' was rather welcome ;-) ...

It seems I am not the only one with a support complaint against an ISP.

I know once of the ISP staff personally and they admitted the following:

1. The support staff agree on a 'political response' to faults when the ISP cannot admit they have a crisis. This happened recently when the home connections service (via Wimax) was down for several days. I am flattered that I was on a list of people to be told the truth but wonder why so many clients need to be given a flat lie as a deliberate response.

2. Their support staff at (name withheld) keep phones off the hook when they have many complaints.

3. The lady incharge of field support claimed there was a support person on the way to assist me but kept me waiting for hours as ''punishment'' for having called support the previous day yet they came and did not find me. I left after waiting for hours.

4. The field support reports do not reflect the truth about the client's support experience. The time taken to respond etc is always under-reported and the fault details are usually distorted.

All the above were verified by a member of staff at that ISP.

5. The second ISP support staff hang-up after they realised the fault on my firewall was caused by one of them. No, i did not shout at anyone. He simply vanished because he had not solution and it was around 5:00pm. I have had to escalate previous cases to their CEO for a response.

All said, ISP support (with or without a well-worded SLA) in Kenya is a case study on how not to offer technical support ;-)

Does CCK regulate such standards of service? There should be an acceptable minimum that doesn't force me to keep moving from ISP to another.

Wainaina

On 4/28/10, Ms. Muthoni Masinde <muthoni@uonbi.ac.ke> wrote:

...

Dear Listers, Am sorry to interrupt this interesting debate on Sharia law....

From my experience, there seem to be something fundamentally wrong with the customer (especially technical) support by Access Kenya. I once attempted to host a Microsoft-based application (SQL Server, ASP and IIS) with them; I received pathetic service.  I did not have a major problem with this though; may be MS was my undoing.

However, I have a big problem with Access Kenya’s security restrictions that forces one to administer his/her website only from a particular IP address.  If you travel out of the country (or even out of your office for that matter) and you need to replace/edit  particular content on your site; you will be in for big trouble!  You will need to supply Access Kenya’s technical team with static IP address! I highly appreciate that this makes my website more secure but in the world where IP addresses are dynamic, you can as well forget about updating your website.

I recently traveled to Cape Town; while there, I urgently needed to update a home page of one of the sites I have hosted with Access Kenya.  Your guess is right; I could not and the client (the owner of the website) felt like ‘killing’ me.    Writing emails to the technical team yielded no response and I had to wait to be back in Kenya to update the site; hence my conclusion that the slogan for Access Kenya is ‘Access Kenya ONLY from Kenya/office’.

I apologize to Access Kenya for bringing this up to the ‘public’; I have tried to get help from within the organization’s customer care department for over a year in vain.  My take is that more frustrated clients (like me), will opt to host websites out there (in US, UK etc) hence denying our ISP business.

Thank you, Muthoni Masinde, Lecturer, School of Computing and Informatics, UoN

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Hello Wainaina, Thank you for the solidarity; it is unfortunate that we continue to receive 'below standard' services. Hopefully CCK will act some day. Muthoni

Hi Muthoni,

The ''interruption'' was rather welcome ;-) ...

It seems I am not the only one with a support complaint against an ISP.

I know once of the ISP staff personally and they admitted the following:

1. The support staff agree on a 'political response' to faults when the ISP cannot admit they have a crisis. This happened recently when the home connections service (via Wimax) was down for several days. I am flattered that I was on a list of people to be told the truth but wonder why so many clients need to be given a flat lie as a deliberate response.

2. Their support staff at (name withheld) keep phones off the hook when they have many complaints.

3. The lady incharge of field support claimed there was a support person on the way to assist me but kept me waiting for hours as ''punishment'' for having called support the previous day yet they came and did not find me. I left after waiting for hours.

4. The field support reports do not reflect the truth about the client's support experience. The time taken to respond etc is always under-reported and the fault details are usually distorted.

All the above were verified by a member of staff at that ISP.

5. The second ISP support staff hang-up after they realised the fault on my firewall was caused by one of them. No, i did not shout at anyone. He simply vanished because he had not solution and it was around 5:00pm. I have had to escalate previous cases to their CEO for a response.

All said, ISP support (with or without a well-worded SLA) in Kenya is a case study on how not to offer technical support ;-)

Does CCK regulate such standards of service? There should be an acceptable minimum that doesn't force me to keep moving from ISP to another.

Wainaina

On 4/28/10, Ms. Muthoni Masinde <muthoni@uonbi.ac.ke> wrote:

...

Dear Listers, Am sorry to interrupt this interesting debate on Sharia law....

From my experience, there seem to be something fundamentally wrong with the customer (especially technical) support by Access Kenya. I once attempted to host a Microsoft-based application (SQL Server, ASP and IIS) with them; I received pathetic service. I did not have a major problem with this though; may be MS was my undoing.

However, I have a big problem with Access Kenya’s security restrictions that forces one to administer his/her website only from a particular IP address. If you travel out of the country (or even out of your office for that matter) and you need to replace/edit particular content on your site; you will be in for big trouble! You will need to supply Access Kenya’s technical team with static IP address! I highly appreciate that this makes my website more secure but in the world where IP addresses are dynamic, you can as well forget about updating your website.

I recently traveled to Cape Town; while there, I urgently needed to update a home page of one of the sites I have hosted with Access Kenya. Your guess is right; I could not and the client (the owner of the website) felt like ‘killing’ me. Writing emails to the technical team yielded no response and I had to wait to be back in Kenya to update the site; hence my conclusion that the slogan for Access Kenya is ‘Access Kenya ONLY from Kenya/office’.

I apologize to Access Kenya for bringing this up to the ‘public’; I have tried to get help from within the organization’s customer care department for over a year in vain. My take is that more frustrated clients (like me), will opt to host websites out there (in US, UK etc) hence denying our ISP business.

Thank you, Muthoni Masinde, Lecturer, School of Computing and Informatics, UoN

----------------------------------------- This message has been scanned for viruses and dangerous content by MailScanner, and is believed to be clean.

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Thousands of candles can be lighted from a single candle, and the life of the candle will not be shortened. Happiness never decreases by being shared. ~ Buddha~

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Friends, Lets desist from such posts though, they elicit passions, we dont want our dear listers to be Ocampoed, i hear that he is setting shop in town. Happy Labour Day On Fri, Apr 30, 2010 at 1:12 PM, Solomon Mburu Kamau <solo.mburu@gmail.com> wrote:

On 28 April 2010 10:14, Fatma Bashir <fatma.bashir@gmail.com> wrote:

...

Thanks Wainaina,

For highlighting it and allowing us all to have a healthy discussion, these are issues that form our outlooks towards each other and if not cleared do lead to less healthy approaches to dealing with our differences.....

but I couldnt agree more with Harry, lets let it rest...

Cheers

Fatma

Just because one person from SUPKEM has found it wise to declare DSTV  and other video dens 'illegal' in Mandera, doesn't mean the whole Muslim community supports that. Many a time I have seen the way media makes a small matter blow out of proportion. For example, if two MPs from a region meet and declare their stand on something, the media quickly points out that the whole community and region has declared so. Yet in real sense, the MPs were trying to make some sideshows.

It is important not to let the now polarised (my views) constitution debate, to also make the general society think of our 'public choice'

...

On 4/28/10, Wainaina Mungai <wainaina@madeinkenya.org> wrote:

...

Thanks Fatma,

Well put ;-)

If this very rare "admission" by government officials is the truth, then clearly, the matter should rest.

If however, it is a move to 'manage' the Yes and No votes, then we will be back here discussing freedom of information, ICTs, propaganda and such relevant topics.

I remain hopeful that this was a genuine error by journalists from BBC and other media houses.

Time will tell.

Wainaina

On 4/28/10, Harry Delano <harry@comtelsys.co.ke> wrote:

...

All,

This should settle this debate. A rep of the media house who earlier reported, should take responsibility for misleading info and duly apologise, if on this list..

Let not this forum degenerate into a debate pitting opposing religions. We have quite alot in the field that pertains ICT, do deal with.

Regards, Harry

  _____

From: kictanet-bounces+harry=comtelsys.co.ke@lists.kictanet.or.ke [mailto:kictanet-bounces+harry=comtelsys.co.ke@lists.kictanet.or.ke] On Behalf Of Fatma Bashir Sent: Wednesday, April 28, 2010 8:07 AM To: harry@comtelsys.co.ke Cc: KICTAnet ICT Policy Discussions Subject: Re: [kictanet] Red Card for the Sheikhs

r Listers,

Please see below, from Nation Media website: link is:

http://www.nation.co.ke/News/PC%20says%20Govt%20shut%20down%20video%20dens/- /1056/907416/-/111hh3i/-/index.html

The government has claimed responsibility for a crackdown on video dens in North Eastern Province.

RELATED STORIES

*    Now Supkem

<http://www.nation.co.ke/News/regional/Now%20Supkem%20bans%20DStv%20in%20Nor th%20Eastern%20/-/1070/907312/-/qg8y6lz/-/index.html> 'bans' DStv in North Eastern

The North Eastern Provincial Commissioner James ole Seriani also reassured Multichoice Kenya, the operator of the DSTv channels and the locals that neither the government nor the clerics would interfere with the satellite broadcaster.

"I want to clarify a report appearing in both the local print and broadcast media that alleged that Sheikhs closed DSTv and video dens in Mandera. The truth is that the Mandera district security committee met in September last year and resolved to close all video dens," the administrator said in a message sent out to the media.

According to Mr Seriani, the district security committee was targeting halls that show immoral videos, those that hide criminals and aliens, those that admit school children when they are supposed to be in school and those that operate without license or sell drugs.

"Let me emphasise that it is not the Sheikhs who banned the shows but the district security committee and DSTv has not been banned."

The PC said the security team has no reason to interfere with DSTv because it only shows football, which he acknowledged was a popular sport in North Eastern.

He was, however, categorical that the provincial administration would carry on with the crackdown until the illegal dens are wiped out.

"We have the support of all the leaders which gives us the impetus to carry on with the clean-up," he said.

I think we all agree that this time, the media was irresponsible in the way it reported this incident.  Journalism calls for responsibility, especially at a time when this country is trying to put in a new constitutional order and to heal some of the wounds of the past.  Any person who loves children and believes in order and morality would laud the move to shut down video dens that allow children to be exposed to vices such as pornography, drugs and sexual abuse, whether Christian, Muslim, Hindu, Agnostic or Atheist. Good governance is also about building a society in which all persons are protected and particularly children, who are the most vulnerable of the lot.

On Wed, Apr 28, 2010 at 7:38 AM, Wainaina Mungai <wainaina@madeinkenya.org> wrote:

Fatma et al.

SOURCES: KTN news and other press reports. See BBC reports online. I verified the TV reports and watched as SUPKEM official lauded the move, stating how they should spread it to other towns. Video play-back available.

DSTV & VIDEO DENS: See press reports for my source & related details.

VIDEO DENS & JURISDICTION: Even where it is 'well-intended', a religious leader has no jurisdiction over businesses or legal issues such as the Muslim leaders purported to 'out-law'. So, it is not their place to do so. That's the point being drummed into Kenyans. You may lobby the government but you cannot outlaw anything with the imagined mandate to do so.

SUPKEM: A SUPKEM official was on TV stating how they should spread the same to other towns. Wrong approach again: no jurisdiction. That's a point that needs to get across otherwise, if Christians and Hindus enforced their ''laws'', life would be very uncomfortable for non-Christians or non-Hindus.

SECULAR STATE: The fact that the PM and President profess any sort of religion does not make KENYA a religious state. We need to be on the same page on that one. Those are (personal convictions). We do not pay them to perform (religious duties) towards persons who religiously agree with them. We pay them to deliver on totally non-religious functions of government/State for all people or every religion - including aethists. The Khadhi courts are financed for a 'religious function' that via the constitution is navigated into the realm of state functions through the judiciary. The Kadhi Courts, if retained in a Constitution, should be financed by those it is meant to serve. Special funding using my taxes needs to go towards persons with disabilities - not religious functions.

SHARIAH & KADHI COURTS: I have to admit I do not know the connections. What I was refering to is "Islamic teachings" that were quoted as the basis of the actions of the said Sheikh and the what the SUPKEM official stated would be spread to other towns. I may have dragged the wrong terminology along but well am sure the point is clear. Your religious convictions do not give you jurisdiction over anyone. We have adequate mechanisms (enforced or otherwise) to address matters in a non-religious manner. The Mombasa Mayor & councillors keep making that very same mistake of mixing religion with their statutory role. That is dangerous in a polarised situation as we what we have.

SHARIA & THE POOR: I admire the way (real) followers of Islamic teachings take care of others through alms and their dedication to virtue. I also admire how true Christians do the same and give up wealth for others in what some would call socialism. I admire how true Hindus build hospitals and give free healthcare. However, none of these should issue decrees or apply religious teachings on people who do not 'profess' that religion. We would have to agree on a State religion if we start that debate. Governance in a secular state (which is what we have in Kenya) does not require application of religion. If Kenya was to become a religious state....well, we all know it would be a Christian state...making things rather unbearable for people who profess other religions.

DSTV/Multichoice made a business decision not to ''jump onto the bandwagon'' (which included the Minister Poghisio) of condemning the actions in Mandera. I would guess (& i may be wrong ;-) ) it was not because they had a different conviction from that of the 'bandwagon'. They needed a PR decision which does not apply in my case. I need rights and freedoms enforced equally for all not because the Bible, Koran or Torah says so....but bacuse it is the law of the land.

DRUGS, HOMOSEXUALITY ETC: There is this growing trend at the Coast where 'Islamic teachings' are being used by councillors, the Mayor and Ministers from the region as their basis for fighting drug-trafficking and homosexuality. Refer to statements by Mombasa Mayor and Minister Balala in recent days (The Star). The basis for their recommedations (though well-intended) shows the extent of the misconceptions about the jurisdiction of religion in a secular state. The basis for fightlng crime, drug abuse or whatever else they perceive to be criminal is the KENYAN LAW - derived from Constitution, legislation, regulation, council by-laws etc.

Overall, my point is this: Religious leaders have a right to express concerns but have no jurisdiction in enforcing matters of State. Kadhi courts are to me, the product of such distorted views about the place of religion in a secular state. In the draft constitution, we continue to propagate a situation that favours one religion over others. The impact will become clear in a couple of years.

I have no quarrel with Islam, neither do I need to know the details of what is and what is not Islam or Hindu, Buddhist or Christian. All I need is the principles of good governance that apply to ALL persons in a secular state. In cases such as Mandera and Mombasa, we must have safeguards against people who may be mistaken in believing they have jurisdiction over others simply because they profess a faith that tells them as much.

I hope we are now on the same page.

Wainaina

On 4/28/10, Fatma Bashir <fatma.bashir@gmail.com> wrote:

...

Dear Listers,

I read the article in the papers and tried to link the shariah law to what I was reading in vain....however tho late in response I felt it would be appropriate to share some personla views...

response to the first post sent ( by Wainaina)

I am not sure where the information came from that the closing down of video dens has anything to do with enforcement of shari'ah law.  It is a matter of fact that video dens, which are scattered all over the less affluent regions of the country, and mainly in slums, are responsible for very many ills in those areas.  Talk to anyone living in a slum in Nairobi and they will testify to the fact that not only are children missing school to watch unsuitable movies, they are picking up extremely bad habits from these video dens and are being exposed to sexual abuse by sexual predators who not only give them the entrance fee to watch some movies but prey on them while they are in those very dens.  It is about time somebody stood up to this. Secondly, you must be more responsible when making a statement such as 'outlaw DSTV video dens and related activities'.  The only thing that was outlawed was the video dens and it was done with the full support of the local authorities.  If you live in Mandera and decide to install DSTV in your own house, then so be it but please, allow them to take responsibility for what their children are being fed by way of 'entertainment'

Anyone may watch supersport matches where they please and drink smoke etc but children must be protected. Try talking to someone whose child is exposed to this and lets hear what they have to say.

This is not about kadhi's courts, this is about protecting children in Kenya and clearly the authorities there felt that it was an important move to make,  This is not about shariah or the current/new constitution or any of that..... but about right thinking adults seeking to protect children. It just so happens to be a step taken by a people in an area vastly populated by Muslims... I laud DSTV for not jumping on the bandwagon and making rash comments and connections but monitoring ( read gather correct information) the situation before putting egg on their faces...kudos Isaboke and Ondimu.

Kenya is not a secular state. If it was, Raila would not go to such lengths to get himself baptized, and neither would the President going to church on Sunday be attended to by ministers and PSs and televised to boot.  Incidentally, I would like to know who fuels his car and pays for this bodyguards on Sunday  when he attends church - yes, yours and my hard earned taxes.

Let us try and be be responsible over some of the connections we make I think that there is no doubt that the kadhis courts are about personal, family and inheritance law for the Muslims and in no way affects non muslims...so please vote yes...Jesus does say love your neighbour.....so do love us please.

I challenge wainaina et all to find out more about shariah law...especially its inception and framework of implementation before the law is applied....and rest assured that Kenya is no where ready for this......and not in our great grand childrens lifetimes either. Please get facts from a reputable book or institutions some of the drivel I have read....!!!! kionjoo..... Do you think that the KRA would be ready and willing to take care of the poor and underpriviledged in this country by making sure that all eat ( three meals a day) get educated ( at public costs fully) have roofs over each and every head? using the taxes of the rich and priveledged to make sure that the poor and underpreviledged lead a minimum acceptable basic existence thus eliminating any reason to for example steal.......that is the FIRST demand shariah law would make upon its government.....yep Kenya not ready for this at all!

Regards, Fatma

 PS, as I am not a scholar on islamic studies the views above are personla but anchored on my limited understanding of fiqh islamic law..

On 4/27/10, Wainaina Mungai <wainaina@madeinkenya.org> wrote:

...

The recent move by Muslim Sheikhs to enforce Sharia Law, outlaw DSTV, video dens & related activities in Mandera could not have come at a more unfortunate time. The support they have received from SUPREM (Supreme Council of Kenya Muslims) further complicates the debate on the "continued" inclusion of Kadhi Courts in our Constitution.

Now that the SUPKEM has proved to support such apparent 'treason' in my secular nation,  President Kibaki and Prime Minister Odinga must also commit to ensuring that religion and religious courts are omitted from the new constitution. That is the pact they must sign with the NO campaign if a YES vote is to sail through without question. No religion, especially fundamentalist Islam, should enjoy the privileges of my hard-earned taxes to propagate religious activities that may disintegrate into such treasonable actions as by the Sheikhs.

My vote would easily change to a resounding "NO" unless I am assured by the Constitution that no Sheikh or Buddist monk, Hindu priest or Christian cleric will get away with the absurd audacity of attempting to determine where I watch my Supersport matches, what I drink as I do so; where and what I can smoke or drink in an independent secular KENYA.

No religion should 'get it twisted' on its place in secular Kenya and no loopholes should allow Sheikhs or SUPKEM to get away with such treasonable actions.

Regards, Wainaina

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Thousands of candles can be lighted from a single candle, and the life of the candle will not be shortened. Happiness never decreases by being shared. ~ Buddha~

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