Re: [kictanet] ISP Advertising Standards: Open Letter to CCK
I think there are well established definitions and standards e.g. those developed by the ITU on QoS. Should we apply these, it will be possible to benchmark the services offered by local ISPs against the standard, and determine whether they meet the threshold, which in my view, would if met, constitute "reasonable quality" as defined by the law. In addition, I think it is dishonest, and more so fraudulent to advertise network capable theoretical speeds as actual expected speeds, like most providers are currently doing. It is even worse, when the speed is throttled and the period which it is throttled, is not disclosed to consumers - who are expected to be always 'understanding' when we hear the 'our cables were vandalised' excuses, yet money, which in most cases is non-refundable has been paid! In my view, ISPs should reimburse users monies paid when they fail to meet QoS as expected, because it is a fundamental aspect which goes to the core of their contracts with users. CCK should implement the law. Victor Sent from my Windows 8 PC <http://windows.microsoft.com/consumer-preview> *From:* S.M. Muraya *Sent:* 13 September 2012 10:46:37 *To:* Victor Kapiyo <vkapiyo@gmail.com> *CC:* KICTAnet ICT Policy Discussions <kictanet@lists.kictanet.or.ke> *Subject:* Re: [kictanet] ISP Advertising Standards: Open Letter to CCK If no one ever reaches "up to xx Mbs" between 12am and 6am, is it a clear case of fraud / throttling bandwidth advertised? The ISP may have valid reasons for bandwidth throttling but CCK officials should (probably do) have connections to test advertised ISP services at their various residential locations. How about when ISP's can honestly claim (many times) that network "injuries" caused by accident or vandals lower their QoS? On Sep 13, 2012 9:59 AM, "Victor Kapiyo" <vkapiyo@gmail.com> wrote:
Collins, Listers,
I think it's important to have standards.
With regard to enforceability, allow me to quote some relevant provisions of the law:
The Constitution provides for Consumer Protection under Art. 46:
*46. (1) Consumers have the right—*
*(a) to goods and services of reasonable quality; * *(b) to the information necessary for them to gain full benefit from goods and services; * *(c) to the protection of their health, safety, and economic interests; and * *(d) to compensation for loss or injury arising from defects in goods or services. * *(2) Parliament shall enact legislation to provide for consumer protection and for fair, honest and decent advertising. * *(3) This Article applies to goods and services offered by public entities or private persons*
NB: The Consumer Protection Bill, which is to be enacted pursuant to Art 46 (2), is yet to be passed by Parliament.
In addition, we already have regulations under the Kenya Information and Communication Act, i.e. Kenya Information and Communication (Consumer Protection) Regulations 2010, which is already in force.
Allow me to quote:
*"3. Rights and obligations of customers.*
*(1) A customer shall have the right to—
(a) receive clear and complete information about rates, terms and conditions for available and proposed products and services;
(b) be charged only for the products and services they subscribe to;
(c) where possible, select a service provider and service of the customer’s choice;
(d) personal privacy and protection against unauthorized use of personal information;
(e) accurate and understandable bills for products and services authorised by the customer, and to fair prompt redress in the event of a dispute in the provision of the products and services;
(f) protection from unfair trade practices, including false and misleading advertising and anti-competitive behaviour by licensees; and
(g) equal opportunity for access to the same type and quality of service as other customers in the same area at substantially the same tariff limiting variations to available or appropriate technologies required to serve specific customers."*
And Rule 23:
*"23. Offences and penalties. (1) A licensee who—
(a) fails to perform the measurement, reporting and record keeping tasks within the required time;
(b) fails to reach a target for any of the parameters stipulated under these Regulations;
(c) fails to submit, during a time specified by the Commission, information requested by the Commission pursuant to these Regulations;
(d) submits or publishes false or misleading information about the quality of its services;
(e) obstructs or prevents an inspection or investigation carried out by the Commission pursuant to these Regulations;
(f) engages in any act or omission whose effect would be to defeat the purposes of these Regulations, commits an offence.
(3) A person who commits an offence under these Regulations shall, where no specific penalty is provided for, is liable on conviction to a fine not exceeding three hundred thousand shillings or to imprisonment for a term not exceeding three years or both."*
As you can see from the foregoing, there are sufficient provisions in the law to regulate licensee conduct with regard to advertising. If these were followed and implemented to the letter by all persons, then we'd have more transparency especially with regard to advertising.
What would perhaps problematic is the level of disclosure, i.e. what would constitute complete information within the meaning of the law?
Here, I think that either standards or further guidelines would be important, to provide clear criteria or guidelines for the class, elements or type of information that would need to be disclosed to meet the threshold of the provisions so quoted. I think the industry needs to sit down and agree on this bearing in mind the industry best practices and the practicability of implementing the same in the Kenyan context.
Victor
Sent from my Windows 8 PC <http://windows.microsoft.com/consumer-preview>
*From:* Ali Hussein <ali@hussein.me.ke> *Sent:* 11 September 2012 21:06:26 *To:* vkapiyo@gmail.com *CC:* KICTAnet ICT Policy Discussions <kictanet@lists.kictanet.or.ke> *Subject:* Re: [kictanet] ISP Advertising Standards: Open Letter to CCK
Collins
Good idea. We could also appeal to APA (Advertising Practitioners Association) as this also borders on culpability from an advertising agency perspective.
Ali Hussein
+254 773/713 601113
Sent from my iPhone®
On Sep 11, 2012, at 8:52 PM, Areba Collins [ @BrainiacKE ® ]< arebacollins@gmail.com> wrote:
Hello listers, Im following this from a discussion in the other list from one Kelvin, his assertions were:
I think we need to as a group write a couple of recommendations for the
CCK to rein in ISPs especially how they advertise. This could cover aspects such as :-
- Proper disclosure to customers on speeds i.e should Orange advertise 21mbps and get away with it - Outline whether its shared - Provide figures for the FUP - Disclose whether or not inernet is unlimited
There are some things you wouldnt get away with the FCC in the US .
What are your thoughts ?
Kevin
I need to hear what CCK has to say about this, I would very much preffer ISP companies to give full disclosure of what they are selling , using a standardized nomenclature. Could someone please advise if this is enforceable?
Regards,
-- *“The twentieth century has been characterized by three developments of great political importance: the growth of democracy, the growth of corporate power, and the growth of corporate propaganda as a means of protecting corporate power against democracy”*
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KICTANetiquette : Adhere to the same standards of acceptable behaviors online that you follow in real life: respect people's times and bandwidth, share knowledge, don't flame or abuse or personalize, respect privacy, do not spam, do not market your wares or qualifications.
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KICTANetiquette : Adhere to the same standards of acceptable behaviors online that you follow in real life: respect people's times and bandwidth, share knowledge, don't flame or abuse or personalize, respect privacy, do not spam, do not market your wares or qualifications.
Victor Good points. On the refund issue I have always found ISPs (Access Kenya specifically) very amenable and willing to give you a 'make do' for what they were unable to offer. Thing is that most customers are not aware of their rights. Ali Hussein +254 773/713 601113 Sent from my iPhone® On Sep 13, 2012, at 11:34 AM, Victor Kapiyo <vkapiyo@gmail.com> wrote:
I think there are well established definitions and standards e.g. those developed by the ITU on QoS.
Should we apply these, it will be possible to benchmark the services offered by local ISPs against the standard, and determine whether they meet the threshold, which in my view, would if met, constitute "reasonable quality" as defined by the law.
In addition, I think it is dishonest, and more so fraudulent to advertise network capable theoretical speeds as actual expected speeds, like most providers are currently doing.
It is even worse, when the speed is throttled and the period which it is throttled, is not disclosed to consumers - who are expected to be always 'understanding' when we hear the 'our cables were vandalised' excuses, yet money, which in most cases is non-refundable has been paid!
In my view, ISPs should reimburse users monies paid when they fail to meet QoS as expected, because it is a fundamental aspect which goes to the core of their contracts with users.
CCK should implement the law.
Victor
Sent from my Windows 8 PC
From: S.M. Muraya Sent: 13 September 2012 10:46:37 To: Victor Kapiyo <vkapiyo@gmail.com> CC: KICTAnet ICT Policy Discussions <kictanet@lists.kictanet.or.ke> Subject: Re: [kictanet] ISP Advertising Standards: Open Letter to CCK
If no one ever reaches "up to xx Mbs" between 12am and 6am, is it a clear case of fraud / throttling bandwidth advertised?
The ISP may have valid reasons for bandwidth throttling but CCK officials should (probably do) have connections to test advertised ISP services at their various residential locations.
How about when ISP's can honestly claim (many times) that network "injuries" caused by accident or vandals lower their QoS?
On Sep 13, 2012 9:59 AM, "Victor Kapiyo" <vkapiyo@gmail.com> wrote: Collins, Listers,
I think it's important to have standards.
With regard to enforceability, allow me to quote some relevant provisions of the law:
The Constitution provides for Consumer Protection under Art. 46:
46. (1) Consumers have the right—
(a) to goods and services of reasonable quality; (b) to the information necessary for them to gain full benefit from goods and services; (c) to the protection of their health, safety, and economic interests; and (d) to compensation for loss or injury arising from defects in goods or services. (2) Parliament shall enact legislation to provide for consumer protection and for fair, honest and decent advertising. (3) This Article applies to goods and services offered by public entities or private persons
NB: The Consumer Protection Bill, which is to be enacted pursuant to Art 46 (2), is yet to be passed by Parliament.
In addition, we already have regulations under the Kenya Information and Communication Act, i.e. Kenya Information and Communication (Consumer Protection) Regulations 2010, which is already in force.
Allow me to quote:
"3. Rights and obligations of customers.
(1) A customer shall have the right to—
(a) receive clear and complete information about rates, terms and conditions for available and proposed products and services;
(b) be charged only for the products and services they subscribe to;
(c) where possible, select a service provider and service of the customer’s choice;
(d) personal privacy and protection against unauthorized use of personal information;
(e) accurate and understandable bills for products and services authorised by the customer, and to fair prompt redress in the event of a dispute in the provision of the products and services;
(f) protection from unfair trade practices, including false and misleading advertising and anti-competitive behaviour by licensees; and
(g) equal opportunity for access to the same type and quality of service as other customers in the same area at substantially the same tariff limiting variations to available or appropriate technologies required to serve specific customers."
And Rule 23:
"23. Offences and penalties. (1) A licensee who—
(a) fails to perform the measurement, reporting and record keeping tasks within the required time;
(b) fails to reach a target for any of the parameters stipulated under these Regulations;
(c) fails to submit, during a time specified by the Commission, information requested by the Commission pursuant to these Regulations;
(d) submits or publishes false or misleading information about the quality of its services;
(e) obstructs or prevents an inspection or investigation carried out by the Commission pursuant to these Regulations;
(f) engages in any act or omission whose effect would be to defeat the purposes of these Regulations, commits an offence.
(3) A person who commits an offence under these Regulations shall, where no specific penalty is provided for, is liable on conviction to a fine not exceeding three hundred thousand shillings or to imprisonment for a term not exceeding three years or both."
As you can see from the foregoing, there are sufficient provisions in the law to regulate licensee conduct with regard to advertising. If these were followed and implemented to the letter by all persons, then we'd have more transparency especially with regard to advertising.
What would perhaps problematic is the level of disclosure, i.e. what would constitute complete information within the meaning of the law?
Here, I think that either standards or further guidelines would be important, to provide clear criteria or guidelines for the class, elements or type of information that would need to be disclosed to meet the threshold of the provisions so quoted. I think the industry needs to sit down and agree on this bearing in mind the industry best practices and the practicability of implementing the same in the Kenyan context.
Victor
Sent from my Windows 8 PC
From: Ali Hussein <ali@hussein.me.ke> Sent: 11 September 2012 21:06:26 To: vkapiyo@gmail.com CC: KICTAnet ICT Policy Discussions <kictanet@lists.kictanet.or.ke> Subject: Re: [kictanet] ISP Advertising Standards: Open Letter to CCK
Collins
Good idea. We could also appeal to APA (Advertising Practitioners Association) as this also borders on culpability from an advertising agency perspective.
Ali Hussein
+254 773/713 601113
Sent from my iPhone®
On Sep 11, 2012, at 8:52 PM, Areba Collins [ @BrainiacKE ® ]<arebacollins@gmail.com> wrote:
Hello listers, Im following this from a discussion in the other list from one Kelvin, his assertions were:
I think we need to as a group write a couple of recommendations for the CCK to rein in ISPs especially how they advertise. This could cover aspects such as :-
Proper disclosure to customers on speeds i.e should Orange advertise 21mbps and get away with it Outline whether its shared Provide figures for the FUP Disclose whether or not inernet is unlimited There are some things you wouldnt get away with the FCC in the US .
What are your thoughts ?
Kevin
I need to hear what CCK has to say about this, I would very much preffer ISP companies to give full disclosure of what they are selling , using a standardized nomenclature. Could someone please advise if this is enforceable?
Regards,
-- “The twentieth century has been characterized by three developments of great political importance: the growth of democracy, the growth of corporate power, and the growth of corporate propaganda as a means of protecting corporate power against democracy”
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KICTANetiquette : Adhere to the same standards of acceptable behaviors online that you follow in real life: respect people's times and bandwidth, share knowledge, don't flame or abuse or personalize, respect privacy, do not spam, do not market your wares or qualifications.
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KICTANetiquette : Adhere to the same standards of acceptable behaviors online that you follow in real life: respect people's times and bandwidth, share knowledge, don't flame or abuse or personalize, respect privacy, do not spam, do not market your wares or qualifications.
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KICTANetiquette : Adhere to the same standards of acceptable behaviors online that you follow in real life: respect people's times and bandwidth, share knowledge, don't flame or abuse or personalize, respect privacy, do not spam, do not market your wares or qualifications. _______________________________________________ kictanet mailing list kictanet@lists.kictanet.or.ke https://lists.kictanet.or.ke/mailman/listinfo/kictanet
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The Kenya ICT Action Network (KICTANet) is a multi-stakeholder platform for people and institutions interested and involved in ICT policy and regulation. The network aims to act as a catalyst for reform in the ICT sector in support of the national aim of ICT enabled growth and development.
KICTANetiquette : Adhere to the same standards of acceptable behaviors online that you follow in real life: respect people's times and bandwidth, share knowledge, don't flame or abuse or personalize, respect privacy, do not spam, do not market your wares or qualifications.
and thats why we kept the ITU out of the internet business, too many rules and control. We might let them in through the new itr's but talk of QOS on the internet just doesnt add up so far unless we change the current commercial settlement models. But this sort of deviates from what the original post was about so I'll leave it at that for now. On Thu, Sep 13, 2012 at 11:34 AM, Victor Kapiyo <vkapiyo@gmail.com> wrote:
I think there are well established definitions and standards e.g. those developed by the ITU on QoS.
I remember a similar issue in the UK and the consumer federation took it up and forced the broadband providers to define the FUP and the expected speeds during their campaigns. Can COFECK take this up? On Thu, Sep 13, 2012 at 1:30 PM, John Gitau <jgitau@gmail.com> wrote:
and thats why we kept the ITU out of the internet business, too many rules and control. We might let them in through the new itr's but talk of QOS on the internet just doesnt add up so far unless we change the current commercial settlement models. But this sort of deviates from what the original post was about so I'll leave it at that for now.
On Thu, Sep 13, 2012 at 11:34 AM, Victor Kapiyo <vkapiyo@gmail.com> wrote:
I think there are well established definitions and standards e.g. those developed by the ITU on QoS.
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The Kenya ICT Action Network (KICTANet) is a multi-stakeholder platform for people and institutions interested and involved in ICT policy and regulation. The network aims to act as a catalyst for reform in the ICT sector in support of the national aim of ICT enabled growth and development.
KICTANetiquette : Adhere to the same standards of acceptable behaviors online that you follow in real life: respect people's times and bandwidth, share knowledge, don't flame or abuse or personalize, respect privacy, do not spam, do not market your wares or qualifications.
-- Regards, Mark Mwangi markmwangi.me.ke
Meanwhile, Brazil is looking at an Internet Bill of Rights! http://www.deepdishwavesofchange.org/blog/2012/09/world%E2%80%99s-first-bill... 2012/9/13 Mark Mwangi <mwangy@gmail.com>:
I remember a similar issue in the UK and the consumer federation took it up and forced the broadband providers to define the FUP and the expected speeds during their campaigns. Can COFECK take this up?
On Thu, Sep 13, 2012 at 1:30 PM, John Gitau <jgitau@gmail.com> wrote:
and thats why we kept the ITU out of the internet business, too many rules and control. We might let them in through the new itr's but talk of QOS on the internet just doesnt add up so far unless we change the current commercial settlement models. But this sort of deviates from what the original post was about so I'll leave it at that for now.
On Thu, Sep 13, 2012 at 11:34 AM, Victor Kapiyo <vkapiyo@gmail.com> wrote:
I think there are well established definitions and standards e.g. those developed by the ITU on QoS.
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The Kenya ICT Action Network (KICTANet) is a multi-stakeholder platform for people and institutions interested and involved in ICT policy and regulation. The network aims to act as a catalyst for reform in the ICT sector in support of the national aim of ICT enabled growth and development.
KICTANetiquette : Adhere to the same standards of acceptable behaviors online that you follow in real life: respect people's times and bandwidth, share knowledge, don't flame or abuse or personalize, respect privacy, do not spam, do not market your wares or qualifications.
-- Regards,
Mark Mwangi
markmwangi.me.ke
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The Kenya ICT Action Network (KICTANet) is a multi-stakeholder platform for people and institutions interested and involved in ICT policy and regulation. The network aims to act as a catalyst for reform in the ICT sector in support of the national aim of ICT enabled growth and development.
KICTANetiquette : Adhere to the same standards of acceptable behaviors online that you follow in real life: respect people's times and bandwidth, share knowledge, don't flame or abuse or personalize, respect privacy, do not spam, do not market your wares or qualifications.
-- Grace L.N. Mutung'u (Bomu) Kenya Skype: gracebomu Twitter: @Bomu Website: http://www.diplointernetgovernance.org/profile/GraceMutungu
I long ago resigned myself to my fate. That I will always have 1/16th of the advertised speeds and be forced to spend on multiple connections to the Internet. Kind regards, Muchiri Nyaggah | PRINCIPAL PARTNER @muchiri Cell: +254 722 506400 We work with leaders to identify and bring to market great innovations in Africa. SEMACRAFT CONSULTING PARTNERS Nairobi, Kenya. www.semacraft.com | www.semacraft.com/blog twitter: @semacraft On Fri, Sep 14, 2012 at 6:53 AM, Grace Mutung'u (Bomu) <nmutungu@gmail.com>wrote:
Meanwhile, Brazil is looking at an Internet Bill of Rights!
http://www.deepdishwavesofchange.org/blog/2012/09/world%E2%80%99s-first-bill...
2012/9/13 Mark Mwangi <mwangy@gmail.com>:
I remember a similar issue in the UK and the consumer federation took it up and forced the broadband providers to define the FUP and the expected speeds during their campaigns. Can COFECK take this up?
On Thu, Sep 13, 2012 at 1:30 PM, John Gitau <jgitau@gmail.com> wrote:
and thats why we kept the ITU out of the internet business, too many
rules
and control. We might let them in through the new itr's but talk of QOS on the internet just doesnt add up so far unless we change the current commercial settlement models. But this sort of deviates from what the original post was about so I'll leave it at that for now.
On Thu, Sep 13, 2012 at 11:34 AM, Victor Kapiyo <vkapiyo@gmail.com> wrote:
I think there are well established definitions and standards e.g. those developed by the ITU on QoS.
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The Kenya ICT Action Network (KICTANet) is a multi-stakeholder platform for people and institutions interested and involved in ICT policy and regulation. The network aims to act as a catalyst for reform in the ICT sector in support of the national aim of ICT enabled growth and
development.
KICTANetiquette : Adhere to the same standards of acceptable behaviors online that you follow in real life: respect people's times and
bandwidth,
share knowledge, don't flame or abuse or personalize, respect privacy, do not spam, do not market your wares or qualifications.
-- Regards,
Mark Mwangi
markmwangi.me.ke
_______________________________________________ kictanet mailing list kictanet@lists.kictanet.or.ke https://lists.kictanet.or.ke/mailman/listinfo/kictanet
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The Kenya ICT Action Network (KICTANet) is a multi-stakeholder platform
for
people and institutions interested and involved in ICT policy and regulation. The network aims to act as a catalyst for reform in the ICT sector in support of the national aim of ICT enabled growth and development.
KICTANetiquette : Adhere to the same standards of acceptable behaviors online that you follow in real life: respect people's times and bandwidth, share knowledge, don't flame or abuse or personalize, respect privacy, do not spam, do not market your wares or qualifications.
-- Grace L.N. Mutung'u (Bomu) Kenya Skype: gracebomu Twitter: @Bomu Website: http://www.diplointernetgovernance.org/profile/GraceMutungu
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The Kenya ICT Action Network (KICTANet) is a multi-stakeholder platform for people and institutions interested and involved in ICT policy and regulation. The network aims to act as a catalyst for reform in the ICT sector in support of the national aim of ICT enabled growth and development.
KICTANetiquette : Adhere to the same standards of acceptable behaviors online that you follow in real life: respect people's times and bandwidth, share knowledge, don't flame or abuse or personalize, respect privacy, do not spam, do not market your wares or qualifications.
participants (6)
-
Ali Hussein -
Grace Mutung'u (Bomu) -
John Gitau -
Mark Mwangi -
Muchiri Nyaggah -
Victor Kapiyo