Re: [kictanet] GAY HATING WEBSITE (HATING KENYAN GAYS)
All: I do not think that calling attention to such sites serves anyone's interests but those behind the site. Even if you contact GoDaddy the people behind it can be up and running within hours. In the age of the Internet, censorship does not work. Sites like that generally hang around unnoticed unless there is a lawsuit or a challenge that brings attention to them. It is called the "Streisand Effect <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Streisand_effect>": The Streisand effect is a primarily online phenomenon in which an attempt to
censor or remove a piece of information has the unintended consequence of causing the information to be publicized widely and to a greater extent than would have occurred if no censorship had been attempted.
BTW I looked at the front page of the site, and with the exception of the naming of individuals, I did not see anything that would unduly worry me. Calling people to rally (peacefully) behind a cause is the essence of democracy and free speech. I suggest we let such sites wither away in oblivion. My $0.02 -Mw On Thu, Mar 11, 2010 at 6:15 PM, Janet Feldman <kaippg@earthlink.net> wrote:
Dear Wainaina and All,
Hello and good to see you posting. I think we are all concerned about the recurrence of possible violence and of the growing intolerance that we are reading about and seeing in Kenya.
That issue is directly linked in some ways to the kinds of intolerance, hatred and violence exhibited by the folks who have set up this site we are discussing. Insert the word "Luo" or "Kikuyu" instead of "gay", and you might find that some people would agree exactly with what is being said. "Down with Luos", or "down with Kikuyus"..."they are not like us, they are (insert a pejorative), they are different." Sometimes it is not too far a step to then say: "these people are different, they don't deserve to live."
I'm not clear what you are saying in your first paragraph: are you saying that anyone who wants to exhibit any kind of behavior, and use the media to do it, should be allowed to do so? "Hate-radio" in Rwanda has been linked directly to the genocide there: while the issues and problems that brought about that terrible situation went way beyond the use of media to foment violence, one of the main conclusions that many analysts have made in the aftermath of that tragedy is that those particular stations should have been shut down.
There are standards for licensing of stations, and those do include some of what one would call "ethics" and "public responsibility." Yahoogroups and Googlegroups have some guidelines, too, for responsible behaviors in the forum context. The very kinds of things said on that site, if said in a public forum, could shut that forum down, or at least get the individual uttering them expelled from use of those groups.
I do think we need to be careful about the use of that method, but in certain circumstances--especially where lives might be at stake--it does seem appropriate to consider same. If one is worried about the stoking of violence--in Kenya or elsewhere--and there are media outlets doing just that, which is irresponsible in the extreme for a media source catering to "the public", then taking away their ability to keep operating does not seem too drastic, in fact, it seems essential.
Thanks and best wishes, Janet
-----Original Message----- From: Wainaina Mungai Sent: Mar 11, 2010 5:15 PM To: Janet Feldman Cc: KICTAnet ICT Policy Discussions Subject: Re: [kictanet] GAY HATING WEBSITE (HATING KENYAN GAYS)
1. Since the recommended solution seems to be to "shut down" such channels conveying "hate speech"; should I expect that we would also shut down the offending vernacular FM radio stations in Kenya (re; 2007/8 PEV) whose utterances/actions contributed to hundreds of thousands of Kenyans becoming internal refugees after the 2007 elections? And we haven't counted the thousands who died. When do we shut down the radio/TV stations??
2. A more important issue for Kenya is the emerging evidence that the hate that tore this nation apart in 2007/8 is simmering in several provinces as tribes acquire weapons in the event violence recurs. * * WM
On Thu, Mar 11, 2010 at 11:41 PM, Janet Feldman <kaippg@earthlink.net>wrote:
Dear Grace and All,
Hello and thanks for alerting us to this terrible site...ironic that they call others filthy!
I am going to alert GoDaddy, where I have a website, and also Facebook and other venues about this site. I'm sure they have some policies on the promotion of hate speech and on fomenting of hatred, so I hope they will be able to shut down this one.
Even if not, we can at least remain alert to all forms of violence, hatred, and discrimination with what you have posted, and know what this kind of response leads to...just the very violence and hatred that rocked Kenya in 2008, when a combination of political/economic and social/ethnic factors threatened to tear the country apart.
With immense appreciation for your caring and concern, and blessings to all, Janet
-----Original Message----- From: Grace Bomu Sent: Mar 11, 2010 7:14 AM To: kaippg@earthlink.net Cc: KICTAnet ICT Policy Discussions Subject: [kictanet] GAY HATING WEBSITE (HATING KENYAN GAYS)
Hi all, The website below is promoting a hate culture at a time when the issue of gays, personal laws in the Bill of rights/constitutional making is very hot. Are we using media to promote bias like we did in 2007 and is there any intervention that the Government or anyone can take? I appreciate that the site is not registered in Kenya but the information is circulating in Kenya....and it could be a forerunner to the kind of e-hate campaigns we could see come another election/referendum.
http://www.projectsee.com/ Domain Name: PROJECTSEE.COM <http://projectsee.com/> Registrar: GODADDY.COM <http://godaddy.com/>, INC. Whois Server: whois.godaddy.com Referral URL: http://registrar.godaddy.com Name Server: NS13.DOMAINCONTROL.COM <http://ns13.domaincontrol.com/> Name Server: NS14.DOMAINCONTROL.COM <http://ns14.domaincontrol.com/> Status: clientDeleteProhibited Status: clientRenewProhibited Status: clientTransferProhibited Status: clientUpdateProhibited Updated Date: 14-nov-2009 Creation Date: 14-nov-2009 Expiration Date: 14-nov-2010
-- Grace L.N. Mutung'u (Bomu) +254721898732 +254736091242 Kenya
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this issue is quite complex- a classic example of content regulation challenges. Here are the issues as I see them 1. the site promotes anti-gay sentiments 2. the site is hosted outside Kenya but ofcourse accessible by Kenyans and does relate to Kenyans 3. the Kenyan law does NOT encourage homosexuality (the lawyers can correct me but I think it criminalises this behaviour) Given the above legal status, one is likely to find little legal favor in trying to get the local regulator to pulldown or filter the site. In any case, the site is hosted outside Kenya and our regulator would have little impact on the same even if they wanted to. walu. --- On Fri, 3/12/10, Mwangi Wamae <mwangi.wamae@gmail.com> wrote: From: Mwangi Wamae <mwangi.wamae@gmail.com> Subject: Re: [kictanet] GAY HATING WEBSITE (HATING KENYAN GAYS) To: jwalu@yahoo.com Cc: "KICTAnet ICT Policy Discussions" <kictanet@lists.kictanet.or.ke> Date: Friday, March 12, 2010, 3:41 AM All: I do not think that calling attention to such sites serves anyone's interests but those behind the site. Even if you contact GoDaddy the people behind it can be up and running within hours. In the age of the Internet, censorship does not work. Sites like that generally hang around unnoticed unless there is a lawsuit or a challenge that brings attention to them. It is called the "Streisand Effect": The Streisand effect is a primarily online phenomenon in which an attempt to censor or remove a piece of information has the unintended consequence of causing the information to be publicized widely and to a greater extent than would have occurred if no censorship had been attempted. BTW I looked at the front page of the site, and with the exception of the naming of individuals, I did not see anything that would unduly worry me. Calling people to rally (peacefully) behind a cause is the essence of democracy and free speech. I suggest we let such sites wither away in oblivion. My $0.02 -Mw On Thu, Mar 11, 2010 at 6:15 PM, Janet Feldman <kaippg@earthlink.net> wrote: Dear Wainaina and All, Hello and good to see you posting. I think we are all concerned about the recurrence of possible violence and of the growing intolerance that we are reading about and seeing in Kenya. That issue is directly linked in some ways to the kinds of intolerance, hatred and violence exhibited by the folks who have set up this site we are discussing. Insert the word "Luo" or "Kikuyu" instead of "gay", and you might find that some people would agree exactly with what is being said. "Down with Luos", or "down with Kikuyus"..."they are not like us, they are (insert a pejorative), they are different." Sometimes it is not too far a step to then say: "these people are different, they don't deserve to live." I'm not clear what you are saying in your first paragraph: are you saying that anyone who wants to exhibit any kind of behavior, and use the media to do it, should be allowed to do so? "Hate-radio" in Rwanda has been linked directly to the genocide there: while the issues and problems that brought about that terrible situation went way beyond the use of media to foment violence, one of the main conclusions that many analysts have made in the aftermath of that tragedy is that those particular stations should have been shut down. There are standards for licensing of stations, and those do include some of what one would call "ethics" and "public responsibility." Yahoogroups and Googlegroups have some guidelines, too, for responsible behaviors in the forum context. The very kinds of things said on that site, if said in a public forum, could shut that forum down, or at least get the individual uttering them expelled from use of those groups. I do think we need to be careful about the use of that method, but in certain circumstances--especially where lives might be at stake--it does seem appropriate to consider same. If one is worried about the stoking of violence--in Kenya or elsewhere--and there are media outlets doing just that, which is irresponsible in the extreme for a media source catering to "the public", then taking away their ability to keep operating does not seem too drastic, in fact, it seems essential. Thanks and best wishes, Janet -----Original Message----- From: Wainaina Mungai Sent: Mar 11, 2010 5:15 PM To: Janet Feldman Cc: KICTAnet ICT Policy Discussions Subject: Re: [kictanet] GAY HATING WEBSITE (HATING KENYAN GAYS) 1. Since the recommended solution seems to be to "shut down" such channels conveying "hate speech"; should I expect that we would also shut down the offending vernacular FM radio stations in Kenya (re; 2007/8 PEV) whose utterances/actions contributed to hundreds of thousands of Kenyans becoming internal refugees after the 2007 elections? And we haven't counted the thousands who died. When do we shut down the radio/TV stations?? 2. A more important issue for Kenya is the emerging evidence that the hate that tore this nation apart in 2007/8 is simmering in several provinces as tribes acquire weapons in the event violence recurs. WM On Thu, Mar 11, 2010 at 11:41 PM, Janet Feldman <kaippg@earthlink.net> wrote: Dear Grace and All, Hello and thanks for alerting us to this terrible site...ironic that they call others filthy! I am going to alert GoDaddy, where I have a website, and also Facebook and other venues about this site. I'm sure they have some policies on the promotion of hate speech and on fomenting of hatred, so I hope they will be able to shut down this one. Even if not, we can at least remain alert to all forms of violence, hatred, and discrimination with what you have posted, and know what this kind of response leads to...just the very violence and hatred that rocked Kenya in 2008, when a combination of political/economic and social/ethnic factors threatened to tear the country apart. With immense appreciation for your caring and concern, and blessings to all, Janet -----Original Message----- From: Grace Bomu Sent: Mar 11, 2010 7:14 AM To: kaippg@earthlink.net Cc: KICTAnet ICT Policy Discussions Subject: [kictanet] GAY HATING WEBSITE (HATING KENYAN GAYS) Hi all, The website below is promoting a hate culture at a time when the issue of gays, personal laws in the Bill of rights/constitutional making is very hot. Are we using media to promote bias like we did in 2007 and is there any intervention that the Government or anyone can take? I appreciate that the site is not registered in Kenya but the information is circulating in Kenya....and it could be a forerunner to the kind of e-hate campaigns we could see come another election/referendum. http://www.projectsee.com/ Domain Name: PROJECTSEE.COM Registrar: GODADDY.COM, INC. Whois Server: whois.godaddy.com Referral URL: http://registrar.godaddy.com Name Server: NS13.DOMAINCONTROL.COM Name Server: NS14.DOMAINCONTROL.COM Status: clientDeleteProhibited Status: clientRenewProhibited Status: clientTransferProhibited Status: clientUpdateProhibited Updated Date: 14-nov-2009 Creation Date: 14-nov-2009 Expiration Date: 14-nov-2010 -- Grace L.N. Mutung'u (Bomu) +254721898732 +254736091242 Kenya _______________________________________________ kictanet mailing list kictanet@lists.kictanet.or.ke http://lists.kictanet.or.ke/mailman/listinfo/kictanet This message was sent to: wainaina.mungai@gmail.com Unsubscribe or change your options at http://lists.kictanet.or.ke/mailman/options/kictanet/wainaina.mungai%40gmail... -- --- http://www.bungesms.com http://www.madeinkenya.org http://www.wainainamungai.com _______________________________________________ kictanet mailing list kictanet@lists.kictanet.or.ke http://lists.kictanet.or.ke/mailman/listinfo/kictanet This message was sent to: mwangi.wamae@gmail.com Unsubscribe or change your options at http://lists.kictanet.or.ke/mailman/options/kictanet/mwangi.wamae%40gmail.co... -----Inline Attachment Follows----- _______________________________________________ kictanet mailing list kictanet@lists.kictanet.or.ke http://lists.kictanet.or.ke/mailman/listinfo/kictanet This message was sent to: jwalu@yahoo.com Unsubscribe or change your options at http://lists.kictanet.or.ke/mailman/options/kictanet/jwalu%40yahoo.com
Bomu, You raise a relevant concern, however the issue of jurisdiction comes to play as Walu has explained. Even if you put in a Notice Take Down on the site, that may not be an issue to the host! (Go Daddy for this case) and our regulator may not be able act effectively since it's not hosted here. maybe you may want to take a new route on e-Civil education but keep in mind this topic is still very contentious and not well received locally. SammyG On Fri, Mar 12, 2010 at 8:21 AM, Walubengo J <jwalu@yahoo.com> wrote:
this issue is quite complex- a classic example of content regulation challenges. Here are the issues as I see them
1. the site promotes anti-gay sentiments 2. the site is hosted outside Kenya but ofcourse accessible by Kenyans and does relate to Kenyans 3. the Kenyan law does NOT encourage homosexuality (the lawyers can correct me but I think it criminalises this behaviour)
Given the above legal status, one is likely to find little legal favor in trying to get the local regulator to pulldown or filter the site. In any case, the site is hosted outside Kenya and our regulator would have little impact on the same even if they wanted to.
walu.
--- On *Fri, 3/12/10, Mwangi Wamae <mwangi.wamae@gmail.com>* wrote:
From: Mwangi Wamae <mwangi.wamae@gmail.com>
Subject: Re: [kictanet] GAY HATING WEBSITE (HATING KENYAN GAYS) To: jwalu@yahoo.com Cc: "KICTAnet ICT Policy Discussions" <kictanet@lists.kictanet.or.ke> Date: Friday, March 12, 2010, 3:41 AM
All:
I do not think that calling attention to such sites serves anyone's interests but those behind the site. Even if you contact GoDaddy the people behind it can be up and running within hours. In the age of the Internet, censorship does not work.
Sites like that generally hang around unnoticed unless there is a lawsuit or a challenge that brings attention to them. It is called the "Streisand Effect <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Streisand_effect>":
The Streisand effect is a primarily online phenomenon in which an attempt
to censor or remove a piece of information has the unintended consequence of causing the information to be publicized widely and to a greater extent than would have occurred if no censorship had been attempted.
BTW I looked at the front page of the site, and with the exception of the naming of individuals, I did not see anything that would unduly worry me. Calling people to rally (peacefully) behind a cause is the essence of democracy and free speech.
I suggest we let such sites wither away in oblivion.
My $0.02
-Mw
On Thu, Mar 11, 2010 at 6:15 PM, Janet Feldman <kaippg@earthlink.net<http://mc/compose?to=kaippg@earthlink.net>
wrote:
Dear Wainaina and All,
Hello and good to see you posting. I think we are all concerned about the recurrence of possible violence and of the growing intolerance that we are reading about and seeing in Kenya.
That issue is directly linked in some ways to the kinds of intolerance, hatred and violence exhibited by the folks who have set up this site we are discussing. Insert the word "Luo" or "Kikuyu" instead of "gay", and you might find that some people would agree exactly with what is being said. "Down with Luos", or "down with Kikuyus"..."they are not like us, they are (insert a pejorative), they are different." Sometimes it is not too far a step to then say: "these people are different, they don't deserve to live."
I'm not clear what you are saying in your first paragraph: are you saying that anyone who wants to exhibit any kind of behavior, and use the media to do it, should be allowed to do so? "Hate-radio" in Rwanda has been linked directly to the genocide there: while the issues and problems that brought about that terrible situation went way beyond the use of media to foment violence, one of the main conclusions that many analysts have made in the aftermath of that tragedy is that those particular stations should have been shut down.
There are standards for licensing of stations, and those do include some of what one would call "ethics" and "public responsibility." Yahoogroups and Googlegroups have some guidelines, too, for responsible behaviors in the forum context. The very kinds of things said on that site, if said in a public forum, could shut that forum down, or at least get the individual uttering them expelled from use of those groups.
I do think we need to be careful about the use of that method, but in certain circumstances--especially where lives might be at stake--it does seem appropriate to consider same. If one is worried about the stoking of violence--in Kenya or elsewhere--and there are media outlets doing just that, which is irresponsible in the extreme for a media source catering to "the public", then taking away their ability to keep operating does not seem too drastic, in fact, it seems essential.
Thanks and best wishes, Janet
-----Original Message----- From: Wainaina Mungai Sent: Mar 11, 2010 5:15 PM To: Janet Feldman Cc: KICTAnet ICT Policy Discussions Subject: Re: [kictanet] GAY HATING WEBSITE (HATING KENYAN GAYS)
1. Since the recommended solution seems to be to "shut down" such channels conveying "hate speech"; should I expect that we would also shut down the offending vernacular FM radio stations in Kenya (re; 2007/8 PEV) whose utterances/actions contributed to hundreds of thousands of Kenyans becoming internal refugees after the 2007 elections? And we haven't counted the thousands who died. When do we shut down the radio/TV stations??
2. A more important issue for Kenya is the emerging evidence that the hate that tore this nation apart in 2007/8 is simmering in several provinces as tribes acquire weapons in the event violence recurs. * * WM
On Thu, Mar 11, 2010 at 11:41 PM, Janet Feldman <kaippg@earthlink.net<http://mc/compose?to=kaippg@earthlink.net>
wrote:
Dear Grace and All,
Hello and thanks for alerting us to this terrible site...ironic that they call others filthy!
I am going to alert GoDaddy, where I have a website, and also Facebook and other venues about this site. I'm sure they have some policies on the promotion of hate speech and on fomenting of hatred, so I hope they will be able to shut down this one.
Even if not, we can at least remain alert to all forms of violence, hatred, and discrimination with what you have posted, and know what this kind of response leads to...just the very violence and hatred that rocked Kenya in 2008, when a combination of political/economic and social/ethnic factors threatened to tear the country apart.
With immense appreciation for your caring and concern, and blessings to all, Janet
-----Original Message----- From: Grace Bomu Sent: Mar 11, 2010 7:14 AM To: kaippg@earthlink.net <http://mc/compose?to=kaippg@earthlink.net> Cc: KICTAnet ICT Policy Discussions Subject: [kictanet] GAY HATING WEBSITE (HATING KENYAN GAYS)
Hi all, The website below is promoting a hate culture at a time when the issue of gays, personal laws in the Bill of rights/constitutional making is very hot. Are we using media to promote bias like we did in 2007 and is there any intervention that the Government or anyone can take? I appreciate that the site is not registered in Kenya but the information is circulating in Kenya....and it could be a forerunner to the kind of e-hate campaigns we could see come another election/referendum.
http://www.projectsee.com/ Domain Name: PROJECTSEE.COM <http://projectsee.com/> Registrar: GODADDY.COM <http://godaddy.com/>, INC. Whois Server: whois.godaddy.com Referral URL: http://registrar.godaddy.com Name Server: NS13.DOMAINCONTROL.COM <http://ns13.domaincontrol.com/> Name Server: NS14.DOMAINCONTROL.COM <http://ns14.domaincontrol.com/> Status: clientDeleteProhibited Status: clientRenewProhibited Status: clientTransferProhibited Status: clientUpdateProhibited Updated Date: 14-nov-2009 Creation Date: 14-nov-2009 Expiration Date: 14-nov-2010
-- Grace L.N. Mutung'u (Bomu) +254721898732 +254736091242 Kenya
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I totally agree with Mwangi Wamae.The Streisand phenomenon is a new term for me though, but it describes a phenomenon I know only too well. Only that I didn't know it has a name. Regards, Samson Major --- On Thu, 11/3/10, Mwangi Wamae <mwangi.wamae@gmail.com> wrote: From: Mwangi Wamae <mwangi.wamae@gmail.com> Subject: Re: [kictanet] GAY HATING WEBSITE (HATING KENYAN GAYS) To: esmainah@yahoo.com Cc: "KICTAnet ICT Policy Discussions" <kictanet@lists.kictanet.or.ke> Date: Thursday, 11 March, 2010, 15:41 All: I do not think that calling attention to such sites serves anyone's interests but those behind the site. Even if you contact GoDaddy the people behind it can be up and running within hours. In the age of the Internet, censorship does not work. Sites like that generally hang around unnoticed unless there is a lawsuit or a challenge that brings attention to them. It is called the "Streisand Effect": The Streisand effect is a primarily online phenomenon in which an attempt to censor or remove a piece of information has the unintended consequence of causing the information to be publicized widely and to a greater extent than would have occurred if no censorship had been attempted. BTW I looked at the front page of the site, and with the exception of the naming of individuals, I did not see anything that would unduly worry me. Calling people to rally (peacefully) behind a cause is the essence of democracy and free speech. I suggest we let such sites wither away in oblivion. My $0.02 -Mw On Thu, Mar 11, 2010 at 6:15 PM, Janet Feldman <kaippg@earthlink.net> wrote: Dear Wainaina and All, Hello and good to see you posting. I think we are all concerned about the recurrence of possible violence and of the growing intolerance that we are reading about and seeing in Kenya. That issue is directly linked in some ways to the kinds of intolerance, hatred and violence exhibited by the folks who have set up this site we are discussing. Insert the word "Luo" or "Kikuyu" instead of "gay", and you might find that some people would agree exactly with what is being said. "Down with Luos", or "down with Kikuyus"..."they are not like us, they are (insert a pejorative), they are different." Sometimes it is not too far a step to then say: "these people are different, they don't deserve to live." I'm not clear what you are saying in your first paragraph: are you saying that anyone who wants to exhibit any kind of behavior, and use the media to do it, should be allowed to do so? "Hate-radio" in Rwanda has been linked directly to the genocide there: while the issues and problems that brought about that terrible situation went way beyond the use of media to foment violence, one of the main conclusions that many analysts have made in the aftermath of that tragedy is that those particular stations should have been shut down. There are standards for licensing of stations, and those do include some of what one would call "ethics" and "public responsibility." Yahoogroups and Googlegroups have some guidelines, too, for responsible behaviors in the forum context. The very kinds of things said on that site, if said in a public forum, could shut that forum down, or at least get the individual uttering them expelled from use of those groups. I do think we need to be careful about the use of that method, but in certain circumstances--especially where lives might be at stake--it does seem appropriate to consider same. If one is worried about the stoking of violence--in Kenya or elsewhere--and there are media outlets doing just that, which is irresponsible in the extreme for a media source catering to "the public", then taking away their ability to keep operating does not seem too drastic, in fact, it seems essential. Thanks and best wishes, Janet -----Original Message----- From: Wainaina Mungai Sent: Mar 11, 2010 5:15 PM To: Janet Feldman Cc: KICTAnet ICT Policy Discussions Subject: Re: [kictanet] GAY HATING WEBSITE (HATING KENYAN GAYS) 1. Since the recommended solution seems to be to "shut down" such channels conveying "hate speech"; should I expect that we would also shut down the offending vernacular FM radio stations in Kenya (re; 2007/8 PEV) whose utterances/actions contributed to hundreds of thousands of Kenyans becoming internal refugees after the 2007 elections? And we haven't counted the thousands who died. When do we shut down the radio/TV stations?? 2. A more important issue for Kenya is the emerging evidence that the hate that tore this nation apart in 2007/8 is simmering in several provinces as tribes acquire weapons in the event violence recurs. WM On Thu, Mar 11, 2010 at 11:41 PM, Janet Feldman <kaippg@earthlink.net> wrote: Dear Grace and All, Hello and thanks for alerting us to this terrible site...ironic that they call others filthy! I am going to alert GoDaddy, where I have a website, and also Facebook and other venues about this site. I'm sure they have some policies on the promotion of hate speech and on fomenting of hatred, so I hope they will be able to shut down this one. Even if not, we can at least remain alert to all forms of violence, hatred, and discrimination with what you have posted, and know what this kind of response leads to...just the very violence and hatred that rocked Kenya in 2008, when a combination of political/economic and social/ethnic factors threatened to tear the country apart. With immense appreciation for your caring and concern, and blessings to all, Janet -----Original Message----- From: Grace Bomu Sent: Mar 11, 2010 7:14 AM To: kaippg@earthlink.net Cc: KICTAnet ICT Policy Discussions Subject: [kictanet] GAY HATING WEBSITE (HATING KENYAN GAYS) Hi all, The website below is promoting a hate culture at a time when the issue of gays, personal laws in the Bill of rights/constitutional making is very hot. Are we using media to promote bias like we did in 2007 and is there any intervention that the Government or anyone can take? I appreciate that the site is not registered in Kenya but the information is circulating in Kenya....and it could be a forerunner to the kind of e-hate campaigns we could see come another election/referendum. http://www.projectsee.com/ Domain Name: PROJECTSEE.COM Registrar: GODADDY.COM, INC. Whois Server: whois.godaddy.com Referral URL: http://registrar.godaddy.com Name Server: NS13.DOMAINCONTROL.COM Name Server: NS14.DOMAINCONTROL.COM Status: clientDeleteProhibited Status: clientRenewProhibited Status: clientTransferProhibited Status: clientUpdateProhibited Updated Date: 14-nov-2009 Creation Date: 14-nov-2009 Expiration Date: 14-nov-2010 -- Grace L.N. Mutung'u (Bomu) +254721898732 +254736091242 Kenya _______________________________________________ kictanet mailing list kictanet@lists.kictanet.or.ke http://lists.kictanet.or.ke/mailman/listinfo/kictanet This message was sent to: wainaina.mungai@gmail.com Unsubscribe or change your options at http://lists.kictanet.or.ke/mailman/options/kictanet/wainaina.mungai%40gmail... -- --- http://www.bungesms.com http://www.madeinkenya.org http://www.wainainamungai.com _______________________________________________ kictanet mailing list kictanet@lists.kictanet.or.ke http://lists.kictanet.or.ke/mailman/listinfo/kictanet This message was sent to: mwangi.wamae@gmail.com Unsubscribe or change your options at http://lists.kictanet.or.ke/mailman/options/kictanet/mwangi.wamae%40gmail.co... -----Inline Attachment Follows----- _______________________________________________ kictanet mailing list kictanet@lists.kictanet.or.ke http://lists.kictanet.or.ke/mailman/listinfo/kictanet This message was sent to: esmainah@yahoo.com Unsubscribe or change your options at http://lists.kictanet.or.ke/mailman/options/kictanet/esmainah%40yahoo.com
Mwangi, If you read the content of the posters, they call for killing of the people on the posters! Secondly, these people are private citizens who have not given themselves up to, say, elected leadership, and therefore have a right to privacy. The fact that they call for killing of others is inciting and against humanity. Janet, Thank you very much for the intervention. Although there are jurisdiction issues as Walu points out, someone has to do something, despite the odds. Let us debate and enjoy our freedom of speech responsibly! Great day. On 12 March 2010 02:41, Mwangi Wamae <mwangi.wamae@gmail.com> wrote:
All:
I do not think that calling attention to such sites serves anyone's interests but those behind the site. Even if you contact GoDaddy the people behind it can be up and running within hours. In the age of the Internet, censorship does not work.
Sites like that generally hang around unnoticed unless there is a lawsuit or a challenge that brings attention to them. It is called the "Streisand Effect <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Streisand_effect>":
The Streisand effect is a primarily online phenomenon in which an attempt
to censor or remove a piece of information has the unintended consequence of causing the information to be publicized widely and to a greater extent than would have occurred if no censorship had been attempted.
BTW I looked at the front page of the site, and with the exception of the naming of individuals, I did not see anything that would unduly worry me. Calling people to rally (peacefully) behind a cause is the essence of democracy and free speech.
I suggest we let such sites wither away in oblivion.
My $0.02
-Mw
On Thu, Mar 11, 2010 at 6:15 PM, Janet Feldman <kaippg@earthlink.net>wrote:
Dear Wainaina and All,
Hello and good to see you posting. I think we are all concerned about the recurrence of possible violence and of the growing intolerance that we are reading about and seeing in Kenya.
That issue is directly linked in some ways to the kinds of intolerance, hatred and violence exhibited by the folks who have set up this site we are discussing. Insert the word "Luo" or "Kikuyu" instead of "gay", and you might find that some people would agree exactly with what is being said. "Down with Luos", or "down with Kikuyus"..."they are not like us, they are (insert a pejorative), they are different." Sometimes it is not too far a step to then say: "these people are different, they don't deserve to live."
I'm not clear what you are saying in your first paragraph: are you saying that anyone who wants to exhibit any kind of behavior, and use the media to do it, should be allowed to do so? "Hate-radio" in Rwanda has been linked directly to the genocide there: while the issues and problems that brought about that terrible situation went way beyond the use of media to foment violence, one of the main conclusions that many analysts have made in the aftermath of that tragedy is that those particular stations should have been shut down.
There are standards for licensing of stations, and those do include some of what one would call "ethics" and "public responsibility." Yahoogroups and Googlegroups have some guidelines, too, for responsible behaviors in the forum context. The very kinds of things said on that site, if said in a public forum, could shut that forum down, or at least get the individual uttering them expelled from use of those groups.
I do think we need to be careful about the use of that method, but in certain circumstances--especially where lives might be at stake--it does seem appropriate to consider same. If one is worried about the stoking of violence--in Kenya or elsewhere--and there are media outlets doing just that, which is irresponsible in the extreme for a media source catering to "the public", then taking away their ability to keep operating does not seem too drastic, in fact, it seems essential.
Thanks and best wishes, Janet
-----Original Message----- From: Wainaina Mungai Sent: Mar 11, 2010 5:15 PM To: Janet Feldman Cc: KICTAnet ICT Policy Discussions Subject: Re: [kictanet] GAY HATING WEBSITE (HATING KENYAN GAYS)
1. Since the recommended solution seems to be to "shut down" such channels conveying "hate speech"; should I expect that we would also shut down the offending vernacular FM radio stations in Kenya (re; 2007/8 PEV) whose utterances/actions contributed to hundreds of thousands of Kenyans becoming internal refugees after the 2007 elections? And we haven't counted the thousands who died. When do we shut down the radio/TV stations??
2. A more important issue for Kenya is the emerging evidence that the hate that tore this nation apart in 2007/8 is simmering in several provinces as tribes acquire weapons in the event violence recurs. * * WM
On Thu, Mar 11, 2010 at 11:41 PM, Janet Feldman <kaippg@earthlink.net>wrote:
Dear Grace and All,
Hello and thanks for alerting us to this terrible site...ironic that they call others filthy!
I am going to alert GoDaddy, where I have a website, and also Facebook and other venues about this site. I'm sure they have some policies on the promotion of hate speech and on fomenting of hatred, so I hope they will be able to shut down this one.
Even if not, we can at least remain alert to all forms of violence, hatred, and discrimination with what you have posted, and know what this kind of response leads to...just the very violence and hatred that rocked Kenya in 2008, when a combination of political/economic and social/ethnic factors threatened to tear the country apart.
With immense appreciation for your caring and concern, and blessings to all, Janet
-----Original Message----- From: Grace Bomu Sent: Mar 11, 2010 7:14 AM To: kaippg@earthlink.net Cc: KICTAnet ICT Policy Discussions Subject: [kictanet] GAY HATING WEBSITE (HATING KENYAN GAYS)
Hi all, The website below is promoting a hate culture at a time when the issue of gays, personal laws in the Bill of rights/constitutional making is very hot. Are we using media to promote bias like we did in 2007 and is there any intervention that the Government or anyone can take? I appreciate that the site is not registered in Kenya but the information is circulating in Kenya....and it could be a forerunner to the kind of e-hate campaigns we could see come another election/referendum.
http://www.projectsee.com/ Domain Name: PROJECTSEE.COM <http://projectsee.com/> Registrar: GODADDY.COM <http://godaddy.com/>, INC. Whois Server: whois.godaddy.com Referral URL: http://registrar.godaddy.com Name Server: NS13.DOMAINCONTROL.COM <http://ns13.domaincontrol.com/> Name Server: NS14.DOMAINCONTROL.COM <http://ns14.domaincontrol.com/> Status: clientDeleteProhibited Status: clientRenewProhibited Status: clientTransferProhibited Status: clientUpdateProhibited Updated Date: 14-nov-2009 Creation Date: 14-nov-2009 Expiration Date: 14-nov-2010
-- Grace L.N. Mutung'u (Bomu) +254721898732 +254736091242 Kenya
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-- --- http://www.bungesms.com http://www.madeinkenya.org http://www.wainainamungai.com
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-- Grace L.N. Mutung'u (Bomu) +254721898732 +254736091242 Kenya
Grace, You are a lawyer, sue them! Seriously, lawsuits terrify US registries and registrars. It seems the threat of a lawsuit MAY result in the takedown of this site. http://www.godaddy.com/gdshop/agreements.asp?ci=8924 "Go Daddy reserves the right to terminate Services if Your usage of the Services results in, or is the subject of, legal action or threatened legal action, against Go Daddy or any of its affiliates or partners, without consideration for whether such legal action or threatened legal action is eventually determined to be with or without merit." You should do a whois first tho at: http://who.godaddy.com/whoischeck.aspx?ci=8926 then you will see who is responsible for the content. -- Cheers, McTim "A name indicates what we seek. An address indicates where it is. A route indicates how we get there." Jon Postel On Fri, Mar 12, 2010 at 9:43 AM, Grace Bomu <nmutungu@gmail.com> wrote:
Mwangi, If you read the content of the posters, they call for killing of the people on the posters! Secondly, these people are private citizens who have not given themselves up to, say, elected leadership, and therefore have a right to privacy. The fact that they call for killing of others is inciting and against humanity.
Janet, Thank you very much for the intervention. Although there are jurisdiction issues as Walu points out, someone has to do something, despite the odds.
Let us debate and enjoy our freedom of speech responsibly!
Great day.
On 12 March 2010 02:41, Mwangi Wamae <mwangi.wamae@gmail.com> wrote:
All: I do not think that calling attention to such sites serves anyone's interests but those behind the site. Even if you contact GoDaddy the people behind it can be up and running within hours. In the age of the Internet, censorship does not work. Sites like that generally hang around unnoticed unless there is a lawsuit or a challenge that brings attention to them. It is called the "Streisand Effect":
The Streisand effect is a primarily online phenomenon in which an attempt to censor or remove a piece of information has the unintended consequence of causing the information to be publicized widely and to a greater extent than would have occurred if no censorship had been attempted.
BTW I looked at the front page of the site, and with the exception of the naming of individuals, I did not see anything that would unduly worry me. Calling people to rally (peacefully) behind a cause is the essence of democracy and free speech. I suggest we let such sites wither away in oblivion. My $0.02 -Mw
On Thu, Mar 11, 2010 at 6:15 PM, Janet Feldman <kaippg@earthlink.net> wrote:
Dear Wainaina and All,
Hello and good to see you posting. I think we are all concerned about the recurrence of possible violence and of the growing intolerance that we are reading about and seeing in Kenya.
That issue is directly linked in some ways to the kinds of intolerance, hatred and violence exhibited by the folks who have set up this site we are discussing. Insert the word "Luo" or "Kikuyu" instead of "gay", and you might find that some people would agree exactly with what is being said. "Down with Luos", or "down with Kikuyus"..."they are not like us, they are (insert a pejorative), they are different." Sometimes it is not too far a step to then say: "these people are different, they don't deserve to live."
I'm not clear what you are saying in your first paragraph: are you saying that anyone who wants to exhibit any kind of behavior, and use the media to do it, should be allowed to do so? "Hate-radio" in Rwanda has been linked directly to the genocide there: while the issues and problems that brought about that terrible situation went way beyond the use of media to foment violence, one of the main conclusions that many analysts have made in the aftermath of that tragedy is that those particular stations should have been shut down.
There are standards for licensing of stations, and those do include some of what one would call "ethics" and "public responsibility." Yahoogroups and Googlegroups have some guidelines, too, for responsible behaviors in the forum context. The very kinds of things said on that site, if said in a public forum, could shut that forum down, or at least get the individual uttering them expelled from use of those groups.
I do think we need to be careful about the use of that method, but in certain circumstances--especially where lives might be at stake--it does seem appropriate to consider same. If one is worried about the stoking of violence--in Kenya or elsewhere--and there are media outlets doing just that, which is irresponsible in the extreme for a media source catering to "the public", then taking away their ability to keep operating does not seem too drastic, in fact, it seems essential.
Thanks and best wishes, Janet
-----Original Message----- From: Wainaina Mungai Sent: Mar 11, 2010 5:15 PM To: Janet Feldman Cc: KICTAnet ICT Policy Discussions Subject: Re: [kictanet] GAY HATING WEBSITE (HATING KENYAN GAYS)
1. Since the recommended solution seems to be to "shut down" such channels conveying "hate speech"; should I expect that we would also shut down the offending vernacular FM radio stations in Kenya (re; 2007/8 PEV) whose utterances/actions contributed to hundreds of thousands of Kenyans becoming internal refugees after the 2007 elections? And we haven't counted the thousands who died. When do we shut down the radio/TV stations?? 2. A more important issue for Kenya is the emerging evidence that the hate that tore this nation apart in 2007/8 is simmering in several provinces as tribes acquire weapons in the event violence recurs. WM
On Thu, Mar 11, 2010 at 11:41 PM, Janet Feldman <kaippg@earthlink.net> wrote:
Dear Grace and All,
Hello and thanks for alerting us to this terrible site...ironic that they call others filthy!
I am going to alert GoDaddy, where I have a website, and also Facebook and other venues about this site. I'm sure they have some policies on the promotion of hate speech and on fomenting of hatred, so I hope they will be able to shut down this one.
Even if not, we can at least remain alert to all forms of violence, hatred, and discrimination with what you have posted, and know what this kind of response leads to...just the very violence and hatred that rocked Kenya in 2008, when a combination of political/economic and social/ethnic factors threatened to tear the country apart.
With immense appreciation for your caring and concern, and blessings to all, Janet
-----Original Message----- From: Grace Bomu Sent: Mar 11, 2010 7:14 AM To: kaippg@earthlink.net Cc: KICTAnet ICT Policy Discussions Subject: [kictanet] GAY HATING WEBSITE (HATING KENYAN GAYS)
Hi all, The website below is promoting a hate culture at a time when the issue of gays, personal laws in the Bill of rights/constitutional making is very hot. Are we using media to promote bias like we did in 2007 and is there any intervention that the Government or anyone can take? I appreciate that the site is not registered in Kenya but the information is circulating in Kenya....and it could be a forerunner to the kind of e-hate campaigns we could see come another election/referendum.
http://www.projectsee.com/ Domain Name: PROJECTSEE.COM Registrar: GODADDY.COM, INC. Whois Server: whois.godaddy.com Referral URL: http://registrar.godaddy.com Name Server: NS13.DOMAINCONTROL.COM Name Server: NS14.DOMAINCONTROL.COM Status: clientDeleteProhibited Status: clientRenewProhibited Status: clientTransferProhibited Status: clientUpdateProhibited Updated Date: 14-nov-2009 Creation Date: 14-nov-2009 Expiration Date: 14-nov-2010
-- Grace L.N. Mutung'u (Bomu) +254721898732 +254736091242 Kenya
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-- --- http://www.bungesms.com http://www.madeinkenya.org http://www.wainainamungai.com
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participants (7)
-
Grace Bomu -
Janet Feldman -
Maina Samson -
McTim -
Mwangi Wamae -
Sam Gatere -
Walubengo J