Ladies and Gentlemen, How come most of the software systems Kenya gvnmt and related bodies purchase always cost 100s of millions if not a few billions? Like this one for KPA: http://www.bdafrica.com/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=8383&Itemid=5860 This is not meant to hit anyone hard. I'm trying to see whether there is a better solution. So far this year I've heard of 3 systems: 1. KRA 2. Immigration 3. KPA. This KPA system costs a total of 450M, but the software bit is 200M. From the software features described I feel they could have got better value for their money. May be these systems really cost that much. May be there is someone in the list who can shed more light on these systems. BTW: To make this even more interesting various developers in the list can suggest a software solution component for each problem these systems solve, estimated development time and estimated cost. That way it's not just talking the talk but walking the walk. I'll take a shot: Case 1:
From the newspaper article, one of the port guys is quoted as saying: “One unique thing about the system is its capacity to capture data in real time. The moment a vehicle rolls out of a vessel, its data is captured. This makes it easier for us to track such cargo and containers as well," said Osero.
My take: Analysis: The machines which are costing 250M (It's 250M machines + 200M software = 450M entire system) have sensors that measure different qualities/properties of the item in the machine e.g. weight. These machines have an API to link them to a computer system. Using the API get the measured quantity and display/store in database etc. This isn't really the hardest thing to do as the manufactures of the 250M machines should provide documentation and support to the software developers. Estimated work force and time: 3 developers, 3-4 months. Cost: 200K * 3 developers * 4 months = 2.4M. + 20% (any other expenses) = 2.88M. Case 2: Another feature is keeping track/audit trails/ historical data. My take: Analysis: This is basically from: 1. Collection of good requirements from the port. 2. Designing the right architecture that fits the requirements. 3. Creating the right designs from the architecture. 4. Pass the designs to the programmers for implementation. 1-3 are Key and this is where the bulk of the money will go. Estimated work force and time: 3 system requirements/analysis collectors, 4 months. The actual time depends on how well KPA know the problems they are facing, and how well they can describe them. 3 system/software architects, 3 months. 4 system/software designers, 5 months. Cost: (Requirements) 100K * 3 * 4 = 1.2M+20% = 1.44M (Architecture) 350K * 3 * 3 = 3.15M+20% = 3.78M (Design) 250K * 4 * 5 = 5M+20% = 6M. So far the total is 14.1 M. And these are some of the most important roles. Even with 15 programmers @ 100K for 12 months (+20%) = 21.6M for a current toral of 35.7M. OK I'll stop there. I'm not writting a report. Feel free to correct me. I could be very wrong.
Wesley, you are absolutely correct on developing local solutions. Local developers can do an equally or even better design, implementation and sustain long term support of the systems. Outsourcing of technology, software and solutions will lead to loss of jobs, revenue, oppurtunity and growth for kenyans in the ICT sector. The ICT software development community is a strong selling point for Kenya. Would it be possible for ICT policy makers to integrate the development community in its visions, plans and strategies ? This would be a great start and would lay the foundations of understanding and promoting local potential to even the sponsors/loaners/financiers of such projects With Rgds. Aki.
On Wed, Jun 25, 2008 at 9:56 AM, wesley kiriinya <kiriinya2000@yahoo.com> wrote:
Ladies and Gentlemen,
How come most of the software systems Kenya gvnmt and related bodies purchase always cost 100s of millions if not a few billions? Like this one for KPA: http://www.bdafrica.com/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=8383&Itemid=5860
This is not meant to hit anyone hard. I'm trying to see whether there is a better solution.
So far this year I've heard of 3 systems: 1. KRA 2. Immigration 3. KPA.
This KPA system costs a total of 450M, but the software bit is 200M. From the software features described I feel they could have got better value for their money.
May be these systems really cost that much. May be there is someone in the list who can shed more light on these systems.
BTW: To make this even more interesting various developers in the list can suggest a software solution component for each problem these systems solve, estimated development time and estimated cost. That way it's not just talking the talk but walking the walk.
I'll take a shot: Case 1: From the newspaper article, one of the port guys is quoted as saying: "One unique thing about the system is its capacity to capture data in real time. The moment a vehicle rolls out of a vessel, its data is captured. This makes it easier for us to track such cargo and containers as well," said Osero.
My take: Analysis: The machines which are costing 250M (It's 250M machines + 200M software = 450M entire system) have sensors that measure different qualities/properties of the item in the machine e.g. weight. These machines have an API to link them to a computer system. Using the API get the measured quantity and display/store in database etc. This isn't really the hardest thing to do as the manufactures of the 250M machines should provide documentation and support to the software developers.
Estimated work force and time: 3 developers, 3-4 months.
Cost: 200K * 3 developers * 4 months = 2.4M. + 20% (any other expenses) = 2.88M.
Case 2: Another feature is keeping track/audit trails/ historical data.
My take: Analysis: This is basically from: 1. Collection of good requirements from the port. 2. Designing the right architecture that fits the requirements. 3. Creating the right designs from the architecture. 4. Pass the designs to the programmers for implementation.
1-3 are Key and this is where the bulk of the money will go.
Estimated work force and time: 3 system requirements/analysis collectors, 4 months. The actual time depends on how well KPA know the problems they are facing, and how well they can describe them. 3 system/software architects, 3 months. 4 system/software designers, 5 months.
Cost: (Requirements) 100K * 3 * 4 = 1.2M+20% = 1.44M (Architecture) 350K * 3 * 3 = 3.15M+20% = 3.78M (Design) 250K * 4 * 5 = 5M+20% = 6M.
So far the total is 14.1 M. And these are some of the most important roles. Even with 15 programmers @ 100K for 12 months (+20%) = 21.6M for a current toral of 35.7M.
OK I'll stop there. I'm not writting a report. Feel free to correct me. I could be very wrong.
Hello Kiriinya, This is a very interesting analysis and I'm compelled to agree with you as regards the cost factors. However, the implementation process doesn't seem to be that straight, and might not be for some time. Hey, I am not being the govt spokesman on these matters but nothing is so secret about it. I do believe that tenders were invited for such implementations but I don't know the details. I am only assuming it's the norm. If any studies were carried out regarding the system requirements, then only the IT Directors within those organizations can tell. Perhaps it's time such information is made public via some govt publication (those organizations are parastatals). I am not familiar with govt procurement procedures but the last time I read anything about it, it was a whole lot of a mess so you don't expect to see any level of transparency in that. Those are some of the things the coalition govt is supposed to be addressing, IIRC. But even if you expressed interest in undertake such a project, I wonder how much the organizations would be willing to let you in on their operations. So the first question is: Did they give the organization that won the tender the access into their operations in order to understand their needs? I don't think so. Perhaps they just "borrowed" from an organization that had done it for someone else and customized! In such a case, no one cares to do the calculations as you have done. They simply get a quote, "negotiate" and buy. I believe this explains why the costs are as high as they are. -- Best regards, Odhiambo WASHINGTON, Nairobi,KE +254733744121/+254722743223 _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ "Oh My God! They killed init! You Bastards!" --from a /. post
Wesley & Washington, Very legitimate points raised. Allow me to share a real life experience. While at KPC, we came across two very interesting scenarios. When developing the Corporate ICT Strategy, we shopped around and gathered that possibly only 2 other 'Class A' parastatals and a handful of large private corporations had developed their ICT strategies. In a number of cases for multi-nationals, their strategies had largely been developed from parent organizations overseas. For the 2 local firms (and 1 large MNC), they had spent about KShs 300m to develop their strategies. In the case of KPC, it was done by locals (Kenyans), and it cost in total just under KShs 15m (10m to 'experts' + overheads + taxes). Yet for those who may be in the know, at the time (2004/05), the KPC ICT Strategy was like an ad-hoc standard (the way the Rwandan ICT Masterplan is to some!). Not only did a number of other strategic parastatals go the same route/or borrow an idea or two from it; at the time, some sections of COMESA and NEPAD were considering it for a 'regional template'. Am not belabouring on this to show how excellent it was, but to give comfort that it was as good - if not better - than those which were developed at 20x its cost - and by locals. At inception, we had a dilemma because we would not have found any local experts with experience in this sector - since KPC was/is perhaps the only refined petroleum pipeline company in the region - so to find 'local experts' who had developed similar strategies was almost out of question. However, Management & Board recognized that there were discrete skills which could be put together to get something close to the desired whole/ideal: there were people who had developed strategies for large corporations (public and/or private), oil companies (the distributors), energy companies (e.g. SCADA is a backbone to all large-scale energy 'transporters', including KPC and KP&LC), etc. So, we went out looking for what at the time were considered to be some of the best within Govt, industry (private sector), academia, and civil society (in this case not the NGO Council, but professional associations), etc. In all, we ended up with a team of 15, some of them subscribers on this list. And they did a fantastic job. Scenario 2: just as the team was winding down, the SCADA system broke down. This wasn't the first time for the system to go done; it had done so a few times before. From info available, whenever this had happened before, we had to turn to a major international firm in this sector domiciled in Canada. Firstly, they would take at least two weeks to arrive to work on the problem. Secondly, every time they came the Corporation would pay KShs 10m minimum, minus overheads (air-fare, hotel accommodation, etc). In this instance, when the ICT-Strategy team was asked if they could work on it, 3 among them came forward to do so. Within 4 days, yes 4 days, the system was up and running, and it cost the Corporation only KShs 700k (inclusive of overheads)! Apart from the money and time saving, we had enabled ‘technology transfer/acquisition’, and if need be, in future, there was local expertise that would be called upon. In a nutshell, I wouldn't be surprised if we spent 20x more on ICT products and services than is really necessary - especially for the ultra-large projects. ICT development and promotion is not only attractive in the wealth, jobs, efficiency and productivity it creates, but also in the expenses/costs it saves. Would be interesting to know how much as a country we spend to 'import technology' versus what we would need to spend on developing skills that would help us avoid importing some (of course not all) those technologies. Best rgrds, Shem --- On Wed, 6/25/08, Odhiambo Washington <odhiambo@gmail.com> wrote: From: Odhiambo Washington <odhiambo@gmail.com> Subject: Re: [kictanet] Expensive software systems? To: "Shem Ochuodho" <shemochuodho@yahoo.com> Cc: "KICTAnet ICT Policy Discussions" <kictanet@lists.kictanet.or.ke> Date: Wednesday, June 25, 2008, 4:20 AM On Wed, Jun 25, 2008 at 9:56 AM, wesley kiriinya <kiriinya2000@yahoo.com> wrote:
Ladies and Gentlemen,
How come most of the software systems Kenya gvnmt and related bodies purchase always cost 100s of millions if not a few billions? Like this one for KPA:
http://www.bdafrica.com/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=8383&Itemid=5860
This is not meant to hit anyone hard. I'm trying to see whether there
better solution.
So far this year I've heard of 3 systems: 1. KRA 2. Immigration 3. KPA.
This KPA system costs a total of 450M, but the software bit is 200M. From the software features described I feel they could have got better value for their money.
May be these systems really cost that much. May be there is someone in the list who can shed more light on these systems.
BTW: To make this even more interesting various developers in the list can suggest a software solution component for each problem these systems solve, estimated development time and estimated cost. That way it's not just talking the talk but walking the walk.
I'll take a shot: Case 1: From the newspaper article, one of the port guys is quoted as saying: "One unique thing about the system is its capacity to capture data in real time. The moment a vehicle rolls out of a vessel, its data is captured. This makes it easier for us to track such cargo and containers as well," said Osero.
My take: Analysis: The machines which are costing 250M (It's 250M machines + 200M software = 450M entire system) have sensors that measure different qualities/properties of the item in the machine e.g. weight. These machines have an API to link them to a computer system. Using the API get the measured quantity and display/store in database etc. This isn't really
hardest thing to do as the manufactures of the 250M machines should
is a the provide
documentation and support to the software developers.
Estimated work force and time: 3 developers, 3-4 months.
Cost: 200K * 3 developers * 4 months = 2.4M. + 20% (any other expenses) = 2.88M.
Case 2: Another feature is keeping track/audit trails/ historical data.
My take: Analysis: This is basically from: 1. Collection of good requirements from the port. 2. Designing the right architecture that fits the requirements. 3. Creating the right designs from the architecture. 4. Pass the designs to the programmers for implementation.
1-3 are Key and this is where the bulk of the money will go.
Estimated work force and time: 3 system requirements/analysis collectors, 4 months. The actual time depends on how well KPA know the problems they are facing, and how well they can describe them. 3 system/software architects, 3 months. 4 system/software designers, 5 months.
Cost: (Requirements) 100K * 3 * 4 = 1.2M+20% = 1.44M (Architecture) 350K * 3 * 3 = 3.15M+20% = 3.78M (Design) 250K * 4 * 5 = 5M+20% = 6M.
So far the total is 14.1 M. And these are some of the most important roles. Even with 15 programmers @ 100K for 12 months (+20%) = 21.6M for a current toral of 35.7M.
OK I'll stop there. I'm not writting a report. Feel free to correct me. I could be very wrong.
Hello Kiriinya, This is a very interesting analysis and I'm compelled to agree with you as regards the cost factors. However, the implementation process doesn't seem to be that straight, and might not be for some time. Hey, I am not being the govt spokesman on these matters but nothing is so secret about it. I do believe that tenders were invited for such implementations but I don't know the details. I am only assuming it's the norm. If any studies were carried out regarding the system requirements, then only the IT Directors within those organizations can tell. Perhaps it's time such information is made public via some govt publication (those organizations are parastatals). I am not familiar with govt procurement procedures but the last time I read anything about it, it was a whole lot of a mess so you don't expect to see any level of transparency in that. Those are some of the things the coalition govt is supposed to be addressing, IIRC. But even if you expressed interest in undertake such a project, I wonder how much the organizations would be willing to let you in on their operations. So the first question is: Did they give the organization that won the tender the access into their operations in order to understand their needs? I don't think so. Perhaps they just "borrowed" from an organization that had done it for someone else and customized! In such a case, no one cares to do the calculations as you have done. They simply get a quote, "negotiate" and buy. I believe this explains why the costs are as high as they are. -- Best regards, Odhiambo WASHINGTON, Nairobi,KE +254733744121/+254722743223 _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ "Oh My God! They killed init! You Bastards!" --from a /. post _______________________________________________ kictanet mailing list kictanet@lists.kictanet.or.ke http://lists.kictanet.or.ke/mailman/listinfo/kictanet This message was sent to: shemochuodho@yahoo.com Unsubscribe or change your options at http://lists.kictanet.or.ke/mailman/options/kictanet/shemochuodho%40yahoo.co...
I have two questions: 1. Do we have locally done large scale ERPs in the market that compares with SAP, Navision, BAAN, Oracle Financials? 2. How well tested are they? For such a large and mission critical system testing skills and the cost of testing is critical on final cost. Leonard Shem Ochuodho <shemochuodho@yahoo.com> wrote: Wesley & Washington, Very legitimate points raised. Allow me to share a real life experience. While at KPC, we came across two very interesting scenarios. When developing the Corporate ICT Strategy, we shopped around and gathered that possibly only 2 other 'Class A' parastatals and a handful of large private corporations had developed their ICT strategies. In a number of cases for multi-nationals, their strategies had largely been developed from parent organizations overseas. For the 2 local firms (and 1 large MNC), they had spent about KShs 300m to develop their strategies. In the case of KPC, it was done by locals (Kenyans), and it cost in total just under KShs 15m (10m to 'experts' + overheads + taxes). Yet for those who may be in the know, at the time (2004/05), the KPC ICT Strategy was like an ad-hoc standard (the way the Rwandan ICT Masterplan is to some!). Not only did a number of other strategic parastatals go the same route/or borrow an idea or two from it; at the time, some sections of COMESA and NEPAD were considering it for a 'regional template'. Am not belabouring on this to show how excellent it was, but to give comfort that it was as good - if not better - than those which were developed at 20x its cost - and by locals. At inception, we had a dilemma because we would not have found any local experts with experience in this sector - since KPC was/is perhaps the only refined petroleum pipeline company in the region - so to find 'local experts' who had developed similar strategies was almost out of question. However, Management & Board recognized that there were discrete skills which could be put together to get something close to the desired whole/ideal: there were people who had developed strategies for large corporations (public and/or private), oil companies (the distributors), energy companies (e.g. SCADA is a backbone to all large-scale energy 'transporters', including KPC and KP&LC), etc. So, we went out looking for what at the time were considered to be some of the best within Govt, industry (private sector), academia, and civil society (in this case not the NGO Council, but professional associations), etc. In all, we ended up with a team of 15, some of them subscribers on this list. And they did a fantastic job. Scenario 2: just as the team was winding down, the SCADA system broke down. This wasn't the first time for the system to go done; it had done so a few times before. From info available, whenever this had happened before, we had to turn to a major international firm in this sector domiciled in Canada. Firstly, they would take at least two weeks to arrive to work on the problem. Secondly, every time they came the Corporation would pay KShs 10m minimum, minus overheads (air-fare, hotel accommodation, etc). In this instance, when the ICT-Strategy team was asked if they could work on it, 3 among them came forward to do so. Within 4 days, yes 4 days, the system was up and running, and it cost the Corporation only KShs 700k (inclusive of overheads)! Apart from the money and time saving, we had enabled ¡technology transfer/acquisition¢, and if need be, in future, there was local expertise that would be called upon. In a nutshell, I wouldn't be surprised if we spent 20x more on ICT products and services than is really necessary - especially for the ultra-large projects. ICT development and promotion is not only attractive in the wealth, jobs, efficiency and productivity it creates, but also in the expenses/costs it saves. Would be interesting to know how much as a country we spend to 'import technology' versus what we would need to spend on developing skills that would help us avoid importing some (of course not all) those technologies. Best rgrds, Shem --- On Wed, 6/25/08, Odhiambo Washington <odhiambo@gmail.com> wrote: From: Odhiambo Washington <odhiambo@gmail.com> Subject: Re: [kictanet] Expensive software systems? To: "Shem Ochuodho" <shemochuodho@yahoo.com> Cc: "KICTAnet ICT Policy Discussions" <kictanet@lists.kictanet.or.ke> Date: Wednesday, June 25, 2008, 4:20 AM On Wed, Jun 25, 2008 at 9:56 AM, wesley kiriinya <kiriinya2000@yahoo.com> wrote: > Ladies and Gentlemen, > > How come most of the software systems Kenya gvnmt and related bodies > purchase always cost 100s of millions if not a few billions? > Like this one for KPA: > http://www.bdafrica.com/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=8383&Itemid=5860 > > This is not meant to hit anyone hard. I'm trying to see whether there is a > better solution. > > So far this year I've heard of 3 systems: > 1. KRA > 2. Immigration > 3. KPA. > > This KPA system costs a total of 450M, but the software bit is 200M. From > the software features described I feel they could have got better value for > their money. > > May be these systems really cost that much. May be there is someone in the > list who can shed more light on these systems. > > BTW: To make this even more interesting various developers in the list can > suggest a software solution component for each problem these systems solve, > estimated development time and estimated cost. That way it's not just > talking the talk but walking the walk. > > I'll take a shot: > Case 1: > From the newspaper article, one of the port guys is quoted as saying: > "One unique thing about the system is its capacity to capture data in real > time. The moment a vehicle rolls out of a vessel, its data is captured. This > makes it easier for us to track such cargo and containers as well," said > Osero. > > My take: > Analysis: The machines which are costing 250M (It's 250M machines + 200M > software = 450M entire system) have sensors that measure different > qualities/properties of the item in the machine e.g. weight. These machines > have an API to link them to a computer system. Using the API get the > measured quantity and display/store in database etc. This isn't really the > hardest thing to do as the manufactures of the 250M machines should provide > documentation and support to the software developers. > > Estimated work force and time: 3 developers, 3-4 months. > > Cost: 200K * 3 developers * 4 months = 2.4M. + 20% (any other expenses) = > 2.88M. > > Case 2: > Another feature is keeping track/audit trails/ historical data. > > My take: > Analysis: This is basically from: > 1. Collection of good requirements from the port. > 2. Designing the right architecture that fits the requirements. > 3. Creating the right designs from the architecture. > 4. Pass the designs to the programmers for implementation. > > 1-3 are Key and this is where the bulk of the money will go. > > Estimated work force and time: 3 system requirements/analysis collectors, 4 > months. The actual time depends on how well KPA know the problems they are > facing, and how well they can describe them. > 3 system/software architects, > 3 months. > 4 system/software designers, 5 > months. > > Cost: (Requirements) 100K * 3 * 4 = 1.2M+20% = 1.44M > (Architecture) 350K * 3 * 3 = 3.15M+20% = 3.78M > (Design) 250K * 4 * 5 = 5M+20% = 6M. > > So far the total is 14.1 M. And these are some of the most important roles. > Even with 15 programmers @ 100K for 12 months (+20%) = 21.6M for a current > toral of 35.7M. > > OK I'll stop there. I'm not writting a report. Feel free to correct me. I > could be very wrong. Hello Kiriinya, This is a very interesting analysis and I'm compelled to agree with you as regards the cost factors. However, the implementation process doesn't seem to be that straight, and might not be for some time. Hey, I am not being the govt spokesman on these matters but nothing is so secret about it. I do believe that tenders were invited for such implementations but I don't know the details. I am only assuming it's the norm. If any studies were carried out regarding the system requirements, then only the IT Directors within those organizations can tell. Perhaps it's time such information is made public via some govt publication (those organizations are parastatals). I am not familiar with govt procurement procedures but the last time I read anything about it, it was a whole lot of a mess so you don't expect to see any level of transparency in that. Those are some of the things the coalition govt is supposed to be addressing, IIRC. But even if you expressed interest in undertake such a project, I wonder how much the organizations would be willing to let you in on their operations. So the first question is: Did they give the organization that won the tender the access into their operations in order to understand their needs? I don't think so. Perhaps they just "borrowed" from an organization that had done it for someone else and customized! In such a case, no one cares to do the calculations as you have done. They simply get a quote, "negotiate" and buy. I believe this explains why the costs are as high as they are. -- Best regards, Odhiambo WASHINGTON, Nairobi,KE +254733744121/+254722743223 _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ "Oh My God! They killed init! You Bastards!" --from a /. post _______________________________________________ kictanet mailing list kictanet@lists.kictanet.or.ke http://lists.kictanet.or.ke/mailman/listinfo/kictanet This message was sent to: shemochuodho@yahoo.com Unsubscribe or change your options at http://lists.kictanet.or.ke/mailman/options/kictanet/shemochuodho%40yahoo.co... _______________________________________________ kictanet mailing list kictanet@lists.kictanet.or.ke http://lists.kictanet.or.ke/mailman/listinfo/kictanet This message was sent to: mleonardo@yahoo.com Unsubscribe or change your options at http://lists.kictanet.or.ke/mailman/options/kictanet/mleonardo%40yahoo.com
The kind of software I'm refering to is not on the rank of SAP and Oracle. These are software built to use SAP, Oracle or other larger scale software. So let me break it down: 1. Level 1 Software: Operating systems, SAP, Oracle, MS SQL, ...: I don't propose that these can be done locally. 2. Level 2 Software: Software that integrates with the above. Usually shipped as libraries. It's sort of middle level software: This requires good skill and can be done locally on some scale. Infact it should be encouraged that it be done locally. 3. Level 3 Software: What the client actually interacts with. They can also be software utilities. They interact with the Level 2 Software: Can be done locally. This is probably the work outsourced to countries with cheapest labour that can do the work. --- On Wed, 6/25/08, Leonard Mware <mleonardo@yahoo.com> wrote: From: Leonard Mware <mleonardo@yahoo.com> Subject: Re: [kictanet] Expensive software systems? To: kiriinya2000@yahoo.com Cc: "New Vision List" <newvisionkenya@yahoogroups.com>, "KICTAnet ICT Policy Discussions" <kictanet@lists.kictanet.or.ke> Date: Wednesday, June 25, 2008, 4:40 PM I have two questions: 1. Do we have locally done large scale ERPs in the market that compares with SAP, Navision, BAAN, Oracle Financials? 2. How well tested are they? For such a large and mission critical system testing skills and the cost of testing is critical on final cost. Leonard Shem Ochuodho <shemochuodho@yahoo.com> wrote: Wesley & Washington, Very legitimate points raised. Allow me to share a real life experience. While at KPC, we came across two very interesting scenarios. When developing the Corporate ICT Strategy, we shopped around and gathered that possibly only 2 other 'Class A' parastatals and a handful of large private corporations had developed their ICT strategies. In a number of cases for multi-nationals, their strategies had largely been developed from parent organizations overseas. For the 2 local firms (and 1 large MNC), they had spent about KShs 300m to develop their strategies. In the case of KPC, it was done by locals (Kenyans), and it cost in total just under KShs 15m (10m to 'experts' + overheads + taxes). Yet for those who may be in the know, at the time (2004/05), the KPC ICT Strategy was like an ad-hoc standard (the way the Rwandan ICT Masterplan is to some!). Not only did a number of other strategic parastatals go the same route/or borrow an idea or two from it; at the time, some sections of COMESA and NEPAD were considering it for a 'regional template'. Am not belabouring on this to show how excellent it was, but to give comfort that it was as good - if not better - than those which were developed at 20x its cost - and by locals. At inception, we had a dilemma because we would not have found any local experts with experience in this sector - since KPC was/is perhaps the only refined petroleum pipeline company in the region - so to find 'local experts' who had developed similar strategies was almost out of question. However, Management & Board recognized that there were discrete skills which could be put together to get something close to the desired whole/ideal: there were people who had developed strategies for large corporations (public and/or private), oil companies (the distributors), energy companies (e.g. SCADA is a backbone to all large-scale energy 'transporters', including KPC and KP&LC), etc. So, we went out looking for what at the time were considered to be some of the best within Govt, industry (private sector), academia, and civil society (in this case not the NGO Council, but professional associations), etc. In all, we ended up with a team of 15, some of them subscribers on this list. And they did a fantastic job. Scenario 2: just as the team was winding down, the SCADA system broke down. This wasn't the first time for the system to go done; it had done so a few times before. From info available, whenever this had happened before, we had to turn to a major international firm in this sector domiciled in Canada. Firstly, they would take at least two weeks to arrive to work on the problem. Secondly, every time they came the Corporation would pay KShs 10m minimum, minus overheads (air-fare, hotel accommodation, etc). In this instance, when the ICT-Strategy team was asked if they could work on it, 3 among them came forward to do so. Within 4 days, yes 4 days, the system was up and running, and it cost the Corporation only KShs 700k (inclusive of overheads)! Apart from the money and time saving, we had enabled ¡technology transfer/acquisition¢, and if need be, in future, there was local expertise that would be called upon. In a nutshell, I wouldn't be surprised if we spent 20x more on ICT products and services than is really necessary - especially for the ultra-large projects. ICT development and promotion is not only attractive in the wealth, jobs, efficiency and productivity it creates, but also in the expenses/costs it saves. Would be interesting to know how much as a country we spend to 'import technology' versus what we would need to spend on developing skills that would help us avoid importing some (of course not all) those technologies. Best rgrds, Shem --- On Wed, 6/25/08, Odhiambo Washington <odhiambo@gmail.com> wrote: From: Odhiambo Washington <odhiambo@gmail.com> Subject: Re: [kictanet] Expensive software systems? To: "Shem Ochuodho" <shemochuodho@yahoo.com> Cc: "KICTAnet ICT Policy Discussions" <kictanet@lists.kictanet.or.ke> Date: Wednesday, June 25, 2008, 4:20 AM On Wed, Jun 25, 2008 at 9:56 AM, wesley kiriinya <kiriinya2000@yahoo.com> wrote: > Ladies and Gentlemen, > > How come most of the software systems Kenya gvnmt and related bodies > purchase always cost 100s of millions if not a few billions? > Like this one for KPA: > http://www.bdafrica.com/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=8383&Itemid=5860 > > This is not meant to hit anyone hard. I'm trying to see whether there is a > better solution. > > So far this year I've heard of 3 systems: > 1. KRA > 2. Immigration > 3. KPA. > > This KPA system costs a total of 450M, but the software bit is 200M. From > the software features described I feel they could have got better value for > their money. > > May be these systems really cost that much. May be there is someone in the > list who can shed more light on these systems. > > BTW: To make this even more interesting various developers in the list can > suggest a software solution component for each problem these systems solve, > estimated development time and estimated cost. That way it's not just > talking the talk but walking the walk. > > I'll take a shot: > Case 1: > From the newspaper article, one of the port guys is quoted as saying: > "One unique thing about the system is its capacity to capture data in real > time. The moment a vehicle rolls out of a vessel, its data is captured. This
makes it easier for us to track such cargo and containers as well," said > Osero. > > My take: > Analysis: The machines which are costing 250M (It's 250M machines + 200M > software = 450M entire system) have sensors that measure different > qualities/properties of the item in the machine e.g. weight. These machines > have an API to link them to a computer system. Using the API get the > measured quantity and display/store in database etc. This isn't really the > hardest thing to do as the manufactures of the 250M machines should provide > documentation and support to the software developers. > > Estimated work force and time: 3 developers, 3-4 months. > > Cost: 200K * 3 developers * 4 months = 2.4M. + 20% (any other expenses) = > 2.88M. > > Case 2: > Another feature is keeping track/audit trails/ historical data. > > My take: > Analysis: This is basically from: > 1. Collection of good requirements from the port. > 2. Designing the right architecture that fits the requirements. > 3. Creating the right designs from the architecture. > 4. Pass the designs to the programmers for implementation. > > 1-3 are Key and this is where the bulk of the money will go. > > Estimated work force and time: 3 system requirements/analysis collectors, 4 > months. The actual time depends on how well KPA know the problems they are > facing, and how well they can describe them. > 3 system/software architects, > 3 months. > 4 system/software designers, 5 > months. > > Cost: (Requirements) 100K * 3 * 4 = 1.2M+20% = 1.44M > (Architecture) 350K * 3 * 3 = 3.15M+20% = 3.78M > (Design) 250K * 4 * 5 = 5M+20% = 6M. > > So far the total is 14.1 M. And these are some of the most important roles. > Even with 15 programmers @ 100K for 12 months (+20%) = 21.6M for a current > toral of 35.7M. > > OK I'll stop there. I'm not writting a report. Feel free to correct me. I > could be very wrong. Hello Kiriinya, This is a very interesting analysis and I'm compelled to agree with you as regards the cost factors. However, the implementation process doesn't seem to be that straight, and might not be for some time. Hey, I am not being the govt spokesman on these matters but nothing is so secret about it. I do believe that tenders were invited for such implementations but I don't know the details. I am only assuming it's the norm. If any studies were carried out regarding the system requirements, then only the IT Directors within those organizations can tell. Perhaps it's time such information is made public via some govt publication (those organizations are parastatals). I am not familiar with govt procurement procedures but the last time I read anything about it, it was a whole lot of a mess so you don't expect to see any level of transparency in that. Those are some of the things the coalition govt is supposed to be addressing, IIRC. But even if you expressed interest in undertake such a project, I wonder how much the organizations would be willing to let you in on their operations. So the first question is: Did they give the organization that won the tender the access into their operations in order to understand their needs? I don't think so. Perhaps they just "borrowed" from an organization that had done it for someone else and customized! In such a case, no one cares to do the calculations as you have done. They simply get a quote, "negotiate" and buy. I believe this explains why the costs are as high as they are. -- Best regards, Odhiambo WASHINGTON, Nairobi,KE +254733744121/+254722743223 _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ "Oh My God! They killed init! You Bastards!" --from a /. post _______________________________________________ kictanet mailing list kictanet@lists.kictanet.or.ke http://lists.kictanet.or.ke/mailman/listinfo/kictanet This message was sent to: shemochuodho@yahoo.com Unsubscribe or change your options at http://lists.kictanet.or.ke/mailman/options/kictanet/shemochuodho%40yahoo.co...
kictanet mailing list kictanet@lists.kictanet.or.ke http://lists.kictanet.or.ke/mailman/listinfo/kictanet This message was sent to: mleonardo@yahoo.com Unsubscribe or change your options at http://lists.kictanet.or.ke/mailman/options/kictanet/mleonardo%40yahoo.com _______________________________________________ kictanet mailing list kictanet@lists.kictanet.or.ke http://lists.kictanet.or.ke/mailman/listinfo/kictanet This message was sent to: kiriinya2000@yahoo.com Unsubscribe or change your options at http://lists.kictanet.or.ke/mailman/options/kictanet/kiriinya2000%40yahoo.co...
So far this year I've heard of 3 systems: > 1. KRA > 2. Immigration > 3. KPA. > > This KPA system costs a total of 450M, but the software bit is 200M. From > the software features described I feel they could have got better value for > their money. > > May be these systems really cost that much. May be there is someone in the > list who can shed more light on these systems. > > BTW: To make this even more interesting various developers in the list can > suggest a software solution component for each problem these systems solve, > estimated development time and estimated cost. That way it's not just > talking the talk but walking the walk. > > I'll take a shot: > Case 1: > From the newspaper article, one of the port guys is quoted as saying: > "One unique thing about the system is its capacity to capture data in real > time. The moment a vehicle rolls out of a vessel, its data is captured. This makes it easier for us to track such cargo and containers as well," said > Osero. > > My take: > Analysis: The machines which are costing 250M (It's 250M machines + 200M > software = 450M entire system) have sensors that measure different > qualities/properties of the item in the machine e.g. weight. These machines > have an API to link them to a computer system. Using the API get the > measured quantity and display/store in database etc. This isn't really the > hardest thing to do as the manufactures of the 250M machines should provide > documentation and support to the software developers. > > Estimated work force and time: 3 developers, 3-4 months. > > Cost: 200K * 3 developers * 4 months = 2.4M. + 20% (any other expenses) = > 2.88M. > > Case 2: > Another feature is keeping track/audit trails/ historical data. > My take: > Analysis: This is basically from: > 1. Collection of good requirements from the port. > 2. Designing the right architecture that fits the requirements. > 3. Creating the right designs from the architecture. > 4. Pass the designs to the programmers for implementation. > > 1-3 are Key and this is where the bulk of the money will go. > > Estimated work force and time: 3 system requirements/analysis collectors, 4 > months. The actual time depends on how well KPA know the problems they are > facing, and how well they can describe them. > 3 system/software architects, > 3 months. > 4 system/software designers, 5 > months. > > Cost: (Requirements) 100K * 3 * 4 = 1.2M+20% = 1.44M > (Architecture) 350K * 3 * 3 = 3.15M+20% = 3.78M > (Design) 250K * 4 * 5 = 5M+20% = 6M. > > So far the total is 14.1 M. And these are some of the most important roles. > Even with 15 programmers @ 100K for 12 months (+20%) = 21.6M for a current > toral of 35.7M. > > OK I'll stop there. I'm not writting a report. Feel free to correct me. I > could be very wrong. Hello Kiriinya, This is a very interesting analysis and I'm compelled to agree with you as regards the cost factors. However, the implementation process doesn't seem to be that straight, and might not be for some time. Hey, I am not being the govt spokesman on these matters but nothing is so secret about it. I do believe that tenders were invited for such implementations but I don't know the details. I am only assuming it's the norm. If any studies were carried out regarding the system requirements, then only the IT Directors within those organizations can tell. Perhaps it's time such information is made public via some govt
Wesley, Actually given the right parameters, even ERP-like software can be locally developed. The two closest examples of ERP-like systems I have come across that were 'locally' developed were: a system by Haron Wachira (he formerly of Diamond Systems - the 1st Kenyan firm to assemble computers) which I remember being used by a major Tea company through its network, among others, and Rwanda's SmartGov. There is a very thin line between these systems and conventional ERPs. Btw, before I even thought that 'hardware' manufacture/assembly is a pipe-dream for us - until I came across the 'fabless trend' that Nigeria is already pushing. It is truly cutting-edge technology - and 'knowledge work'. For those who might not know, in such a scenario, a country/firm that does not have the technology to 'manufacture' chips/VLSI can still design systems, and then send designs to places like Malaysia for production/manufacture of the chips. The 'intelligence' or brain-work (and hence the money) is not in the manufacture, but in the design, particularly for products whose value is in the uniqueness/complexity, not numbers. In effect, if the environment is right, it is doable. Shem --- On Wed, 6/25/08, wesley kiriinya <kiriinya2000@yahoo.com> wrote: From: wesley kiriinya <kiriinya2000@yahoo.com> Subject: Re: [kictanet] Expensive software systems? To: "Shem Ochuodho" <shemochuodho@yahoo.com> Cc: "KICTAnet ICT Policy Discussions" <kictanet@lists.kictanet.or.ke> Date: Wednesday, June 25, 2008, 12:55 PM The kind of software I'm refering to is not on the rank of SAP and Oracle. These are software built to use SAP, Oracle or other larger scale software. So let me break it down: 1. Level 1 Software: Operating systems, SAP, Oracle, MS SQL, ...: I don't propose that these can be done locally. 2. Level 2 Software: Software that integrates with the above. Usually shipped as libraries. It's sort of middle level software: This requires good skill and can be done locally on some scale. Infact it should be encouraged that it be done locally. 3. Level 3 Software: What the client actually interacts with. They can also be software utilities. They interact with the Level 2 Software: Can be done locally. This is probably the work outsourced to countries with cheapest labour that can do the work. --- On Wed, 6/25/08, Leonard Mware <mleonardo@yahoo.com> wrote: From: Leonard Mware <mleonardo@yahoo.com> Subject: Re: [kictanet] Expensive software systems? To: kiriinya2000@yahoo.com Cc: "New Vision List" <newvisionkenya@yahoogroups.com>, "KICTAnet ICT Policy Discussions" <kictanet@lists.kictanet.or.ke> Date: Wednesday, June 25, 2008, 4:40 PM I have two questions: 1. Do we have locally done large scale ERPs in the market that compares with SAP, Navision, BAAN, Oracle Financials? 2. How well tested are they? For such a large and mission critical system testing skills and the cost of testing is critical on final cost. Leonard Shem Ochuodho <shemochuodho@yahoo.com> wrote: Wesley & Washington, Very legitimate points raised. Allow me to share a real life experience. While at KPC, we came across two very interesting scenarios. When developing the Corporate ICT Strategy, we shopped around and gathered that possibly only 2 other 'Class A' parastatals and a handful of large private corporations had developed their ICT strategies. In a number of cases for multi-nationals, their strategies had largely been developed from parent organizations overseas. For the 2 local firms (and 1 large MNC), they had spent about KShs 300m to develop their strategies. In the case of KPC, it was done by locals (Kenyans), and it cost in total just under KShs 15m (10m to 'experts' + overheads + taxes). Yet for those who may be in the know, at the time (2004/05), the KPC ICT Strategy was like an ad-hoc standard (the way the Rwandan ICT Masterplan is to some!). Not only did a number of other strategic parastatals go the same route/or borrow an idea or two from it; at the time, some sections of COMESA and NEPAD were considering it for a 'regional template'. Am not belabouring on this to show how excellent it was, but to give comfort that it was as good - if not better - than those which were developed at 20x its cost - and by locals. At inception, we had a dilemma because we would not have found any local experts with experience in this sector - since KPC was/is perhaps the only refined petroleum pipeline company in the region - so to find 'local experts' who had developed similar strategies was almost out of question. However, Management & Board recognized that there were discrete skills which could be put together to get something close to the desired whole/ideal: there were people who had developed strategies for large corporations (public and/or private), oil companies (the distributors), energy companies (e.g. SCADA is a backbone to all large-scale energy 'transporters', including KPC and KP&LC), etc. So, we went out looking for what at the time were considered to be some of the best within Govt, industry (private sector), academia, and civil society (in this case not the NGO Council, but professional associations), etc. In all, we ended up with a team of 15, some of them subscribers on this list. And they did a fantastic job. Scenario 2: just as the team was winding down, the SCADA system broke down. This wasn't the first time for the system to go done; it had done so a few times before. From info available, whenever this had happened before, we had to turn to a major international firm in this sector domiciled in Canada. Firstly, they would take at least two weeks to arrive to work on the problem. Secondly, every time they came the Corporation would pay KShs 10m minimum, minus overheads (air-fare, hotel accommodation, etc). In this instance, when the ICT-Strategy team was asked if they could work on it, 3 among them came forward to do so. Within 4 days, yes 4 days, the system was up and running, and it cost the Corporation only KShs 700k (inclusive of overheads)! Apart from the money and time saving, we had enabled ¡technology transfer/acquisition¢, and if need be, in future, there was local expertise that would be called upon. In a nutshell, I wouldn't be surprised if we spent 20x more on ICT products and services than is really necessary - especially for the ultra-large projects. ICT development and promotion is not only attractive in the wealth, jobs, efficiency and productivity it creates, but also in the expenses/costs it saves. Would be interesting to know how much as a country we spend to 'import technology' versus what we would need to spend on developing skills that would help us avoid importing some (of course not all) those technologies. Best rgrds, Shem --- On Wed, 6/25/08, Odhiambo Washington <odhiambo@gmail.com> wrote: From: Odhiambo Washington <odhiambo@gmail.com> Subject: Re: [kictanet] Expensive software systems? To: "Shem Ochuodho" <shemochuodho@yahoo.com> Cc: "KICTAnet ICT Policy Discussions" <kictanet@lists.kictanet.or.ke> Date: Wednesday, June 25, 2008, 4:20 AM On Wed, Jun 25, 2008 at 9:56 AM, wesley kiriinya <kiriinya2000@yahoo.com> wrote: > Ladies and Gentlemen, > > How come most of the software systems Kenya gvnmt and related bodies > purchase always cost 100s of millions if not a few billions? > Like this one for KPA: > http://www.bdafrica.com/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=8383&Itemid=5860 > > This is not meant to hit anyone hard. I'm trying to see whether there is a > better solution. publication (those organizations are parastatals). I am not familiar with govt procurement procedures but the last time I read anything about it, it was a whole lot of a mess so you don't expect to see any level of transparency in that. Those are some of the things the coalition govt is supposed to be addressing, IIRC. But even if you expressed interest in undertake such a project, I wonder how much the organizations would be willing to let you in on their operations. So the first question is: Did they give the organization that won the tender the access into their operations in order to understand their needs? I don't think so. Perhaps they just "borrowed" from an organization that had done it for someone else and customized! In such a case, no one cares to do the calculations as you have done. They simply get a quote, "negotiate" and buy. I believe this explains why the costs are as high as they are. -- Best regards, Odhiambo WASHINGTON, Nairobi,KE +254733744121/+254722743223 _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ "Oh My God! They killed init! You Bastards!" --from a /. post _______________________________________________ kictanet mailing list kictanet@lists.kictanet.or.ke http://lists.kictanet.or.ke/mailman/listinfo/kictanet This message was sent to: shemochuodho@yahoo.com Unsubscribe or change your options at http://lists.kictanet.or.ke/mailman/options/kictanet/shemochuodho%40yahoo.co... _______________________________________________ kictanet mailing list kictanet@lists.kictanet.or.ke http://lists.kictanet.or.ke/mailman/listinfo/kictanet This message was sent to: mleonardo@yahoo.com Unsubscribe or change your options at http://lists.kictanet.or.ke/mailman/options/kictanet/mleonardo%40yahoo.com _______________________________________________ kictanet mailing list kictanet@lists.kictanet.or.ke http://lists.kictanet.or.ke/mailman/listinfo/kictanet This message was sent to: kiriinya2000@yahoo.com Unsubscribe or change your options at http://lists.kictanet.or.ke/mailman/options/kictanet/kiriinya2000%40yahoo.co... _______________________________________________ kictanet mailing list kictanet@lists.kictanet.or.ke http://lists.kictanet.or.ke/mailman/listinfo/kictanet This message was sent to: shemochuodho@yahoo.com Unsubscribe or change your options at http://lists.kictanet.or.ke/mailman/options/kictanet/shemochuodho%40yahoo.co...
Wesley, I tend to disagree with you a little. I believe that that kind of software can be done locally. It's a failure in our educational system. Open Bravo, one of the leading Open Source ERP's is developed by the University of Navarre, in Spain. Software development in universities is one of those projects which do not require finance, they only require organisation. Most students have their own PC's anyway, and are involved in their own projects, why not deviate the same to such projects. In this regard, Strathmore University have successfully modified an AMS (Academic Management System) from the same university and are now reselling the same. It think it can be done, it's that we do not have faith in ourselves. FreeBSD was developed by Buffallo University. Andrew Filing System (AFS) that Google use was developed at Carnegie Mellon University. Students are idle always looking for internships, the Universities should allow them to work on such projects, and the students are more then willing to do so by the way. Now JKUAT has roughly 1600 Computer Science and IT students in it's various Campuses. Nairobi has something close to 200 Computer Science Students, surely 1800 minds cannot come up with something? And those are our two leading technology universities? Secondly, I have always got the feeling that many times, people want to walk before they can crawl, and here is where i agree with your points on level 2 and level 3 software. Let the software companies deploy ERP's for SME's, and develop a track record, instead of going after the big company fast, this makes more sense and will earn them money to firm up their capacity. On Wed, Jun 25, 2008 at 4:40 PM, Leonard Mware <mleonardo@yahoo.com> wrote:
I have two questions: 1. Do we have locally done large scale ERPs in the market that compares with SAP, Navision, BAAN, Oracle Financials? 2. How well tested are they? For such a large and mission critical system testing skills and the cost of testing is critical on final cost.
Leonard
Shem Ochuodho <shemochuodho@yahoo.com> wrote:
Wesley & Washington,
Very legitimate points raised.
Allow me to share a real life experience. While at KPC, we came across two very interesting scenarios. When developing the Corporate ICT Strategy, we shopped around and gathered that possibly only 2 other 'Class A' parastatals and a handful of large private corporations had developed their ICT strategies. In a number of cases for multi-nationals, their strategies had largely been developed from parent organizations overseas. For the 2 local firms (and 1 large MNC), they had spent about KShs 300m to develop their strategies. In the case of KPC, it was done by locals (Kenyans), and it cost in total just under KShs 15m (10m to 'experts' + overheads + taxes).
Yet for those who may be in the know, at the time (2004/05), the KPC ICT Strategy was like an ad-hoc standard (the way the Rwandan ICT Masterplan is to some!). Not only did a number of other strategic parastatals go the same route/or borrow an idea or two from it; at the time, some sections of COMESA and NEPAD were considering it for a 'regional template'. Am not belabouring on this to show how excellent it was, but to give comfort that it was as good - if not better - than those which were developed at 20x its cost - and by locals.
At inception, we had a dilemma because we would not have found any local experts with experience in this sector - since KPC was/is perhaps the only refined petroleum pipeline company in the region - so to find 'local experts' who had developed similar strategies was almost out of question. However, Management & Board recognized that there were discrete skills which could be put together to get something close to the desired whole/ideal: there were people who had developed strategies for large corporations (public and/or private), oil companies (the distributors), energy companies (e.g. SCADA is a backbone to all large-scale energy 'transporters', including KPC and KP&LC), etc. So, we went out looking for what at the time were considered to be some of the best within Govt, industry (private sector), academia, and civil society (in this case not the NGO Council, but professional associations), etc. In all, we ended up with a team of 15, some of them subscribers on this list. And they did a fantastic job.
Scenario 2: just as the team was winding down, the SCADA system broke down. This wasn't the first time for the system to go done; it had done so a few times before. From info available, whenever this had happened before, we had to turn to a major international firm in this sector domiciled in Canada. Firstly, they would take at least two weeks to arrive to work on the problem. Secondly, every time they came the Corporation would pay KShs 10m minimum, minus overheads (air-fare, hotel accommodation, etc). In this instance, when the ICT-Strategy team was asked if they could work on it, 3 among them came forward to do so. Within 4 days, yes 4 days, the system was up and running, and it cost the Corporation only KShs 700k (inclusive of overheads)! Apart from the money and time saving, we had enabled ¡technology transfer/acquisition¢, and if need be, in future, there was local expertise that would be called upon.
In a nutshell, I wouldn't be surprised if we spent 20x more on ICT products and services than is really necessary - especially for the ultra-large projects. ICT development and promotion is not only attractive in the wealth, jobs, efficiency and productivity it creates, but also in the expenses/costs it saves. Would be interesting to know how much as a country we spend to 'import technology' versus what we would need to spend on developing skills that would help us avoid importing some (of course not all) those technologies.
Best rgrds, Shem --- On Wed, 6/25/08, Odhiambo Washington <odhiambo@gmail.com> wrote:
From: Odhiambo Washington <odhiambo@gmail.com> Subject: Re: [kictanet] Expensive software systems? To: "Shem Ochuodho" <shemochuodho@yahoo.com> Cc: "KICTAnet ICT Policy Discussions" <kictanet@lists.kictanet.or.ke> Date: Wednesday, June 25, 2008, 4:20 AM
On Wed, Jun 25, 2008 at 9:56 AM, wesley kiriinya <kiriinya2000@yahoo.com> wrote: > Ladies and Gentlemen, > > How come most of the software systems Kenya gvnmt and related bodies > purchase always cost 100s of millions if not a few billions? > Like this one for KPA: > http://www.bdafrica.com/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=8383&Itemid=5860 > > This is not meant to hit anyone hard. I'm trying to see whether there is a > better solution. > > So far this year I've heard of 3 systems: > 1. KRA > 2. Immigration > 3. KPA. > > This KPA system costs a total of 450M, but the software bit is 200M. From > the software features described I feel they could have got better value for > their money. > > May be these systems really cost that much. May be there is someone in the > list who can shed more light on these systems. > > BTW: To make this even more interesting various developers in the list can > suggest a software solution component for each problem these systems solve, > estimated development time and estimated cost. That way it's not just > talking the talk but walking the walk. > > I'll take a shot: > Case 1: > From the newspaper article, one of the port guys is quoted as saying: > "One unique thing about the system is its capacity to capture data in real > time. The moment a vehicle rolls out of a vessel, its data is captured. This
makes it easier for us to track such cargo and containers as well," said > Osero. > > My take: > Analysis: The machines which are costing 250M (It's 250M machines + 200M > software = 450M entire system) have sensors that measure different > qualities/properties of the item in the machine e.g. weight. These machines > have an API to link them to a computer system. Using the API get the > measured quantity and display/store in database etc. This isn't really the > hardest thing to do as the manufactures of the 250M machines should provide > documentation and support to the software developers. > > Estimated work force and time: 3 developers, 3-4 months. > > Cost: 200K * 3 developers * 4 months = 2.4M. + 20% (any other expenses) = > 2.88M. > > Case 2: > Another feature is keeping track/audit trails/ historical data. > > My take: > Analysis: This is basically from: > 1. Collection of good requirements from the port. > 2. Designing the right architecture that fits the requirements. > 3. Creating the right designs from the architecture. > 4. Pass the designs to the programmers for implementation. > > 1-3 are Key and this is where the bulk of the money will go. > > Estimated work force and time: 3 system requirements/analysis collectors, 4 > months. The actual time depends on how well KPA know the problems they are > facing, and how well they can describe them. > 3 system/software architects, > 3 months. > 4 system/software designers, 5 > months. > > Cost: (Requirements) 100K * 3 * 4 = 1.2M+20% = 1.44M > (Architecture) 350K * 3 * 3 = 3.15M+20% = 3.78M > (Design) 250K * 4 * 5 = 5M+20% = 6M. > > So far the total is 14.1 M. And these are some of the most important roles. > Even with 15 programmers @ 100K for 12 months (+20%) = 21.6M for a current > toral of 35.7M. > > OK I'll stop there. I'm not writting a report. Feel free to correct me. I > could be very wrong. Hello Kiriinya, This is a very interesting analysis and I'm compelled to agree with you as regards the cost factors. However, the implementation process doesn't seem to be that straight, and might not be for some time. Hey, I am not being the govt spokesman on these matters but nothing is so secret about it. I do believe that tenders were invited for such implementations but I don't know the details. I am only assuming it's the norm. If any studies were carried out regarding the system requirements, then only the IT Directors within those organizations can tell. Perhaps it's time such information is made public via some govt publication (those organizations are parastatals). I am not familiar with govt procurement procedures but the last time I read anything about it, it was a whole lot of a mess so you don't expect to see any level of transparency in that. Those are some of the things the coalition govt is supposed to be addressing, IIRC. But even if you expressed interest in undertake such a project, I wonder how much the organizations would be willing to let you in on their operations. So the first question is: Did they give the organization that won the tender the access into their operations in order to understand their needs? I don't think so. Perhaps they just "borrowed" from an organization that had done it for someone else and customized! In such a case, no one cares to do the calculations as you have done. They simply get a quote, "negotiate" and buy. I believe this explains why the costs are as high as they are. -- Best regards, Odhiambo WASHINGTON, Nairobi,KE +254733744121/+254722743223 _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ "Oh My God! They killed init! You Bastards!" --from a /. post _______________________________________________ kictanet mailing list kictanet@lists.kictanet.or.ke http://lists.kictanet.or.ke/mailman/listinfo/kictanet This message was sent to: shemochuodho@yahoo.com Unsubscribe or change your options at http://lists.kictanet.or.ke/mailman/options/kictanet/shemochuodho%40yahoo.co...
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-- With Regards, Phares Kaboro Kariuki, "Democracy is a device that ensures we shall be governed no better than we deserve". George Bernard Shaw
I agree pk. What Wesley was referring to at KPA is actually SAP (if I am not wrong) and one would say there is no local equal. In the absence of understanding their business case that led to that choice it is hard to blame them. On the other hand, it is true some organizations go for systems that are too expensive and maybe they could do with smaller version. As a matter of interest, the Strathmore customized Open Source system seems more expensive than Microsoft Navision!! L pkariuki@gmail.com wrote: Wesley, I tend to disagree with you a little. I believe that that kind of software can be done locally. It's a failure in our educational system. Open Bravo, one of the leading Open Source ERP's is developed by the University of Navarre, in Spain. Software development in universities is one of those projects which do not require finance, they only require organisation. Most students have their own PC's anyway, and are involved in their own projects, why not deviate the same to such projects. In this regard, Strathmore University have successfully modified an AMS (Academic Management System) from the same university and are now reselling the same. It think it can be done, it's that we do not have faith in ourselves. FreeBSD was developed by Buffallo University. Andrew Filing System (AFS) that Google use was developed at Carnegie Mellon University. Students are idle always looking for internships, the Universities should allow them to work on such projects, and the students are more then willing to do so by the way. Now JKUAT has roughly 1600 Computer Science and IT students in it's various Campuses. Nairobi has something close to 200 Computer Science Students, surely 1800 minds cannot come up with something? And those are our two leading technology universities? Secondly, I have always got the feeling that many times, people want to walk before they can crawl, and here is where i agree with your points on level 2 and level 3 software. Let the software companies deploy ERP's for SME's, and develop a track record, instead of going after the big company fast, this makes more sense and will earn them money to firm up their capacity. On Wed, Jun 25, 2008 at 4:40 PM, Leonard Mware wrote:
I have two questions: 1. Do we have locally done large scale ERPs in the market that compares with SAP, Navision, BAAN, Oracle Financials? 2. How well tested are they? For such a large and mission critical system testing skills and the cost of testing is critical on final cost.
Leonard
Shem Ochuodho wrote:
Wesley & Washington,
Very legitimate points raised.
Allow me to share a real life experience. While at KPC, we came across two very interesting scenarios. When developing the Corporate ICT Strategy, we shopped around and gathered that possibly only 2 other 'Class A' parastatals and a handful of large private corporations had developed their ICT strategies. In a number of cases for multi-nationals, their strategies had largely been developed from parent organizations overseas. For the 2 local firms (and 1 large MNC), they had spent about KShs 300m to develop their strategies. In the case of KPC, it was done by locals (Kenyans), and it cost in total just under KShs 15m (10m to 'experts' + overheads + taxes).
Yet for those who may be in the know, at the time (2004/05), the KPC ICT Strategy was like an ad-hoc standard (the way the Rwandan ICT Masterplan is to some!). Not only did a number of other strategic parastatals go the same route/or borrow an idea or two from it; at the time, some sections of COMESA and NEPAD were considering it for a 'regional template'. Am not belabouring on this to show how excellent it was, but to give comfort that it was as good - if not better - than those which were developed at 20x its cost - and by locals.
At inception, we had a dilemma because we would not have found any local experts with experience in this sector - since KPC was/is perhaps the only refined petroleum pipeline company in the region - so to find 'local experts' who had developed similar strategies was almost out of question. However, Management & Board recognized that there were discrete skills which could be put together to get something close to the desired whole/ideal: there were people who had developed strategies for large corporations (public and/or private), oil companies (the distributors), energy companies (e.g. SCADA is a backbone to all large-scale energy 'transporters', including KPC and KP&LC), etc. So, we went out looking for what at the time were considered to be some of the best within Govt, industry (private sector), academia, and civil society (in this case not the NGO Council, but professional associations), etc. In all, we ended up with a team of 15, some of them subscribers on this
list. And they did a fantastic job.
Scenario 2: just as the team was winding down, the SCADA system broke down. This wasn't the first time for the system to go done; it had done so a few times before. From info available, whenever this had happened before, we had to turn to a major international firm in this sector domiciled in Canada. Firstly, they would take at least two weeks to arrive to work on the problem. Secondly, every time they came the Corporation would pay KShs 10m minimum, minus overheads (air-fare, hotel accommodation, etc). In this instance, when the ICT-Strategy team was asked if they could work on it, 3 among them came forward to do so. Within 4 days, yes 4 days, the system was up and running, and it cost the Corporation only KShs 700k (inclusive of overheads)! Apart from the money and time saving, we had enabled ¡technology transfer/acquisition¢, and if need be, in future, there was local expertise that would be called upon.
In a nutshell, I wouldn't be surprised if we spent 20x more on ICT products and services than is really necessary - especially for the ultra-large projects. ICT development and promotion is not only attractive in the wealth, jobs, efficiency and productivity it creates, but also in the expenses/costs it saves. Would be interesting to know how much as a country we spend to 'import technology' versus what we would need to spend on developing skills that would help us avoid importing some (of course not all) those technologies.
Best rgrds, Shem --- On Wed, 6/25/08, Odhiambo Washington wrote:
From: Odhiambo Washington Subject: Re: [kictanet] Expensive software systems? To: "Shem Ochuodho" Cc: "KICTAnet ICT Policy Discussions" Date: Wednesday, June 25, 2008, 4:20 AM
On Wed, Jun 25, 2008 at 9:56 AM, wesley kiriinya wrote: > Ladies and Gentlemen, > > How come most of the software systems Kenya gvnmt and related bodies > purchase always cost 100s of millions if not a few billions? > Like this one for KPA: > http://www.bdafrica.com/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=8383&Itemid=5860 > > This is not meant to hit anyone hard. I'm trying to see whether there is a > better solution. > > So far this year I've heard of 3 systems: > 1. KRA > 2. Immigration > 3. KPA. > > This KPA system costs a total of 450M, but the software bit is 200M. From > the software features described I feel they could have got better value for > their money. > > May be these systems really cost that much. May be there is someone in the > list who can shed more light on these systems. > > BTW: To make this even more interesting various developers in the list can > suggest a software solution component for each problem these systems solve, > estimated development time and estimated cost. That way it's not just > talking the talk but walking the walk. > > I'll take a shot: > Case 1: > From the newspaper article, one of the port guys is quoted as saying: > "One unique thing about the system is its capacity to capture data in real > time. The moment a vehicle rolls out of a vessel, its data is captured. This
makes it easier for us to track such cargo and containers as well," said > Osero. > > My take: > Analysis: The machines which are costing 250M (It's 250M machines + 200M > software = 450M entire system) have sensors that measure different > qualities/properties of the item in the machine e.g. weight. These machines > have an API to link them to a computer system. Using the API get the > measured quantity and display/store in database etc. This isn't really the > hardest thing to do as the manufactures of the 250M machines should provide > documentation and support to the software developers. > > Estimated work force and time: 3 developers, 3-4 months. > > Cost: 200K * 3 developers * 4 months = 2.4M. + 20% (any other expenses) = > 2.88M. > > Case 2: > Another feature is keeping track/audit trails/ historical data. > > My take: > Analysis: This is basically from: > 1. Collection of good requirements from the port. > 2. Designing the right architecture that fits the requirements. > 3. Creating the right designs from the architecture. > 4. Pass the designs to the programmers for implementation. > > 1-3 are Key and this is where the bulk of the money will go. > > Estimated work force and time: 3 system requirements/analysis collectors, 4 > months. The actual time depends on how well KPA know the problems they are > facing, and how well they can describe them. > 3 system/software architects, > 3 months. > 4 system/software designers, 5 > months. > > Cost: (Requirements) 100K * 3 * 4 = 1.2M+20% = 1.44M > (Architecture) 350K * 3 * 3 = 3.15M+20% = 3.78M > (Design) 250K * 4 * 5 = 5M+20% = 6M. > > So far the total is 14.1 M. And these are some of the most important roles. > Even with 15 programmers @ 100K for 12 months (+20%) = 21.6M for a current > toral of 35.7M. > > OK I'll stop there. I'm not writting a report. Feel free to correct me. I > could be very wrong. Hello Kiriinya, This is a very interesting analysis and I'm compelled to agree with you as regards the cost factors. However, the implementation process doesn't seem to be that straight, and might not be for some time. Hey, I am not being the govt spokesman on these matters but nothing is so secret about it. I do believe that tenders were invited for such implementations but I don't know the details. I am only assuming it's the norm. If any studies were carried out regarding the system requirements, then only the IT Directors within those organizations can tell. Perhaps it's time such information is made public via some govt publication (those organizations are parastatals). I am not familiar with govt procurement procedures but the last time I read anything about it, it was a whole lot of a mess so you don't expect to see any level of transparency in that. Those are some of the things the coalition govt is supposed to be addressing, IIRC. But even if you expressed interest in undertake such a project, I wonder how much the organizations would be willing to let you in on their operations. So the first question is: Did they give the organization that won the tender the access into their operations in order to understand their needs? I don't think so. Perhaps they just "borrowed" from an organization that had done it for someone else and customized! In such a case, no one cares to do the calculations as you have done. They simply get a quote, "negotiate" and buy. I believe this explains why the costs are as high as they are. -- Best regards, Odhiambo WASHINGTON, Nairobi,KE +254733744121/+254722743223 _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ "Oh My God! They killed init! You Bastards!" --from a /. post _______________________________________________ kictanet mailing list kictanet@lists.kictanet.or.ke http://lists.kictanet.or.ke/mailman/listinfo/kictanet This message was sent to: shemochuodho@yahoo.com Unsubscribe or change your options at http://lists.kictanet.or.ke/mailman/options/kictanet/shemochuodho%40yahoo.co...
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-- With Regards, Phares Kaboro Kariuki, "Democracy is a device that ensures we shall be governed no better than we deserve". George Bernard Shaw
Is it really SAP? Do you mean that the company that is developing that 200M software is actually building a SAP like software from ground up in a couple of months? I really doubt. May be they are building software or customizations on top of SAP. From what I've heard SAP is a large software system that has taken years to build and the skill required must be very high. Note that I did not say ERP when describing SAP and that's because these general terms are really abused nowadays (Go on blame the marketers ;~)). An ERP software can range from something small to something really big and I think SAP falls in the BIG category. All in all it's been an interesting discussion. I wish we had more information about the systems the government and related bodies are purchasing (with taxes 8~D). We shouldn't have to read them from news articles. The technical details is the sweet spot! --- On Wed, 6/25/08, Leonard Mware <mleonardo@yahoo.com> wrote: From: Leonard Mware <mleonardo@yahoo.com> Subject: Re: [kictanet] Expensive software systems? To: kiriinya2000@yahoo.com Cc: "New Vision List" <newvisionkenya@yahoogroups.com>, "KICTAnet ICT Policy Discussions" <kictanet@lists.kictanet.or.ke> Date: Wednesday, June 25, 2008, 9:03 PM I agree pk. What Wesley was referring to at KPA is actually SAP (if I am not wrong) and one would say there is no local equal. In the absence of understanding their business case that led to that choice it is hard to blame them. On the other hand, it is true some organizations go for systems that are too expensive and maybe they could do with smaller version. As a matter of interest, the Strathmore customized Open Source system seems more expensive than Microsoft Navision!! L pkariuki@gmail.com wrote: Wesley, I tend to disagree with you a little. I believe that that kind of software can be done locally. It's a failure in our educational system. Open Bravo, one of the leading Open Source ERP's is developed by the University of Navarre, in Spain. Software development in universities is one of those projects which do not require finance, they only require organisation. Most students have their own PC's anyway, and are involved in their own projects, why not deviate the same to such projects. In this regard, Strathmore University have successfully modified an AMS (Academic Management System) from the same university and are now reselling the same. It think it can be done, it's that we do not have faith in ourselves. FreeBSD was developed by Buffallo University. Andrew Filing System (AFS) that Google use was developed at Carnegie Mellon University. Students are idle always looking for internships, the Universities should allow them to work on such projects, and the students are more then willing to do so by the way. Now JKUAT has roughly 1600 Computer Science and IT students in it's various Campuses. Nairobi has something close to 200 Computer Science Students, surely 1800 minds cannot come up with something? And those are our two leading technology universities? Secondly, I have always got the feeling that many times, people want to walk before they can crawl, and here is where i agree with your points on level 2 and level 3 software. Let the software companies deploy ERP's for SME's, and develop a track record, instead of going after the big company fast, this makes more sense and will earn them money to firm up their capacity. On Wed, Jun 25, 2008 at 4:40 PM, Leonard Mware wrote:
I have two questions: 1. Do we have locally done large scale ERPs in the market that compares with SAP, Navision, BAAN, Oracle Financials? 2. How well tested are they? For such a large and mission critical system testing skills and the cost of testing is critical on final cost.
Leonard
Shem Ochuodho wrote:
Wesley & Washington,
Very legitimate points raised.
Allow me
Yet for those who may be in the know, at the time (2004/05), the KPC ICT Strategy was like an ad-hoc standard (the way the Rwandan ICT Masterplan is to some!). Not only did a number of other strategic parastatals go the same route/or borrow an idea or two from it; at the time, some sections of COMESA and
NEPAD were considering it for a 'regional template'. Am not belabouring on this to show how excellent it was, but to give comfort that it was as good - if not better - than those which were developed at 20x its cost - and by locals.
At inception, we had a dilemma because we would not have found any local experts with experience in this sector - since KPC was/is perhaps the only refined petroleum pipeline company in the region - so to find 'local experts' who had developed similar strategies was almost out of question. However, Management & Board recognized that there were discrete skills which could be put together to get something close to the desired whole/ideal: there were people who had developed strategies for large corporations (public and/or private), oil companies (the distributors), energy companies (e.g. SCADA is a backbone to all large-scale energy 'transporters', including KPC and KP&LC), etc. So, we went out looking for what at
to share a real life experience. While at KPC, we came across two very interesting scenarios. When developing the Corporate ICT Strategy, we shopped around and gathered that possibly only 2 other 'Class A' parastatals and a handful of large private corporations had developed their ICT strategies. In a number of cases for multi-nationals, their strategies had largely been developed from parent organizations overseas. For the 2 local firms (and 1 large MNC), they had spent about KShs 300m to develop their strategies. In the case of KPC, it was done by locals (Kenyans), and it cost in total just under KShs 15m (10m to 'experts' + overheads + taxes). the time were considered to be some of the best within Govt, industry (private sector), academia, and civil society (in this case not the NGO Council, but professional associations), etc. In all, we ended up with a team of 15, some of them subscribers on this list. And they did a fantastic job.
Scenario 2: just as the team was winding down, the SCADA system broke down. This wasn't the first time for the system to go done; it had done so a few times before. From info available, whenever this had happened before, we had to turn to a major international firm in this sector domiciled in Canada. Firstly, they would take at least two weeks to arrive to work on the problem. Secondly, every time they came the Corporation would pay KShs 10m minimum, minus overheads (air-fare, hotel accommodation, etc). In this instance, when the ICT-Strategy team was asked if they could work on it, 3 among them came forward to do so. Within 4 days, yes 4 days, the system
was up and running, and it cost the Corporation only KShs 700k (inclusive of overheads)! Apart from the money and time saving, we had enabled ¡technology transfer/acquisition¢, and if need be, in future, there was local expertise that would be called upon.
In a nutshell, I wouldn't be surprised if we spent 20x more on ICT products and services than is really necessary - especially for the ultra-large projects. ICT development and promotion is not only attractive in the wealth, jobs, efficiency and productivity it creates, but also in the expenses/costs it saves. Would be interesting to know how much as a country we spend to 'import technology' versus what we would need to spend on developing skills that would help us avoid importing some (of course not all) those technologies.
Best rgrds, Shem --- On Wed, 6/25/08, Odhiambo Washington wrote:
From:
Odhiambo Washington
Subject: Re: [kictanet] Expensive software systems? To: "Shem Ochuodho" Cc: "KICTAnet ICT Policy Discussions" Date: Wednesday, June 25, 2008, 4:20 AM
On Wed, Jun 25, 2008 at 9:56 AM, wesley kiriinya wrote: > Ladies and Gentlemen, > > How come most of the software systems Kenya gvnmt and related bodies > purchase always cost 100s of millions if not a few billions? > Like this one for KPA: > http://www.bdafrica.com/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=8383&Itemid=5860 > > This is not meant to hit anyone hard. I'm trying to see whether there is a > better solution. > > So far this year I've heard of 3 systems: > 1. KRA > 2. Immigration > 3. KPA. > > This KPA system costs a total of 450M, but the software bit is 200M. From > the software features described I feel they could have got better value for > their money. > > May be these systems really cost that much. May be there is someone in the > list who can shed more light on these systems. > > BTW: To make this even more interesting various developers in the list can > suggest a software solution component for each problem these systems solve, > estimated development time and estimated cost. That way it's not just > talking the talk but walking the walk. > > I'll take a shot: > Case 1: > From the newspaper article, one of the port guys is quoted as saying: > "One unique thing about the system is its capacity to capture data in real > time. The moment a vehicle rolls out of a vessel, its data is captured. This
makes it easier for us to track such cargo and containers as well," said > Osero. > > My take: > Analysis: The machines which are costing 250M (It's 250M machines + 200M > software = 450M entire system) have sensors that measure different > qualities/properties of the item in the machine e.g. weight. These machines > have an API to link them to a computer system. Using the API get the > measured quantity and display/store in database etc. This isn't really the > hardest thing to do as the manufactures of the 250M machines should provide > documentation and support to the software developers. > > Estimated work force and time: 3 developers, 3-4 months. > > Cost: 200K * 3 developers * 4 months = 2.4M. + 20% (any other expenses) = > 2.88M. > > Case 2: > Another feature is keeping track/audit trails/ historical data. > > My take: > Analysis: This is basically from: > 1. Collection of good requirements from the port. > 2. Designing the right architecture that fits the requirements. > 3. Creating the right designs from the architecture. > 4. Pass the designs to the programmers for implementation. > > 1-3 are Key and this is where the bulk of the money will go. > > Estimated work force and time: 3 system requirements/analysis collectors, 4 > months. The actual time depends on how well KPA know the problems they are > facing, and how well they can describe them. > 3 system/software architects, > 3 months. > 4 system/software designers, 5 > months. > > Cost: (Requirements) 100K * 3 * 4 = 1.2M+20% = 1.44M > (Architecture) 350K * 3 * 3 = 3.15M+20% = 3.78M > (Design) 250K * 4 * 5 = 5M+20% = 6M. > > So far the total is 14.1 M. And these are some of the most important roles. > Even with 15 programmers @ 100K for 12 months (+20%) = 21.6M for a current > toral of 35.7M. > > OK I'll stop there. I'm not writting a report. Feel free to correct me. I > could be very wrong. Hello Kiriinya, This is a very interesting analysis and I'm compelled to agree with you as regards the cost factors. However, the implementation process doesn't seem to be that straight, and might not be for some time. Hey, I am not being the govt spokesman on these matters but nothing is so secret about it. I do believe that tenders were invited for such implementations but I don't know the details. I am only assuming it's the norm. If any studies were carried out regarding the system requirements, then only the IT Directors within those organizations can tell. Perhaps it's time such information is made public via some govt publication (those organizations are parastatals). I am not familiar with govt procurement procedures but the last time I read anything about it, it was a whole lot of a mess so you don't expect to see any level of transparency in that. Those are some of the things the coalition govt is supposed to be addressing, IIRC. But even if you expressed interest in undertake such a project, I wonder how much the organizations would be willing to let you in on their operations. So the first question is: Did they give the organization that won the tender the access into their operations in order to understand their needs? I don't think so. Perhaps they just "borrowed" from an organization that had done it for someone else and customized! In such a case, no one cares to do the calculations as you have done. They simply get a quote, "negotiate" and buy. I believe this explains why the costs are as high as they are. -- Best regards, Odhiambo WASHINGTON, Nairobi,KE +254733744121/
+254722743223 _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ "Oh My God! They killed init! You Bastards!"
--from a /. post _______________________________________________ kictanet mailing list kictanet@lists.kictanet.or.ke http://lists.kictanet.or.ke/mailman/listinfo/kictanet This message was sent to: shemochuodho@yahoo.com Unsubscribe or change your options at http://lists.kictanet.or.ke/mailman/options/kictanet/shemochuodho%40yahoo.co...
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-- With Regards, Phares Kaboro Kariuki, "Democracy is a device that ensures we shall be governed no better than we deserve". George Bernard Shaw _______________________________________________ kictanet mailing list kictanet@lists.kictanet.or.ke http://lists.kictanet.or.ke/mailman/listinfo/kictanet This message was sent to: kiriinya2000@yahoo.com Unsubscribe or change your options at http://lists.kictanet.or.ke/mailman/options/kictanet/kiriinya2000%40yahoo.co...
Wes, I both hear n feel you. I think these are some of the issues that the newly established PPOA is supposed to handle. Along with that of ensuring that Kenyansget a higher percentage of these deals. Brian Sent from my iPhone On 25 Jun 2008, at 9:56 AM, wesley kiriinya <kiriinya2000@yahoo.com> wrote:
Ladies and Gentlemen,
How come most of the software systems Kenya gvnmt and related bodies purchase always cost 100s of millions if not a few billions? Like this one for KPA: http://www.bdafrica.com/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=8383&Itemid=5860
This is not meant to hit anyone hard. I'm trying to see whether there is a better solution.
So far this year I've heard of 3 systems: 1. KRA 2. Immigration 3. KPA.
This KPA system costs a total of 450M, but the software bit is 200M. From the software features described I feel they could have got better value for their money.
May be these systems really cost that much. May be there is someone in the list who can shed more light on these systems.
BTW: To make this even more interesting various developers in the list can suggest a software solution component for each problem these systems solve, estimated development time and estimated cost. That way it's not just talking the talk but walking the walk.
I'll take a shot: Case 1: From the newspaper article, one of the port guys is quoted as saying: “One unique thing about the system is its capacity to capture data i n real time. The moment a vehicle rolls out of a vessel, its data is captured. This makes it easier for us to track such cargo and conta iners as well," said Osero.
My take: Analysis: The machines which are costing 250M (It's 250M machines + 200M software = 450M entire system) have sensors that measure different qualities/properties of the item in the machine e.g. weight. These machines have an API to link them to a computer system. Using the API get the measured quantity and display/store in database etc. This isn't really the hardest thing to do as the manufactures of the 250M machines should provide documentation and support to the software developers.
Estimated work force and time: 3 developers, 3-4 months.
Cost: 200K * 3 developers * 4 months = 2.4M. + 20% (any other expenses) = 2.88M.
Case 2: Another feature is keeping track/audit trails/ historical data.
My take: Analysis: This is basically from: 1. Collection of good requirements from the port. 2. Designing the right architecture that fits the requirements. 3. Creating the right designs from the architecture. 4. Pass the designs to the programmers for implementation.
1-3 are Key and this is where the bulk of the money will go.
Estimated work force and time: 3 system requirements/analysis collectors, 4 months. The actual time depends on how well KPA know the problems they are facing, and how well they can describe them. 3 system/software architects, 3 months. 4 system/software designers, 5 months.
Cost: (Requirements) 100K * 3 * 4 = 1.2M+20% = 1.44M (Architecture) 350K * 3 * 3 = 3.15M+20% = 3.78M (Design) 250K * 4 * 5 = 5M+20% = 6M.
So far the total is 14.1 M. And these are some of the most important roles. Even with 15 programmers @ 100K for 12 months (+20%) = 21.6M for a current toral of 35.7M.
OK I'll stop there. I'm not writting a report. Feel free to correct me. I could be very wrong.
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Two issues: I would say that Dr. Ndemo repeats an entrepreneurship class targeting local software developers like at the Barcamp. This is not a thumps up for the guy that billed for this system but costing models are developed by the businesses selling. What do you make of Microsoft who are due from Kenya: (decent price of Ms Office and Windows) * (Estimated Number of Computers in the country) $500 * 500,000 = $ 250,000,000 KES. 15,500,000,000 A whooping KES. 15.5 billion for commodity software. I guess you can tell why Gates is tops. By the way Open Source can squarely substitute this. Even with a blended software market, we can afford to save the country in foreign exchange about KES. 7 billion. These savings would most likely go into developing the local software industry in that businesses and government can use the savings in getting custom software that responds effectively to our business processes. Open Source software available can also be customized by local software companies for fit unique/peculiar business processes in Kenyan private and public sectors. This is a perspective i would like to add to this software debate. Muthoni On Wed, Jun 25, 2008 at 9:56 AM, wesley kiriinya <kiriinya2000@yahoo.com> wrote:
Ladies and Gentlemen,
How come most of the software systems Kenya gvnmt and related bodies purchase always cost 100s of millions if not a few billions? Like this one for KPA:
http://www.bdafrica.com/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=8383&Itemid=5860
This is not meant to hit anyone hard. I'm trying to see whether there is a better solution.
So far this year I've heard of 3 systems: 1. KRA 2. Immigration 3. KPA.
This KPA system costs a total of 450M, but the software bit is 200M. From the software features described I feel they could have got better value for their money.
May be these systems really cost that much. May be there is someone in the list who can shed more light on these systems.
BTW: To make this even more interesting various developers in the list can suggest a software solution component for each problem these systems solve, estimated development time and estimated cost. That way it's not just talking the talk but walking the walk.
I'll take a shot: Case 1: From the newspaper article, one of the port guys is quoted as saying: "One unique thing about the system is its capacity to capture data in real time. The moment a vehicle rolls out of a vessel, its data is captured. This makes it easier for us to track such cargo and containers as well," said Osero.
My take: Analysis: The machines which are costing 250M (It's 250M machines + 200M software = 450M entire system) have sensors that measure different qualities/properties of the item in the machine e.g. weight. These machines have an API to link them to a computer system. Using the API get the measured quantity and display/store in database etc. This isn't really the hardest thing to do as the manufactures of the 250M machines should provide documentation and support to the software developers.
Estimated work force and time: 3 developers, 3-4 months.
Cost: 200K * 3 developers * 4 months = 2.4M. + 20% (any other expenses) = 2.88M.
Case 2: Another feature is keeping track/audit trails/ historical data.
My take: Analysis: This is basically from: 1. Collection of good requirements from the port. 2. Designing the right architecture that fits the requirements. 3. Creating the right designs from the architecture. 4. Pass the designs to the programmers for implementation.
1-3 are Key and this is where the bulk of the money will go.
Estimated work force and time: 3 system requirements/analysis collectors, 4 months. The actual time depends on how well KPA know the problems they are facing, and how well they can describe them. 3 system/software architects, 3 months. 4 system/software designers, 5 months.
Cost: (Requirements) 100K * 3 * 4 = 1.2M+20% = 1.44M (Architecture) 350K * 3 * 3 = 3.15M+20% = 3.78M (Design) 250K * 4 * 5 = 5M+20% = 6M.
So far the total is 14.1 M. And these are some of the most important roles. Even with 15 programmers @ 100K for 12 months (+20%) = 21.6M for a current toral of 35.7M.
OK I'll stop there. I'm not writting a report. Feel free to correct me. I could be very wrong.
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-- Muthoni My Blog: http://rugongo.blogspot.com/ -------------------------------------------- Mahatma Gandhi once said:- First they ignore you, Then they laugh at you, Then they fight you, AND THEN YOU WIN!!!
Bingo! No wonder u won that award. Congrats. walu. --- On Wed, 6/25/08, Dorcas Muthoni <dmuthoni@gmail.com> wrote:
From: Dorcas Muthoni <dmuthoni@gmail.com> Subject: Re: [kictanet] Expensive software systems? To: jwalu@yahoo.com Cc: "KICTAnet ICT Policy Discussions" <kictanet@lists.kictanet.or.ke> Date: Wednesday, June 25, 2008, 1:28 PM Two issues:
I would say that Dr. Ndemo repeats an entrepreneurship class targeting local software developers like at the Barcamp.
This is not a thumps up for the guy that billed for this system but costing models are developed by the businesses selling.
What do you make of Microsoft who are due from Kenya: (decent price of Ms Office and Windows) * (Estimated Number of Computers in the country)
$500 * 500,000 = $ 250,000,000
KES. 15,500,000,000
A whooping KES. 15.5 billion for commodity software. I guess you can tell why Gates is tops. By the way Open Source can squarely substitute this. Even with a blended software market, we can afford to save the country in foreign exchange about KES. 7 billion. These savings would most likely go into developing the local software industry in that businesses and government can use the savings in getting custom software that responds effectively to our business processes. Open Source software available can also be customized by local software companies for fit unique/peculiar business processes in Kenyan private and public sectors.
This is a perspective i would like to add to this software debate.
Muthoni
On Wed, Jun 25, 2008 at 9:56 AM, wesley kiriinya <kiriinya2000@yahoo.com> wrote:
Ladies and Gentlemen,
How come most of the software systems Kenya gvnmt and related bodies purchase always cost 100s of millions if not a few billions? Like this one for KPA:
http://www.bdafrica.com/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=8383&Itemid=5860
This is not meant to hit anyone hard. I'm trying
better solution.
So far this year I've heard of 3 systems: 1. KRA 2. Immigration 3. KPA.
This KPA system costs a total of 450M, but the software bit is 200M. From the software features described I feel they could have got better value for their money.
May be these systems really cost that much. May be
list who can shed more light on these systems.
BTW: To make this even more interesting various developers in the list can suggest a software solution component for each problem
estimated development time and estimated cost. That way it's not just talking the talk but walking the walk.
I'll take a shot: Case 1: From the newspaper article, one of the port guys is quoted as saying: "One unique thing about the system is its capacity to capture data in real time. The moment a vehicle rolls out of a vessel, its data is captured. This makes it easier for us to track such cargo and containers as well," said Osero.
My take: Analysis: The machines which are costing 250M (It's 250M machines + 200M software = 450M entire system) have sensors that measure different qualities/properties of the item in the machine e.g. weight. These machines have an API to link them to a computer system. Using
measured quantity and display/store in database etc. This isn't really the hardest thing to do as the manufactures of the 250M machines should provide documentation and support to the software developers.
Estimated work force and time: 3 developers, 3-4 months.
Cost: 200K * 3 developers * 4 months = 2.4M. + 20% (any other expenses) = 2.88M.
Case 2: Another feature is keeping track/audit trails/ historical data.
My take: Analysis: This is basically from: 1. Collection of good requirements from the port. 2. Designing the right architecture that fits the requirements. 3. Creating the right designs from the architecture. 4. Pass the designs to the programmers for implementation.
1-3 are Key and this is where the bulk of the money will go.
Estimated work force and time: 3 system requirements/analysis collectors, 4 months. The actual time depends on how well KPA know
to see whether there is a there is someone in the these systems solve, the API get the the problems they are
facing, and how well they can describe them. 3 system/software architects, 3 months. 4 system/software designers, 5 months.
Cost: (Requirements) 100K * 3 * 4 = 1.2M+20% = 1.44M (Architecture) 350K * 3 * 3 = 3.15M+20% = 3.78M (Design) 250K * 4 * 5 = 5M+20% = 6M.
So far the total is 14.1 M. And these are some of the most important roles. Even with 15 programmers @ 100K for 12 months (+20%) = 21.6M for a current toral of 35.7M.
OK I'll stop there. I'm not writting a report. Feel free to correct me. I could be very wrong.
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This message was sent to: dmuthoni@gmail.com Unsubscribe or change your options at
http://lists.kictanet.or.ke/mailman/options/kictanet/dmuthoni%40gmail.com
-- Muthoni
My Blog: http://rugongo.blogspot.com/ -------------------------------------------- Mahatma Gandhi once said:-
First they ignore you, Then they laugh at you, Then they fight you, AND THEN YOU WIN!!!_______________________________________________ kictanet mailing list kictanet@lists.kictanet.or.ke http://lists.kictanet.or.ke/mailman/listinfo/kictanet
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participants (9)
-
aki -
Brian Munyao Longwe -
Dorcas Muthoni -
John Walubengo -
Leonard Mware -
Odhiambo Washington -
pkariuki＠gmail.com -
Shem Ochuodho -
wesley kiriinya