On Wed, Oct 17, 2012 at 3:44 PM, Alex Comninos <alex.comninos@gmail.com> wrote:

@Barrack,

RE: Community policing.
An interesting approach. Community policing has alot of virtues, I
come from South Africa, where it can be very effective (it can also
have adverse effects in the form of vigilanteism). The internet is
very different to a real life community. It is a community of
mulltiple and overlapping communities. These communities are a lot
less tight knit and it is hard to identify whether one is a member of
a community or not.

There are two interesting cases of informal and ad hoc community
policing on two online communities at the moment: 4chan
(http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2012/10/16/amanda-todd-bully-anonymous-suicide_n_1969792.html)
and reddit (http://gawker.com/5950981/unmasking-reddits-violentacrez-the-biggest-troll-on-the-web).
In some way, community policing is built into many online platforms,
like facebook and blog comments.

I worry that given the multiple layers of anonymity inherent on the
internet afforded to all: offenders, infringers, policers and
vigilantes. That any attempt at community policing online is fraught
with many problems. How to identify the source and veracity of
information provided by accusers? How to identify malicious actors and
motives in this type of policing? How to seperate fact from fantasy?
How to deal with internet vigilantes who take the law onto their own
hands if they are ill informed or have ulterior motives. How to deal
with internet "trolls" who take part in community policing?

This is a really interesting can of worms.

Kind regards, and thanks for the vibrant debate,
Alex Comninos

RE: A national survey.

> i think what we need to look at is to
> what extent should we sniff and is the citizenry comfortable i think we
> might need a national survey on this, CCK can do this.

I think perhaps a better body to conduct the survey would be the
Kenyan human rights commission. With regards to this issue they are
more neutral. They are not just concerned with communications, but all
human rights.

Measuring public opinion for the over 60% of the population that does
not use the internet, and may not easily relate to the concepts may
also be hard.

On 17 October 2012 14:13, Barrack Otieno <otieno.barrack@gmail.com> wrote:
> @ Alex on a lighter note watajua crown ni nini :-), if i was the new
> Inspector General of Police, i would find a way of collaborating with
> stakeholders to ensure that cyber security of the citizenry is guaranteed
> whilst respecting privacy something akin to community Policing, remember the
> days of subchiefs, my late grandmothers Sanyo Radio was once stolen and the
> villager was smoked out since the community members knew each other quiet
> well, in any case when you look at most mailing systems most system admins
> can see the emails that come through but they have to exercise a level of
> respect not to read through the mails, i think what we need to look at is to
> what extent should we sniff and is the citizenry comfortable i think we
> might need a national survey on this, CCK can do this.
>
> Best Regards
>
>
> On Wed, Oct 17, 2012 at 2:59 PM, Alex Comninos <alex.comninos@gmail.com>
> wrote:
>>
>> @Barrack
>> I would propose that as a law enforcer in a functioning democracy with
>> respect for human rights, even when enforcing the law against hate
>> speech, I would not be above the law. Especially the supreme law of
>> the land (the constitution). I would have a very tough task of
>> balancing the provisions in the constitution against hate speech with
>> the right to privacy enshrined in article 31 of the constitution which
>> includes the right for people not to have their person, home or
>> property searched; their possessions seized; information relating to
>> their family or private affairs unnecessarily required or revealed; or
>> the privacy of their communications infringed.
>>
>> As a law enforcer, beholden to the constitution, I may even have to
>> investigate cybercafes or other law enforcement agencies for breaching
>> the right to privacy installing keyloggers.
>>
>> Barrack if you were a law enforcer, what would you do?
>>
>> On 17 October 2012 13:48, Barrack Otieno <otieno.barrack@gmail.com> wrote:
>> > Assuming you were a law enforcer Alex what would you propose?
>> >
>> > Best Regards
>> >
>> >
>> > On Wed, Oct 17, 2012 at 2:40 PM, Alex Comninos <alex.comninos@gmail.com>
>> > wrote:
>> >>
>> >> @Kivuva
>> >>
>> >> I stongly agree with your concerns. I would not want all cybercafe
>> >> owners monitoring my communications, and I would be very afraid of the
>> >> circumstances.
>> >>
>> >> I also worry about the costs this would impose on cybercafes, which
>> >> would be transferred to the consumers as barriers to access when
>> >> cybercafes either increase their prices, or simply stop operating
>> >> because they cannot deal with the costs.
>> >>
>> >> Furthermore alot of cybercafes operate in the informal economy, they
>> >> need to be integrated into the formal economy before this happens.
>> >> Demanding they install surveillance equipment would disincentivise
>> >> them to embark on such a process.
>> >>
>> >> Crime and hate speech are a big problem, but it cannot be solved
>> >> without a vast array of negative consequences by requiring
>> >> intermediaries to act as policeman.
>> >>
>> >> In the history of the postal service in most countries other than
>> >> totalitarian states, the post office (pre-information society
>> >> intermediaries) where never required to open every letter sent to
>> >> check it did not contain hate speech or planning of crimes. Imagine
>> >> the outrage. Would anyone on this list like to see the post-office
>> >> reading all their letters?
>> >>
>> >> On 17 October 2012 13:16, Kivuva <Kivuva@transworldafrica.com> wrote:
>> >> > It seems we are entering the age of hyper-surveillance and
>> >> > monitoring.
>> >> > Personal freedom and space should be protected as we try to find a
>> >> > balance between prosecuting hate speech offenders and monitor peoples
>> >> > day to day lives. When NCIS says it will work with cyber cafes to
>> >> > curb
>> >> > vices, all I see is key-loggers installed in those workstations to
>> >> > track what patrons are doing. I acknowledge that the safety of the
>> >> > nation is important, but I fear what other uses such private
>> >> > information may have, especially if it falls in the wrong hands!
>> >> >
>> >> > On 17/10/2012, Grace Githaiga <ggithaiga@hotmail.com> wrote:
>> >> >>
>> >> >> Thanks Ali, Barrack and Jaco. The message is clear: the education
>> >> >> system as
>> >> >> well as intermediaries have a role in educating users of their
>> >> >> responsibility
>> >> >> online.
>> >> >>
>> >> >>
>> >> >>
>> >> >> Listers, please feel free to
>> >> >> continue the debate under the thread of Hate
>> >> >> text messages/KICA Section 29.
>> >> >>
>> >> >>
>> >> >>
>> >> >> Today, we focus our attention to prosecution
>> >> >> of online hate speech. The NCIC has threatened to prosecute online
>> >> >> hate
>> >> >> speech as political campaigns intensify ahead of the 2013 March
>> >> >> general
>> >> >> elections. The Chair of NCIS was quoted in
>> >> >> yesterday’s Daily Nation as saying that his Commission is working
>> >> >> with
>> >> >> cyber
>> >> >> cafes to monitor hate speech.
>> >> >>
>> >> >>
>> >> >>
>> >> >> There seems to be uncertainty on what offences may happen on
>> >> >> communication networks and whether intermediaries would be liable or
>> >> >> not.
>> >> >> Such
>> >> >> intermediaries as Safaricom have come up with rules that will be
>> >> >> applied
>> >> >> for
>> >> >> political advertising on its network; while Nation Media has NMG
>> >> >> blog
>> >> >> rules
>> >> >> (see
>> >> >> http://www.nation.co.ke/meta/-/1194/1132038/-/88lbspz/-/index.html).
>> >> >> NMG is
>> >> >> cautious in particular after being sued
>> >> >> for comments made by a reader on its blog on a story about Uhuru
>> >> >> Kenyatta.
>> >> >>
>> >> >>
>> >> >>
>> >> >> Is it advisable for these intermediaries to take caution or
>> >> >> encourage
>> >> >> self regulation or what should they do?
>> >> >> How successful do you think the NCIC will be in prosecuting online
>> >> >> hate
>> >> >> speech?
>> >> >>
>> >> >>
>> >> >> Over to you Listers.RgdsGG
>> >> >>
>> >> >>
>> >> >>
>> >> >>
>> >> >> Subject: RE: [kictanet] Hate text messages/KICA Section 29
>> >> >> Date: Tue, 16 Oct 2012 15:20:46 +0200
>> >> >> From: j.dutoit@unesco.org
>> >> >> To: ggithaiga@hotmail.com
>> >> >> CC: kictanet@lists.kictanet.or.ke; isoc@orion.my.co.ke
>> >> >>
>> >> >> Dear Grace, The education system definitely has a role to play in
>> >> >> media
>> >> >> and
>> >> >> information literacy, but I would argue that it is also in the
>> >> >> interest
>> >> >> of
>> >> >> the intermediaries to get involved in such education initiatives.
>> >> >> Best
>> >> >> regardsJaco -------------------------------------------------Jaco DU
>> >> >> TOITAdviser for Communication & InformationUNESCO Regional Office
>> >> >> for
>> >> >> Eastern AfricaUnited Nations Avenue, UNON, Gigiri (Room C-104) P.O.
>> >> >> Box
>> >> >> 30592-00100, Nairobi, Kenya Tel: +254 (0)20 762 2346/2566 Fax +254
>> >> >> (0)20 762
>> >> >> 2750 Mobile: +254 (0)728 610 912 Email:j.dutoit@unesco.org,
>> >> >> Website: http://www.unesco-nairobi.org From: kictanet
>> >> >> [mailto:kictanet-bounces+j.dutoit=unesco.org@lists.kictanet.or.ke]
>> >> >> On
>> >> >> Behalf
>> >> >> Of Grace Githaiga
>> >> >> Sent: Tuesday, 16 October, 2012 3:57 PM
>> >> >> To: Du Toit, Jaco
>> >> >> Cc: kictanet@lists.kictanet.or.ke; isoc@orion.my.co.ke
>> >> >> Subject: Re: [kictanet] Hate text messages/KICA Section 29 Thanks
>> >> >> Barrack,
>> >> >> Jaco and Kariuki for your views. Jaco, we note your point on the
>> >> >> need
>> >> >> for
>> >> >> users to take responsibility on what they post and the need for
>> >> >> information
>> >> >> and media literacy for users. Barrack is of the same opinion that
>> >> >> there
>> >> >> is
>> >> >> need for an education of users on their responsibility online. If I
>> >> >> may
>> >> >> ask
>> >> >> both of you, who would be responsible for conducting this sort of
>> >> >> education?
>> >> >> Kariuki, you make a very good point about what may have informed the
>> >> >> introduction section 29 of KICA namely the facsimile. Considering
>> >> >> that
>> >> >> technology has evolved and the internet is no longer in infancy,
>> >> >> what
>> >> >> would
>> >> >> you recommend for this section? Listers, lets here more input from
>> >> >> you.
>> >> >> RgdsGraceDate: Tue, 16 Oct 2012 09:47:13 +0300
>> >> >> From: otieno.barrack@gmail.com
>> >> >> Subject: Re: [kictanet] Hate text messages/KICA Section 29
>> >> >> CC: kictanet@lists.kictanet.or.ke; isoc@orion.my.co.ke
>> >> >> To: ggithaiga@hotmail.com
>> >> >>
>> >> >> GG,
>> >> >>
>> >> >> Intermediaries are liable to a certain extent, when a computer
>> >> >> broadcasts
>> >> >> spam, its IP address is blacklisted and users might not be able to
>> >> >> use
>> >> >> it to
>> >> >> send mail until corrective measures are taken. I beleive this is
>> >> >> meant
>> >> >> to
>> >> >> ensure that the Intermediary is responsible for the content
>> >> >> emanating
>> >> >> from
>> >> >> the network? if this is the case, why shouldn't the government which
>> >> >> has a
>> >> >> responsibility over the safety and security of every citizen not
>> >> >> take
>> >> >> the
>> >> >> intermediary to court to produce the the real culprit? Imagine what
>> >> >> would
>> >> >> have happened in the the recent case when a child was kidnapped from
>> >> >> a
>> >> >> City
>> >> >> Church if the Intermediary had not been of assistance to the state
>> >> >> agencies,
>> >> >> now that the populace understands the value of the Internet we
>> >> >> should
>> >> >> start
>> >> >> educating them about their rights responsibility on the net same
>> >> >> case
>> >> >> applies to the Intermediaries, if this issues are not enshrined in
>> >> >> the
>> >> >> law
>> >> >> it will be total chaos (looking at it from a government perspective)
>> >> >>
>> >> >> Best RegardsOn Tue, Oct 16, 2012 at 8:58 AM, John Kariuki
>> >> >> <ngethe.kariuki2007@yahoo.co.uk> wrote:Grace,Listers,Section 29 of
>> >> >> KICA
>> >> >> was
>> >> >> first introduced in Kenya law in 1998 at the infancy of the Internet
>> >> >> in
>> >> >> Kenya and was based mainly on experience of Facsimile.It was, in my
>> >> >> view, at
>> >> >> that time not intended for intermediaries.However,if today a smart
>> >> >> lawyer
>> >> >> can adduce pursuasive evidence in court that indeed the intermediary
>> >> >> was
>> >> >> actually the 'sender' not mere 'carrier', I see no reason why he
>> >> >> may
>> >> >> not
>> >> >> secure a conviction based on KICA section 29. John Kariuki. From:
>> >> >> Grace
>> >> >> Githaiga <ggithaiga@hotmail.com>
>> >> >> To: ngethe.kariuki2007@yahoo.co.uk
>> >> >> Cc: KICTAnet ICT Policy Discussions <kictanet@lists.kictanet.or.ke>
>> >> >> Sent: Tuesday, 16 October 2012, 1:02
>> >> >> Subject: [kictanet] Hate text messages/KICA Section 29 Good morning
>> >> >> Listers
>> >> >> I would like to thank Jane, Barrack and Topista for views expressed
>> >> >> on
>> >> >> yesterday's topic Shooting the messenger. They did express the need
>> >> >> to
>> >> >> place
>> >> >> some level of responsibility on both the source of the content and
>> >> >> the
>> >> >> host
>> >> >> platform. Further they underscored the need to have a good
>> >> >> information
>> >> >> system that operates under a sound policy framework if it is to be
>> >> >> useful to
>> >> >> society. Today we look at Section 29 of the KICA (improper use of
>> >> >> system)
>> >> >>
>> >> >>
>> >> >> http://www.cck.go.ke/regulations/downloads/KenyaInformation-Communications-Act-Final.pdf
>> >> >> that is increasingly being used as a basis for criminal charges for
>> >> >> users of
>> >> >> technology based platforms. See example:
>> >> >> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9q7VmsYNsqE 29. A person who by
>> >> >> means
>> >> >> of a
>> >> >> licensed telecommunication system— (a) sends a message or other
>> >> >> matter
>> >> >> that
>> >> >> is grossly offensive or of an indecent, obscene or menacing
>> >> >> character;
>> >> >> or
>> >> >> (b) sends a message that he knows t
>> >> >> o be false for the purpose of causing annoyance, inconvenience or
>> >> >> needless
>> >> >> anxiety to another person commits an offence and shall be liable on
>> >> >> conviction to a fine not exceeding fifty thousand shillings, or to
>> >> >> imprisonment for a term not exceeding three months, or to both.
>> >> >> Could
>> >> >> misuse of an information system also be used to charge
>> >> >> intermediaries?
>> >> >> Would
>> >> >> this call for the training of the Kenya Police, DPP and Judiciary so
>> >> >> that
>> >> >> they understand the issues as they litigate and make rulings?
>> >> >> Listers,
>> >> >> lets
>> >> >> hear your views. Further, please feel free to go back to yesterday's
>> >> >> thread
>> >> >> on shooting the messenger if you would like to contribute. Have a
>> >> >> wonderful
>> >> >> day RgdsGG _______________________________________________
>> >> >> kictanet mailing list
>> >> >> kictanet@lists.kictanet.or.ke
>> >> >> https://lists.kictanet.or.ke/mailman/listinfo/kictanet
>> >> >>
>> >> >> Unsubscribe or change your options at
>> >> >>
>> >> >>
>> >> >> https://lists.kictanet.or.ke/mailman/options/kictanet/ngethe.kariuki2007%40yahoo.co.uk
>> >> >>
>> >> >> The Kenya ICT Action Network (KICTANet) is a multi-stakeholder
>> >> >> platform
>> >> >> for
>> >> >> people and institutions interested and involved in ICT policy and
>> >> >> regulation. The network aims to act as a catalyst for reform in the
>> >> >> ICT
>> >> >> sector in support of the national aim of ICT enabled growth and
>> >> >> development.
>> >> >>
>> >> >> KICTANetiquette : Adhere to the same standards of acceptable
>> >> >> behaviors
>> >> >> online that you follow in real life: respect people's times and
>> >> >> bandwidth,
>> >> >> share knowledge, don't flame or abuse or personalize, respect
>> >> >> privacy,
>> >> >> do
>> >> >> not spam, do not market your wares or qualifications.
>> >> >> _______________________________________________
>> >> >> kictanet mailing list
>> >> >> kictanet@lists.kictanet.or.ke
>> >> >> https://lists.kictanet.or.ke/mailman/listinfo/kictanet
>> >> >>
>> >> >> Unsubscribe or change your options at
>> >> >>
>> >> >>
>> >> >> https://lists.kictanet.or.ke/mailman/options/kictanet/otieno.barrack%40gmail.com
>> >> >>
>> >> >> The Kenya ICT Action Network (KICTANet) is a multi-stakeholder
>> >> >> platform
>> >> >> for
>> >> >> people and institutions interested and involved in ICT policy and
>> >> >> regulation. The network aims to act as a catalyst for reform in the
>> >> >> ICT
>> >> >> sector in support of the national aim of ICT enabled growth and
>> >> >> development.
>> >> >>
>> >> >> KICTANetiquette : Adhere to the same standards of acceptable
>> >> >> behaviors
>> >> >> online that you follow in real life: respect people's times and
>> >> >> bandwidth,
>> >> >> share knowledge, don't flame or abuse or personalize, respect
>> >> >> privacy,
>> >> >> do
>> >> >> not spam, do not market your wares or qualifications.
>> >> >>
>> >> >> --
>> >> >> Barrack O. Otieno+254721325277 +254-20-2498789
>> >> >> Skype: barrack.otienohttp://www.otienobarrack.me.ke/
>> >> >>
>> >> >> _______________________________________________ kictanet mailing
>> >> >> list
>> >> >> kictanet@lists.kictanet.or.ke
>> >> >> https://lists.kictanet.or.ke/mailman/listinfo/kictanet Unsubscribe
>> >> >> or
>> >> >> change
>> >> >> your options at
>> >> >>
>> >> >>
>> >> >> https://lists.kictanet.or.ke/mailman/options/kictanet/ggithaiga%40hotmail.com
>> >> >> The Kenya ICT Action Network (KICTANet) is a multi-stakeholder
>> >> >> platform
>> >> >> for
>> >> >> people and institutions interested and involved in ICT policy and
>> >> >> regulation. The network aims to act as a catalyst for reform in the
>> >> >> ICT
>> >> >> sector in support of the national aim of ICT enabled growth and
>> >> >> development.
>> >> >> KICTANetiquette : Adhere to the same standards of acceptable
>> >> >> behaviors
>> >> >> online that you follow in real life: respect people's times and
>> >> >> bandwidth,
>> >> >> share knowledge, don't flame or abuse or personalize, respect
>> >> >> privacy,
>> >> >> do
>> >> >> not spam, do not market your wares or qualifications.
>> >> >
>> >> >
>> >> > --
>> >> > ______________________
>> >> > Mwendwa Kivuva
>> >> > For
>> >> > Business Development
>> >> > Transworld Computer Channels
>> >> > Cel: 0722402248
>> >> > twitter.com/lordmwesh
>> >> > transworldAfrica.com | Fluent in computing
>> >> > kenya.or.ke | The Kenya we know
>> >> >
>> >> > _______________________________________________
>> >> > kictanet mailing list
>> >> > kictanet@lists.kictanet.or.ke
>> >> > https://lists.kictanet.or.ke/mailman/listinfo/kictanet
>> >> >
>> >> > Unsubscribe or change your options at
>> >> >
>> >> > https://lists.kictanet.or.ke/mailman/options/kictanet/alex.comninos%40gmail.com
>> >> >
>> >> > The Kenya ICT Action Network (KICTANet) is a multi-stakeholder
>> >> > platform
>> >> > for people and institutions interested and involved in ICT policy and
>> >> > regulation. The network aims to act as a catalyst for reform in the
>> >> > ICT
>> >> > sector in support of the national aim of ICT enabled growth and
>> >> > development.
>> >> >
>> >> > KICTANetiquette : Adhere to the same standards of acceptable
>> >> > behaviors
>> >> > online that you follow in real life: respect people's times and
>> >> > bandwidth,
>> >> > share knowledge, don't flame or abuse or personalize, respect
>> >> > privacy, do
>> >> > not spam, do not market your wares or qualifications.
>> >>
>> >> _______________________________________________
>> >> kictanet mailing list
>> >> kictanet@lists.kictanet.or.ke
>> >> https://lists.kictanet.or.ke/mailman/listinfo/kictanet
>> >>
>> >> Unsubscribe or change your options at
>> >>
>> >> https://lists.kictanet.or.ke/mailman/options/kictanet/otieno.barrack%40gmail.com
>> >>
>> >> The Kenya ICT Action Network (KICTANet) is a multi-stakeholder platform
>> >> for people and institutions interested and involved in ICT policy and
>> >> regulation. The network aims to act as a catalyst for reform in the ICT
>> >> sector in support of the national aim of ICT enabled growth and
>> >> development.
>> >>
>> >> KICTANetiquette : Adhere to the same standards of acceptable behaviors
>> >> online that you follow in real life: respect people's times and
>> >> bandwidth,
>> >> share knowledge, don't flame or abuse or personalize, respect privacy,
>> >> do
>> >> not spam, do not market your wares or qualifications.
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> > --
>> > Barrack O. Otieno
>> > +254721325277
>> > +254-20-2498789
>> > Skype: barrack.otieno
>> > http://www.otienobarrack.me.ke/
>> >
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> kictanet mailing list
>> kictanet@lists.kictanet.or.ke
>> https://lists.kictanet.or.ke/mailman/listinfo/kictanet
>>
>> Unsubscribe or change your options at
>> https://lists.kictanet.or.ke/mailman/options/kictanet/otieno.barrack%40gmail.com
>>
>> The Kenya ICT Action Network (KICTANet) is a multi-stakeholder platform
>> for people and institutions interested and involved in ICT policy and
>> regulation. The network aims to act as a catalyst for reform in the ICT
>> sector in support of the national aim of ICT enabled growth and development.
>>
>> KICTANetiquette : Adhere to the same standards of acceptable behaviors
>> online that you follow in real life: respect people's times and bandwidth,
>> share knowledge, don't flame or abuse or personalize, respect privacy, do
>> not spam, do not market your wares or qualifications.
>
>
>
>
> --
> Barrack O. Otieno
> +254721325277
> +254-20-2498789
> Skype: barrack.otieno
> http://www.otienobarrack.me.ke/
>