> Wainana,
>
> The media, and not only Media Owners Associations, but editors,
> journalists, TV and Radio anchors and producers, have always been ready
> for dialogue and honest one at that. We don't know your criteria for the
> so-called "well-thought out" memorandum, but we can assure that we had
> prepared many documents, which we presented to the minister, PS and PM. We
> will revisit them and prepare something and hopefully it will "well-though
> and devoid of propoganda".
>
> Aduda
>> ----------
>> From: kictanet-bounces+daduda=
nation.co.ke@
lists.kictanet.or.ke on
>> behalf of Wainaina Mungai
>> Sent: Wednesday, January 7, 2009 10:52 PM
>> To: David Aduda
>> Cc: KICTAnet ICT Policy Discussions
>> Subject: Re: [kictanet] Kibaki signs Bill into law
>>
>> The Presidential directive to Hon. Poghisio & Hon. Amos Wako has set
>> the pace for a new engagement strategy. Let's hope it brings to an end
>> the "drama queen" strategy used by media owners so far.
>>
>> The media owners will need to present well thought-out memoranda
>> devoid of propanganda. I hope they are ready to engage in the same way
>> as the ICT sector did.
>>
>> The proposals by media owners must be subjected to objective debate in
>> the longterm interests of the nation.
>>
>> Wainaina
>>
>> On 1/7/09, Wainaina Mungai <
wainaina@madeinkenya.org> wrote:
>> > It sounds like Tanzania has a very objective Media Council.
>> >
>> > They recognise that the law is abit too tough but they believe the
>> > Kenyan media brought it upon themselves when they failed to
>> > self-regulate.
>> >
>> > Through the one-sided campaign, it is clear that the media has no
>> > intention to implement true self-regulation. Individual media houses
>> > are now setting standards and walking away from the biased "group
>> > mind" approach to issues.
>> >
>> > Let's hope that Kenya's Media Council will learn from Tanzanians.
>> >
>> > Wainaina
>> >
>> > On 1/7/09, Jotham Kilimo Mwale <
jokilimo@yahoo.com> wrote:
>> >> Hi All,
>> >>
>> >> Just came across this view of our Act from Media Council of Tanzania.
>> >>
>> >>
http://www.dailynews.habarileo.co.tz/magazine/index.php?id=9330
>> >>
>> >> Interesting.
>> >>
>> >> Regards,
>> >>
>> >> Jotham K. Mwale
>> >>
>> >>
>> >> --- On Tue, 1/6/09, Akich Kwach <
kwach@archway-productions.com>
>> wrote:
>> >>
>> >> From: Akich Kwach <
kwach@archway-productions.com>
>> >> Subject: Re: [kictanet] Kibaki signs Bill into law
>> >> To:
jokilimo@yahoo.com>> >> Cc: "KICTAnet ICT Policy Discussions" <
kictanet@lists.kictanet.or.ke>
>> >> Date: Tuesday, January 6, 2009, 1:14 AM
>> >>
>> >> Hi All,
>> >>
>> >> I think it is time time we stopped blaiming our brother and sisters
>> from
>> >> the
>> >> media. It is said that if you were in their shoes, you would be
>> shouting
>> >> loudest
>> >> like them. I believe they have a point and I do agree with Dorcas
>> >> Muthoni,
>> >> the
>> >> style or approach by the media team might be the problem. As they
>> seek
>> >> for
>> >> freedom, they have to be visionery. I am reminded of the wise advice
>> by
>> >> Lyndon
>> >> Johnson, a former US president "You do not examine legislation in
>> the
>> >> light of the benefits it will convey if properly administered, but in
>> the
>> >> light
>> >> of the wrongs it would do and the harms it would cause if improperly
>> >> administered."
>> >>
>> >> To set the records straight, I do support the signing of the Bill and
>> the
>> >> rest
>> >> of the amendments can be lobbied for later. It is sad the Wanjikus,
>> >> Atienos
>> >> and
>> >> Moraas outside Nairobi would find it difficult to know the benefits
>> the
>> >> new
>> >> law
>> >> carries because the same media that should have passed the message is
>> >> still
>> >> in a
>> >> "mourning period". How can we help spread the message?
>> >>
>> >> I look forward to the discussions as stated by Walu
>> >>
>> >> Akich Kwach
>> >>
>> >> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Barrack Otieno"
>> >> <
otieno.barrack@gmail.com>
>> >> To: <
kwach@archway-productions.com>
>> >> Cc: "KICTAnet ICT Policy Discussions">
>> >> <
kictanet@lists.kictanet.or.ke>
>> >> Sent: Monday, January 05, 2009 10:29 PM
>> >> Subject: Re: [kictanet] Kibaki signs Bill into law
>> >>
>> >>
>> >> You have a point David, this convergence business is a bit confusing
>> >> to the waheshimiwa as well as a good number of Kenyans, i bet eighty
>> >> percent might no understand what is going on, Alex you seem to be
>> >> having some answers though your answers are too complicated :)
>> >> Let the debate continue
>> >>
>> >> On Mon, Jan 5, 2009 at 9:14 PM, <
dmakali@yahoo.com> wrote:
>> >>> Barrack, I don't see our pt of diff. Media are the first users of
>> ict
>> >> and thea is no doubt ict is imptant in a modern ecoomy. But that's
>> it.
>> >> So
>> >> is freedom of speech and access to information.
>> >>> And we don't have to compare media and ict. What I state and repeat
>> is
>> >> the tendency by ict buffs to think only ict in isolation or see
>> nothing
>> >> wrong
>> >> else with the aw as long as their concerns are taken care of, then
>> say
>> >> dismissively that there are other iinstitutions to deal with their
>> >> legitimate
>> >> concerns or reason should prevail. Which? How come ict folks are not
>> >> raising
>> >> their voices on thoz issues they acknowledge media have except as btw
>> or
>> >> in
>> >> a
>> >> back handed manner? Am very awake to the fact the country desperately
>> >> needed
>> >> to
>> >> kick up the ict sector with facilitative legislation. I have
>> personally
>> >> suffered
>> >> from its lacking. But we can't gloss over fundamental issues out of
>> that
>> >> desperation!
>> >>> China has all the ict you want but wat kind of society is it. You
>> >> can't enjoy ict in a repressive environment. And this country is in
>> the
>> >> cusp
>> >> of potential tyranny midwifed by our unresolved political equations
>> that
>> >> we
>> >> are
>> >> just about to begin to resolve. If any political axis should be
>> handed
>> >> control
>> >> over the media, even with its weaknesses, you will rue the day you
>> >> dismissed
>> >> our
>> >> protestations.
>> >>> I have written too much and may be I feel too strongly about this
>> but no
>> >> emotions. Straight shooting perhaps.
>> >>> David
>> >>>
>> >>> Sent from my BlackBerry(R) wireless device
>> >>>
>> >>> -----Original Message-----
>> >>> From: "Barrack Otieno" <
otieno.barrack@gmail.com>
>> >>>
>> >>> Date: Mon, 5 Jan 2009 20:36:51
>> >>> To: <
dmakali@yahoo.com>
>> >>> Cc: KICTAnet ICT Policy Discussions<
kictanet@lists.kictanet.or.ke>
>> >>> Subject: Re: [kictanet] Kibaki signs Bill into law
>> >>>
>> >>>
>> >>> Bwana Makali,
>> >>> I think you are being sensational, lets try and get emotions out of
>> >>> this argument, for as long as i can remember media practioners have
>> >>> always rubbished the role of ICT in the countries socio-political
>> >>> landscape, i witnessed this behaviour in a forum sponsored by Unesco
>> >>> at the Grand Regency a couple of years ago which was apparently
>> >>> chaired by CEO's from leading media houses and i can see bwana
>> makali
>> >>> repeating it on this list which is unaccepatble here even though we
>> >>> are democratic!!, give us a break sir. None the less may be we need
>> >>> our own ministry as Dr Siganga says to champion the ICT agenda and
>> >>> save us from this circus. The Media has a point and we all agree
>> that
>> >>> there are contentious issues that need to be sorted out however let
>> >>> reason prevail, we have instituions in place to handle this kind of
>> >>> problems and they need to be put into use
>> >>>
>> >>> On Mon, Jan 5, 2009 at 6:59 PM, <
dmakali@yahoo.com> wrote:
>> >>>> The media's ref to the comm amendm bill 2008 (yuck!) as media or
>> >> ict bill is attributable to two factors. The media have a right and
>> an
>> >> editorial
>> >> licence to abbreviate long and cumbersome names. Do you guys know how
>> >> difficult
>> >> it is to write headlines? Write one to test your editorial skills -
>> 25
>> >> letters
>> >> across 40cms and include all that communications bla bla!?>
>> >>>> Second, the media have a right to christen anything for ease of
>> >> reference. Why aren't you media phobes complaining about ndungu,
>> waki,
>> >> kriegler or whatever other commissions that don't exist in fact and
>> which
>> >> you have quite happily swallowed? wats wrong with the media or ict or
>> >> (next)
>> >> postal bill if it captures the essence of what is on the table or
>> >> disputed?
>> >> I
>> >> find it trite argument to insist that the media have misrepresented
>> the
>> >> bill. If
>> >> there is nothing contestable about the others, or they are less
>> >> controversial or
>> >> for whatever reason they dim in significance, what is the big deal?
>> >>>> Finally, of course, some media could just have failed to see the
>> >> bigger picture and erroneously referred to it as media bill. In which
>> >> case
>> >> that
>> >> all fair in war and love. You can't moan till morning.
>> >>>> Let's face the facts. The law has bad provisions that only myopic
>> >> and selfish people or those with axes to grind the media can't see.
>> >> Unfortunately, it takes a very short time before the reality catches
>> up
>> >> with
>> >> such people wen they find themselves on the receiving end.
>> >>>> Jog your memory.
>> >>>> David
>> >>>> Sent from my BlackBerry(R) wireless device
>> >>>>
>> >>>> -----Original Message-----
>> >>>> From: "waudo siganga" <
emailsignet@mailcan.com>
>> >>>>
>> >>>> Date: Mon, 05 Jan 2009 18:35:00
>> >>>> To: <
dmakali@yahoo.com>
>> >>>> Cc: KICTAnet ICT Policy
>> >> Discussions<
kictanet@lists.kictanet.or.ke>
>> >>>> Subject: Re: [kictanet] Kibaki signs Bill into law
>> >>>>
>> >>>>
>> >>>> Thanks for noting the changing goal posts in terms of the title of
>> >> this
>> >>>> Law Alice. In fact a short while ago some referred to it as the
>> >> "ICT
>> >>>> Bill" before briefly reverting to Kenya Communications
>> >> (Amendment) Bill
>> >>>> 2008 and then finally resting at "Media Bill". For me I
>> >> think I
>> >>>> understand the reasons for this confusion, particularly for the
>> >> public:
>> >>>> this is a compound Law in one basket. The lesson I learn is that in
>> >>>> future we need to change some things otherwise it is possible to
>> reach
>> >> a
>> >>>> stage where useful ICT Policy, Legislative and regulatory
>> development
>> >>>> processes are held back by things that really have nothing to do
>> with
>> >>>> ICT. What if the courier services who are now regulated by this Law
>> >> had
>> >>>> successfully opposed it? We would be missing e-transactions
>> >> legislation
>> >>>> simply because of a function that has nothing to do with ICT.
>> >>>> For starters, the Government should restructure so that we have an
>> ICT
>> >>>> only Ministry like they have in India, Egypt, Mauritius and other
>> >>>> countries worth copying. For many years after independence we had a
>> >>>> Ministry of Information and Broadcasting. That Minstry should be
>> >> revived
>> >>>> to focus on the interests of our media brothers.
>> >>>> Right now it is very difficult to pin down what is "ICT" in
>> >> Kenya. Some
>> >>>> of the issues being brought under the umbrella of "ICT" are
>> >> those that
>> >>>> the real ICT people cannot contribute to. Some people are saying
>> >>>> everything is OK because of "convergence". But as can be
>> >> seen, even
>> >>>> trying to converge Laws is an issue unto itself.
>> >>>>
>> >>>> Waudo
>> >>>> On Mon, 05 Jan 2009 17:47:32 +0300, "alice"
>> >> <
alice@apc.org> said:
>> >>>>> I agree and for Pete's/Jane's sake could media drop the
>> >> "media bill"
>> >>>>> reference. It is the Kenya Communications (Amendment) bill 2008,
>> >> which
>> >>>>> covers much much more than broadcasting issues. and much more
>> >>>>> importantly it finally deals with issues of convergence from a
>> >>>>> technological, content, regulatory, as well as economic
>> >> perspective. it
>> >>>>> is important that the communications "sector" adapts to
>> >> this global
>> >>>>> convergence trend/scenario, because it will provide for expansion>
>> >> of
>> >>>>> universal access to ICTs, in terms of reducing costs while
>> >> stimulating
>> >>>>> economic and social growth. This can only be done through
>> >> appropriate
>> >>>>> ICT policy and regulatory mechanisms, which the bill provides for.
>> >>>>>
>> >>>>> What we should be focusing on are the challenges that will come
>> >> with
>> >>>>> this dynamic because adaption to convergence is not the end point.
>> >>>>>
>> >>>>>
>> >>>>>
>> >>>>> best
>> >>>>> alice
>> >>>>>
>> >>>>> p.s. views are personal and not a reflection of any of the
>> >>>>> institutions/organisations I am affiliated with.
>> >>>>>
>> >>>>> > Great suggestions,
>> >>>>> >
>> >>>>> > I feel we can support the media but not in-toto.
>> >>>>> >
>> >>>>> > First, it would be nice of the MoA et. al. to let go of the
>> >> negative
>> >>>>> > "Media Bill" campaign and engage constructively
>> >> with other players.
>> >>>>> >
>> >>>>> > Secondly, media should consider calling ICT advocacy
>> >> personalities to
>> >>>>> > a forum where they can share how ICT issues have successfully
>> >> been
>> >>>>> > incorporated without the animosity that is common when
>> >> advocating for
>> >>>>> > media issues.
>> >>>>> >
>> >>>>> > I believe the media needs to feel secure that if their
>> >> arguments are
>> >>>>> > valid, they'll have our undivided support....issue by
>> >> issue.
>> >>>>> >
>> >>>>> > Wainaina
>> >>>>> >
>> >>>>> > On 1/4/09, Bill Kagai <
billkagai@gmail.com> wrote:
>> >>>>> >
>> >>>>> >> The 4 fundamentals;
>> >>>>> >>
>> >>>>> >> 1. When the Media fraternity suggested the bill be
>> >> rejected in-toto, >> ICT
>> >>>>> >> sector players felt this was akin to pouring the birth
>> >> water together >> with
>> >>>>> >> the baby. Personally I am happy the ICT issues did not go
>> >> down the >> drain.
>> >>>>> >> And I think that was what many of us were asking for.
>> >>>>> >>
>> >>>>> >> 2. The Media has genuine concerns as Haron Ndubi
>> >> articulated in his >> legal
>> >>>>> >> opinion on the probibity of the bill. However, the Media
>> >> completely >> blacked
>> >>>>> >> out ICT sector concerns during our campaign to have the
>> >> bill signed. >> We even
>> >>>>> >> went out of the way to show the remedies to the issues
>> >> through the
>> >>>>> >> miscelleneous amendment bill as suggested in the very
>> >> fast legal >> opinion
>> >>>>> >> whose author requested we keep his/her identity
>> >> anonymous.
>> >>>>> >>
>> >>>>> >> 3. ICT players and especially Kictanet ought to prove
>> >> it's the bigger >> wo/man
>> >>>>> >> by showing solidarity in the front-line with our cousins
>> >> in the Media
>> >>>>> >> looking for a way out of the quagmire. We do not have to
>> >> ignore them >> simply
>> >>>>> >> because they refused to side with us in our campaign.
>> >>>>> >>
>> >>>>> >> 4. We are extremely careless in handling crisis. If you
>> >> are familiar >> with
>> >>>>> >> Newton's method of factoring variable change and the
>> >> Monty Hall
>> >>>>> >>
>> >> Paradox<
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Monty_Hall_paradox>,
>> >>>>> >> then we can analyse the options the President had
>> >> mathematically.
>> >>>>> >> 4a) Sign Bill
>> >>>>> >> 4b) Don't Sign Bill
>> >>>>> >> 4c) Do nothing and hold Kenyans in suspense.
>> >>>>> >>
>> >>>>> >> Each option had a 33% probability of being the
>> >> 'right' decision. So,
>> >>>>> >> assuming he had not seen the bill earlier since he was
>> >> not the author >> and
>> >>>>> >> had decided not to sign the bill following the Media
>> >> owners petition, >> was it
>> >>>>> >> wise to change his decision from 'Don't Sign'
>> >> to 'Sign'??
>> >>>>> >> Monty Hall
>> >> <
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Monty_Hall_paradox> proves >> that
>> >>>>> >> changing the decision increases the probability of
>> >> getting it 'right' >> to
>> >>>>> >> 66.6%. And that is proven by the fact that we [in ICT]
>> >> feel content >> and
>> >>>>> >> support ways of also making our brothers in the media
>> >> achieve 'State >> of
>> >>>>> >> Nirvana'. This bill will also give the Minister of>
>> >> Finance some >> head-up
>> >>>>> >> before he dismisses innovations such as M-Pesa without
>> >> prior >> knowledge.
>> >>>>> >>
>> >>>>> >> Conclusion;
>> >>>>> >> For Makali, Openda, Kaikai and other leading Media
>> >> personalities who >> I know
>> >>>>> >> are on this list, why don't you invite ICT
>> >> stakeholders in to your >> media
>> >>>>> >> stations to engage Kenyans on what is good and what is
>> >> bad in the ICT >> [not
>> >>>>> >> Media] bill so that we can fight together against what we
>> >> feel is not >> good??
>> >>>>> >> This has nothing to do with whether the grand coalition
>> >> will hold or >> not,
>> >>>>> >> since neither the Right Honourable nor His Excellency
>> >> drafted this >> bill. We
>> >>>>> >> did and the buck should stop with us!!!
>> >>>>> >>
>> >>>>> >> --
>> >>>>> >> Bildad Kagai
>> >>>>> >> MD - MediaCorp Limited
>> >>>>> >> Nairobi Stock Exchange Authorised Information Vendor
>> >>>>> >> Suite B2, Tetu Court, State House Avenue
>> >>>>> >> P. O. Box 20311 - 00200
>> >>>>> >> Nairobi, Kenya
>> >>>>> >> Tel. 254 20 272 8332
>> >>>>> >> Fax. Rendered Obsolete
>> >>>>> >> S - 1°17'13.8"
>> >>>>> >> E - 36°48'22.7"
>> >>>>> >>
www.mediacorp.co.ke
>> >>>>> >> ---
>> >>>>> >>
>> >>>>> >>
>> >>>>> >> On Sun, Jan 4, 2009 at 6:21 PM, alice
>> >> <
alice@apc.org> wrote:
>> >>>>> >>
>> >>>>> >>
>> >>>>> >>> Thank you Wainaina. Happy 2009.
>> >>>>> >>> Now that the bill has been signed, what does the ICT
>> >> industry think >>> about
>> >>>>> >>> this whole debate? especially those who have worked
>> >> for such a long >>> time
>> >>>>> >>> with government to introduce legislation for the
>> >> sector?
>> >>>>> >>>
>> >>>>> >>> best
>> >>>>> >>> alice
>> >>>>> >>>
>> >>>>> >>> Happy New Year for ICT development in Kenya.
>> >>>>> >>>
>> >>>>> >>>> We can now look at the Media's concerns on
>> >> the Kenya Communications
>> >>>>> >>>> Act and support whatever amendments may be
>> >> justified.
>> >>>>> >>>>
>> >>>>> >>>> Wainaina
>> >>>>> >>>>
>> >>>>> >>>>
>> >>>>> >>>>
>> >>>>> >>>>
>> >>>>> >>>
>> >>>>> >>>_______________________________________________
>> >>>>> >>> kictanet mailing list
>> >>>>> >>>
kictanet@lists.kictanet.or.ke
>> >>>>> >>>
http://lists.kictanet.or.ke/mailman/listinfo/kictanet>> >>>>> >>>
>> >>>>> >>> This message was sent to:
billkagai@gmail.com>> >>>>> >>> Unsubscribe or change your options at
>> >>>>> >>>
>> >>
http://lists.kictanet.or.ke/mailman/options/kictanet/billkagai%40gmail.com
>> >>>>> >>>
>> >>>>> >>>
>> >>>>> >
>> >>>>> >
>> >>>>>
>> >>>>>
>> >>>>>
>> >>>>> _______________________________________________
>> >>>>> kictanet mailing list
>> >>>>>
kictanet@lists.kictanet.or.ke
>> >>>>>
http://lists.kictanet.or.ke/mailman/listinfo/kictanet>> >>>>>
>> >>>>> This message was sent to:
emailsignet@mailcan.com
>> >>>>> Unsubscribe or change your options at
>> >>>>>
>> >>
http://lists.kictanet.or.ke/mailman/options/kictanet/emailsignet%40mailcan.com
>> >>>>
>> >>>> _______________________________________________
>> >>>> kictanet mailing list
>> >>>>
kictanet@lists.kictanet.or.ke
>> >>>>
http://lists.kictanet.or.ke/mailman/listinfo/kictanet>> >>>>
>> >>>> This message was sent to:
dmakali@yahoo.com
>> >>>> Unsubscribe or change your options at
>> >>
http://lists.kictanet.or.ke/mailman/options/kictanet/dmakali%40yahoo.com
>> >>>> _______________________________________________
>> >>>> kictanet mailing list
>> >>>>
kictanet@lists.kictanet.or.ke
>> >>>>
http://lists.kictanet.or.ke/mailman/listinfo/kictanet>> >>>>
>> >>>> This message was sent to:
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>> >>>> Unsubscribe or change your options at
>> >>
http://lists.kictanet.or.ke/mailman/options/kictanet/otieno.barrack%40gmail.com
>> >>>>
>> >>>
>> >>>
>> >>>
>> >>> --
>> >>> Barrack O. Otieno
>> >>> ISSEN CONSULTING
>> >>> Tel:
>> >>> +254721325277
>> >>> +254726544442
>> >>> +254733206359
>> >>>
www.issenconsult.com
>> >>>
http://projectdiscovery.or.ke>> >>> To give up the task of reforming society is to give up ones
>> >>> responsibility as a free man.
>> >>> Alan Paton, South Africa>
>> >>>
>> >>
>> >>
>> >>
>> >> -- Barrack O. Otieno
>> >> ISSEN CONSULTING
>> >> Tel:
>> >> +254721325277
>> >> +254726544442
>> >> +254733206359
>> >>
www.issenconsult.com
>> >>
http://projectdiscovery.or.ke>> >> To give up the task of reforming society is to give up ones
>> >> responsibility as a free man.
>> >> Alan Paton, South Africa
>> >>
>> >> _______________________________________________
>> >> kictanet mailing list
>> >>
kictanet@lists.kictanet.or.ke
>> >>
http://lists.kictanet.or.ke/mailman/listinfo/kictanet>> >>
>> >> This message was sent to:
kwach@archway-productions.com
>> >> Unsubscribe or change your options at
>> >>
http://lists.kictanet.or.ke/mailman/options/kictanet/kwach%40archway-productions.com
>> >>
>> >>
>> >> _______________________________________________
>> >> kictanet mailing list
>> >>
kictanet@lists.kictanet.or.ke
>> >>
http://lists.kictanet.or.ke/mailman/listinfo/kictanet>> >>
>> >> This message was sent to:
jokilimo@yahoo.com
>> >> Unsubscribe or change your options at
>> >>
http://lists.kictanet.or.ke/mailman/options/kictanet/jokilimo%40yahoo.com
>> >>
>> >>
>> >>
>> >>
>> >
>> > --
>> > Sent from my mobile device
>> >
>> > ---
>> >
http://www.bungesms.com
>> >
>> > TWITTER -
http://www.twitter.com/bungesms>> >
>> > KABISSA.org -
>> >
http://www.kabissa.org/about/news/member-spotlight-made-kenya-network
>> >
>> > KAMPALA Workshop presentation -
>> >
http://m4d.kcl.co.ug/sites/default/files/presentations/BungeSMS_MadeinKenyaNetwork.pdf
>> >
>>
>> --
>> Sent from my mobile device
>>
>> ---
>>
http://www.bungesms.com>>
>> TWITTER -
http://www.twitter.com/bungesms
>>
>> KABISSA.org -
>>
http://www.kabissa.org/about/news/member-spotlight-made-kenya-network>>
>> KAMPALA Workshop presentation -
>>
http://m4d.kcl.co.ug/sites/default/files/presentations/BungeSMS_MadeinKenyaNetwork.pdf
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> kictanet mailing list
>>
kictanet@lists.kictanet.or.ke>>
http://lists.kictanet.or.ke/mailman/listinfo/kictanet
>>
>> This message was sent to:
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>>
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>>
>>
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